open kitchen vs traditional in prewar 6

Are you going to live in this apartment or are you renovating to sell it? Unclear from way post is worded. If living in it, I'd say make it the way you want since tastes change and attempting to plan for the future this way is not what life is about. Live the way you like.

Personally, I think a fully open kitchen is a trend that may well change over time. Cooking odors go everywhere, the mess is exposed, and people buying prewar apartments are attracted to prewar features which in a nice reno can be tweaked to include a kitchen and breakfast room or informal eating area. I think that is the ideal. But If opening the space up, consider design elements that still segregate it well enough to hide pots and bowls all over the counter that remain there as you serve a meal. Also remain conscious of appliance arrangement and don't put the fridge 1/2 a block away from the sink and stove.

I'd add that families with small children often prefer an open layout so that one can cook/keep an eye on the kids at the same time.

Hi Bela. I generally agree with kylewest (as usual). With regard to maximizing resale value, I would add that the answer can depend quite a lot on the bones of the particular apartment. Some sixes are best left alone; others do better opened up. Many allow the owner to strike a balance by merging the kitchen with the maid's room to create an informal dining area. Some are even laid out in a way that accommodates an eating nook in a pantry "L", so the maid's quarters can be retained as a home office or bedroom/guest room.

kylewest
The reno is to sell in 5 years. I also forgot to mention the option of splitting the dining room in half to create a small office and an L shape kitchen with a nook. I think your note on fridge being far away from everywhere is right on.

Look, a lot will be personal taste. I do not like classic-6s where the dining room has been obliterated. But I also don't like the idea of living with children and the compromises one makes as a result. If you are selling in 5 years, I doubt you will make anything on the reno and may well not even recover the money you spend. RE for now is a longer term proposition. But if you have to renovate or simply want to, West81st offers good suggestions. The less mangling of the space you do and more you retain a classic 6 configuration, the more it will attract a broad market I think if the basic layout now is decent. Blowing up the maid's room and then massacring the dining room doesn't appeal to me and may start to nudge you toward "taste specific" renovations which are never a good thing for resale.

I'm curious if Ali or other agents will weigh in here since she has a better handle on what buyers look for in such apartments.

I would keep the maid's room in tact and even expand it a bit since it serves as a small guest room with it's own bath. The kitchen will also accomodate an undercounter washer dryer. That is something not appealing in an open kitchen plan in my opinion.

As a buyer, I generally strongly dislike seeing fully open kitchens in classic apartments. I also really hate chopped up DRs. So as other posters have said, your reno should fit how you want/need to live NOW, and should NOT be done simply for resale.

Most buyers of classic 6s, 7s, 8s are interested in maintaining a 'classic' layout. If a unit has been chopped up and reconfigured, buyers will likely factor in the cost of reverting it back to its original layout when making an offer.

I also don't like when big foyer's are turned into dining rooms. However, we don't need a dining room since we entertain only 3 times a yr and do it in the foyer which is 15 by 18.

2016 seem pretty far off --- I wish I were omniscient enough what buyers are going to want.

That said, I know what I as a real estate agent am going to want -- clients! I bet West81 will too, and I bet, bela, that whoever sold you that apartment will too.

So why not take advantage of that desire and have one or two agents over? Most of us are happy to walk through a space that needs renovation and make suggestions, if we think we're courting a client who will sell in five years, and may recommend us to friends and family in the meantime. (Though weekedays are better for this sort of thing than weekends).

Suggestion will of necessity be based on our knowledge of the market in 2011, but at least seeing the space we'll be able to fine-tune the answer to your particular submarket. (For example, jas is dead-on that currently families with small children want open kitchens, and if I see your place I can make a more educated guess as to whether your next buyers are going to be childless, or people with toddlers, or people with teenagers.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty
email: ali [at] dgneary [dot] com

The main reason we would open up the plan is to have 48 in stove and sub zero 36 in refr/freezer pair. THose things never fit in regular kitchen.

I am so sick of rearranging my fridge for 30 min to fit things after costco trips.

We did a gut reno of our kitchen and lost about 5 inches of cabinets to get a full size fridge in. Not a big loss at all. I also wanted the ice and water through the door, which only seems to come in a big fridge. I loooove it. Costco also figured into our equation, and now I have plenty of space.

We did have the option of moving the kitchen, but frankly, I now like to get away from everyone while cooking. I've lived with an open kitchen for years, and now I like the little galley kitchen at the back of the apt. It does have a window, though, so not claustrophobic. Also, I don't have to listen to the noise of the dishwasher in the living room.

If you do decide to go with an open kitchen, try cutting it off from the living space with a thin (12-15 inches wide) raised breakfast bar. The kitchen counter and sink will be about 8 inches lower than the bar counter and you can use barstools for seating. It makes a nice space for people to park themselves while you're cooking, but they won't see your counter mess when they first come in. If the breakfast bar is clean, the whole kitchen will look clean.

I think the decision to move it depends a lot on the size of your living room. In a big LR, it would work, but in a small LR, they tend to look like you bought a studio and tacked on a couple of bedrooms.

Oh, if you decide to move the kitchen, and you think one of those quiet dishwashers will work, think again. We had a Bosch dishwasher and it was the worst appliance ever. Quiet, sure, when it felt like working. It seemed to have all kind of sensor issues, and thought the load was done when it was only halfway through, or completely reset itself whenever someone opened it mid-cycle. Or it would run through the whole cycle, but without water. After about 5 service calls I threw it out. If you google some of the reviews on Bosch dishwashers, you'll find they pretty much stink.

when i was in the market for c6, i looked for layouts that would have allowed to gut out kitchen, maid's room/bath, maybe even a piece of dining room to make a GREAT ROOM with an open kitchen to THAT room, small kitchen table, sectional couch (built in if nec) and the media. i still think that's the best use of that archaic apartment design. make a family great room. if you link the floorplan, it would be even easier for people to advise you though, since the layouts differ.

bela - are you talking about 36" all freezer next to a 36" all refrigerator? Those things rarely fit in any kitchen, except a McMansion in suburbia. I have a sub-zero and hate to say it but the depth is the problem - - the full depth fridges just hold a lot more. We manage because we also put in an undercounter refrigerator that holds milk, juice, soda, wine etc. That's been the space lifesaver.

