Square Footage Discrepancy

Thanks for the note!
I heard about Toren's SQFT discrepancy is quite large, now I guess I have to check for all! @@

Granted I did not bring a tape measure to the open house, but I was shocked to see tiny living space after tiny living space vs. the square footage advertised at Third & Bond. Unlike other products (ie food labels, cigarettes,consumer products), surprising that this sort of false advertising has not come under more scrutiny.

I also encountered an A&H listing where the boss-broker tried to argue with me that outdoor space (balconies) counted as "livable" space in terms of comps on $$ per SQFT. Outrageous, and I decided then and there not to ever do business as buyer or seller with them again. I will accept that outdoor space comes at a premium, but counting outdoor space square footage when comparing comps? Give me a break.

my favorite is when a resale at a new condo is misrepresented - as if somehow the apartment magically altered from the offering plan.

but this is real estate - what do you expect from the fine, upstanding people who thrive in this business?

Totally agree John. It's outrageous that there is so little regulation of what is claimed by sellers. Apts. & Lofts is a particularly egregious offender. You need a mathematics degree to figure out what is going on with their floorplans and they still don't add up. As for resales differing from the offering plan, I've found offering plans that are grossly incorrect in stating the dimensions of the apartment. So you have lies on top of lies.

in brooklyn, robert nicoletti, elliman, is the biggest fraud.

900 sq ft and he's stating 1100 with the floorplan to boot
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/346172-coop-599-east-7th-street-kensington-brooklyn
1100 sq ft and he's stating 1300, also with floorplan
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/501428-coop-599-east-7th-street-kensington-brooklyn

from what i've seen, corcoran and elliman are some of the biggest culprits. the others are just following suit

For those in the know -- do appraisals have anything to do with this?

E.g., we bought a place with no listed square footage. The appraiser measured 760 indoor square feet, interior wall to interior wall. Our "comps," whose square footage sources were Streeteasy, Trulia, or Broker, had listed square footage in the 700-800 range, yet every one of the floorplans was considerably smaller than the unit we purchased. A couple of our "comps" that were claiming 750 s.f. were no more than 600 square feet even if you add up the dimensions of the floor plans.

Our place still appraised because I think we got a good deal, but most of the "comps" that were used are not true comps, IMO. 760 true, measured, interior wall to interior wall square feet is normally equivalent to 850-950 advertised square feet.

I believe that appraisers do not have to measure square footage, only cite a source for it. So if a realtor lists a property for its "true" square footage (or provides no square footage) in a market where everyone inflates, is s/he putting the property at risk to be appraised against lesser comps?

when my apartments were appraised, they measured. i had an experienced guy who used the roller measuring wheel that was very accurate. i asked him how there could be such discrepancies and his answer was "Lazer measures". On empty apartments they work better. when you add furniture, the lazer bounces and can give larger or smaller numbers. just before he came to my apartment, he appraised an apartment at 800 sf (don't remember exactly), the previous appraiser came in with 650.

when it comes to condos, they use the offering plan sq footage. in new developments, that is always inclusive of the common areas given to your apartment.

Till the time more buyers start to show up with laser meters and believe that square footage is an extremely important part of price, the price inflation with continue. There are unlikely to be any laws against square footage inflation as it would first require that there is a legal standard to measure the square footage. There does not seems to be any political will to push for such a standard.

"I heard about Toren's SQFT discrepancy is quite large, now I guess I have to check for all! @@"

I haven't always been Toren's biggest fan, but they are not the only ones who do this (and the actual dimensions on the floorplan are usually pretty close to the truth, the only differences being in the angled units).

My fiance and I always bring measuring tapes to see open houses or even rental apartments because we have yet to find a single place that is exactly what it says it is. The classic is when we saw 4 apartments in the same afternoon that were "750 sqft" and NONE of them were remotely the same size. We now price based on usable square feet and make our own comps. I would suggest others consider doing things this way as well because just about everyone lies about total size these days.

"There does not seems to be any political will to push for such a standard."

In other words, "no cop, no stop"

"ethics be damned"!

aia?

If i purchase a place that has inflated square foot measurements, I should be able to sue seller for discrepancy?! Yes?!

One of the issues I have is that the current system penalizes honest sellers. In some of the apartments we visited, they were as advertised.

So we have a REAL 800SF selling for 599K versus an advertised 850SF (REAL 600SF) selling for 550K. At $748 per SF, you are overpaying for the "cheaper" apartment by 100K. That is a lot of money. Furthermore, we pay maintenance based on SF and with inflated numbers you are being shafted for years in extra taxes and maintenance.

