Huge terrace - how much value?

sometimes outdoor space is worth 33% to 50% of indoor space. If the access is directly from the living room, and not up a flight of stairs, then IMHO, it is worth more. But, if the apartment is "estate condition" that also plays into a valuation.

And 4,000 terrace is HUGE!!! Is this on the 2nd floor of the building? Which is very different than on the 19th floor (where many 60's buildings have terraces).

You idiot.

This is hfscomm1

I wouldn't necessarily just look at that unit on the market, but what sold in their building in the same line, how the building is holding up post-Lehman, what else is on the market in their neighborhood with this sort of roof deck (if any.)
There are two schools of thought on outdoor space: some people think it adds 10-15% to the value of the apartment, others calculate the square footage at 20-50% of the value of the indoor space. The variation depends on ease of access from the public rooms and amenities of the outdoor space (plants/sun/views, etc.) In your case, it has direct access from their living rooms and nice light and views. Is there a nice deck, some trees or flowers, or is it a tar beach?
Assuming the apartment below theirs is well-priced according to comps, and that the condition of both apartments (in term of renovations) is similar, you'd be looking at some premium for the higher floor, and at least $300,000 over for the outdoor, maybe as much as $900,000 extra.
They should schedule meetings with at least 4 or 5 brokers, some who have sold in their building/neighborhood, and get a feel for their promptness, attitude, knowledge and personality. They'll also get 4 or 5 estimates.

This is a bullshit op. Four thousand sq ft?

J Miller walked through all this, as an appraiser and in general. My take on his take is about a year old: http://www.realtown.com/sandymattingly/blog/loft-features-outdoor-space/riffing-with-the-miller-on-the-value-of-manhattan-terraces-decks-balconies/

I dont find 50% premium ppsf works in the real world. For a terrace that size, with easy LR access, I would say add about $250-$300 or so per sft as a premium for this terrace. The reason is because of the size.

If the similar unit would trade for say $1,000/sft. I would say your terrace is worth 250k-300k more. I would not go that high if it wasnt for being so large, and private access, not hallway/public access. Other questions I would have are, what floor is this on? You say not a super high? Does that mean 2nd floor? If its close to street level, I might take that down a bit..if its not, and has city views and privacy, I might take it up a bit. If its PH, I would take it up more.

Just my two cents. If you go the 50% of value for same unit with PPSF, your talking a 500k premium, and Im not sure the market will produce that bid for you...

trollpost, clearly

ph bit in the hope she could segway into talking about her ph

Thank you all for your input. Without giving away too many specifics, the unit is on a floor much closer to the 16th floor than the 2nd. It is certainly not a tar beach - the ground of the terrace has a finished look and is concrete. I should also add there are a couple of air conditioning/electrical devices in one corner of the terrace that are relatively concealed and emit some noise, but not a ton.

This is not your everyday 2 chairs and a table terrace. As a child, I was able to play 1-on-1 basketball on a small hoop or have a baseball catch with my Dad (I know, not a good idea) while 10 family members sat around a large table to have lunch, which my grandpa used an outdoor bbq to cook. Seriously, this thing is massive and totally private. One step up from the living room floor and through a glass door is how one accesses the space.

urbandigs - At 50% of the PPSF on a $1,000/sft unit, wouldn't a 4,000 sft terrace be worth an additional $2mm, not $500k?

ph41 - Are you saying 33-50% per square foot of the indoor space or 33-50% of the total indoor value regardless of terrace size?

Can it support a helicopter?

spinnaker - not sure if that is a joke or not but even though there is certainly enough room for a helicopter, I doubt the condo or the city would allow this.

"urbandigs - At 50% of the PPSF on a $1,000/sft unit, wouldn't a 4,000 sft terrace be worth an additional $2mm, not $500k?"

No, unless Im messing up the math. Its not a formula where you take 50% of interior PPSF and then multiply by total outside sft...there is no way the market would produce a bid 2M as a premium for that terrace.

What JM was basically saying, is that a terrace adds 25%-50% of the interior ppsf. Which means you need to add that premium and then multiply by the interior size of the unit. For example:

APT A - NO TERRACE - 1,000 sft - SAME LAYOUT sells for $1,000/sft or $1,000,000
APT B - BIG TERRACE - 1,000 sft - SAME LAYOUT sells for $1,250/sft (25% more) or $1,250,000 which values the terrace at 250,000

Im saying to add $250-$300 for a terrace that size to the interior sold ppsf of the similar unit without the terrace.

