Apartment combo

Come on...need more info. Size of building. Type of building (coop, condo, etc). Construction rules (hours in work day, restrictions on time of year, limit on # of days a reno can take without fines). When you say "renovate" what do you mean? Gut? Just kitchen and baths? What do you plan to have done? Type of reno (budget/mid/luxe)? What is needed to combine the 2 units: just poke a doorway? Remove walls? Have similar combos been done in building already? ARe you certain building dep't will ok it?

coop, 15 floors, about 150 apts.
9-5 construction hours. no seasonal restriction.
renovate one bathroom, slightly enlarge 1 bathroom and put in a stall shower, rip out one kitchen, enlarge the other, washer/dryer, new floors, break through with partial wall removal, built ins over the ac/heater in three rooms, closets, painting. mid range.
3 almost identical combos in the line.

Hello Ues,

A project like yours should take about 8-10 weeks. The chances of you being able to make the bathroom and kitchen bigger are slim, most buildings do not allow wet over dry.

As far as making construction go faster, not much of a chance on that. I would try to hire your contractor prior to closing so you can bring all the paperwork you need to the closing (Scope of work, all necessary licenses)

The big delay in this process is getting board and/or mgt approval of plans. You have to get that AND then submit those to the DOB. This process alone could take 2 months. The actual renovation shouldn't be as long, as long as your building isn't too restrictive.

If you have your plans done before closing (hard if you're not already in the building), that should make things go much faster.

Thanks. Live in the building.
Any ballpark on what it might cost-all inclusive. What should a renovation of a bathroom-medium end,small side-add on to cost. Is is always necessary to redo the plumbing (postwar building)?
Need an architect and expeditor? Can an architect sign off on plans w/o city approval?

My architect creating the drawings that were then submitted to the city for approvals via an expeditor also handled by the architect. The coop approval process does, as noted above, take time. There is a review by the coop engineering firm and usually a back-and-forth between the building engineer/architect and your own to settle any issues. Then the building's person makes a recommendation to the coop board which then makes the final decision about approvals.

Key comment above, is the in 99% of coops WET AREA MAY NOT BE EXTENDED over dry areas. This means no change to bathroom footprint--even to include a closet that was in the hallway into the bathroom. And kitchens must remain where they are--no moving stoves/sinks/fridges an inch into an area that was previously not the kitchen. Opening up kitchen to other areas is not an issue in most cases though. That is, taking down a wall is typically ok; moving a wall defining a kitchen is often not okay.

You may find aspects of this thread helpful, but like most on here, it degenerated into absurdity thanks to the bombastic posts of a handful of regulars.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/8985-tips-on-successfully-renovating-an-nyc-apartment

Sorry--left off the link.

Best case scenario: all drawings, designs, planning and finish selections and specifications somehow already done by you and your architect prior to closing; you can bid the job before you close too, but not many people do that; you might at least select 2-3 contractors you will bid the job to though. After closing:
(1) WEEKS 1-4: submit drawings for building approval (about 4 weeks in most coops including the back-and-forth I described above).
(2) WEEKS 5-8: with final drawings approved by board, bid job out, review bids, and have expeditor file for permits, and get permits (about 3 weeks for all but the permits which no one can really predict--NYC has been very erratic on permits and Dep't of Buildings seems to get into snits every so often which really can delay things. So 3-4 weeks for this but can be longer if there is a DOB problem with permitting.
(3) WEEKS 9-28: Begin demolition and construction. I think 8 weeks is not realistic. You describe a substantial amount of work which includes electricians, plumbers, millwork--all time consuming and fairly pricey. I think to be safe and not disappointed, you should plan on 4 months for this phase and just be very thrilled if it only takes 2.5.

If you break all records, you might be in the place within 4.5 months of closing. More likely it will be 6-8 months.
(3)

I hate ballparking. Devil's in the details. I would redo the plumbing, if you're going to gut the bathroom anyway.

I know that there is a "self-certification" process, where you don't need city approval. But your building may insist on getting DOB approval & to have the plumbing permit pulled - bottom line, it depends on your building. As for expediter, depends on whether your architect works with one or not.

BTW, I did a very similar combination years ago. I tried to hurry the process along by convincing the co-op that interior demolition in preparation for the renovation didn't merit waiting for final drawings, permits, etc. That strategy worked, but IMO, most co-ops are WAY stricter.

