EXPOSING Brokers Who Lie About Square Footage

i think you're wrong and owe the brokers an apology. Corcoran is actually famous for not listing a square footage on their website unless that number is stated in the building's official offering plan or architecture diagrams. So if somebody is lying, it's not the brokers.
But anyway, I looked at the floorplan and 700 feet seems reasonable to me. Notice the apartment is 23 feet wide (10'9 for the bedroom + 12' for the living room + about 3 inches for the walls). The floorplan is drawn to scale, so get a ruler and measure that 23 feet wide, then measure the same space against the height. That's 23*23 (529), plus there's a strip left over. Looks like that strip is about the right size to make the total 700 square feet.

Of course, not all of that space is usable -- a lot is taken up by the counters and such. But if you gut rennovated the apartment down to just an empty box, then yeah, you'd have something very close to 700 square.

Someone should do an expose on buyers who waste everyones time by dragging people around town to look at apartments they can never afford, lying about their income, faking mortgage approvals, bragging about how they make 500k a year on wall street when they dont even know how to pick a decent mutual fund. Please spare us your overblown indignation. You are probably more unethical in your own particular line of work or some useless bored housewife with nothing else to do.

hardly, tavistmorph. Paul LeMarc Brown at Corcoran has a "700" sqaure foot apartment that's like 450, 500 at the most. i am so sick of this.

http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&ListingID=1085218

O, do we have another bored rich housewife or overly pampered girlfriend here in "downtown_girl"? Number one career shopping all day and then when bored lecturing people on the real estate industry on Streeteasy? Why dont you stick to what you do best, earning your living by lying down on your back somewhere while milking your "honey's" checkbook.

brokerzrule, you cant be this angry on a sunday night?? unless you are going back to a career which you detest? which sounds like something you aren't very good at based on your clientele mentioned above. maby the mutual fund industry as an alternative?

tavistmorph, you seem to know what you are talking about. i follow you explanation but am not sure where you get the additional strip. when they quote footage of the kitchen are they quoting "walkable space"? it seems a bit of strech to make up the additional 150 foot from the counters etc.

brokerzrule - so angry, so frustraded...tisk tisk tisk
downdtown_girl.....have you seen that apartment?> there is no floorplan, how do you know the true size?

Of course this isn't proof of anything, but the monthly on the apartment is $422 (in this part of the EV that's not completely impossible for a 700 sqft apt, but more likely that it is indeed smaller)

tavistmorph - I don't follow your math/eyeballing. The width is 10'9"+12=22.75'. The length is 17'6"+7'=24.5'. 22.75*24.5 = 557sf. That, of course, excludes the walls. Let's suppose the walls are 3" thick, as you said. That's another 25sf, which gets us to ~582sf.

So we're missing 118sf. Looks like we're missing a whole other room!! I'm looking for it on the floorplan and just can't find it!

Let's let the brokers explain their calculation.

Note: not all floorplans are accurate. Unless someone specifically represents the measurements on a floorplan to be accurate, they may not be. I was surprised that the plan I inherited for my apt. when I purchased it has incorrect measurements on it. The actual square footage is more than the plan indicates. Often plans issued when a sponsor first markets a coop typically get passed on from one owner to the next--perhaps for decades, without being modified. Many owners simply keep that plan in a file and pass it on to the next owner and so on over the years. Yet, within a givin line of apartments, measurements may vary a bit from one to another to accomodate a duct here, a pipe there, a utility closet behind on a wall on one floor but not another. The sponsor isn't ever going to do a plan for each and every apt. Perhaps they should, but they don't. So while one plan may be issued for a givin line of apartments, the actual measurements of a specific apartment may vary from the plan, and thus square footage may very slightly from one apt. to the next, regardless of the measurements on the floorplan. If one truly wants an accurate measurement, get it done yourself. I wouldn't rely too much on measurements printed on a floorplan unless I confirmed them. At the very least spot check them. We can all bash the brokers, but be serious--they don't have the apartment surveyed. Why would we think they know with certainty? "Because it's their job?" Hey, you're the one shelling out the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Take some responsibility and don't believe everything you're told. P.S. I am not a broker nor do I especially like them generally. I'm must a guy shopping for an apartment and trying to be smart about it.

brokersSTINK, i was at the open house yesterday, sorry i didn't mention that. i figured for that price in the neighborhood the place was a total wreck and that's why there were no pictures. but it's in good shape, it's just TINY. my apartment now is less than 500 square feet, when i got home it felt spacious. i think i was probably generous about the size in my first message.

kylewest, i agree there's always a little room for error, and of course i wouldn't buy before doing my own measurements, but 88 E 3rd St is a flat out lie, not even close.