Most of my clients have opened kitchens if it was possible, if the water lines are on the wall that needs to be removed it makes it almost impossible to do. I also have clients that needed to be convinced of opening the kitchen and when all was said and done they were very pleased.

I saw 36inch subz at the architect show and everything fits in those big boys. It felt like refrigerator heaven. I also loved the new capital range 48 inches with the rotisserie. We were thinking of putting in a miele washer and a miele dryer. I know I will hate the capacity but putting in electrolux undercounter is just too ugly. We were thinking of putting in a miele dishwasher. If we open up kitchen we can even put in 2 of them. Altough I don't think I need 2. I did not like liebherr because of the water dripping in the back. Although pircewise it makes a ton of sense. Wolf range looks great but capital seems more versatile with super powerful burners. Also 48 inch gives you an extra small oven, a griddle or grill. Although grilling in the apartment seems not practical. I think it will stink up the place unless super ventilation is in place and we cannot do that.

Breakfast bar: strongly endorse this idea as compromise to 100% open kitchen. As I alluded to above, it is the kind of design element that still suggests boundaries of a kitchen area but allows the cook to remain involved in the action in the dining/living area of the apartment. I have a variation on such an arrangement and love it. A bar about 8" higher than the counter is all you need.

Silent Dishwashers: sorry for needsadvice's experience, but it is not the norm. One broken Bosch does not condemn all silent dishwashers as worthless. Our Bosch is utterly silent but for a gurgle here or there during the cycle. A hidden red light beneath the door projects a dot on the floor when it is running. I can entertain and run the d/w whenever I want and no one knows it. Many friends have similar arrangements. Spend the money: get the silent type of d/w. Cycles don't matter a hoot to me--I use "auto" all the time. The noise is what counts.

Fridge: Whatever you do, just make it fit. You said Sub-Z so I assume you won't suddenly change to something deeper. I cannot believe the number of reno's I see where people spend a lot on cabinetry, etc and then plop a non-counter-depth fridge into the kitchen where it dumbs down the who effect.

Kyle - actually if you make one counter deeper, than you can have the deeper fridge as well. We do have a SubZero on a wall with no counters, but one of our long counters was designed to be 28" deep. Works very well as you can have various appliances in back (toaster, coffee maker, etc.)and still have very good work space. Also allows for full depth above counter cabinets,(accommodating 12+" plate, which many cabinets cannot do) so you can work without having the overhead cabinets be annoying.

Kyle and I agree on the breakfast bar, but I stand by my lousy Bosch. I was not condemning all silent dishwashers, though. Just that particularly crappy Bosch. Maybe they're better now, mine was about 10 years ago.

I have a silent one now, a lowly Frigidaire, about 2 years old that is very silent and works well all the time. It has a speed cycle too, that runs through in 30 minutes and cleans/sanitizes everything very well. It also has a grinding disposal inside that grinds up all food bits that catch in its drain.

My particular pet peeve is running a dishwasher for 2 hours to clean the dishes. Shockingly inefficient and I hate inefficiency. Don't know about Meile and all the prestige brands and their cycles, though.

I agree with Kyle on the counter-depth fridge. I don't know why this has only just now occurred to fridge manf. The depth of the fridge should match the depth of the counter, it looks better and you can still get good storage.

Oh, and re: the Bosch. Have a friend who had one. She got rid of it because it was very difficult to have serviced, and the servicing took a long time to get parts. Supposedly not a lot of authorized repairmen in this area. Then again, this was a while ago, so things may have changed.

We have two Miele dishwashers. The only negative I have noticed so far is that they're not good for deeper serving pieces. On the plus side, I switched out the lower rack on one of them so that I now use that one (both top and bottom rack) for glasses, coffee cups, cutlery, and the other one for plates, trays, etc. A luxury, but especially when we have guests,(12 people last night) a very nice thing to have.
Also, another nice thing about the Miele and the other machines that have different temperature settings is that if you set it for the lowest temperature,and on the gentle cycle and use very, very little powdered detergent (definitely NOT the liquid kind)it is safe for good crystal. (I put my Baccarat glasses in it, and have not had any damage at all).

"Oh, and re: the Bosch. Have a friend who had one. She got rid of it because it was very difficult to have serviced, and the servicing took a long time to get parts. Supposedly not a lot of authorized repairmen in this area."

BINGO! This, exactly. And every repair was $400. I went with the Frigidaire because I can just dump it and buy an entirely new one for the same price as just one Bosch repair.

As long as we're talking crystal, I run my Waterford through with a bit of baking soda and a teaspoon of Cascade. Works fine. Also, while we're on the finer points of crystal, you can remove hard water etching in antique vases with a vinegar soak, and you can remove brown crackle in antique dishes with bleach. Cracked crystal can be repaired with something called "rear view mirror adhesive" and a firm buffing.

Might as well get in all the hausfrau tips, while we're here.

OH MY GOD STOP THE OPEN KITCHEN MADNESS ALREADY!!!!!!

Please don't spoil the graceful flow of the original prewar floorplan of the Classic Six by knocking down walls.

No, your appliances really aren't all that attractive that you need to be staring at them all the time from your living room.

Matt,

Thats why we make panels so you dont see the appliances. I do not believe it spoils any flow of a classic six.

I agree with Matt.

>My opinion is to keep the kitchen with all it's mess behind the wall....

Mine, too. Except I'd also delete that apostrophe.

re: spoiling the graceful flow. matt, i vividly recall your outrage over the very idea of maid's quarters and treating people like appliances, to be put away when not in use. something about the wave of immigrants at the turn of last century. ring a bell?

hfs: too many posts with this name.
too much detail being remembered.

character not working.

jesus loves you columbiacounty. jesus loves everyone. remember that.

matt
beautiful things are not bad. you are to try it. maybe you will like it.

