Open House Reports Sunday June 20th.

it doesn't sound like much has changed over the years, overpriced, needs work...

Pretty much. Are you still looking too? I think this will be the last excursion for us for a while.

You asked for thoughts.

"Spouse is suggesting alternative cities to live in, and I am beginning to agree as prices here remain as far out of reach as they were during the boom."

That's depressing. Can you afford to rent in the city? Then why move??? Owning RE isn't everything, is it? Maybe it is, I've never owned.

Ugh, we rarely go to OHs anymore. Everything we've seen recently is still depressingly overpriced and in sad condition.

UWSmom, we can't afford to rent a 2-bedroom in anything but somewhat marginal neighborhoods - and we're now in a position where 1 bedroom isn't going to be feasible for much longer. The question becomes, do we take our $100k down payment and move somewhere we can buy a house outright or with a very small mortgage, or do we want to stay in NYC so badly that we either buy in the outer boroughs or struggle to make payments on an apartment we're going to outgrow in a couple of years? Renting is not a long-term option when you are market rate. Our income is not going up 4-5% a year. So if someone wants to hand me a livable rent-stab 2-bedroom in a great neighborhood relatively near my job and my friends, great, otherwise it's time to look elsewhere.

If you cannot afford to rent in areas you like, there is little chance you would be able to buy since renting right now is cheaper.

I agree with csn. Unless you are paying all cash, then the cost of ownership is well above the cost of renting right now. (Even if you are paying all cash, if you could have earned any kind of decent return on that cash, you would probably be better off renting, given the opportunity cost.)

So if even today's rents are too high for you then it is probably time to consider the suburbs, or moving to another city if your work allows it.

I've been scouting condos in Downtown Brooklyn because I'm interested in be@Schermerhorn which is around $579 per ft². That building just resurfaced on the market with some huge price cuts ala Forte (price cut from $800 to ~$500 per ft²). Not sure if you want a condo but some are rather affordable close to Brooklyn Heights even with monthly common charges. This could be a nice deal for you in the Schermerhorn building: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/526004-condo-189-schermerhorn-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn
737 sq ft, $365,375, $495 per ft². Check out the floor plan, although I must say the extra room which you could use as a second bedroom has no windows hence why it's listed as a 1 BR and not 2. Could expand the scope of you search to include condos as quite a few have gone through the proverbial price chopper.

I'm sorry ev. I understand. how about the areas where you're looking to buy? still too high? it's a tough city to crack. i've lost a few friends to it. :(

why don't you look into peter cooper

Buy now or be priced out forever.

meredith whitney was just on cnbc and was incredulous that people and even some economists don't realize that there will be a double dip in housing. she says it is absolutely inevitable. of course it affects different areas in different ways. i, too, wanted to buy but prices were too high. I am currently renting and spending far less than i would if i had bought. and, my rental is equivalent to the price range apts i was looking at. no matter what anyone says, rents are negotiable. not in every building, not with every owner, but there are negotiable, affordable apts in every neighborhood. and btw, peter cooper is a good idea.

When you run the math, modest 2-brs in BH and similar neighborhoods do not cost much more than renting my too-small 1-bedroom. I know you have your schtick, steve, but by looking only at city-wide averages you are out of touch with reality on this point. The problem for us is timeline - how long will we be able to stay in the small 2-br?

A double-dip recession is by no means assured, apt23. I am still waiting for the crash of 2008 to materialize in NYC. Peter Cooper's 2-brs are over 4k - I can buy the modest 2-br for that. Or an entire house elsewhere.

can you really buy the modest two bdrm for 4000/month?

taxes/cc or maintenance alone can be 2000/month

if you put 100 down and borrow 500 at 5%, your payment is 3500/month

sums, assuming you can get sucha 5% mortgage, to 5500/month

and then, when you sell, you pay 10% of gross value in transaction costs

the difference is so huge i wont bother figuring the tax benefits

and if you rent, your cash can be safe; in case you do decide to move to another city

i dont get your math/planning

Wbottom - I don't get people like you who feel a need to remind this board how to incorrectly calculate monthly costs using numbers retrieved deep from within the recesses of their lower abdomen.

most of us are waiting for another price drop which has yet to materialize.
this is one still very expensive city.
old memories die hard.
time will tell how long this can continue.
Re takes a long time to reset...if it does

ev --I am still waiting for the crash of 2008 to materialize in NYC.

me too. that is why i am renting. all the young families i know are looking in north jersey where apparently prices have come down.