Up until I saw a post about SF this year, it didn't even occur to me that brokers were lying about the SF, I'm sure they sucker THOUSANDS of people like this every year. In Manhattan, with PSF near 1K, we are talking overstatements worth close to a quarter million dollars for the apartments we are looking at. I am so glad I saw the thread on StreetEasy because if we bought a place with an inflated SF, we could never in good conscience sell it with a fake SF number. At least now, we know what we are getting into and hopefully more people will see this thread and be aware of this problem.

OK, speak of the devil. Here we have an egregious example of SF inflation. I've been to the Rialto and been in 1D and was following up on it today. Lo and behold, they've updated the listing as being 1257 SF!!! They have some balls of steel, considering just yesterday, it was listed as 1009 SF! I'd like to see the seller talk their way around this one...

Goes from a great $500 PSF to over $700 PSF based on the REAL SF of 880 SF. That's an overstatement of SF of 42%!!!!

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/526463-condo-150-n-5th-st-williamsburg-brooklyn

http://www.thedevelopersgroup.com/apartments/apartment.aspx?webid=13560

Just say this and I will add my two cents. I went to two open houses this weekend and brought a measuring tape.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/510160-condo-171-north-7th-street-williamsburg-brooklyn

Listed as 950SF. Measured 690SF. Price per SF = $926

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/434954-condo-101-n-5th-st-williamsburg-brooklyn

Listed as 994SF. Measured as 700SF. Price per SF = $898

I lost my trust in listings this weekend. I pity the people buying those apartments who think they are getting a good price.

I hope you made a big production out of measuring the rooms, and announced loudly to everyone at the open house (most notably the agent) that the square footage was grossly overestimated.

Amen. We need more informed buyers in the market. I have no problem with sellers asking for $$$$ as long as buyers know what they are getting.

To be fair though, if you want to measure the sq footage of an apartment, measuring from the property line for the unit is a fair estimate of total square footage. This obviously excludes any common areas, such as hallways, lobbies, elevators, stairwells, etc. I would measure to the middle of any divising walls on the property line. Measuring only from wall to wall in each room and adding up is just as wrong. You overly penalize square footage that is built upon within a unit. lets say you have two units that are 1000 sq ft measured from the property line. All else equal, one has two beds and the other 1 bed. Using a wall to wall approach, the two bed would have less "usable" square footage because of the walls of the 2nd bedroom.

Special_K, that reasoning doesn't jive. I was in the Rialto and the real SF is 880. in their updated listing, they are selling it as a 1257 SF unit. Is that 400SF of wall you are paying for? Obviously the inflated number is not based on measuring wall thickness first of all. Second of all, you are not paying to live in a wall or have 10 foot thick walls running through your apartment.

Fairness is letting potential buyers know how much space they are getting. There is no way around that. There is no way to talk around that. When someone is selling based on size, size becomes an integral part of price. If I go to the store and buy my fiancee a 2 carat ring, it better be 2 carats +/- 5% or she would be pissed as hell. Not 2 carats +/- 50%. If you think that's fairness, I bet there are a millions of sellers who would love you.

All nice apartments and overstated sq ft didn't seem to matter since all went into contract, but here were some calculations I did during my search. Made an estimate based on the stated dimensions in the floorplan. Caveat emptor. Thoughts?
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/488761-coop-133-mercer-street-soho-new-york
Claim 1750 Guess 1265 (38%)
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/393361-coop-129-west-22nd-street-chelsea-new-york
Claim 2200 Guess: 1850 (19%)
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/367091-coop-130-east-18th-street-gramercy-park-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/367091-coop-130-east-18th-street-gramercy-park-new-york
Claim 2100 Guess: 1625 (30%)
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/479382-condo-40-east-20th-street-flatiron-new-york
Claim 2000 Guess: 1700 (18%)

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/495572-coop-182-lafayette-street-soho-new-york
Claim 2500 Guess 2100 (+19%)
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/472727-condo-121-east-23rd-street-gramercy-park-new-york
Claim 1634 Guess 1235 (+32%)
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/479382-condo-40-east-20th-street-flatiron-new-york
Claim 2000 Guess 1640 (+22%)

PPlayer, if i had a 10 foot thick structural wall i hope i would have the presence of mind to take that out of my sq ft calc. but please, first let me know how many 10 foot thick walls you've come across in your property searches. if someone has built in cabinets or shelves are you going to count from the point where the shelf meets the floor simply because you can stand there? if i have a 2 sq ft structural column, you going to net that out too? if i have a 1200ft white box. put up one bedroom with 30ft of wall. is it now 1170ft? if i put up a second bedroom right next to it with 40ft more of wall, is it now 1130ft?

obviously dimensions of internal rooms matter. but in my view, they matter to the extent that you want a certain layout/configuration. for total apt square footage, i still stick to my methodology above. you can stick to yours and make your evaluations based on it, doesn't bother me in the least. but if you are willing to pay less for the 2bd in my example (than a 1 bd) just because your square footage is less, then you could be waiting an awful long time to buy.

by the way, i am in 100% agreement that brokers are just ridiculous in their inflation of square footage. particularly in coops, it can get downright criminal. and anyone who signs a contract without measuring a unit is just plain negligent.