I was all about not eating in the kitchen and not opening up the kitchen to living areas. I also have a strong dislike of mucking with original prewar floorplans.

That said, I now have a semi-open kitchen with an island, which we eat at. Horrors. Very, very practical.

As for resale value, it really depends on where this classic 6 is situated, as Ali & W81 have said. A 20s era "dogleg" C6 with a maid's immediately adjacent, and next to a DR which can be accessed not too inelegantly off the bedroom hallway in a family-oriented neighborhood? Open up the K, make a large eat-in kitchen, DR -> 3rd bed.

A larger 6 as at 685WEA with a square LR? Flip DR and maid's.

C6 where you have to walk through the DR to get to maid's (as at 320WEA or 15W81) where DR is not really off the bedroom hallway. Leave it.

Also, while you can see the kitchen & eat-in area from the living room in the first scheme I've outlined, you don't have to see the mess. Easy enough to install a pocket door in the right spot if you are entertaining.

We recently completed a full get renovation where we opened up the kitchen so that the dining room and kitchen is one very big room. It is cut off from the rest of the apartment using two french doors. This was not my design, it was the architects and I have to say it really looks great and the client is so very happy.

I think it depends on personal preference but I would not shy away from it

>I now have a semi-open kitchen with an island, which we eat at. Horrors. Very, very practical.

It's even more practical if you forego the cutlery and eat leaning over the sink. Or so I've heard.

This simply cannot be answered without more information about the apartment. My personal preference: a small kitchen with a large opening to the dining room that can be closed by means of a sliding door. I do generally consider it unlovely to obliterate walls, unless the original layout is very problematic, but I also think that many prewar apartments can benefit from subtle changes to the layout, like larger openings between living/dining rooms and dining room/kitchen, flipping the maids and kitchen so that the kitchen adjoins the dining room, etc. etc.

I think a huge kitchen is silly in a house and ridiculous in an apartment: to me, it absolutely screams that the people who live there don't cook. a reasonable kitchen opened up to a breakfast eating area can be nice, but again, that's a luxury of space, and I don't consider a

Finally, I think a third bedroom is going to be more valuable in general than a large kitchen. If the maids room functions as a third bedroom, or subtle changes to the floor plan can make it a real third bedroom, that's something to seriously consider. I have friends who did a million-dollar renovation to a huge classic six and as part of the renovation removed the maids bath. Now they are pregnant with their second child and are trying to sell the apartment because the maids room has been turned into a relatively useless office without a bathroom.

I thought huge kitchens were ridiculous until we expanded ours.

i'm confused by your comments nyc10023. if you thought huge kitchens were ridiculous, why did you expand your kitchen and make it huge?

anyone who likes to cook knows that it is far more efficient to work in a thoughtfully designed small space, like a galley kitchen, then one of these behemoth kitchens with a huge island, acres of unnecessary counters (probably made of a non-durable material like most marble that stains easily) and enough cabinets to store dishes for 75 people. in a huge apartment, it is great to have the small cook space open to a spacious breakfast area, where you can maintain a separate dining room and still have three or four bedrooms. but we are talking about a classic six here.

Because I was always running out of counter space. And even more would be great. As for storage, I can never have enough because I am short and can only reach a limited range of cabs. And everyone cooks differently. I like having frequently used items out all the time.

As for a classic 6, sure most ppl woul love to keep a dr but many who buy are in the position of wanting a 3rd bedroom and also having a place to watch kids and do a fast cleanup after meals. As someone who has attempted to feed kids with a galley kitch next to dr, semi open to dr and now with an island in a kitch open to or - the last beats the first two hands down.

wait. so in other words, you didn't think large kitchens were ridiculous. you wanted a large kitchen. it's fine that you prefer a big suburban-style kitchen, but what i don't understand is trying to claim that you converted into a large-kitchen devotee following your renovation, when in fact it's what you always wanted. your earlier comment made it sound like you wound up in an open kitchen-style apartment against your wishes and discovered that you loved it. in fact, you renovated your kitchen in order to achieve what you wanted: a big kitchen and no dining room. that wouldn't be my choice, but if you like it, then great.

nyc10023 - did you just add the island after your major initial renovation, or did you totally recently re-do (with some demo) your kitchen? I somehow remember a previous post where you were getting ideas for adding a dining counter.

bela, we had the same quandry last year when we did our renovation. The architect wanted me to give up the maids room and expand the kitchen. But i felt that it was far more valuable as a small third bedroom than an eat-in kitchen area. We compromised by reducing the size of the dining room by one foot which enabled the galley part of the kitchen to be 8 feet wide instead of 7. Then we cut an archway into the new wall between the dining room and kitchen. This involves very careful planning and measuring as you don't want to lose the ability to hang cabinets on the kitchen side and you don't want them to be so high that they are useless. We trimmed this arch with lovely molding so on the dining room side it looks quite formal. We also added a raised counter bar under the arch which is perfect for serving into the dining room or using as a breakfast bar. The last feature which i really love is that we hung a flat screen tv over the dining room buffet on the opposite wall but then covered it with a large mirror with one way glass. if i want to cook in the kitchen i can watch/listen to tv also or we can just watch the morning news while having breakfast. Thus the dining room is really being used in many ways including a family room, the kitchen is pleasant to work/serve in and i still have the maids room and bath. Hope this helps...

"As for a classic 6, sure most ppl woul love to keep a dr but many who buy are in the position of wanting a 3rd bedroom and also having a place to watch kids and do a fast cleanup after meals."

What's with this recent obsession with "watching" the kids at all times?

You'd think that the original inhabitants of these prewar apartments didn't have kids at all.

"What's with this recent obsession with "watching" the kids at all times?