If that unit sold for $1,200/sft, then Im saying your unit should sell for around $1,450-$1,500/sft multiplied by the interior size which should be exactly the same as the comp without the outdoor space.

what about putting an above ground pool and building a deck around it so it looks like a real pool? 4000 sq ft...holy crap lucky you

rar2b - I heard condo boards were pretty lenient but you could be right, the noise and wind might be a problem for residents.

urbandigs - The thing about your math that doesn't make sense to me is that it does not take into account the size of the terrace. According to your formula, a 500 square foot terrace would be worth the same as the 4,000 square foot terrace. I can't imagine that this is the case.

btw - this is my opinion. the market will dictate ultimate value. A terrace that size, assuming the privacy and utility is as amazing as it sounds, and renovated w/ views helps too, should fetch a nice premium because the buyer that is looking for that product and has money for that product, is not getting many options. East of 2nd will hit the buyer pool a bit as its more desirable to be more west in that area. Dont get me wrong, its nice there, but a level lower than if it was west of 3rd.

If anything, u have a unique enough product to warrant testing the market for say 1-2 months. Thats when the action is anyway. If you price higher to test the market, just be cognizant that if you dont get that bid in the first 4-6 weeks, then the price was wrong. The seller rationale for this argument when I tell them, is..."well, that perfect buyer who will pay up and my # has not yet entered the market." Waiting for someone that is not there now, is a risky game.

you could build a frickin playground up there and you guys could run an outdoor private play space. big bucks in that, you know. the board would want a cut though. you could sell the apartment without the terrace, and build your own house up there.

rar2b, just do a Streeteasy search with your parameters and see at what people are willing to pay for a PRIVATE outdoor space, the one without any climbing involved. You'll see that they are willing to pay a lot.
The important things are the view (you said not much? big drawback), the location, the privacy. Is there water source? Is it planted/lighted? There was a tiny 2-bd (really a 1-bd with a niche), with entrance through their small terrace, with no privacy and no view whatsoever, although it was a newish penthouse — it sold quickly for the asking. I'm just trying to say that scientific approach to appraising doesn't always work.

rar2b - sorry, I wasnt clear and was just answering specifically to this large terrace the OP discussed. So, I use a tiered kind of formula, and go up or down based on privacy, utility, exposures, renovations..etc..

BALCONY --> adds about $25-$50/sft
SMALL TERRACE --> adds about $75-$125/sft
BIG TERRACE --> adds about $125-$175/sft
PRVT ROOFDECK or X-LRG TERRACE (like one discussed) --> can add upwards of $200-$300/sft

This is how I find the market works. I never kept the data I was seeing in the field, wish I did, so I cant track it.

Airstream Holiday Colony!

urbandigs - So based on your most recent post, this 4,000 sq ft terrace can add between $800k and $1.2mm correct? Or are you adding $200-$300 per sq ft to only the inside space?

stakan - When I said the view isn't much, I said that there isn't a view of things like the river, park, or empire state building. However, it isn't like it's staring at anything ugly, you are just surrounded by other highrises. There is defintely a water source (I remember filling up an inflatable pool with water from a hose outside) and it does have lights. There are a few plants hiding the air conditioning things but nothing major.

If people think a 4,000 sq ft terrace really adds only a couple hundred thousand, I need to get shopping for a new apartment. I will trade my 4,000 sq ft village loft for anyone else's of similar quality and the same size, and I will present you with a check for $300,000 for your 4,000 sq ft of additional outdoor space. Today, I am feeling generous. Make it $500K.

only to inside space...but again, read what I wrote after about the uniqueness of a terrace this size. We know very little about this 4000sft terrace. Honestly, once you get over 2000sft or so, I think the terrace's per sft premium degrades a bit, no? Is it really still 1:1 after a certain level?

Also, go ahead, ask $900,000 or $1M more, and test the market. lets use this as an example for how valuing a terrace works for ones so big.

does it have anything over it? like a terrace or balcony attached the apts above? or totally open?

Along the same lines, any possibility of building part of it out?

