Suburbs cost more than city UNTIL....

No one on Long Island lives any further than 10 minutes from the LIRR. Just ask them.........

"I think it's the other way around where there's more criticism from those in the 'burbs on city living. This begs the question on why 'burbians're browsing a city real estate site..."

From who? Except for sniper, nobody here lives in the burbs.

Has anyone seen 401 8th Ave #53 in Park Slope? Listing is here: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/534365-coop-401-8th-avenue-park-slope-brooklyn

Just wanted some thoughts.

President--I LIVE in the 'burbs (not for much longer though)--own in NYC too--and I am not a sniper

Alan - Not sure about the accuracy of your GF's mom on the UWS. My dad grew up on 71st and Columbus in the 40's and 50's. His stories made it seem that he was on the border(ish) (just to the good side) and to the south was where the rough parts started (West Side Story was also filmed on location before they super-blocked the areas around Lincoln Center). The 70's, 80's and 90's were very jewish with most of the same big synagogues still there (West Side Institutional Synagogue - horrible name - was already there at the time). It didn't start getting less jewish until you got above 96th st. with only one big synagogue between 96 and 110. 72nd had lots of kosher stores back then too.

clarification of my Ivy versus SUNY/CUNY argument. I think someone with the ability to get into a Harvard (no scholarship) but goes to a lesser school (state school?) with scholarship and graduates without loans versus the $100k+ you could have from Harvard is the kid with the advantage (assuming effort put into studies in both places).

You will graduate much higher in your class and, most of all, have no loans. I don't know if you can quantify how huge of an advantage that is. I agree that if you want a job in a top law firm or investment bank you probably need to punch your tickets along the way and then maybe you can skate through life. But there is a much higher chance of success in LIFE, which includes much (MUCH) more than NYC upper middle class jobs, if you work hard, get a good education, and have the economic freedoms to take chances. (with the added bonus that you get to enjoy your childhood instead of working 12 years to get a resume for college).

If you get out of NYC sometimes you will realize there are a lot of very successful people in this country and the world whose road to success didn't go through Harvard. And most at most companies and industries no one cares where you went, but what you can accomplish.

Sometimes our outlook of what is possible in the world is limited by our view that the world ends at the Hudson River. We forget that fortunes are also made in construction, food, furniture, energy, technology, all of which might be going on in places other than NY or even SF, LA, Boston, etc.

Not to mention that people can be successful in Law, finance, accounting, consulting, etc. and live in the middle of the country.

AvUWS - your perspective is so refreshing. like a nice green tea lemonade (unsweetened) with extra ice! thank you.

Totally agree, no loans gives a kid way much more room to wait for a better fit, a guy with loans has to take whatever job is available

swe: >> Thats like saying "yes" is a "rough approximation" of "no".

No it's like saying:
30 min extra commute ~ 10-11 days a year
1 hr extra commute each way ~ 21-22 days a year

If you're going to engage in all this "cheaper than" analysis, this should be a major factor/cost and not swept under the rug.

Wow, thanks. I expected to hear all sorts of comments defending the NYC-centered perspective.

Mind you, much of the successful in the rest of the country are more likely to look like the Housewives of Orange County or the couple I saw in Vail where the guy dressed in a cowboy hat and an ankle length fur coat. But that is personal choice.

Success can also look like the friend of an ex. Doctor who made his $ in medical training videos and who vacationed in Manhattan a few weeks a year, staying at the Four Seasons or the Pierre w/ full time limo, had a house in Tuscany, and lived in CA. Very classy but quite rich, and NOT a Manhattanite.

Or the guy I just saw at the Fancy Food Show. He started (and sold) Terra Chips. Started and sold Alexia potato products, and is now on his 3rd company. (Seemed like a nice guy too. And manning his own booth.)

You won't or can't take those chances if you first need to worry about paying off your school debt.

>> I have to say, I'm a "city" fan, but the city arguers are making the burbs sound better and better.

There are lots of towns real cheap and real close SWE.
I suggest you check out West Orange's neighbors like Newark and Jersey City.
Real good $/square foot.

Spaceboy - and a lot here still miss the fact that many suburbanites don't commute into the city.

Those that do often have made the calculation that they are willing to sacrifice those hours in the day in return for the space. In free markets, and we hope they remain that way, each is free to choose that which suits them best.

You don't have any friends who think you are crazy to choose to live in NYC "closets"? I thought everyone had them. And a 2000 sq. ft. classic 7 on the UWS is still a closet to someone who figures $2 million would buy them several acres, a tennis court, pool, up to 10,000 sq ft and 3-4 car garage (WITH THE CARS). Not to mention they could then still visit manhattan and stay in a nice hotel.

It is all about choices. Thank heavens we have them.

spaceboy, so everyone should be living within a 10 min walk from work, otherwise you have to use that calculation. we should also be surrounded by our favorite restaurants/bars/gyms/museums/parks.....

your analysis fails as soon as you take a couple into account where one works in midtown and another works downtown. let's not even take kids into your consideration, because then your analysis is worth...... nothing

>> Spaceboy - and a lot here still miss the fact that many suburbanites don't commute into the city.