Thanks you all so much. It is a daunting process.

ues: if you can devote the time -- a lot of time -- to the prepatory phase when getting ready for the reno, it needed be as daunting as it seems. The key is hyper-organization and just thinking everything through. How will a door open? Will there be enough room to pass if you put a chair where you want it? Will the dishwasher be able to open once you put pulls on the drawers in the kitchen? Do the light switches' placement make sense in terms of how you will move around the apartment and your anticipated use of lighting? Are all areas adequately lit? Can you get to your towel when opening the shower door after showering? Is the backsplash practical in terms of material choice in terms of how and what you tend to cook? Does the space planning make sense without weird angles/nooks/wasted space. Try to see the job in 3 dimensions and walk through it all in your mind. Do all this ahead of time and your change orders will be minimal. It can be fun, actually. No matter how much planning, the final phase involving finish work is admittedly stressful since you don't want one trade damaging what another has done already, but this is just the end-stage and you will survive. I can't say this forcefully enough: you must visit the site as often as possible. Every morning and evening is not too much. Catching things going astray as they occur mean easy correction and saving time. Do this and the end punch list can be minimized--keep up with it as you go along. Don't be discouraged. You can do it! It isn't rocket science--it is about time commitment and focus on details. Be involved! After doing my one bedroom (jr-four) I honestly wish I could now work on a classic-6. My b/f says I have to wait 15 years though! :)

"Can you get to your towel when opening the shower door after showering?"

Blows my mind that some hotel architects don't design their bathrooms with this in mind.

"My b/f says I have to wait 15 years though! :)"

From your numerous and often very intelligent contributions you've posted on Se on this subject, decorator/GC sounds like an occupation for you. Unless you already do something you love even more, or for more money (or both).

I only bring it up after "says I have to wait 15 years though!" and sounds like you really enjoy it

I just renovated a 2/2 in Brooklyn Heights. From date of closing it took 16 weeks, including waiting for permits from the city and review of my plans by the building.

truthskr10: thank you! I do love it all, but I think I have about the greatest job in the world and am not looking to change it all up any time soon. Still, I'm grateful that there seem to be too many things that I love doing and not too few. I'm not especially smart or clever, so I try to make up for it with a lot of focused attention to detail and organization. I was/am a pain in the butt as a client since I am so involved in things I do, but I like to think that when all is said in done, the people with whom I work appreciate it because I typically avoid crisis that arise from lack of preparation.

That said, though, some things are just bound to crop up. In my reno, for example, a kitchen measurement was 4" off--the only miscalculation in the entire job. The result was I thought I would have to live with the refrigerator in the living room and a bay of cabinets that were too deep and thus stuck out. It was only a 72 hour nightmare though. A meeting with my architect, GC and kitchen contractor on site let us hash it out and figure out what went wrong and how to correct it. They all were very calm since I suppose this sort of thing happens regularly enough and they all knew it would be worked out--I was a lunatic and would likely be calmer next time I went through a reno. But it all worked and it is "perfect" now. My mantra to the GC was "Do not fear the word "perfect"--embrace it. They hated me, but they loved me too. We all parted with hugs and smiles at job's end.

Now where's that classic 6 that is waiting for me....?

ErikinBH--do you have any tips on successful renos to share? That's a pretty terrific time frame you met.

We all fear the word perfect, we do try to embrace it but we are human beings

I'm a big fan of keep it simple. I've tried varying approaches over the last 10 years, as a veteran of 3 (gut) kitchen renos, 8 bathroom renos and 3 (gut) renovations (including 2 apt combinations). All in Manhattan.

1) If it ain't broken, don't fix it. If you can, live in the apt as-is to figure out what works and what doesn't work. If the towel placement is fine, don't change it in your reno.
2) To stick to a budget, eliminate custom components. One of the smaller (but annoying) mistakes I've made in one kitchen reno was to do non-standard kitchen cab sizes. It was a beautiful custom job at a very palatable price, but I should have made the cabinet maker make "standard" (i.e. Ikea sizes) wherever possible so I could get off-the-shelf pantry inserts, drawer inserts, etc. Don't go nuts on the custom millwork, IMO, unless it's your forever apt.
3) Find out what you need to become expert on and find out what you don't. This is quite difficult. Sometimes you make poor decisions because you don't ask enough questions or the right questions of the experts.
4) Some things are not easy to get right, irrespective of who you hire. Mosaic tile, for example, is not easy to install and while your GC may be competent, the person doing the tiling needs to be carefully supervised because it's not easy to do perfectly and the little flaws will jump out at you.