You'd think that the original inhabitants of these prewar apartments didn't have kids at all."

It's because kids today are too stupid to take plastic bags off their heads when they run out of air. Hence all the printed warnings.

Interesting.

Do you think it's all the fertility drugs?

We compromised by cutting a window---an actual 36" x 40", opening and closing 8-pane casement window--- between the kitchen and the rest of the place. We love it but it is probably not for everybody. Just sayin'.

matt...did you used to eat at niko's on bway with previous night's "dates"?

I do not know this "Niko's".

i ask because that guy used air his grievances with modern manhattan, modern uws, modern insanity of letting women vote....ect. and he loved to express his digust with "old" uws bitches and their "in vitro babies", especially when sitting within earshot of a perfectly nice family. his date would smile and nod and chew with his mouth closed, but that cranky old wannbe queen was totally you!

Matt: remember the maids' rooms? I wouldn't be concerned about watching kids if I had live-in help the way the original inhabitants of large prewar apts did. Are you going to convince me that Mrs. large prewar apt was cooking and taking care of her kids at the same time herself? Take a look at the tenement-style apt interiors on NYPL sometime - the kitchen, living room, and dining room were in ONE room.

Happyrenter: yes and no. I wanted a larger galley style kitchen with no island, that was adjacent to the dining room and living room, but not completely open to either (large wall openings but not open). We would be eating in the DR ALL the time. My partner really, really, really wanted an open kitchen because he liked the style. So we compromised and made a "semi-open" kitchen to the living room. I was convinced that it was horrible, but didn't mind it as much as I thought. As for eating in the DR, it was annoying enough that we found ourselves eating at the kids' small playtable in the "semi-open" area of the kitchen. Fast forward 5 years, I found that cleaning the now-grown-upsize table was extremely annoying, even with a wipedown vinyl-coated tablecloth. I got an island made a few months ago, and we are happily eating away on our Carrera marble island perched on counter stools. And are planning to make a bigger opening between kitchen and DR in the near-ish future.

If I had to re-do the kitchen (and don't tempt me), I would get rid of the vestigial "tall" section of my kitchen, relocate refrigerator and have a one-walled-kitchen with a very long island on the other side.

"Are you going to convince me that Mrs. large prewar apt was cooking and taking care of her kids at the same time herself?"

I'm saying that back in the day, there were NO open kitchens, Classic Six, Classic Five, or Classic Three.

And most of THOSE people didn't have "help" either.

Really? So you're saying if you could afford a Classic 6 and up for your family, that you didn't have help with your children? Remember this is before the Depression.

"I'm saying that back in the day, there were NO open kitchens, Classic Six, Classic Five, or Classic Three.

And most of THOSE people didn't have "help" either."

exactly! get those baby and food making machines back the hell in the kitchen! worthless entitled bitches, get in there, unlearn how to read, and cook and clean all day, damn it. and i don't even want to SEE you doing your job and duty in there, close the door! does nycmatt have to cut a bitch?

Matt: type in nursemaid in the NYT search box. It will be extremely informative, as to what kind of family employed servants and to what purpose and where they slept.

Both of my grandmothers had "closed" kitchens and didn't have a nursemaid or other household "help" watching the children every second of the day.

Neither did MY mother.

Must have been a New York thing, where children are apparently more high-maintenance.

Also look at the census information by address in the 1920s. It will be very informative to see the servant population for a particular Manhattan building.

Sure, and I'm sure nomadic and hunter-gatherer cultures didn't and don't have any substitute for mother carrying a toddler on her back or hip ALL day long.

I don't know what your family situation was - dad working all day, mom in suburban house, age spread of kids, extended family around to help? Hate to make it personal, but from time immemorial except for this generation, my ancestral family situation has been designed around a family "compound". Communal cooking, communal watching of kids, communal everything. The worry over a closed kitchen simply didn't exist because there were multiple adults (including servants - don't think they got paid either, just room & board) around 24/7.

Might I remind you that the topic under discussion is Classic 6 setups - built, designed in an era and place (specifically "upper" or whatever middle-class Manhattan) with a servant's room. Wages and rents were such that if one could rent a C6+ (most were not built for sale), one could also afford a servant or two for a fraction of rent. This dynamic started to break down in the 20s, when women could go out and get jobs that paid more than domestic servant wages, which in turn led to the design of apartment "hotels" where services performed by maids were outsourced to the hotel.

I've also read the "Little House" series many times, but dad was in or around the house much of the time (Pa Ingalls was not a very good farmer) and the kids never left the house to go to school (their formal schooling was sporadic). Also, based on the books, there was very little "cooking" done because there wasn't much available in terms of fresh ingredients.

Things change. Anyone raising a kid the way I was raised (e.g. being sent out to play alone and wandering all over town) would be arrested and in the Post. There're pros and cons either way.

What I'm most astonished at, when in an old-curmudgeon mood, are the kids on those Razr(?) scooters, two inches off the ground, wearing helmets and knee/elbow pads.

"I've also read the "Little House" series many times, but dad was in or around the house much of the time (Pa Ingalls was not a very good farmer) and the kids never left the house to go to school (their formal schooling was sporadic). Also, based on the books, there was very little "cooking" done because there wasn't much available in terms of fresh ingredients."

You apparently have difficulty with reading comprehension, then.

The children most certainly DID go to school ... to a one-room schoolhouse. MOST of the time.

And there was CONSTANT cooking going on inside the house.

Sheesh! PICK UP THE BOOKS AND RE-READ.

jesus, this thread !?

bela - we rent a C6 with a semi-open kitchen - large open window and serving counter to DR which is open to adjacent LR. i love it and imagine that most people with children, whether renting or buying, would prefer it to a kitchen that was tucked away. but what do i know....

happyrenter - i remember your thread when you were debating whether or not expand your kitchen and do away with maid's room. you decided to keep it? good reasoning ;)

NYCMatt
I don't think parents at that time were as involved in doing homework with their children as they are now. I easily spend 2 hours a night checking and supervising homework. I don't think it is the job that should be entrusted to the nannies. If I can cook and make sure that the kids are studying and focused instead of doing who knows what in their bedroom it is a great. I huge dining table is really for homework and not company in my house at least. When we hit teenage years things might change but for now I want to see what they are doing.