I'm not missing that fact. I'm simply saying if you increase your commute by 30 mins or 1 hr each way, the time adds up. Even if you live and work in suburbs, you can still increase your commute by 30 mins or 1 hr. This should be considered, especially from those doing the "cheaper than" calculations. Only individually do you know if your commute is going to increase.

>> You don't have any friends who think you are crazy to choose to live in NYC "closets"?

I think I'm a little crazy myself, but I did my analysis and made my choice. I shared a major factor of that choice, which was 3 weeks a year of commuting time * 2 parents = too much time away from kids.

AvUWS -- Big buildings heavily jewish. But the tenements (especially) and chopped-up (rooming house) brownstones (mostly) were Irish in the 1940s and 1950s, from what I understand. And consider that only shortly before that, an elevated train ran up Columbus Ave. The blocks around 72nd & Columbus still have quite a few old Irish bars, and in the 1970s the UWS had hundreds of them -- probably best represented today by Dublin House at 79th & Bway.

What kind of building did your father grow up in?

You're correct that south of there, around Lincoln Square and San Juan Hill, was also Irish, as was Hell's Kitchen below that.

Most of the kosher stuff currently around 72nd is fairly new, by the way, the area having been a hotbed of more secular/reform Central European jews in the post-WWII decades.

>> your analysis fails as soon as you take a couple into account where one works in midtown and another works downtown. let's not even take kids into your consideration, because then your analysis is worth...... nothing

Please clarify how it fails if one works downtown and the other midtown and you move to ridgewood and both your commutes increase by more than 30 minutes.

well, the kosher stuff taht is on 72nd IS new. Like everything else things change. Cake Masters is gone, probably a half dozen delis and all the kosher butchers, etc. The jewish population in general has changed. Those living there now are probably the kids/grandkids of people who moved out in the 50's 60's.

You are probably right re: elevator vs. brownstone. My dad was in an elevator building. Also, EVERY Jewish Westsider I ever met had a story of how they "could have bought [this or that] brownstone for $5/10,000 back in X" including my grandfather. He didn't because my grandmother refused "to be a concierge". Of course with all the rent stabilized tenants back then and the white-flight it probably didn't seem like such a deal.

You are right about the El (shut in 1940). I think my grandmother, who passed in 1981/2, would be very surprised to hear that Columbus is prime Manhattan today.

live on UWS/UES. commute to midtown = 20-30 min. commute to downtown 45-50 min. let's not forget that you may need to walk to the train. you also need to add that sometimes the train is so packed by the time it gets to you that you'll have to wait for the next one.

ab: It's irrelevant what your commute is now... its relevant only if you're going to move (somewhere "cheaper") and then increase your commute by 30mins-1hr. Is it really "cheaper"? Get it?

It applies within Manhattan too. If you move from GV to Yorkville UES, I think you should make the same estimate.

The kosher scene on 72nd today is generated by that newish very orthodox synagogue in/near Lincoln Towers. I doubt more than two or three of its congregants are the kids/grandkids of anyone who used to live in the area. They're from the BBQ and LI.

Total agreement on the brownstone that got away.

The whole premise of this thread is that it's cheaper $/sq foot to live in x vs y. Okay but if it now takes you z more time to get to work EVERY day, why are you not calculating that, if you're also calculating differences between mortgage, RE taxes, income taxes, etc.

alanhart - what's the BBQ?

spaceboy - you can do this 100 ways from Sunday. It is certainly valid that one could add in the time value of the increased commute. Of course I could also reverse it and add in the extra time for getting out of the city if one goes away for the weekend. And most people have set hours of work, so they can't practically monetize the time difference. And of course many people, especially mass transit users, value that 45 minutes of time uninterrupted by kids/co-workers to read/ipod, etc.

but yes, it is ridiculous to say that one is 'better' or 'cheaper'. Assuming you have the budget for a reasonable amount of space in the city (which most don't), you choose the one that works best for you.

Alan - Actually those restaurants pull from the whole UWS as there are few kosher choices farther north. and as to their demographic makeup, you are right in that the young are all most recently from LI, NJ, and BBQ, but wrong in that their parents and grandparents first got to NJ, LI and BBQ after leaving the UWS. Usually it was the Manhattanites and Bronxites who moved north and west and the brooklynites who moved east. But obviously this rule is not hard and fast.

It is just a return of subsequent generations. It was an easy return because there was a lot of jewish infrastructure in place, was in NY, and the UWS was relatively cheaper in the 70's and early '80s than the UES. (In the '80s not many other parts of the city were considered safe or had a jewish contingent except septuagenarians and octogenarians of Washington Heights and the LES.)

And some of the currently young orhtodox on the UWS will also leave if they can no longer afford it as their families grow.

BBQ = BRonx, Brooklyn, Queens. (Separates the boroughs from the suburbs. B&T is not specific enough as it includes LI and NJ.)