I bought a place from a Corcoran broker who overestimated the floor size about 10%. I measured it myself before buying, so I wasn't "ripped off" or anything, but the poster who says Corcoran have such high standards is incorrect.

I agree...ive seen the same line apts in the same building and the square footage was 100 sq feet differant...when i asked the broker from the higher sq footage apt, i got no response....

I beleive brokers beleive they are dealing with uninformed, stupid buyers who have absolutely no control over the information at hand. This it what the problem with many brokers are. This is truly an example of false advertising.

Who buys an apartment based on the square footage in a real estate listing? You may go to see an apartment based on square footage, but not solely, it’s a package. No matter how you measure it, certain apartments just *feel* roomier than others. I lived in/rented a 300 sqft apartment in Gramercy which felt HUGE just because the layout was perfect, and it had a ton of light. The apartment layout, the lighting, the furnishings; they all contribute to the size/feel of the apartment. Taking all that into account, brokers overstating square footage in a real estate listing can’t be that egregious -- otherwise, they [brokers] would be sued more frequently.

Mhillqt - I’m not a broker, but I’m guessing you didn’t get a response back about your 100 sqft question; because anyone haggling over 100 sqft, can’t be a serious buyer.

I'm sorry but 100 sqft in cost $100,000 + so it is worth 'haggling' over. In the case of the above apts its 15% of the space.

I disagree Manny1. At a $1100 - $1300 a sqft, haggling over 100 sqft sounds like a serious and, more importantly, educated buyer to me. May not matter to you when you are renting but when buying, it will.

I think the bottom line if you are interested in this apt find another apt in this building with similar size and layout and find out how many shares it represents and what it sold for. I don't think all offering plans have exact square footage particularly for coops. So now the estimate is left to the broker who of course is trying to get the highest price for the seller. Kind of like a butcher who puts the meat on the scale and pushes down a little with his thumb. I don't the think the Broker can get away with this nonsense when selling a condo but I'm sure they try.

Rather than call brokers liars or challenging their integrity, which is completely counter-productive and will do nothing to get a bid accepted on an apartment you like, I would ask take a couple of measurement of the apt., calculate the asking price's per sq.ft. cost, and then bid with a price based on a price per square foot that you feel is fair. Explain to the broker how you came up with your price, and see what the seller says. That's how you negotiate in a business-like way. Don't whine while you wait for people to agree with you or cry about how they puffed up what they are hawking. Argue your case and persuade. So much whining about brokers on here. I know: they are fiduciaries, they are licensed, they are supposed to be professional. Bottom line is they are trying to sell something. Accept that and structure your negotiating strategy accordingly.

I don't think calculating the price based purely on square footage is the best way to go here. We are talking about a co-op here not a condo. I think you should calculate your offer on how many shares of an apt of similar dimensions is represented in this building is and base your offer on what ever the difference of the share amount is. Also of course take into consideration the other factors such as floor #,light, condition etc.

I have to disagree JuiceMan. If you otherwise love the apartment, but the real estate listing overstates by 100sqft, I just can't imagine haggling. Incorporating the info into my offer, yes, but not arguing with a broker about the “real” square footage. It seems like a waste of time, and I'd bet you would likely lose out on the apartment.

Manny1 - these particular apts were at 132 e 35......the first 1 bedroom was offered as 600 sq feet and then a few weeks later another EXACT apt was offered at 700sq feet.......thats a 14% increase in sq footage and they asked approximately 100k more.....all because it was being marketed as a bigger apt....maybe you deal in apts with thousands of sq feet but for us peons buying small 1 bedrooms, 100 sq feet is a lot!

Oh cry me a river. Please. No two apts. are "EXACT"ly the same. They differ in condition, location within the building, views, finishes, maintenance costs. Cost also reflects how anxious a seller is to sell. I could go on and on. You found a 100 sq. ft. discrepancy and attribute the cost difference solely to that. Why?

kylewest, didn't they teach you in lying broker school to at least pretend to be nice?

why wouldn't the broker just take out a tape measure and measure the place before listing? It takes about 20 minutes.

You're funny zizizi. I'm not a broker. I said that already. I'm a regular working NY'er who is selling a coop and planning to rent for a while and then buying. So I'm more focused on the RE market than I would ordinarily be. Everyone who isn't a broker doesn't bash them incessantly. I mean, it's so easy to pick them apart it isn't even fun or entertaining to do it. I don't particularly like most brokers I meet. I think it's a lousy business full of conflicts of interest, and uninformed/misinformed people struggling to make a living in a business most thought would be easy. But honestly, all the whining in the forums. Is it really shocking that NYC isn't Mayberry, and Aunt Bee isn't the seller's broker. Get wise. Buyers need to be as savvy in the NY RE market as they are in the other arenas of their lives in the Big City.