I would also like to thank the board for such active input on this topic. I think we will combine dining room with kitchen, drop the ceiling in both rooms so that it will match and put in lights. We will also put down wood floors in both areas.

Does anyone have a 48 inch stove? Do you think it is an overkill?

nyc10023,

it makes sense that you ate in the living room if the kitchen was open to the living room and closed to the dining room--that just doesn't make sense as a layout. there is a difference between having a kitchen that opens to a dining room and a kitchen that is merged with the dining room, or that is blown out to huge, unnecessary proportions and replaces the dining room. it's great if the kitchen can open to the dining room.

lucille,

it's odd that you are ranting about supposed mysogeny on the board when the people who do the child rearing and other domestic work in families where mothers and fathers work full time but want the kids watched all the time are...other women! generally these other women are non-caucasians and/or immigrants and are usually paid very badly. so i'm not sure you are right that the entrance of haute bourgeois women into the work force (poor women were always working) has been such a boon to gender equality.

um, i was just trashtalking matt.

that's what you got from my post? your mind is absolutely fascinating.

In the 1900 census, households without at least 2 servants were recorded as lower-middle class. Look it up.

But who cares? If that "great room" isn't at least 30 x 30, open kitchen will look stupid.

@NYCMATT: It's the ritalin. As soon as they act like normal kids ("Doctor, they're so CHILDISH!"), the stressed out parents dope them up. Makes them stupid. But that's okay, everybody's self-esteem is great.

>>> it's odd that you are ranting about supposed mysogeny on the board when the people who do the child rearing and other domestic work in families where mothers and fathers work full time but want the kids watched all the time are...other women! generally these other women are non-caucasians and/or immigrants and are usually paid very badly. so i'm not sure you are right that the entrance of haute bourgeois women into the work force (poor women were always working) has been such a boon to gender equality.

Spoken by somebody who probably does not have children: nannys are NOT paid badly in the United States. According to the Park Slope Parents survey the average nanny nets $650 a week, which is $33,800 a year (mind you this survey was done in 2009 so this was during the economic downturn). Most people also give their nannny 1-3 weeks bonus at year's end, so the total is closer to $35k which is pretty much dead on the median salary in the outer buroughs. Metrocard is typically included as well, and most people also pay for their nanny's food while they are at work. Additionally, most nannys get all of the parents vacation days plus a week or two of extra vacation. This is not to say they are overpaid; it's a difficult job and I have the utmost respect for good nannys. But while they are poorly paid relative to those that employ them, they are not "poorly paid" relative to many other jobs.

it doesn't have to be 30x30. it has to be 20x20. imagine.....galley kitchen with one side having the closed cabinets, built pantry, other side is open, with either nothing or cabinets with glass on both sides. right against that is the couch, about 10ft from that is the other wall with media. along the far wall there is a long narrow tables with a bench on one or both sides and captain's chair for mom and dad. the cabinets along the wall can even extend all the way to the other side and include a little bill paying desk set up.

"nannys are NOT paid badly in the United States."

spoken by someone who probably has never tried to subsist on a nanny's salary. to start with, your so-called "data" on nanny salaries is based on a survey of parents--that is, on what parents report they pay their nannys. hardly the most accurate information on wages. so $650 a week is a highly suspect number, almost certainly inflated. they you add in your own additions: "most people" supposedly pay for metrocards, food, pay bonuses, and provide reasonable vacation. this is all at the whim of the employer, and since domestic workers are among the least-protected in our society, we really have no reliable data on their working conditions or these little supplemental benefits you seem to think they all receive. i understand that $650 a week seems like a lot to the person paying it, but:

1. benefits. do most nannys pay for their own health insurance out of their salaries, or is it provided by their employers. do they have retirement benefits? are they paid under the table, depriving of them of social security benefits?

2. hours. our nanny works 11 hours a day. that would work out to less than $12 an hour in pretax dollars if she were paid $650 a week.

3. job security. do most nannys have any job security at all? are they entitled to notice or severance?

4. child care. nearly all nannys are women; most of them have children of their own. these children need to be cared for while the nannys take care of other people's children.

for a rich person who benefits from cheap domestic labor and the wage gap to claim that nannys are well-paid is kind of nauseating.

Bela, i did put in a 48 inch Wolf stove...6 burners and a grill. i just love it and even though i have to disconnect the smoke alarms every time i use the grill, i wouldn't change it. it's not over kill if you like to cook. The fridge is 42 inch and has a water/ice dispenser which is almost as good as an extra sink.
BTW, i find the nanny discussion ever so interesting as I watch my daughter in laws interact with their nannies and strive to do the right thing. it's not easy being a working mom even in this enlightened day and age.

Happyrenter -

I never said nanny's were "well" paid. I disputed that they were "very poorly" paid, and empically, given their salaries in relation to the average in the outer buroughs, it's difficult to argue they are very poorly paid. The health insurance comment is a fair point, but the other points hold little water. Nobody has job security these days, and big companies give peole two weeks severance. Many people give their nannies much more than two weeks serverance. Childcare? This is an issue with ALL jobs, not just nannies, many of whom live in multi-generational households so they have aunts, cousins, mom, etc. around to watch the kids. On the books vs off the books - yes, a lot of people pay off the books, but a nanny could theoretically report her income and make the same contributions as anybody else making $35k a year.

The $650 is based upon a 45 hour work week - if your nanny is working 11 hour days that is indeed light.