Some color on the mid30s to 50s procreating crowd living S. of 72nd zone (excluding Trump). There is a fair sprinkling of native Manhattanites among the LI/NJ crowd (haven't met many BBQers).

I thought Fischer Bros. was relatively ancient?

As for the denizens of my block, RC/RS remnants (40s-80s) + just-got-my-first-job-paying-well-enough-to-pay-2k-rent/BankofMaPa + people running interesting businesses.

"They never include driving to the train station, waiting for a late train or the train being delayed in the tunnel coming "

In the exact same way nobody every calculates manhattan subway commutes either. Walking to train, waiting for train, trains running local, skipping stops, etc.

And are you really inferring that the subways don't have delays?

There are pros and cons to both - I like that you don't have to watch "schedule" as much with the subways - but you are MUCH more likely to get a seat on the suburban trip, you're much more likely to have one longer ride (as opposed to a bunch of shorter) and you can actually get some work done, some serve drinks.

And, while it can be cold - you just wait in your car - you don't have all the same sweaty underground waiting on both sides...

" think it's the other way around where there's more criticism from those in the 'burbs on city living."

I think you're just projecting. I've been in both, and I've seen a lot more folks - just lookie here - bashing the burbs than the other way around.

> quality of life is good in the city
Some parts, very good, some parts lousy. Its about tradeoffs

> schools are good
SOME schools are good. Lots of lousy ones, even in good neighborhoods in NYC, and even if some schools are good, kid gets to junior high then gets screwed. A good neighborhood pretty much automatically gets you good schools in the burbs (thats why they call them good neighborhoods generally)

> there IS space to be had (you've just got to pay)
Agreed, but this *is* a value game. You can have amazing teachers fly to you for the right price.
You can have culture flown to you for the right price.
But that isn't the discussion we're having. We're talking about people making choices of one vs. the other,a nd what they get for their dollars, so removing cost in a cost-based discussion doesn't make a lot of sense.

> commute (40 minutes TOPS) is better IF you work in the city
I know lots of people with more than 40 minute commutes in the city.
There is just a weak generalization that doesn't move the discussion forward.

> yes, yes, all these hold true for our kin in the country but they wants their cars and their 5+ bedrooms and
> their walk-in closets the size of montana

Or at least not having to bathe in the kitchen
;-)

> No one on Long Island lives any further than 10 minutes from the LIRR. Just ask them.........

There are a WHOLE lotta LIRR stops. Better coverage than the subways in Queens for comparison.
It helps that its an island on the thin side, which doesn't take that much time to cut across.

"clarification of my Ivy versus SUNY/CUNY argument. I think someone with the ability to get into a Harvard (no scholarship) but goes to a lesser school (state school?) with scholarship and graduates without loans versus the $100k+ you could have from Harvard is the kid with the advantage (assuming effort put into studies in both places)."

Its an advantage. But, if played right, the Harvard degree will get you that several times over.
Not to mention, I think there is an education to be had from having to pay back and understand the value of money a bit. I graduated with tens of thousands in loans. Would have been nice not to have, yes. But it paid for itself several times over.

More importantly, the data is probably off.

Have you actually seen the financial aid Harvard and Yale give? If your parents make under $100k, you'll pay MUCH less than at a state school! zero parental contribution, and a small student contribution (no loans if you work).

"If you get out of NYC sometimes you will realize there are a lot of very successful people in this country and the world whose road to success didn't go through Harvard."

Noone said otherwise. Does that mean these people would have been less successful if they went to Harvard?

This is a bit of a strawman.

Its not the ONLY way, of course, but in terms of the odds, its a fairly good way to go.

"And most at most companies and industries no one cares where you went, but what you can accomplish."
Only if you get into the company in the first place, and the company before that where you got your opportunity and built your skills, and so on.

One good door early on really make a big, big difference.

Again, it doesn't mean you can't success any other way. But it seems to be a very good bet.

"River. We forget that fortunes are also made in construction, food, furniture, energy, technology, all of which might be going on in places other than NY or even SF, LA, Boston, etc."

Places so far ivy leaguers can't reach them?

What you don't realize is that many Ivy Leaguers take their degrees and go back to their communities. Yale has programs where they send kids to Louisville and Cleveland for internships. Many stay, and build careers.

And thats the formal stuff.

Tons of kids were already going back to their hometowns or new towns.

You think its a disadvantage that they have a great education and credentials?

"If you're going to engage in all this "cheaper than" analysis, this should be a major factor/cost and not swept under the rug."

spaceboy (good name), nobody is sweeping anything under the rug, this is just us pointing out the major flaws in your premise.

2 hour commute differential isn't honest, and spoils the debate.

"Spaceboy - and a lot here still miss the fact that many suburbanites don't commute into the city."

and that, too.

"I'm not missing that fact. I'm simply saying if you increase your commute by ... 1 hr each way, the time adds up."

And if martians keep landing on your lawn, you have a lot of cleanup to do.

If money falls onto your house, its cheaper to maintain.

If pigs had wings...

If the only way spaceboy can make an argument is to come up with dishonest comparisons...

who on this board thinks that swe needs to get a life?