Well said nyc,

I think custom kitchen cabinets sometimes are a waste of money. Filler pieces are used in almost every case anyway. I am doing a project with a designer, which i would consider med- high end, what the designer is doing in this case is having us install Ikea cabinets in the kitchen but in two areas we are custom making the cabinets and matching the doors, best of both worlds

Other things to think about:

1) Post-reno - if there is something you really hate and was a mistake, if it's in the budget, change it. I installed 2 white marble basketweave mosaic floors. Classic, but I chose honed - impossible to keep clean.
Looked good for about 10 secs. I had it ripped out after a year (carefully).
2) Flooring is something that has a huge impact that is not easily fixable. Ask MANY questions, and make sure
that whoever has installed it has a lot of experience with that type of flooring and the conditions under which you are using it.

Since you are doing a combo, things to think about in your design:
1) Are washer & dryer permissible in the kitchen that's to be removed? That's a fantastic place for it usually, and if there is room, add a laundry sink & storage.
2) Usually, the studio ends up being a (master) bedroom suite.

Hi Thanks for all the help. When all of you did your combos and reno did you redo the wiring-make it one meter or do you still get two bills.
So far one contractor said the minimum for a renovated bathroom in his opinion is 25k (sink, toilet and bathtub all in the same place). this seems kind of high to me.

Ues

25 is very fair

Purchases: 8-10k
Contractor: 17k

You can spend less for your purchases but I have found for a medium to high-end bathroom thats what it usually costs
You can find a cheaper contractor but the work might not be as nice

Simple rule: Whatever the contractor tells you the length of time will be to start and finish the renovation, double it.

UES: 17k is high-ish for a contractor to do standard bathroom IMO, it's just labor. But it all depends on how strict the building is, and what kind of insurance they want. There are co-ops that are significantly more lax. For example, there is a building right by me that "allows" the super to demo & gut reno bathrooms in the building. Cost of labor < 1k. The most frustrating part for me in determining NYC labor costs is to get to a number that:
1) Allows the people working with their hands installing your bathroom get paid well. Too many GCs subcontract to day laborers and the like. Fine, if the work gets done, but too often the subs don't get paid. In speaking to the people working on-site, I've heard too many stories of "what, you're paying XYZ? I'm only getting a tenth of that".
2) Pay the GC appropriately for managing the job, overhead, etc. It's hard to run a biz in NYC "on the books" and I also want the GC to be compensated fairly for risk.

Primer is finishing a job for me right now. On time and on budget. In terms of costs, I priced out 4 contractors - he was right in the middle. Could I have saved on the contractor costs - maybe. But I don't have the advantage of having a licensed contractor as a friend. I needed to make sure I hired someone who was professional and responsive. My gut told me after interviewing the 4 contractors that Primer was the one to go with. It was the best decision I made. I saved costs by pricing out kitchen cabinets, counter tops, etc. In doing your renovations, consider where you can afford to make a mistake and where you can't. Primer is so helpful on these boards to random folks for free. Imagine how he is when he is working for you.

Does anybody have experience with combining the electricity vs keeping the electricity separate when combining apts. I was told it would save a lot of money if I kept them separate.

Ask yourself this question - how much is it worth to a buyer if the electricity is on one breaker panel and/or one bill? IMO, it's not worth anything. With paperless billing, you are not getting 2 paper bills, and if things are working well, you would not visit the breaker panel very much at all.

BTW, I kept the electricity separate (3 separate bills).

Am keeping the electrisity separate as suggested. Thanks
Another issue just cropped up... When buying the 2nd apartment do you notify the bank who is holding the mortgage on the first? Is there any way a bank can prevent a combination?

nyc - isn't there a base-level bill for any con-ed account you have, then usage above that? if so, it would be cheaper to have 1 bill. not to mention easier.

Printer: Good point. Basic service charge is $15.75. But it costs thousands to combine, it would take a long time to recoup.

The building buys electricity in bulk so I don't think there is an extra charge.