I think the thick interior wall was just an example. Key is to pick a method for measuring and do it consistently across apartments. I think makes sense to measure all square footage from the inside of the exterior walls of the apartment.

Include: Closets, hallways, interior walls, structural columns etc

Exclude: Thickness of exterior walls, storage units, outdoor space, balconies, mezz space with less than 8ft+ ceilings.

The excluded stuff can certainly make an apartment nicer, and should be factored into value, but not sqaure footage.

What do people think of the examples I posted? 20-40% sqaure footage inflation is crazy!!!

SpecialK, real estate goes up, it goes down. I currently own and we can wait it out. It's big enough unless we have more than one kid.

I bought my apartment straight out of college and the way real estate was sold was different, it was based on rooms. I bought a big two bedroom, and the livable space worked out to $200 PSF. Today the PSF for my neighborhood is $680. However, based on SF inflation of brokers, my 800SF apartment would be listed as 1100-1200 SF. Basically it's a way to make people pay more for less space. You're really paying $1k PSF.

New buyers are getting suckered into this new way of doing business. There are more than a few buyers who trust the listed SF, it's just not right. When you buy a dozen eggs, you know it's not all edible, but you've paid for a dozen, not 8. When you buy a 1200 SF apartment, not all of it's livable space, fine, but there should be about 1200 SF, not 800 SF.

Haverford, all those properties you posted are examples of this fraud that's being perpetuated in the market. The few times we've seen listings that are accurate, it's been so refreshing, and that is just sad.

haverford, those are good examples, thanks for posting.

pplayer - i agree that the inflation has gotten out of hand. to the extent that a person who wants to fairly represent their unit almost can't even do it anymore. if you truly listed your 800ft apt at 800ft and priced it as you think is fair, your open house would have like 2 people show up. so everyone inflates. and with coops, where there is no condo plan that calculates sq feet, its just ridiculous. i start at a minimum of 10% off listed sq footage and work my way down from there. even in condo buildings, there is no consistent methodology. many include some, but not all common space, some measure to the window, others to the outer exterior wall, etc.

one thing for sure, people were more honest w/ square footage back in the day. now, with all listing sites having that as a search metric, you almost have to put it in. and as a seller (i'm a buyer), if your honest, you don't even make the streeteasy screen sometimes. just sad...

When should get a CPI for square footage inflation.

The deflator would be called 're borker bullshit deflator'.

Obviously there are good reasons for accurate standards of measurements, since the beginning of time (or so) (slight joke intended there). Fortunately within real estate, especially for apartments, the space is generally within the grasp of general resident's ability to determine the feel of the size of the apartment without a tape measure. The size is neither so small needing extreme accuracy, or so large that the person can't get a grasp by eyeing it.

Agree to some extent, but that is too much of an over simplification. The problem is that the listed square footage makes a big difference with searches both on broker websites, Streeteasy, and other sites. With the advent of searches by price per square foot, the listed square footage can mean the difference between a potential buyer being aware of an apartment or not. This puts co-ops and condos at a big difference. Also, for appraisals, the appraiser typically measures the subject apartment but takes the comps square footage off the listing. This can mean the difference between qualifying for a loan or not.

mymonetate: In addition to haverford's cogent points, optical illusions have been exploited by humans since the dawn of time. Magicians are entertaining, disappearing square footage is not.

Of course you can get a general idea of size, but if you go to multiple listings that have inflated their SF, your perception starts to distort. You can lift a bar of gold and know it's heavy, but even though a difference in ounces will set you back thousands of dollars, chances are you can't tell what it weighs without measuring it in some way. We are talking about differences of SF that equals hundreds of thousands of dollars. That's not something you should "eyeball". The human eye is inaccuate and it can be fooled in innumerable ways. Take the prototypical guessing game, the number of jelly beans in a jar or three card monte.

Reality however sets in, when you start buying furniture, when you start having kids, when you realize that the "spacious" apartment you are looking at won't fit all your belongings because the SF has been inflated in relation to your old apartment.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/534228-condo-133-2nd-avenue-east-village-new-york

Can someone explain how this apartment is possibly 1416SF?