10023, a couple of days ago on this thread you challenged me (in a positive intellectual way not petty argumentative or personal which we see too much of on SE)about diversity, especially as it relates to schools and whether individual public schools were ever truly diverse even back in the ancient days when yours truly received her NYC education.

Because I hate not knowing what I think I should know, I just ordered a book called "The Strike That Changed New York" which is about a prolonged teacher's strike in the late 1960s which apparently had a lot to with integration as they called it then (as I mentioned, there were a lot fewer hues in the rainbow to consider in those days). I remember that strike, but only in that I missed a shit ton of school which I regarded as 100% positive (I'm sure until we had to make it up to state minimums). So my perspective on the events are rather skewed by the perspective of a fourth (I think, maybe fifth) grader and anyone who I might ask that could remember from a more balanced viewpoint is alas dead. I'm very interested in what this book tells me, although if I don't know if the author has his/her own political agenda.

I also ordered the book "Fires" about how the burning of New York in the 1970s was some thought out urban plan...huh?

And you thought being a history geek was all fun and games!

Yes, integration was the death knell to many functional city public school systems. In the interest of having diversity (theoretically a good thing), what ended up happening was much worse.

I am a fellow history geek.

I've read a lot over the years on integration, and I'm always curious as to the workings of any large public school system in the UK, Canada and U.S. In any public system with a large and heterogeneous population, administrators in the last 30 years have struggled to find a way to ensure equal delivery to all (as in how to foil the attempts of people who can buy their way in with real estate or test prepping or whatever).

In smaller cities like Berkeley, CA, kids are divided by lottery so there is no possibility of moving to a "better" nabe. In Montclair, NJ, kids "apply" and I betcha there is some attempt as social engineering to get diversity. I'm not sure that the latter is constitutional.

Canada has gotten a bye with respect to the huge Asian influx over the last 30 years to metro Toronto and metro Van because the point-based immigration system ensured striver-immigrant-children in general. Regional amalgamation has also meant more even funding across neighborhoods of different RE prices. There are some regions with one school board the size of all Westchester schools put together.

London has many of the same issues as NYC, and the catchment area of popular schools can vary yearly depending on how many people apply. Catchment area ensures priority, does not guarantee placement. Add to that state-funded parochial schools with preference for parishioners... Tony Blair's kids went to state-funded Catholic school.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/11/nyregion/11power.html?src=me&ref=nyregion

Hey SWE, my commute is 12 minutes on foot. Several people in my office have similar commutes. It isn't that rare. Several other people in my office commute in from near the PA border. They commute three hours more than me each day. Why can't you accept that these are real tradeoffs people make?

"In the exact same way nobody every calculates manhattan subway commutes either. Walking to train, waiting for train, trains running local, skipping stops, etc.

And are you really inferring that the subways don't have delays?"

Oh sure they do. Unfortunately the suburban commuters get delays on NJ Transit and then delayed again on the MTA. If they need to make a 9am meeting the safe bet is to take an earlier train which is usually 35-50 minutes before thier normal one, wasting even more of thier day.

The commuting is very different from suburbs - that train schedule is your Bible. No one thinks about a schedule when they commute on foot or by subway, except for the late nights and weekends now with the cuts. Commuting from suburbs by car is unpredictable. Sometimes it's great; sometimes it's a logjam.

29 minutes on the express LIRR to Penn Station, runs frequently. one of the richest zipcodes in the country. 1/2 acre for sale with somewhat damaged house (still larger than a Manhattan 2 bedroom),and still cheaper. Great schools, high acceptance rate at Ivies. 1/2 acre buildable lot. Can be delivered with house repaired or not, depending on your desire to build one of those huge ostentatious mansions that surround the area. Taxes under 15k and soon to be reduced. One minute walk to elementary school, walk to houses of worship (of both denominations). rustic, quiet, near dead end. 5 minutes to LIRR express train.

If your goig to advertise a house for sale, why not include the price?

not officially listed anywhere, but try 1.15 as a knockdown, a bit higher with repair. the land is the main component in this area. gorgeous houses have been bought for 1.3 and knocked down. chacun a son gout. de gustibus non disputandum est. and for the the ethnics amongst you, al taam v'al re'ach. ain l'hitvakeach.

You definitely need better marketing strategies. If this is the extent of your marketing, you will never sell the place.

yup, you are 100% correct. not sure i want to. thanks, you are correct. don't need the money to buy, don't need the money to rent. just on a whim, I posted on the suburbs thread.. but the data is accurate, FWIW. I'm ambivalent.

"Hey SWE, my commute is 12 minutes on foot. Several people in my office have similar commutes. It isn't that rare. Several other people in my office commute in from near the PA border. They commute three hours more than me each day. Why can't you accept that these are real tradeoffs people make?"

Why can't you accept that picking the extremes and using that as evidence for overall is dishonest?