Anyway - I pay on the books and our wonderful nanny takes home more than $15 per hour (that's after taxes and social security witholding so her gross pay is more) for a supposed 50 hour weeks, although she rarely works this much but is always paid this much (in addition to 20 bucks an hour for overtime). We also pay her a very generous year end bonus (which more than covers her health insurance she pays out of pocket), expect her to relax during naps and school rather than do anything around the house because I know on weekends when my younger one is napping the last thing I want to do is household chores. We pay above market but we can afford to, but we have two parents who make substantial incomes; there are many familieis who pay market because that's all they can afford.

I don't disagree that some people pay or treat their nannies poorly - nothing upsets me more than somebody docking a nanny's pay because they let them out early one day. And yes, the Park Slope parents survey is probably self-selecting in who reports. But to pretend all nannies are poorly paid or somehow abused by their "rich" employers is silly. My experience is the worst nanny abusers are not two hard-working parents but "stay at home moms" who have full time nannies (this is not to say this characterizing all stay at home moms with full time help). As rosma points out, it is an awkward relationship, and most people do the best they can. Nanny compensation is absolutely in line with most other jobs that do not require a formal education, and arguably higher. Somebody is not a bad person for employing a nanny ...

Woah. Just go to urbanbaby and youbemom and mumsnet (for UK, though European aupairs are more common there) to get an earful. Canada has a caregiver program that allows foreigners to work as a live-in caregiver (labo(u)r laws apply) and qualify for permanent residency (equiv. of green card but only 3 yrs to citizenship) in 3 years (can change employers).

If you pay way, way above the norms for your neighborhood, you will also be reamed by some for paying above market and making it hard for "normal" families to afford a nanny. I was once raked over the coals online for saying that I pay above the going rate for casual babysitting and that I never had any trouble getting competent babysitters.

There are a few daycares on the UWS (River School, Preschool of America, TenderCare) but for most, the hours don't quite work, and there's also the need to pick up older kids from school & schlep to activities.

In our neighborhood, it ranges from families who recruit non-English-speaking nannies from their own "home" country and pay under $500 for a 50 hour week to families who recruit only U.S.-born college-educated nannies and pay well over $20/hr. The former are poorly paid by the prevailing standards, but competition for these poorly paid jobs is very stiff.

Winston,

Good for you for choosing to pay your nanny an above-market wage. That has absolutely nothing to do with the prevailing wages and working conditions for nannies. nyc10023 is absolutely right on this one.

NYC10023 is saying $500 is low by the prevailing standards, and also that some nannies make $20 an hour. This suggests that $650 is close to median - which is as I pointed out close to the median income in most of the burroughs. So yes, some people underpay their nannies at $500 a week, but this is not the norm. This has been my point the entire time.

The going rate on UWS is 15/hr 1 kid, 18/hr 2 kids and 20/hr 3-4 kids. Nannies who tend to work for lower rates than these do not to speak English well. I can understand hiring a cleaning person or baby nurse who speaks poor English but hiring non English speaking caregiver for a child older than 6 months is a mistake. The money saved will go to tutors later on.

bela, back to original topic: I happen to agree with the notion that one is not to take down walls in pre-wars.
Open kitchens were born out of necessity and slap-dash design, and took hold as a trend. If you have a chance of having a real kitchen, why destroy it?

winston,

did you read nyc10023's post? he said that even jobs paying under $500 a week have stiff competition: a lot of people want those jobs. if the pay were really far lower than a "prevailing" wage, there wouldn't be competition for those jobs. the fact is, it is in the interest of rich people to claim that nannies are well-paid. the truth is that domestic workers are among the worst-protected workers in our society. they are paid little, work long hours, and do menial tasks (by definition they do the domestic work that rich people don't want to do for themselves).

just look at your response to my point that most nannies need to arrange childcare for their own children while they take care of rich people's kids. your response was that many of them live in intergenerational households and can leave the kids with a grandmother or aunt. of course, this suggests several things: 1. that they can't afford to live on their own on a nanny salary; 2. that it is rational to have a mother of a young child spend 50 hours a week taking care of someone else's child while her own is taken care of by someone else. 3. that those who do not live with their grandmothers and aunts are really screwed.

last point i'll make. it's amusing that you compare wages of nannies only to the supposed median wage in the outer boroughs. most nannies work in manhattan, do they not? income and wealth inequality have become so extreme that we no longer consider it even reasonable to compare wages with income in the place people actually work: the legions of nannies, masseuses, doormen, cleaning people, waiters and waitresses, teachers, musicians, hairdressers, shopkeepers, janitors, handymen, construction workers, cooks, personal trainers, tutors, and taxi drivers, among others who primp and pamper the rich people in manhattan essentially feed off the crumbs of their employers, customers, and clients. their incomes ought to be compared to the incomes of the people for whom they work, and to the incomes in the places they work.

bela, I found it most helpful to go to the architectect and design center on e. 58th. One of the showrooms is Clive Christian and they have some beautiful layouts of very formal areas updated with more open kitchen/dining room scenarios. i basically copied their archway ideas and incorporated them into our plans albeit on a far less opulent (and costly) scale. You may get some helpful ideas when you see these very formal but gorgeous schemes.

happyrenter....wow...just....wow

Open call to all architects out there to design a convertible kitchen that can be opened or closed on a whim. First and foremost it needs to be slick and virtually impossible to detect. I have had more than just fleeting thoughts of a design that could do just that, but unfortunately lack the intestinal fortitude or marital capital to implement it.

First, nyc10023 is a woman. Yes, there is competition for jobs that pay $500 a week. But she referred to this is "lower than the prevailing wage." bela just said she thinks the norm for nannies is $15 an hour for one kid. So now 3 people are basically confirming that $500 a week is the exception not the norm. The reality is there is are a lot of immigrants in this country who will compete for jobs that pay almost nothing; this is more a reflection of conditions in the rest of the world that make people want to leave their home countries for illegal, minimum wage jobs in the U.S. than it is of the nanny market in general. Yes, obvioulsy there are more nannies looking for jobs than $650+ per week positions or there would be no demand for $500 a week jobs.