I believe you have to factor in the cutout of the upper floor if i am looking correctly. So you are buying the whole 2 floors so even though they cut out the floor it still counts.

this is why using PPSF is useless...70%of our inventory is coop, and of those that list SF it is usually estimated and inflated.

Dimensions 1st floor: 26.58ft x 37.8 ft less 5.81ft x 3.74ft = 972 ft st floor. Dimensions of Mezzanine: 14.54ft x 22.43ft = 326ft. Exact total square footage = 1298ft. This is measured from interior of exterior wall to interior of exterior wall and assumes the stated living room width is correct at 26'7". The inflation of 9% isn't that bad compared to examples I gave above showing 19-38% inflation. Now, the question of whether to include the mezzanine space is interesting, with 16 ft ceilings this is just on the borderline of space that should be included. Assuming 9" thick floor between, you are talking 7'7.5" ceilings for the entry area and bedroom...very borderline.

This topic is one near and dear to my heart! I did a 5 part video series on TrueGotham about this. Check it out at http://www.truegotham.com/archives/truegotham-tv-truegotham-tv-explores-square-feet-episode-five.html#discussion And the conclusion is that until there is a standard for of measure and an organization to police it, it will remain buyer beware. An engineer, an architect, an appraiser, a floor plan illustrator, and a real estate agent will likely come up with 5 different estimations of square footage. And in new developments it really depends on what liberties the developers take with calculating a percentage of common areas into that number and whether they measure the floor plate from the outside walls, the center of the walls or the inside of the walls. Then there is the predicament of previously stated sf for sellers. I have sold properties that were once 1200sf that we had to "shrink" based on our measurements to 1100sf when we sold them. I have also not taken exclusives on properties where sellers insisted that a place was 1500sf when it was indeed 1300sf. of course they found someone who would say it was 1500sf. It's a mess!!!

The other issue with this apartment is that the Bedroom is a loft with no window. Technically, this is a very, very nice, large studio in the east village. 1.7mm is crazy, 1.1mm, 1.2mm, maybe.

I understand that one very large brokerage has just forbidden its agents to list square footage after having five lawsuits lodged against it in a single week on the basis of alleged overstatement. Please don't ask which brokerage since I am a broker myself and cannot disclose. But I can say that my source is one of the firm's brokers.

When you are a buyer, key is to pick a methodology and measure consistently. I like from the interior of the exterior walls. Don't include outdoor space. Mezz space only if the combined ceiling height is over 16'9" (nescessary to get 2x 8' space). To estimate this way, all you need is one accurately measured dimension and a floorplan that is drawn to scale. Take the accurate dimension, use a ruler to measure the floorplan and do the calculations.

Outdoor space, low height mezz space, and units thick walls (provide a benefit with insulation and soundproofing), should be evaluated seperately, like views, ceiling height, fireplaces, quality of construction, etc.

Haverford, you are talking my language. However, I think most people are too lazy to do that. Why? Beats me!!

I challenge anyone to find the stated square footage in this condo. Offering plan also says 2019 sq ft.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/481143-condo-92-warren-street-tribeca-new-york

ill tell you this..for our submarket engine we use BATHROOMS to allow the user to differentiate one market from another, in addition to price point, neighborhood, and chart type. After tons of research, it was clear by a mile, that the highest quality/most available and least inflated datafield for each listing was number of bathrooms. Think about it. How often do brokers lie or inflate how many bathrooms a unit has? rarely!

I'm getting about 1350SF on this...

300_mercer
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I challenge anyone to find the stated square footage in this condo. Offering plan also says 2019 sq ft.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/481143-condo-92-warren-street-tribeca-new-york

Think you can get to 1660 sq ft, if you are generous.

22*30 living +kitchen +dining 660
Bedroom+bathroom+entry 300
Add (various) 100

Upper Level (generous measurement)
Bedroom 200
Bathroom 100
Closet 100
Study+landing 200

Only get 1660 sq ft.

Haverford,
Curious what you come up with for 92 warren link.

I think my apartment has everything on Haverford's "should be evaluated separately" list. I suppose it's a good thing because < 200 square feet of our space would meet the 8' ceiling requirement. (We have a mezzanine that causes most of the apartment to be just shy of that.)

Urbandigs, we started to use bathrooms as a proxy, too. An extra half bath was an excellent indicator that a one bedroom was big enough for us.

I get 1445 square feet for this. I assume the correct width of the apartment is 22ft per the floorplan and base the rest of the measurements on that. Again, this only works if the floorplan is to scale. This includes full credit for the mezz space.