I have friends who live in Manhattan with 50 minute commutes, and friends who go from the burbs to offices near penn station 30 minutes door to door (not to mention the ones with 10 minute drives to other parts of the burbs). And I don't use those examples to demonstrate the average commutes. There are all sorts. And, yes, citydwellers will likely have shorter on average, but lets not be dumb.

Of course there are tradeoffs. But if you want to compare, you do so honestly.

Not with this 3 hour differential somebody made up to justify their own sad existence.

This is obviously a gloomy addition to the conversation but an important one I think. What are the odds of a massive attack of some sort on NYC? I have some friends with kids who say this was a big factor in choosing the burbs.

I will not even get into how much better it is for my children and wife, but suffice to say that we though it would be me "making a sacrifice" to commute every day, and in fact, the commute is short, pleasant and enjoyable.

I used to live in the city and had to walk to a train, wait for a train, walk from the train to my office. Took me at least 45 min and I often times was hot, cold, wet, etc.

I now live in southern Westchester and am at work (UES) in 35 min average (average). Last week I was doing it in 25 (bumper to bumper on a Friday is 45-55) My drive time is often my most quiet time of the day, or I can choose to work via cell phone (speaker of course).

I should have listened to other people years before, but I always though a commute was a full hour and wanted no part.

MAV: driving to work is not the norm.

"driving to work is not the norm."

Sure it is. Plenty of people drive to work, otherwise all the highways heading into the city would be empty.

You saying the majority of people commuting to the city from S. Westchester drive? I think not. Plenty <> majority ("norm")

I commute out of the city every day to NJ. I pass thousands of cars going in the opposite direction.

I know that many do not commute from the suburbs by car, but many do. I do not know the figures except to know that both are substantial. The way I figure it, most of the Dr's I know from out of town drive, as do most of the higher end financial types. Both professions are provided either with parking or substantially subsidized rates.

Also added to the car-commuters are all the government employees with their parking permits. These come to the 10,000's and don't just consume traffic capacity but much of the legal and illegal parking in lower manhattan (not to mention around every firehouse and police precinct.)

Subsidize something (parking, road during congested hours, etc.) and too much of it will be consumed.

>> If the only way spaceboy can make an argument is to come up with dishonest comparisons...

SWE: What in the world are you talking about? You're actually arguing that it's more likely that someone in manhattan has a 50 minute commute vs. moving out of the city would increase your commute by 1 hour?

If you live and work in the city and you move out, I would EASILY budget a 1 hr increase, unless you happen to work near penn station or grand central. If you did work near penn station or grand central, it would then certainly be a PRO for your choice to move to burbs since your commute time would not increase.

"I should have listened to other people years before, but I always though a commute was a full hour and wanted no part."

Well, this is why folks like spaceboy don't help the conversation.

"What in the world are you talking about? You're actually arguing that it's more likely that someone in manhattan has a 50 minute commute vs. moving out of the city would increase your commute by 1 hour?"

No, I'm not... but feel free to argue against whatever strawman you'd like.

"If you live and work in the city and you move out, I would EASILY budget a 1 hr increase"

Yes, which is why your analyis has been useless since the beginning. That is simply rediculous.

"MAV: driving to work is not the norm. "
______________

I'm sorry, isn't this the form which mostly discusses homes WAY above $1MM? I did not realize we cared so much about the "norm". And how exactly do you determine what is the norm for millions of people anyway?

Either way, there are substantial numbers of people driving to the city every day from all directions

I live UWS, work downtown and have to change trains twice. My commute is 30 minutes door to door.
If I moved to NJ, my commute would be 15 mins to train station, 30-45 for train and then another 20 mins from penn station to downtown, not including waiting for your 2 connections.

Anyway my point wasn't necessarily that every commute will increase 1hr (thanks for twisting it by the way), but rather that you should calculate the commute increase, which is likely significant. My calculation was based off 1 hr, because that was the calculation I used for my own situation/analysis. The premise applies even for a 30 minute increase.

SWE, I find it hypocritical that you're "picking on me" on straw-man theories when there are plenty of pro-suburb pushers that are claiming more efficient $/sf but it takes forever to get to the city as well.

> I live UWS, work downtown and have to change trains twice. My commute is 30 minutes door to door.

What cross streets do you live at and work at? Lets see how accurate that is.

> My calculation was based off 1 hr, because that was the calculation I used for my own situation/analysis.

Which is a huge mistake here, picking the outlier.

> The premise applies even for a 30 minute increase.

Of course the premise applies, noone argued that.

But a correct premise with really, really bad data gets you really, really lousy answers...

and anyone listening to you would have gotten that.

Alright then, here's a challenge for you. Give me a list of towns in NJ with 30-45 minute commutes with good school systems at a good discount $/ppsf to manhattan.

If you can give me that, I will concede that my commute increase estimates are high. If you cannot, then I guess you are the one strawman-ing.

"Give me a list of towns in NJ with 30-45 minute commutes with good school systems at a good discount $/ppsf to manhattan."

Fort Lee, Leonia, Tenafly, Closter, Demarest, Cresskill.

Hey - somebody told me that my name was mentioned in this thread. It kinda warmed my heart to see it up there.