Your right Manny1, I wouldn't haggle and it would be a waste of time. I would move on. But hey, if you want to shell out the extra $100k, there is nothing wrong with that. As you said, it comes down to how bad you want the apartment.

kylewest, Mhillqt was stating that these apts. were in the same building. Price increases / differences can be explained based on building, views, costs etc, but adding 100 sqft (especially if the apartment is in the same line) is tough to understand

michael crespo at citadel management. 62 rivington street apt #9A was listed at 597 sq feet which was the gross -- the actual was 505 sq ft., including outdoor space. god help the poor unsuspecting gal who bought that place. would be less disingenuous to list the actual, but then one couldn't claim the unit was $1021 psf when it was actually $1207 psf. btw, the actual includes the interior wall allotment. just plain wrong.

What about brokers who advertise apartments as "One Bedroom" when in fact they are alcove studios or "junior one bedrooms"? Is there any recourse against these individuals.

Another trick is with duplexes - sometimes they are listed with the sq ft of the upper portion. One thing to note is that often times the upper portion is less only 5'9" tall. This is the case in a particular west 86th building. The broker generally includes the square footage for both the short part and the higher ceiling part. Technically, rooms must have a certain height though to be considered such. So watch the details!

I am assuming people are not buying apartments "sight unseen". If it is listed as a one-bedroom but it is an alcove studio, don't buy it. Recourse? Maybe you are a little pissed off you wasted time looking at it, but what recourse are you looking for? Trick with duplexes? The extra space should be valued at some rate, albeit not the same as a normal ceiling. It is up to the buyer to determine what the space is worth to them, and then submit an offer. It can be annoying to show up to an apartment and have it not be what is advertised. Welcome to NYC! Your recourse is turning around and walking out and seeing the next place. Prices are what they are, and no one is forced to pay asking. Trying to convince a seller/broker an apartment is worth less than the asking price is a waste of time. If you want the apartment, quit bitching and make an offer. Otherwise, someone else will buy it while you are trying to convince yourself it is worth less.

While people who take the time to go to a sight like this are likely to be more conscientious, other buyers are likely being deceived by inflated square footage numbers into believing they're getting more than they really are.

I'd love to hear commentary from a broker about this - what goes on with these square footage numbers? how do some of them end up so inflated? Do you know any people who personally inflate? Is any of them concerned about the potential deception involved, or is this just seen as another thing of which a buyer need beware?

Betutes -- you're wrong. As you said: It’s NYC! You HAVE to blame SOMEONE. In NYC, taking responsibility for yourself is not an option. How else would a list like this survive?

Re: "recourse": When apts are listed, brokers (and sellers) initially 'reach for the sky' and see what happens. Then they re-adjust based, in part, on feedback of those who come to see the apt. By giving feedback to the brokers during open houses or appointed visits, they will be able to assess if their selling tactics are helping or hurting. If you feel they wasted your time through misrepresenting the property, politely saying so is appropriate. In the end, their goal is to sell. If they are engaging in self-defeating behavior, most will alter course. They may not be as receptive to complaints of relatively small discrepancies in square footage because you can just alter your offer accordingly, but misrepresentations about an apt. being a tru 1 bedroom versus an alcove studio or "junior" are different. People who want to buy a one bedroom are generally not going to buy a studio. That kind of misrepresentation is really a waste of everyone's time. Especially if the photos in the ad don't make this apparent. If, however, a floorplan is online with photos making it clear that some puffery is involved, who is really being fooled or hurt?

Good point

This seems to be more an academic argument than anything else. Someone who gets upset enough to seek "recourse" has never look for a place in New York or has been looking for too long.

There's no real standard for this. If you're online, just look at the floorplan and see if the rooms are big enough for you. If it's a loft space, usually the pix give an idea of the ceiling height, though some will say something cagey like "sleeping loft" when you can't stand up in it. If the ceiling height is less than 14', something's gotta give somewhere. Presumably you'll actually go see a place you're interested in and you can tell if it's big enough for you.

The square footage number, especially in Manhattan, with all the ridiculous configurations, including common space, measuring to the outside of the walls, treating an "L" shape like a square, means nothing. I ignore it. Just ask for the room dimensions and start multiplying.