Lad - I use 16.75ft as guideline. For ceiling heights less than that I wouldn't ignore the mezz and certainly not the space below it, just wouldn't give full credit for it. Less than 7ft ceilings and you are squarely in sleeping loft height, which i'd value very differently. Between 7-8 i'd say is a grey area. Then again, there are probbly some apartments that have less than 8ft ceilings throughout...

Thanks Haverford. I think the developer double counted the double ceiling height place to get to 2019 sw ft in addition to including exterior walls. There is not other way to justify. What do people think about 100 west 58 street duplex double counting 4d, 2d. No other way to get to the stated s

Thanks Haverford. I think the developer double counted the double ceiling height place to get to 2019 sw ft in addition to including exterior walls. There is not other way to justify. What do people think about 100 west 58 street duplex double counting 4d, 2d. No other way to get to the stated square footage.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/342268-condo-100-west-58th-street-central-park-south-new-york

It seems developers are not only double counting double height ceiling but also charging a premium for double height ceilings per sq foot!! "Silly" buyers with a lot of money. I guess they use their smarts somewhere else to afford expensive apartments.

I believe the question of square footage is sometimes overemphasized, though the need for honesty and integrity cannot be. Sure, ppsf matters, but a buyer who has seen a number of apartments should know what a particular property is worth to him/her no matter the square footage.

Regarding the comment by urbandigs, I have occasionally seen quarter baths (usually off a maid's room) characterized as half baths; in fact, I viewed an apartment with such an overstatement a week ago, and the broker merely shrugged when I pointed it out. (A quarter bath would have only a commode.)

yes I have seen 1/4 baths too advertised as half baths...its not nearly as prevalent though as say a 2BR being marketed as a 3BR convertible or a 5.5rm beig marketed as a 6 or 6.5rm apartment. Never will be 100% perfect. So really its a matter of using what is less worse to build a system that is less worse than any other out there to measure the overall market and submarkets as accurately as possible.

This should be a permanent thread on SE.

Anyone able to find the SF on this one?

http://www.1vernonjackson.com/downloadables/unit_7h.pdf

And yes this should be a permanent thread. Ever since the rising popularity of StreetEasy, I've noticed brokers and sponsors messing with SF and even doctoring floor plans. I had a broker tell me that everything on StreetEasy was a lie and that he would tell me what apartments are really worth, not the "fraudulent" selling prices listed in the recorded sales...

Anyone able to find the SF on this one?

http://www.1vernonjackson.com/downloadables/unit_7h.pdf

Really weird and narrow layout...

You would think that Streeteasy would curtail people lying about square feet, but I've seen multiple brokers post a floorplan from the same line of a building while another unit is for rent/sale with drastically different squarefootage. It's a sad world and everyone should be aware that people lie about these things.

One thing that really frustrates me is when you see blatant attempts to inflate the square footage! For example this place in south south park slope:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/416645-condo-599-4th-avenue-park-slope-brooklyn
Seems like a great deal compared relative to the area because it's only $483 per ft². But if you look at the floor plan, it's really only 499 ft² and "limited common area" of 277 per ft² added on. Who the hell includes common area for everyone in the whole building as part of the units square footage!?!?? That attractive $483 per ft² jumps to $690 per ft²! I'd never trust a place like this because it just seems deceptive.

again, this is why looking at metrics associated with AVG price per sft, really should carry no weight at all. Confidence in anything associated with PPSF should be very low in general. Ok, nice A/C break, now off to party. Happy and safe 4th all!

Agree with malcolmnc that ppsf is only one factor that needs to be considered, they layout itself is equally important. However, there is no way to "search" on layout, and I hate having to wade through tons of apartments that *DO NOT* meet my criteria because they are misrepresenting square footage. I think everyone here should make a point when they look at places that misrepresent to click on a link "Start a discussion on this property" and report what the their calculated square footage is along w/ their methodology. It would save everyone a lot of time and is one of the few ways we have to put pressure on the sellers/broker community.

I do think it's important that the discussion be linked to the properties themselves rather than having a single thread. But, if you do this, please edit the title that is autogenerated to begin with "Square Feet: " so that those who aren't interested can skip it. Also, it would be good if we could agree on a "street easy" methodology. I don't really care what it is as long as it's consistent. I would vote for a relatively easy-to-calculate measure, like the one haverford posted earlier. Any objections to that methodology?

What about a condo apartment that has roof rights? Should that area be included in the summary statement of the square footage for the apartment??