Thanks, I'll look into these. I know of Fort Lee and Tenafly, but not the others.
My impression is that you're stretching on Fort Lee as good school district, but I'll check.

Interestingly, Tenafly is on my radar. But it's not clear if its significantly cheaper, because i haven't seen the houses in person, just on websites.

The houses that I like on websites are not cheaper than manhattan (purchase price-wise and tax wise).
The debate would be UWS classic six vs. house in Tenafly.

I currently live in Tenafly. which houses are you looking at?

I moved from NYC exactly a year ago. i don't necessarily think it has been cheaper (sometimes by my choice) than the city was. Likely, I would be spending less per month if I stayed in the city butthere are a lot of other things involved

sniper, I don't remember precisely. I was just looking at ballpark figures. I remember seeing some "newer" family properties that interested me, but were same as family 2-3 BR's pricing on UWS. The ones at a discount looked fishy or older or had weird layouts.

Incidentally, what are the commuting options for Tenafly into NYC?

I drive in everyday but you can also take the bus. There is currently no commuter train station in Tenafly.

If you want a commuter train, look into Ramsey or Ridgewood. The NJT buses are a 3rd class form of transportation. You can literally die waiting for them during off peak hours and weekends.

AvUWS: "I think someone with the ability to get into a Harvard (no scholarship) but goes to a lesser school (state school?) with scholarship and graduates without loans versus the $100k+ you could have from Harvard is the kid with the advantage (assuming effort put into studies in both places)."

Many graduates of Harvard get into super-high-paying career tracks like Investment Banking which are simply not available to ANY graduates of SUNY/CUNY no matter how high their GPAs. Turning down Harvard, for most people, is incredibly bad advice.

And regarding commuting time, the length of the train ride from the suburban train station to Penn station can be significantly shorter than the real average door-to-door commuting time.

bob_d: again, i would love to see numbers on this, but what percentage of harvard grads end up in investment banking or biglaw? do many more choose more modest career paths? if so, is harvard (or TT privates, as i've mentioned before) worth it?

> Give me a list of towns in NJ with 30-45 minute commutes with good school systems at a good discount $/ppsf to
> manhattan.

I don't know Jersey so well, but on LI... Great Neck train is 18-20 minutes. Five Towns trains are in the 34 minute ranges. Stuff in between has times in between. All fantastic school systems, Westinghouse, ivies, blabbity bla.

" If you cannot, then I guess you are the one strawman-ing."

You don't understand what a strawman is.

"Many graduates of Harvard get into super-high-paying career tracks like Investment Banking which are simply not available to ANY graduates of SUNY/CUNY no matter how high their GPAs. Turning down Harvard, for most people, is incredibly bad advice."

yup. even for kids middle of the pack, especially the athletes.

"bob_d: again, i would love to see numbers on this, but what percentage of harvard grads end up in investment banking or biglaw? do many more choose more modest career paths? if so, is harvard (or TT privates, as i've mentioned before) worth it? "

If you add in consulting, also big $$$, I'd say it was 25-50% of the folks who weren't doing totally different fields, medicine, etc. Almost everyone I know who wanted finance got in there somewhere.

"Almost everyone I know who wanted finance got in there somewhere."

I would say the same thing about the top performers I knew from SUNY and CUNY. I knew a lot of achievers from both who went to top B-Schools and then on to whatever they wanted, and with less debt holding them back. Also one who did a joint Binghamton/COlumbia undergrad and went on to top career in IB without an advanced degree. My point was not to choose between mid-Harvard vs. top SUNY/CUNY but to do it also without the ball n Chain of huge debt. It really does make a diff, especially if someone ends up in IB and doesn't like it! (Or wants to try being an entrepreneur.)

I will stand by it given my experience with people having lived it all. I think much of the disagreement with it comes from a NYC-caused bias that IB/top-law are about the only ways to riches and happiness.

FYI - my history includes NYC private schools, Ivy league undergrad and grad, lots of non-tech, non-pharma entrepreneurship and business experience with fly-over country.

I just dislike that people close their eyes to the fact that there are lots and lots of opportunities in the world, especially if you are willing to work hard and take chances.

SWE - My first post on this thread referenced the time to commute from Park Slope vs. Montclair according to Google Maps. It is about a 40 minute difference each way. Try it yourself, it isn't hard to do! But you then accuse me of being dishonest by characterizing a typical difference as being an hour. You call it science fiction.

"And if martians keep landing on your lawn, you have a lot of cleanup to do."

Is this cherry-picking, or is 40 minutes categorically different from 60 minutes on planet somewhere else? Can you conceive of people who don't have a direct train and transfer in exotic places like Summit or Seacaucus?

"And, yes, citydwellers will likely have shorter on average, but lets not be dumb.And, yes, citydwellers will likely have shorter on average, but lets not be dumb."

Your repetition reveals your insecurity. You have good instincts.

Uwsmom: "i would love to see numbers on this, but what percentage of harvard grads end up in investment banking or biglaw? do many more choose more modest career paths? if so, is harvard (or TT privates, as i've mentioned before) worth it?"