We just need a catalyst that will cause people to stop buying. And I've often pondered, if not for the credit freeze and subsequent tightening of lending standards, which forced the market to pause and then reset, whether the Lehman fiasco and recession would have been enough to stop the buying back in 08/09. We still saw strong sales figures throughout the dog days of the recession so on the surface that didn't appear to be enough, although pent up demand and incentives may have played a roll.

I'm afraid that without a major catalyst like we saw with the credit freeze, we will see this market continue to trudge along.

apt23....I think you're wrong. Manhattan pricing has held up b/c of the coop/condo boards preventing the subprime cancer from spreading. Credit was easy for everyone else but the nature of the beast would not allow it here. Prices did drop modestly from peak frenzy buying highs but that's about it. Some of those buyer investors who bought must have been underwater but they were probably flushed out somewhere back in 2008/2009.

hey seasickness

ill overlook your illness to say my calculations are perfectly appropriate given the OP's expressed considerations

OP expressed a preference to put 100k down for a 600k modest 2 bdrm, that OP could "buy" for the same 4000/month one can rent for in PCV

did you read the post?
or is this just another vehicle for your longwinded way of saying little?

and little of any accuracy: "forced the market to pause and then reset"..what planet were you on? the market traded off 25-30% from peak..."saw strong sales figures throughout the dog days of the recession"..good shlt you smoke...sales plummetted at the height of the recession

one other item: fock yourself

steveF, condo boards do nothing regarding loose credit, and coops clearly don't have magical powers, because they had the same rules in places prior to earlier (and VERY substantial) price-crashes in the Manhattan market.

No, it's the massive Federal bailout of banks that's strung the Manhattan residential RE market along to the extent that it has. Whether that's sustainable or just pushes the crash out a few more years remains to be seen.

I still expect the big price plummet based on that scenario, given the underlying economic problems nationwide and worldwide.

2k/mth maint/cc for a 600k apt? Really?

3500/mth for 500k @ 5%? Really?

Keep renting wiggly cheeks. With your mind blowing grasp of the market and ownership costs as demonstrated above we will soon bow to the greatness of that which is your derrière, I am sure. In fact, evnyc may very well be off to Topeka by now.

alan, so you're telling me that an ajustable interest only loan is ok will pass a coop board? I'm not that coop board savvy but I find that very hard to believe. I think it was the manhattan buyer's strong financial standing that made the credit crisis a "so what" for owners. I certainly don't expect a big price plummet. I expect prices to increase at a normal rate of appreciation, maybe 4-5% alongside the economy.

"taxes/cc or maintenance alone can be 2000/month"

I wonder if Wbottom could produce even ONE listing for a modest 2BR in Brooklyn Heights with $2,000/month of maintenance/taxes, much less demonstrate that is anywhere near typical for this type of property.

steveF, I'm telling you that COOPS had the same mortgage standards during this last bubble as they did in the late 1980s, and that didn't stop the early 90s crash; and I'm telling you that CONDOS have no mortgage standards at all; and finally I'll tell you that some coops allow interest-only mortgages if there's enough liquidy assets to back it up, and did so during the recent bubble.

alan: either way it sounds like the buyer is screened by coops(to a lesser extent condo) boards for financial ability to afford the apartment. No coop board to pass when buying that house.

Yes, steveF, and let me very slowly walk you through this one more time: COOPS ALSO SCREENED PRIOR TO THE LAST HUGE CRASH, TO NO AVAIL.

uwsmom...i'm beginning to feel the same way...it's so bad what i've been seeing and prices are not budging.

alan: what r u alking about? The crash of 1990-1991 was related to massive oversupply related to the 1986 tax law changes and the coop/condo conversion boom, not any credit crisis.