For the apartment in question, official city records DO add the roof square footage to the apartment's. But it seems disingenuous to me to advertise the apartment at that square footage. The roof area is unimproved, by the way.

We're solving the problem, sort of, by providing a detailed, accurate floor plan in our advertising.

I would love to know what others think about this, however.

Roof air rights sq footage should be mentioned separately in the ad. Most poeple will pay 25-50% of the interior sq footage for the roof depending on the view and condition.

Kharby, does the unit in question have access to the roof currently via a staircase or a ladder?

Roof rights in general don't seem worth much to me, given the exorbitant construction costs involved, but if you come up with some kind of valuation for unimproved roof square footage, I'd love to hear it.

We're in a co-op where the roof above our apartment is unimproved and very difficult for anyone to access. (Those in lower-floor units would have to climb an 18' ladder from the hall, exit through a hatch, and then jump over HVAC units that extend clear across the roof.)

I think our opening offer to the co-op is ask for the roof rights for free (and pay maintenance on the additional shares), but I'm not sure what our max should be. I'm probably not willing to pay any more than $100 per square foot given the need to build an internal staircase, bulkhead, etc.

Unless we - prospective buyers and tenants - challenge the real estate brokerage companies - either legally or through the media - e.g. NYT, nothing will get done about this very serious issue.

"again, this is why looking at metrics associated with AVG price per sft, really should carry no weight at all."

No, you muddle the issue. If EVERYONE lies, the average won't change. People also lie about whether or not its a 1, 2, or three bedroom to boot. I still think PPSF is teh best measure.

Thats fine. Im saying, after 11 months of digging into the source data, I disagree 100% with you. I dont muddle the issue, that kind of measurement for the markets are flat out wrong. Way overinflating and underinflating based upon the capture of closed sales and the percentage of broker over/under estimation for the counted listings sales. I wouldnt follow it at all as a measurement of the market. If you must follow something as an indication on market trends over the years, Ill follow median sale price as more a general market indicator.

And yes, brokers inflate on bedroom size and room size too...which is why standardizing the entire db for purposes of creating worthy charts to break down and follow submarkets, we will use bathrooms. Bathrooms seems the clear winner for most reliable and least inflated datafield.

"Bathrooms seems the clear winner for most reliable and least inflated datafield."

Who would have thought ... and in columbiacounty they only have out houses.

PPSF will also include many condo outliers from 2008-2010, that when removed, paint a very different picture of the general market trend. What does the AVG PPSF look like when you remove the Top 5 condo conversions/developments from 2007-2010? Im sure the change is significant. Thats on top of inflation for coop sales. I'll assume that most condo nmbers are close, because that number can be verified in offering plan and it really makes no sense to inflate it. Yet, I have seen that done many times too. Unfortunately, no charts on our new system were deemed high enough in reliability/quality to be worth measuring in price per sft.

The tape measure seems unnecessary. You should be able to get what you need by checking building resales on ACRIS and comparing the prices to something similar, the market price differential will tell you what you need to know. You also need to understand that no two apartments have the same layout so 2000 square feet can be different for multiple reasons. Where the tape measure does come in handy is checking to see if a piece of furniture fits.

Urbandigs, the square footage in the offering plans of condos in the last few years has been inflated. It starts with the developers not just the brokers. See my previous post.

"I challenge anyone to find the stated square footage in this condo. Offering plan also says 2019 sq ft.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/481143-condo-92-warren-street-tribeca-new-york
"

yes, some of the recent developers added common elements to state sft in offering plan. is this what you are referring to? I know Ariel West did it. Only one I ran into though.

Urban, sounds deceptive. How clear was that in the offering plan and did the lawyers all catch that?

yea that is a nutty one..my acris sale on this shows:

92 WARREN STREET 55W) SINGLE RESIDENTIAL CONDO UNIT 2007-03-15 2007-03-22 2,341,975

First date is sold date, second is file date. Its clear this buyer paid seller transfer fees in the price.

real time ACRIS feed on our new platform overrides all other broker status systems and counts as our "verify" point. Curious to see where this sells for.

That came out before my client started bidding, and was one of my questions to the sales agent in the office after a presentation. We ultimately started bidding months later on a different unit, but same circumstance applied. As long as my buyer client was aware, we bid accordingly and negotiated until they were comfortable and got the deal.