Getting hired by BIGLAW depends nearly entirely on the law school you graduate from. Close to 100% of Harvard Law School grads have the option to work at BIGLAW if that’s what they want, so HLS is beyond any shadow of a doubt worth the tuition, but I thought we were talking about undergraduate school.

There's a good chance that choosing a "modest" career path makes Harvard even more important, because the really desirable "modest" jobs are often just as hard to get into as investment banking. Anyone can get a job in government if you don't mind working in cubicle and doing meaningless grunt work, but if you want a cool and interesting job involving policy, then that Harvard degree will help a lot.

I'm all in favor of trashing the prestige-based system, and hiring people based on objective measures of what they know, measured by something fair like tests, but that's not the way the world works.

"Is this cherry-picking, or is 40 minutes categorically different from 60 minutes on planet somewhere else"

When the examples I've given are 20 minute difference (possibly less if you're near the train), and your example case is 40, and you instead go with 60, and then you double it each day, then...

yes, saying 2 hours a day is off to the point of being dishonest.

> Your repetition reveals your insecurity.

wow, you really must not have a case if you are resorting to an extra hitting of control V.
man, are you projecting!

lol

"Getting hired by BIGLAW depends nearly entirely on the law school you graduate from. Close to 100% of Harvard Law School grads have the option to work at BIGLAW if that’s what they want, so HLS is beyond any shadow of a doubt worth the tuition, but I thought we were talking about undergraduate school."

And worth saying that at some law schools few if any will have that option.

Undergrad is not nearly as clear cut, because everyone takes separate paths. But, in each "sector", I think you'll find the same story. Of my classmates who wanted finance, they generally got somewhere (I'd say 80%). Consulting, probably around there, too. Or look at the incoming brand management class at say a procter and gamble. very heavy ivy.

>"There's a good chance that choosing a "modest" career path makes Harvard even more important, because the really desirable "modest" jobs are often just as hard to get into as investment banking."""

agreed. You won't get as clear a data set as with a grad school, but I think you see some consistent examples across industries.

"but if you want a cool and interesting job involving policy, then that Harvard degree will help a lot."

Not to mention, once you're in, connections do still help. And your college will have a lot to do with that.

"I'm all in favor of trashing the prestige-based system, and hiring people based on objective measures of what they know, measured by something fair like tests, but that's not the way the world works. "

I'm with you in principle... but the ivies have been getting more and more objective. More kids come from public schools and lower incomes than every before. Some will sneak in, sure, but you're still talking about a pretty merit-based bunch in the first place (especially with Harvard and Yale essentially becoming cheaper than other options for lower/middle income kids).

And the ones that slid in don't do as well, and they might have some job opportunities, but they're not getting the top of the top.

It is apples to oranges.

And I like having a car even in the city. I live in alphabet city where I can park. I could not imagine having to spend rainy weekend days or a heatwave holed up in my apt or having to take a 2+ hour public transport ride to get out of manhattan

True, apples to oranges. Some people wouldn't be caught dead in city, some wouldn't be caught dead in suburbs. We're on a manhattan-focused RE board, so guess what....

Personally, I don't think I'll ever leave Manhattan again, so my preferences are clear, but I know that some of the anti-suburb arguments are just sour grapes (and sometimes the other way, but there are fewer of those here).

Pros and cons on both, but the burbs are certainly cheaper if you do apples to apples, or you get more for the same $$.

UNTIL..."somebody loses an eye." Or their life.

My friend's mother died recently, getting hit by the 57th Street bus, crossing the intersection of First ave. & E.57th st. She had lived in a building on that corner, for decades. Crossed that street, probably ten thousand or so times. She died a few yards away from her home.

Then, there are those who commute into the city, have car crashes on the highways, and die.

"Ashes to ashes,
all fall down..." ("Ashes To Ashes" , Bobby Weir ; Grateful Dead )

Ask A Native New Yorker: Now That I'm A Parent Should I Move To The Suburbs?
http://gothamist.com/2013/10/18/ask_a_native_new_yorker_3.php
Are you relatively new to this fine metropolis? Don't be shy about it, everyone was new to New York at one time... except, of course, those battle-hardened residents who've lived here their whole lives and Know It All. One of these lifers works among us at Gothamist—publisher Jake Dobkin grew up in Park Slope and currently resides in Brooklyn Heights. He is now fielding questions—ask him anything by sending an email here, but be advised that Dobkin is "not sure you guys will be able to handle my realness." We can keep you anonymous if you prefer; just let us know what neighborhood you live in.

This week's question comes from a Cobble Hill resident who just had a kid and is considering moving to the suburbs.

Dear Native New Yorker,

I am a 10 year New York transplant. My wife and I have been living in Cobble Hill peacefully, minding our own business, for the duration... And then we had a baby. The little guy is now three months old and we are deciding whether to raise him in the city or head out to the greener pastures of country living. Thoughts?

