What's a "middle-class" New Yorker to do?

" I do believe that home ownership is one of the hallmarks of a "middle-class" life in this country."

some other hallmarks include having a wife, 2.5 kids, and belonging to a social organization of some sort. but people tend to leave those out and concentrate on the homeownership. you sound like a nice guy. stay away from nj, they will eat you alive. and then throw you back across the river.

"... and belonging to a social organization of some sort..."

Does NAMBLA count?

Where's WTushy?

Does NAMBLA count?

want to know how dense i am? until very recently i didn't know it was a real organization, just a joke from south park

Maybe the virgin living in midtowner east knows of it?

You could consider Upper Manhattan or Brooklyn. It all depends whether you like these areas. I live on 157th and enjoy it but you can read through threads to get all angles. I would have also moved to Brooklyn but the access to the 1 train (my husband gets on the 1 at end of our block and off the 1 right at his office)swayed us to where we are now. Also, you can easily rent in either location within your budget before committing to buying.

I agree with LucilleIsSorry - I'd avoid NJ. taxes are too volatile for me and it's not as easy as it seems to commute in/out.

Good luck.

To me the answer in the long run hugely depends on whether you are single (and plan to stay that way) or plan to marry and have kids (or already there).

In my experience, a single person can live a pretty decent lifestyle in NYC (even in "prime" Manhattan) on $100K, although obviously nothing extravagant.

For a family with kids, even if each spouse makes $100K, it's a very different calculation. You either have to make serious compromises on space (I knew a family that raised twin boys in a junior 4 that they converted to a 2-bedroom, and they seemed ok with it), or live outside of Manhattan, like you're planning to do, or find other creative solutions.

Either way, your rent vs. buy dilemma is pretty typical of the NYC RE market. Tons of people that can't afford to buy what they rent, or can but it makes no sense to. I'd say that unless you have a really compelling reason to buy now, continuing to rent probably makes sense.

The last thing I'll say is that as I understand it, "home ownership" as part of the middle class lifestyle in the US means owning a home that you can live in for a very long time, not buying something you'll grow out of in a few years and need to upgrade (that, to me, is at least part speculation). So you decision may also depend on your time horizon.

What's a "middle-class" New Yorker to do?

Make more money, that's what! Get a job at Goldman or the LIRR.

I work for CUNY, the academic equivalent of the LIRR.

>Make more money, that's what! Get a job at Goldman or the LIRR.

LIRR has better retirement benefits, right?

You say that you "believe" owning is right for you because you think you are middle class and middle class people own. Set aside your beliefs. Find an independent financial advisor (one not from a bank or mutual fund company or insurance company). You need to get a handle on your financial future, retirement, what you need to be saving, how much you can afford to spend on housing. Only when buying comfortably and sensibly fits within your financial means and long-term goals is it to be considered.

It is shocking to me how few people know how much they need to be saving to retire at a given age. Or whether there are better ways to be investing, spending, saving. Ask friends or family if they can recommend someone. Ask around work. Your accountant may know independent certified financial advisors s/he can refer you to.

Only then are you ready to consider whether owning is appropriate for you.

I have said for 3 years on Streeteasy, owning is for people who know that it fits within their long-term financial goals and means and comfortably fits within their budget.

I should also clarify that I have a wife and a none-year old. So, that plays into the equation and the two areas that I've been looking into. I have nothing against Brooklyn, but the commute would not appeal to me (I work in Upper Manhattan). Also, I'm probably in the same boat in Brooklyn...the areas that are good fits for families are likely out of my comfort zone. The same goes for Upper Manhattan. Inwood might be an option, but a decent 2BR coop is around $350-$400K. It looks like the reality is that if we want to own our own place in the city, we will have to pay a premium to do so. If we choose to base the decision solely on cost/price/return, it probably makes sense to continue renting.

I meant a "nine-year" old, though "none-year" old does sound kind of cute.

>I have said for 3 years on Streeteasy, ... and comfortably fits within their budget.

Kyle, did you split your infinitive?

Does your wife earn equal to what you earn? Raising a family and living in Manhattan has always been out of reach for most people, even when real estate was "reasonable." I've been looking in Carroll Gardens and Cobble Hill and walking around the areas there are tons of families so that might be an option. good luck...