Units probably get penalized in appraisal. Methods vary but this takes the cake.
The fact they did not continue the practice with Rushmore suggests it did no go over well.

re 92 warren. The offering plan has no details of the measurement methodology. I think they double counted the high ceiling space.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/54431-condo-1474-third-avenue-upper-east-side-new-york

I've seen these apts. There are a few for sale in this building. I can't imagine they are more than 1400 sq ft. The smallest '1600' sq ft I have ever seen. I thought condos were supposed to be more accurate. Based on ppsf the prices are high as well as the cc+taxes (almost $2.00/psf)

Has anyone seen 401 8th Ave #53 in Park Slope? Listing is here: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/534365-coop-401-8th-avenue-park-slope-brooklyn

Just wanted some thoughts.

Says 1175. I can't more than 800, outside to outside.

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=2023845

Now, compare it to this one listed as 850 square feet:

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=2033673&ohDat=

Clearly, 850 is more than 1175. New math!

Jason, This is more than 800 you calculate. This is coming from someone who hates sq footage inflation. Let us be objective on this board as otherwise there is no difference between the brokers or offering plans which overstate and "us" if we significantly understate.

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=2023845.

Here is what I get:
Width (appx) = 12ft bedroom + 2 ft closet + 12ft second bedroom + 20 ft including walls interior wall etc for Living room = 46 ft

Lenght of Living = 19ft + 3 ft for Kitchen = 22

Excluding part of the bathrooms at the bottom = 46*22~1000 sq ft.

Bottom portion of the bathrooms = 5 ft *16 ft = 80ft

Total at least 1050sq ft.

"Jason, This is more than 800 you calculate. "

You double count the kitchen area. Quite possibly the closet area. In my experience, the length/width more often than not INCLUDES bedroom closet walls.

Its 364 SF for the LR/DR/Kitchen, INCLUDING the counter space, and that is (incorrectly) assuming the walls are equla lenght. Since its an irregular quadrangle, its more like 350 SF.

You round up all over the place. But lets see if i do it your way bottom up.

LR/DR/Kitchen = 350
Small BR, including closet space is 14.58*13.25 = 193.2
Master BR is 11.67*17.08=199.32
Bathrooms = 80
Foyer = 80
TOTAL = 902

Condos are middle of exterior wall to middle, so we could add at most 10%, so we get 990. Not 1050. And certainly not 1175.

But most importantly, how is this 325 square feet bigger than the 850 SF 2 bedroom that is essentially the same size per its floorplan?

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=2033673&ohDat=

And incidentally, my apartment has bigger EVERYTHING than the "1175" one. Bigger LR/DR kitchen by 100SF, and each bedroom is bigger, and a weirdly big foyer that is double the size of that one, it has three walk in closets, yet its listed as only 1050 SF.

Jason, The reason I am adding 3 sq ft is that if you look at the bottom of the bedroom which is 17ft long, and draw a straight line to the left, there is appx 5 ft more. Hence the total 22. The closets between the two bedroom are excluded from the dimensiona listed but there is no way to prove that without actually measuring. Bathroom to me look more than 8 foot as a bathtub is ~5ft long and shower is appx 3ft. Total 8ft. Width of two bathroom combined is appx 15ft as it is wider than the master bedroom width. Total bathrooms at least 120 fq ft. I do share your general sentiment about sq footage overstatement.

Guys - you can do this more exactly. 1) Print out a copy of a floorplan. 2) take measurements with a ruler. 3) check that the dimensions listed are proportionally accurate. 3) pick a dimension and calculate the rest of the dimensions based on your measurements and the listed dimension. This will get you an exact measurement assuming the floorplan is drawn to scale and the room dimensions listed are not all overstated by the same amount (step one will catch errors unless someone increased all the dimensions by the same proportion. Don't have a printer w/me, but someone who does give it a try, and let me know.

Measure from interior of exterior wall to interior of exterior wall. Include all interior walls, columns, closets, hallways, bathrooms, etc. If it is in your apartment, include it. Don't include outdoor space or Mezz space w/ less that 7.5-8ft ceilings.

There's one problem with that. I've been finding measurements of floorplans to be woefully inaccurate to the point where not only are the numbers off, rooms that appear on the floorplan simply do not exist in real life.

haverford

Guys - you can do this more exactly. 1) Print out a copy of a floorplan. 2) take measurements with a ruler. 3) check that the dimensions listed are proportionally accurate. 3) pick a dimension and calculate the rest of the dimensions based on your measurements and the listed dimension. This will get you an exact measurement assuming the floorplan is drawn to scale and the room dimensions listed are not all overstated by the same amount (step one will catch errors unless someone increased all the dimensions by the same proportion. Don't have a printer w/me, but someone who does give it a try, and let me know.

Measure from interior of exterior wall to interior of exterior wall. Include all interior walls, columns, closets, hallways, bathrooms, etc. If it is in your apartment, include it. Don't include outdoor space or Mezz space w/ less that 7.5-8ft ceilings.