I find the "renting is cheaper than buying" antics hard to believe, at least in my situation. Looking for a 2/2 in UES or UWS and haven't seen anything remotely updated/renovated and not a money pit for under $925k (with the highest maint at $1800). With the down payment of $400k the monthly costs would be around $4200, which is CLEARLY under what a 2/2 rental would cost. And I'm not talking about a coop rental, I'm talking about a true rental building that we can live in for 10 years, not one where we get kicked out after 2 years b/c of stupid coop rules. So, there!

We saw a few this weekend: 315 East 70th #8H and #3F
and ... 239 East 79th #6J, #3N, and #4L

239 is nice b/c the maintenance is low - what did you think of them?

I liked them, but on the smaller side. 4L was horrific!!!!!!!!!! 6J needs a total gut reno.

"alan: what r u alking about? The crash of 1990-1991 was related to massive oversupply related to the 1986 tax law changes and the coop/condo conversion boom, not any credit crisis."

Don't be ridiculous ... it was nationwide.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/20773-congrat-manhattan-re-brokers-a-new-record

hmmm...this is kind of interesting. if you follow the above thread, w67 would have us believe that the amount of open houses indicates a weakness in the market. one would think that weakness would translate into it being a buyers market. but word from actual house hunters really doesn't show that does it? what'zzzzzzzzzzzzzz your take geniuzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?

Inconsistent with this fake persona.

denial is more than a river

i'd just like to hear w67's take. it should be eazzzzzy for him to explain this.

You're trying too hard.

A real jumbo jimbo wouldn't approach it this way.

NYC is an expensive city. And the whole-too-expensive-to-rent-or-buy-in-any-desirable-city is a global phenomenon. I'm not sure what the end game is. The only people who can comfortably afford to buy the space they need seem to be a lucky combo of no-student-loans/parents-gave-dp/high-relative-incomes-to-area.

bump...

what about all those open houses w67? where are the HUGE discounts? how come the property owners aren't dropping prices is the market is so soft?

You mean like this douche who lost $30MM in 2 years? Ya mean that kinda "HUGE" discount?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704895204575321030323837408.html?mod=rss_newyork_real_estate

nyc10023, me thinks the bubble was exported by our AWESOME bankers internationally.... just look at what's happening in all major cities... its' a synchronized credit compression leading to only one conclusion, RE is gonna SUCK azzz for yrs to come...

nyc10023- Interesting take, and I agree.
In the industry my wife and I work (financial services, front office tech) we are able to rent comfortably enough in Manhattan.
I suppose down the line we could buy, but it will be a while, and I'm in no rush given the relative pricing to rent.

Looking back at my coworkers & friends who bought in 2000-2007, they were precisely that - no student loans, parents paid down payment, and high income relative to area (financial svcs).

I remember at lunch one day, making a comment like "oh __ can only afford to buy because their parents paid down payment" and everyone at the table basically looked at me and was like "well.. my parents helped me with mine..".

So I guess the question here is - whats the supply of ~30ish couples with parents willing to pay downpayment?
Given the drop in all asset classes, and threats to pensions.. how many 55-65 baby boomers have the cash on hand to pay their kids downpayment anymore?

To get back to the OP, Brooklyn sellers exist in some sort of vacuum, divorced from reality. Inventory here is very low, and many people who want to sell but don't have to are waiting. Some have taken their units off the market, others are stubborn because "the same line sold for 600K last month", never mind that the sold unit was completely renovated and yours is in estate condition.
Many, many parts of Manhattan are now cheaper than prime Brooklyn. As much as I love Brooklyn, live here and want to buy here, this is simply not a sustainable situation. Manhattan is inherently more valuable than Brooklyn. Prime Brooklyn is expensive because of its proximity to Manhattan. The prices have to reflect that relationship. Eventually, they will.