Sincerely,

City Rat / Country Mouse

A Native New Yorker replies:

Dear Rat Mouse,

You should definitely leave New York. Hit the road! Vamoose! Ged da fuuuuhhhck oud. There's no time like the present: if you start looking for a house now, your kid can be enjoying the clean air and stupefying boredom of suburban life by Christmas!

If you don't mind spending two hours a day commuting, don't get suicidally depressed shopping at the White Plains Mall, and look forward to schlepping your kids by car to every appointment they have for the next 18 years, well, my friend, you have a strength of character that we natives do not. Therefore, you owe it to us to leave to New York, and to make room for those of us who have to stay. This is a moral obligation and a sacrifice you must make for the greater good and to reduce competition for real estate.

Sure, this will screw up your kids. Growing up amongst a racial and economic monoculture has a way of producing fragile offspring. The suburban kids are always the ones who get to college and immediately overdose on cocaine or krokodil or drink themselves to death, because they never gained the wisdom you get from smoking dust in middle school. Likewise, have you noticed that whenever a white kid gets murdered in LES, like nine times out of ten he's from Westchester? That could be because he never got the healthy fear that comes from repeatedly getting jacked on the train when he was just trying to get to Freshman biology lab.

But I digress, and anyway, by the time your kid is old enough to drive, everything will probably be in cyberspace or delivered via Amazon Prime, and he won't ever have to leave Hastings-on-Hudson or No-Poors-on-the-Sound or wherever it is you're moving. At any rate, you can stop reading here.

Now that this tourist is gone, I'd like to get real with the rest of you: people who can't imagine leaving and never will, but who, by choice or by accident, have found themselves with child. Here are my top five survival tips for middle income families, acquired over the last few years of raising kids on an average professional salary:

1) One bedrooms are much, much cheaper than two or three bedrooms. Use this to your advantage! A pressure wall and a fold-out couch can turn your tiny one-bedroom apartment into a microscopic three bedroom (you sleep in the living room, and each kid sleeps in half the bedroom you just split. It's probably illegal but with two bunk beds you can get 4 kids set up this way!). I have lived happily like this for years, and the children seem acceptably well-adjusted. I do sometimes come home to my wife crying because we're 37 and sleeping on a couch, but it's still better than Ardsley. And really, who are you anyway, Mr. Too-Good-for-a-Couch? Your grandparents were living ten to a room on Stanton Street just 100 years ago!

2) Adjust your mindset, man. All that stuff you think you need—like a big TV, a car, "a bed"—that's just our deranged consumer culture trying to enslave you in a life of debt and conformity. Go minimal: get rid of everything you can: your books, your CDs, all that shit you bought on Etsy. This will have a calming effect on the mind, and leave more room for the three hundred pounds of stuff each new kid will bring into your apartment.

3) Learn to use the city like a pro. You don't need a backyard when you've got a park. You don't need a car when you've got the best transit system in the world and a sturdy bike. You don't need a good school in your neighborhood when you can rent an overpriced apartment near a good school for one year, establish residency, and then move. It's an undeniable fact that the average New Yorker can live better than 99% of people who live or who have ever lived in the world. Join the museums, find the best cheap restaurants, go to off-Broadway shows, enjoy graffiti. Most of this stuff is cheap, and you can often take your kids for free. It'll make them the most interesting kids in their 2025 NYU dorm.

4) Most importantly, keep a sense of humor about things. These problems we face—not having enough money or enough space—in the scheme of things they're small and solvable. You could be getting shot in Syria or starving to death in Darfur; if your worst problem is that you might need to move to Kensington or Bed-Stuy, consider yourself blessed. And to the extent that you still suffer, embrace that suffering. It is through the pain of city living that a Native New Yorker gains the deep wisdom for which we are justly known.

5) If you ever find yourself doubting your decision to live and die in New York, I recommend reading The Ice Storm by Rick Moody, The Virgin Suicides by Jeffrey Eugenides, and Cheever's The Swimmer. That'll scare your ass straight.

N.B.: If you're still not sure, listen to the Kinks' Shangri-La, which was the greatest song ever written about the suburbs until Arcade Fire put out their 2010 album. Since then, the greatest song about the suburbs has been a two-way tie between Suburban War and Sprawl II. Have you ever noticed songs about the suburbs are really depressing?

Here's another city advantage. City kids can eventually take public transportation (usually around middle school). In the suburbs, not only do you need one or two cars, someone needs to drive the children around until they can drive, and even then, you may prefer to drive them around because teenagers are the worst drivers around.

What is the age for children at which parents make this decision?

Jake Dobkin advocates for the level of diversity that can be found in City places like Park Slope and Cobble Hill. None.

I love what Jake wrote about the way the city used to be. now, it's almost the same as suburbia minus space and car. if your child, god forbid, wants to be active and participate in sports, here comes the car, at least a zip car. so you're only left with no space.

as for public transport, how many 12 yr olds you see on trains without parents????? none. this isn't the 70-90s. 90% of the city and the surrounding yuppy/hipster nieghbs are populated by people who move to the city after in was clensed of what it used to be. it's more Idaho then brooklyn.