But as you said yourself, it's in people's interest to pay their nannies well. This is why I do not believe the $500 a week job is the norm. Most people are not evil and care for the well-being of their children and try to pay their nanny well. This is the only point. You are refuting your own argument.

If you want to talk about wage inequality in general, fine. But I would make this point, which nobody makes anymore. The standard of living in this country is staggeringly high for most of the population, and staggeringly high compared to what is was even 50 years ago. My mother often says this - she grew up in an upper middle class environment, graduated high school in the late 60s, and mentions that most familis had one car, most people had only 6-7 outfits, she only went out to eat a handful of times her entire childhood, never went on a plane until she was 18, her house had one TV, etc. The average home in the U.S. is something like 2x the size it was back then. My nanny has an iphone, flew to Florida to attend a friend's wedding last weekend, goes out to eat most weekends, has plenty of clothes, etc. This is not to see there is not poverty in this country because there is - but I would argue the $650 a week nanny is NOT in poverty. But the "average" person can afford to put good food on the table, a roof on their head with space for a family, entertainment, etc. Yes, some people make 100x as much. Yes, some people cannot afford to live right next to where they work so they commute. Boo-hoo. I know some girls who worked in art galleries in SoHo right out of college. They couldn't afford rent in the neighborhood. So what? That point is meaningless.

You strike me as the ultimate limosine liberal. I have heard you talk about your love of the opera, some of the fancy restaurants you like, your apartment, etc. And now you are the savior of wage inequality?

"Open kitchens were born out of necessity and slap-dash design, and took hold as a trend. If you have a chance of having a real kitchen, why destroy it?"

A more common belief is that open kitchens became popular as women started to gain influence in the field of architecture and began designing homes to reflect how they wanted them to be structured (i.e. with women not shut away in the kitchen).

Also, I find it funny that people object to having fridges and microwaves interfere with their living areas while they have 52" flat screens bolted to the wall.

I like the Bobos in Paradise theory on open kitchens.... "A capacious kitchen with durable appliances is a sign that you do your own chores, sharing the gritty reality of everyday life, just as Gandhi and Karl Marx would have wanted you to."

I don't have a strongly formed opinion on nanny wages and historical trends of income distribution (esp. with regard to domestic service jobs) because I don't know all the facts. There are many seemingly contradictory things which I've observed about the nanny hours+wage situation in my neighborhood:

1) The median wage (as best as I can determine from neighborhood parent chit-chat) for a 50 hour week babysitter for 2 children, with at least one child not in a full-day program is above $500. How much above $500, I don't know.

2) People who hire nannies from their "home" country (may or may not have English skills) pay less. Based on what nannies have told me, $400/week wouldn't be uncommon. I was once approached by someone in this category who wanted to get her friend (with some experience) a job - I asked what her friend wanted for a salary, and I was told $1600+metrocard. Her friend did not speak much English. Some nannies with this background will not work for a family who is not from their home country. Also, you can't generalize as to the legal status of nannies in this category. Many have green cards.

3) A minority of employers pay on the books. Employers who pay on the books are probably on the more generous end of the scale ($1000 week gross).

164 West 79th Street offers some interesting takes on opening up various parts of the D line in a Classic 6:

12D has opened up the kitchen and merged it with the dining area
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/592666-coop-164-west-79th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

8D has opened up the dining room into the living room, converted the dining room to a study/ 3rd bedroom, and kept a galley kitchen
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/566560-coop-164-west-79th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

3D (no longer on the market) maintained the original bone structure of the line
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/554869-coop-164-west-79th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

FWIW, I prefer the layout of 12D – but we do a fair bit of entertaining and cook nearly every night.

TripleP - but none of those attempted to make the kitchen/dining room into an apartment version of a suburban eat-in kitchen/family room floor plan (at least I don't think I saw sofas and TV's in any of those pictures).

And the negative of 12D is that they took out the maid's bath, thereby leaving making the office/BR not as usable as a 3rd bedroom.

ph41 - see Bela's original post, which asks specifically about the combination kitchen/ dining, and not the suburban great room formation

>>My opinion is to keep the kitchen with all it's mess behind the wall but it seems to me that apartments where kitchen had been opened and combined with dining room sell faster.

Later, Bela indicates that they will try to combine the kitchen/ dining room

>> I would also like to thank the board for such active input on this topic. I think we will combine dining room with kitchen, drop the ceiling in both rooms so that it will match and put in lights.

In this case, I think the D line (and 12D in particular) makes for an interesting comparison.

i think what the people of 12D did shows exactly what one should NOT do in a prewar, to merge the kitchen with the "public" part of the apartment. my family room suggestion would have kept the family area and the formal areas separate.

i often find that people who use "suburban" as a dirty word don't realize that what they are actually communicating is the deeply rooted insecurity in the inferiority of their suburban roots and desperately require reassurance of how far they've come. not you personally, of course. you very well may have been to the penthouse born.

TripleP - see LucilleBluth's post of dream of kitchen/family room 20X20.

A lot about what someone does with apartments like these depends on where they are in life, and their life style in general. We chose to merge the maid's room into an eat-in kitchen (though we kept the maid's bathroom as a full 3rd bathroom). Sometimes I wish we had the maid's as a small guest room, but we use and enjoy cooking and eating (at a table, not a counter) in the kitchen everyday. Wouldn't have had as much use/enjoyment from the original maid's. We kept the dining room separate, but put double glass paned French doors between kitchen and dining room, so the spaces open easily into each other.

my dream is to live long enough to take a vacation to another planet. a kitchen/family room would just be kind of nice.

but does your answer confirm that you were not, in fact, to the penthouse born? you don't have to admit it, i know it and so do all your fancy new friends within speaking to you for like 3 seconds. enjoy the view, you've earned it.

And the "cooking" part of the kitchen is nor visible from the dining room.