There's a much easier way to calculate, no need to print anything, but you do need a ruler.
Use the control key together with the roller button on your mouse (or however else you are able to enlarge or shrink the text or image on your screen). Pick a room with dimensions shown and preferably a room that has a 10 ft dimension and line up the ruler to that measurement on your screen. Scroll the size up or down until that 10 foot length measures exactly 1 inch on your ruler.
Now you can measure the entire apartment in one shot (especially if it's a perfect square or rectangle) with every inch representing 10 feet. So an apartment that's 4 and half inches wide(45) and 3 and a half inches long(35) is 1575 sq ft.
You should be measuring outer wall to outer wall. You shouldn't be deducting for hallways,foyers, closets, etc. Instead you should pay less per sq ft for what you see as poorly used footage.

Its not ALWAYS outer wall to outer wall, it depends on the kind of bldg.

I was just looking at the listing for 452 West 19th Street #1A. They say it's 1320 square feet, but how can this possibly be right given their floor plan? It's not even close! Am I missing something? Has anyone seen this apartment?

yeah, no, even with the kitchen I get 859 SF interior space...even outer wall to outer wall it can't be that big.

We've been inside 452 W 19th #1A. The apartment does seem quite large (I'd guestimate closer to 1,000 square feet), but is a prime example of square footage not being everything. There's no real way to carve up either the upstairs or downstairs into two bedrooms without making the place look Frankenstein-ish; a lot of the square footage is not easily usable.

But this place has bigger problems. All of the finishes are very low-grade (below even typical rental grade), and the renovation looks amateur. I wouldn't be surprised if the building materials came from a liquidator. Both levels are extremely dark with almost no natural light; the living room looks out onto the sidewalk, and the bedroom looks into a "pit" to which passersby throw trash (and where mice probably live). The layout is odd, too, with the full bath is upstairs but the only good sleeping space is downstairs. (Though that second air conditioner in the living room is supposed to convince buyers they can make an 7-8' "bedroom" up there. To top it all off, the building is on the same block as a bunch of housing projects.

This would be great party space for someone who wants to fit 100+ people into their apartment and doesn't care about natural light, noise, or finer details. But, beyond that, I'm not seeing much of a target market for this place. A lot of the people at the OH we attended (six-plus months ago now) walked in and then immediately walked back out.

This one's pretty amusing, at an ask of $2,695,000 and even forgeting this went into contract during peak 2007 and sold for $2,041,000 is weighing in at 1449 square feet.
Ive afforded every opportunity to reach this size, outer wall to outer wall (thick as magic marker) and included the staircase on the roof......still come in at @ 1150 sq ft.
And the condo dec states 1449 sq ft.
I find the largest discrepencies with "Malley Group" (the Oculus for ex) involved properties.

oops...link
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/520141-condo-125-west-21st-street-chelsea-new-york

I love how the floorplan has a disclaimer of +/- 769 SF. I'd like to sell them a car with +/- 4 wheels.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/520141-condo-125-west-21st-street-chelsea-new-york

Nice to see that square footage inflation is alive and well:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/524979-coop-119-west-80th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

Looks closer to 1000SF than 1400. The total footprint of the lot might be 1400. Are they counting the garden and the area under the stoop? The room count shows some chutzpah too: Six rooms? Really?

I am in contract on an apt. and just got the appraisal back and though the apt boasted 1900 square feet it is actually under 1700! OMG

Well good to know that someone is fighting the fraudulent statements of sellers and winning!! http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/06/nyregion/06square.html

And do you have a contingency for that sort of thing in your contract, or is there an explicit waiver?

Well you have to expect up to a 10% cheat on most listings where yours falls under.

THe article you mention is 15% cheat on a specific area of the home. Im guessing seller forgot the disclaimer on measurements in the fine print.
There are always pluses and minuses in contracts in whether you are specific and/or when you are vague. Sometimes mentioning one thing specifically gets you off the hook on other things not mentioned. And being vague and non specific can leave it all open to a judgement. It works both ways.

In today's market, a savvy buyer could negotiate the margin of error. Let's face it; this would be a bit more of an issue than let's say, the butcher with his finger on the scale. If supermarkets are required to post price per ounce, then why would sqaure feet not be a priority?

I don't have a contingency and though I spoke quite often about the importance of price per square foot for me, NOBODY advising me (I.E>my broker) ever said "You know that square footage is probably WAY OFF perhaps you should measure before you make an offer." I suppose in NYC the Goldman Sachs way is the right way. So much for a standard of ethics. Clearly they don't exist.