The wife has been working p/t and will likely increase hours/income in the near future. We're not looking to live in Manhattan...We'd be perfectly happy in one of the boroughs in a quiet neighborhood with decent elementary schools. The comment above to focus on home ownership within the big picture of family, finances, retirement, etc. is good advice. Perhaps if we consider these other factors a bit more explicitly, our desire to buy a home will dissipate.

you won't have any problem find a place to live given your requirements and not needing to live in manhattan. you might look at riverdale or hudson hts. which are "quiet" neighborhoods.

in your situation i'd try to find a nice rent stabilized uptown for the long run and build a nice portfolio with the savings from "not buying". it's not the typical middle-class from USA, but it's the typical middle-class from Switzerland, the guys to learn from when it comes to finance.

Read Kylewest's post a couple of times a day for a week or two & take it to heart. You need to make an informed decision on this not a 'keeping up with the Joneses' decision.

Brillaint, kw, as usual.

Julia is wrong about the history of Manhattan. Manhattan was a perfectly reasonable place for a middle class family to raise children, so long as they didn't need vast suburban space and weren't afraid of some urban grit, for virtually the entire twentieth century. Only the combination of vacancy/luxury decontrol and the sudden rise in sales prices beginning in the late '90s made it impossible for young families to live there without extraordinary wealth.

But it is true that the real middle class -- i.e., the middle fifth of the income distribution, making somewhat less than the OP, without inherited wealth -- have been renters, not owners, in Manhattan for a very long time (with the exception of rent controlled/stabilized tenants who were able to buy into conversions at insider prices).

You might try Washington Heights. Castle Village, for example, is very family-friendly and has some nice inventory that might fit into your budget. I believe the assessments for the collapsed retaining wall of several years ago are now completed, so maintenance is back to normal rates.

> But it is true that the real middle class -- i.e., the middle fifth of the income distribution, making somewhat less than the OP, without inherited wealth -- have been renters, not owners, in Manhattan for a very long time (with the exception of rent controlled/stabilized tenants who were able to buy into conversions at insider prices).

and imho with the property tax increases coming and maintenance costs increases being higher than increases in rent stabs, renting a stabilized for the long haul is not a bad place to be. the obsession with owning is very much a generational thing, baby boomers and older seem really into it. obviously they did very well running the last huge appreciation cycle. so they think it's the norm and tell their kids "buy your home!" as if that cycle would be repeated again to the benefit of their kids. what they miss is that their kids will do well if they can buy for dirt cheap as they did themselves, not otherwise.

Gen X and Y are better served by building real wealth, not putting too much in what they think is an asset but usually behaves more like a liability. Obviously this is not the case for those that already have a substantial portfolio (one that can free you from the labor mkt) and can think of their 1st residencies as a liability.

I agree with Kylewest. I would caution against buying a home anywhere there has just been a bubble increase of 300% in the past decade. Also, the economy is facing unprecedented problems. You cannot plan for unknown tax increases but you can plan for mobility. Rent. Then get on lists in some of the middle class housing projects. I have a friend who has lived for years in the Chelsea one on 8th and 24th. It is perfectly lovely. Save your money and protect the well being of your family. Financial freedom is a beautiful thing.

Also doesn't CUNY help employees with these issues. Don't they have arrangements at buildings?

> Then get on lists in some of the middle class housing projects. I have a friend who has lived for years in the Chelsea one on 8th and 24th. It is perfectly lovely. Save your money and protect the well being of your family. Financial freedom is a beautiful thing.

Second that! those rent stab arrangements are a great deal. as they provide you with total "stability" lol, it's totally up to you whether to renew the lease, rents usually are around 30%-40% below market rates and increases are regulated. not too shabby!!!

What was the name of that program again that is named after a guy? I think you have a list of buildings all over the city where you want to apply and need to mail a letter to be put on the list of availability...

I appreciate the feedback. I'll definitely look into some of the city-affiliated rent-stab buildings. An interesting note about CUNY. They are finishing an building in E. Harlem that is targeted to both students and faculty. There are several bizarre things about this building, including the rents they hope to get from faculty. I haven't seen the building discussed on SE. Take a look:

http://housing.gc.cuny.edu/index.htm

The "middle class housing projects" referred to here are Mitchell-Lama coops. Your income is too high for those, and almost certainly would be too high even if you did everything possible to bring down your Adjusted Gross Income, which is what some of them count ... and more so once your wife starts earning more money.