Back to the original post. There are few (in fact, I don't ever remember having seen many on the UWS) where the kitchen is combined with the dining room to make a giant suburban-style kitchen. I've seen kitchen open to dining room, kitchen semi-open to dining room, and kitchen merged with maid's to make an eat-in kitchen, but the specific example posted by bela, not so much. Unless you count a poster's former apt (classic 7 at 771, part of DR added to K, but kept a DR).

I like this for a 3br from C6 dogleg layout. http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/106957-coop-164-west-79th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

I would have bumped out the wall a little for a larger 3rd br, and made a straighter line of vision from K to LR. Also, would not have had an office behind K, but used that space for an eat-in (with island!)

"Open kitchens were born out of necessity and slap-dash design, and took hold as a trend. If you have a chance of having a real kitchen, why destroy it?"

Open kitchens were born out of developers trying to park a Cadillac in a spot meant for a Prius; if they actually walled off the kitchen people would be left with absurdly tiny living rooms. By creating the "open kitchen", developers successfully snookered people into keeping a sink and kitchen appliances in the living room, but letting them think it's really a "kitchen". Brilliant, actually. For some ass-backwards reason it turned into a trend, even inside apartments that had more than enough space for a proper walled-off kitchen.

To see a statley Edwardian Building where the woodworking is torn down to make an "open kitchen" is heartbreaking. This kind of kitchen can do well in a post war building. It depends on the style. In the wrong building, it will also become the "harvest gold/avacodo appliances" of the future. The future is near.

"If you want to talk about wage inequality in general, fine. But I would make this point, which nobody makes anymore. The standard of living in this country is staggeringly high for most of the population, and staggeringly high compared to what is was even 50 years ago. My mother often says this - she grew up in an upper middle class environment, graduated high school in the late 60s, and mentions that most familis had one car, most people had only 6-7 outfits, she only went out to eat a handful of times her entire childhood, never went on a plane until she was 18, her house had one TV, etc. The average home in the U.S. is something like 2x the size it was back then. My nanny has an iphone, flew to Florida to attend a friend's wedding last weekend, goes out to eat most weekends, has plenty of clothes, etc. This is not to see there is not poverty in this country because there is - but I would argue the $650 a week nanny is NOT in poverty. But the "average" person can afford to put good food on the table, a roof on their head with space for a family, entertainment, etc. Yes, some people make 100x as much. Yes, some people cannot afford to live right next to where they work so they commute. Boo-hoo. I know some girls who worked in art galleries in SoHo right out of college. They couldn't afford rent in the neighborhood. So what? That point is meaningless."

***

We can point to all sorts of technological advances that everyone has today that most didn't have just 10 years ago, but it would be pointless.

Sure, your nanny has an iPhone. Who *doesn't* these days? Nannies 15 years ago also had running water in their apartments. Does that mean THEIR standard of living was "staggeringly high" compared to the nannies of the 1800s who didn't?

I would argue that the $650/week nanny IS, in fact, "in poverty", since she's not getting any medical or retirement benefits, can't afford a decent apartment (using the standard 40x income multiplier the best she could afford would be $845/month, and a challenge ANY of you to find me an apartment for that much that would also logistically work with her 11-hour workday which would preclude commutes longer than 45 minutes).

The usual "let them eat cake" argument for these unfortunate souls is ... go to school! Get an education so you can get a better job!

Um ... on $650/week? Which doesn't even pay for an adequate apartment, let alone food and electricity? Where would the money to go to school come from?

And what about the TIME? Working 11-hour days barely leaves time for the poor nanny to shower, let alone attend classes and do homework.

Honestly. Nannies in this city are treated like appliances. Pull them out when you need them, work the hell out of them (with no breaks) all day, then put them out of sight until you need them the next day. And by God she'd better not be one minute late, either!

The fancy woodworking is usually confined to LR, DR, entry hallway and libraries. I've never seen woodwork in maid's rooms to start with, even in original condition apartments (never even seen picture moulding in maid's rooms). I am a fan of preservation, and would advocate keeping original vintage cabinets, sinks, etc. But upon more careful analysis of renovated housing stock (6rm+), I've not even seen (except maybe the reconstituted examples at 321W78, the "merged" kitchen and DR. Semi-open, yes. But not every single DR came with fancy woodwork.

Fancy woodwork:
Beamed ceiling http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/578757-coop-171-west-71st-street-lincoln-square-new-york
Beamed ceiling + wood panelling http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/28228-coop-645-west-end-avenue-upper-west-side-new-york
Many examples at 44W77, but not in maid's rooms.
210W90
250W82

Co-op boards need to Just Say No! to renovation requests for open kitchens.

winstonnyc,

did i say i was the "savior of income inequality"? obviously i know that i benefit from our system, which rewards folks in my profession with outrageous compensation, and provides us with a huge supply of cheap labor to tend to our needs and desires. i am merely pointing out what should be blatantly obvious that a job that requires fifty plus hours a week of work, has no job security, no benefits, and pays in the neighborhood of $30k per year is a crappy job. not to mention that it's in the interest of the rich people benefiting from cheap labor to wax on about how great the nannies have it (she even has an iphone!). can we not at least acknowledge that these women are working hard doing the dirty work other people don't want to do and are paid badly for the privilege?

"can we not at least acknowledge that these women are working hard doing the dirty work other people don't want to do"

so much......you have a nanny, right? do you consider her taking care of your children as doing dirty work you and your wife don't want to do?

aboutready, its a cheap shot to suggest that people who employ nannies are generally so self-absorbed and that their only motivation is to have someone do their dirty work. many are, many are not. i know both. simple minded folk or someone with a larger agenda make such statements....

Its funny, but virtually all the $1MM+ or even $5MM+ kitchens you see in new construction here (or in LA or anywhere else I have looked) have open kitchens. Its unambiguously the preferred choice. Even when you are looking at 6,000 SF mini-mansions built in the last ten years, 90%+ have a +/- 1,000 SF open kitchen/family room.

This debate was decided in the market way back when I was a TEEN.