I assume you work at CCNY (faculty or admin, btw?) ... have you looked on Broadway near there and in the blocks west of Bway? Of course, school will be a challenge, but it is for all the middle classes in NY (and, for that matter, for the criminal classes getting one's child into the right private school is no walk in the park either).

commute

no choice or live small. I know lots of folks who bit down hard and lived 'college' style most of their adult lives b/c of this exact phenomenon. You picked a job which does not pay large. I blame your mother. She should have knocked that book out of your hand and bought you cigarettes and beer, none of this would have happened...she had her chance. So academics is your fate...such is life. The beauty of living small is that you keep a small carbon foot print and reduce your demand on resources. Rent, save you pennies for your child's education and travel. Keep your eye out for a commute you can live with and an affordable place. Be optimistic, times are changing.

"I am one of the those "middle-class" New Yorkers that have often been discussed on this site...meaning that I am a "middle-income" person who does not feel that he can lead a middle-class lifestyle in NYC. I have a stable job, make $100K annually, no debt and about $75K in savings, and close to 100K in a 401K."

You are NOT "middle class."

Six-figure incomes are not Middle Class ... not even for New York City, where the median household income is $55K.

The Middle Class ends at $92K. If you're making above $92K, you are in the top 20% percent. Being in the top 20% is not in the "middle" of anything, by any metric.

OWNING your home in New York is not a Middle Class thing at all ... neither is sending your kids to private school. These are UPPER Class trappings, like it or not. The "Middle Class Lifestyle" in New York City is to rent.

Just because you don't "feel" as rich as you would if you were making that same in Cleveland is immaterial. You chose to live in an expensive city, and this is how you choose to spend your low-end UPPER Class income.

matt, have you considered that people sometimes thrown in the words middle class just to get a rise out of you? like they do to jason and the subterranean tropical climate in san francisco?

Matthew, this I'm sure is news to you, but you have for some very odd and unknown reason conflated "middle class" with "middle income".

There is no official definition of the income parameters for "middle class".

All of which is just a highly verbose way of saying "you're WRONG!!!"

as usual

Um, LucilleIsSorry, what are you talking about? Frisco has a maritime climate.

alan, we both know it's the polar tundra. just stop it.

Alan, I am not wrong.

alan's mom smells of elderberries, too. pass it on.

No, Matthew, you're not wrong, you're special.

LucilleIsSoDesperateToBeAPartofSomething

columbiacounty, little afternoon delight? you know i would. that fool i'm married to is out with kids and dog hiking or chopping wood or something. be right over? i'll be ready, as always.

hall monitor will probably delete that one. even though, it's perfectly innocent. i obviously mean turkish delight. it is simply devine. columbiacounty, you're into turkish, right?

LucilleIsApparentlyNotSorry

ok, seriously, i am sorry to 10023, and she knows that. i'll wear this badge of shame until further notice.

what are you wearing? want to post a pic? i'll do if you do. but you have to go first, lucille is a lady.

Alan don't you have a cake to frost?

is alan having a party? can we all come? alan is the hostess with the mostest, i bet. sorry to steal your thread, non middleclass guy. but you got your answers, right? just say the word and lucille will get lost.

Looking glass,
what about the wife? She could work a job, maybe generate some extra down payment money.
Your kid is a little young for boarding school but I know a place that will take him when he turns 7 maybe 6 if he's big for his age. There's a sneaker factory in India that would be proud as punch to add your child to the ranks of other youngsters who have entered into this work-study program. Well, actually it's a work-work program. Our child was wild and rambunctious. Several years at the "Nike School" was just the tip to take that spoiled edge off her and teach her a trade. When she's home for the holidays she is very helpful when we buy running shoes and her Hindi is excellent. I heard there a some schools just like this in China. Low tuition and an ingrained work ethic is what you could expect. Puts you in the market for a 1 bedroom. Problem solved!

NYCMatt - Forget middle or upper class. You know what is "no class"? Not tipping or allowing others to tip.

>NYCMatt - Forget middle or upper class. You know what is "no class"? Not tipping or allowing others to tip.

What if someone doesn't give his maid enough paid vacation time? http://streeteasy.com/talk/discussion/40522-2015-holiday-tipping