It is completely open - the building has more floors above this unit but nothing is directly above this terrace.

inonada - I am confused by your question.

my advice is to price it $400-$450/sft above what a similar comp would trade for per sft; I really hope you have a same line comp so we dont have to worry about size variable. And also keep in mind how your apt in general compares to that comp. If the comp was in XXX mint and yours is in 'good' condition, but yours has a 4000sft terrace, be careful when factoring the price and be sure to deduct work needed to put your unit on par with the comparable being analyzed. And floor difference. If the comp is 20 floors higher and has great views, that is worth something over a much lower floor that has a terrace. Cant just add your premium and not count what they may have as a premium over yours.

the point is to get an idea of what $400-$450/sft equals in dollar terms.

i would expect it to sell closer to $300 per sft higher, but lets see. Im very very curious. If it were 2007, I would go higher.

What's the maintenance like relative to other apartments in the building? If the terrace is adding a whopping amount to maintenance, that could negatively impact its worth. You'd need to find not only a buyer who was willing to pay X upfront, but also Y in maintenance each month.

With terraces that are larger than the apartment itself and with building maintenance formulas that allocate shares to outdoor space at around 50% of interior space, the maintenance can get real ugly real fast.

Build out 2000 square feet with funds received from selling roof rights to unit above. Keep 2000 as terrace and triple the selling price. I like how nads thinks.

rar2b -I think inonada was asking if you could build out from the wall of the apartment onto the terrace, e.g a solarium type room (dining, family room, etc.) You see this type of structure on many large terraces, particularly where, for example, the apartment itself might not have a large dining space.

And wbottom, no, I didn't SEGUE into anything (and if you're going to try to insult me, at least learn to spell).

Note sure about building out or maintenance fees - both good questions.

rar2b, really, try to conduct a detailed search, with all your parameters, and see for how much and how quickly the apartments sold. I think you'll like what you see. Also, the maintenance — you never said anything about that one...

You said it was a roof deck, so I thought that maybe there was nothing above it and therefore more inside space could be added. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

On pricing, the context for a 4000 sq ft terrace on a 1500 sq ft place is all wrong. If this were a 6000 sq ft place with 4000 sq ft of terracing, then getting $2M would be conceivable. But no one is going to pay $1.5M for a modest-sized interior and then $2M for a super-sized terrace. Most people spending $3.5M would rather have something else. So you're going to have to discount on a per sq ft basis.

I think getting $500K is a no-brainer. The client base at that price is looking for 1000-2000 sq ft terraces, so this would be pure gravy in comparison. Getting above $1M is unlikely because no one wants to spend more on the exterior than the interior. So I think starting n the $1M range is a good place.

I think that the solariums (solaria???) are not built as "permanent" structures, because that might also cause the building's FAR to be exceeded. So, at least from what I saw of one of those in my building, I don't think there was any extra maintenance imposed.

And, the other question is, are you SURE the building considers the entire square footage of your terrace to belong to the apartment? Again, in my building there is a setback which also includes some building mechanicals. When the owner of the apartment with a terrace that was a part of this setback began sort of "homesteading" the rest of the setback, the building made him backtrack to the original (much smaller) terrace sold as part of the apartment.

You might want to check out the building's prospectus to see the floorplan of the apartment as shown in the original sale documents.

I am almost positive that the entire terrace is part of the floor plan, though I will certainly make sure. As stated previously, there are some building mechanicals on the terrace but nothing huge or ridiculously noisy.

FWIW I agree with inonada's pricing approach above. (re:But no one is going to pay $1.5M for a modest-sized interior and then $2M for a super-sized terrace.). That might also be totally out of context for price levels within the building, and a lot of people may not want to have a super expensive unit in an otherwise moderately (well, NY style moderately priced) building, as they worry about resale value.

"Build out 2000 square feet with funds received from selling roof rights to unit above. Keep 2000 as terrace and triple the selling price. I like how nads thinks."

Given the size of the building, this seems unlikely. It's usually older / lower buildings that have FAR for growth. This building probably bought air right, I would imagine, and used it all.

Ph41's "temporary" solarium structure is a good idea and is plausible if no one else has windows onto the terrace.

I hope this doesn't add too big of a wrinkle into this discussion - the terrace is private in that the only people with access to it are those who own this particular unit. However, there are apartments above this unit with windows who can look down and see the terrace. Just want to make sure this is clear.

ah. so the sex club is out. dang. those can be profitable, too.

Here are two mirrored units on the 19th floor in CPS with great large terraces overlooking the park. The first left things as a 1100 2BR with a 1200 sq ft terrace. The second put up a 300 sq ft solarium to end up with 1400 interior and 900 exterior. The second works much better IMO: the exterior is incongruous with the relatively cramped interior on the first unit.

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/471095-condo-160-central-park-south-central-park-south-new-york
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/350571-condo-160-central-park-south-central-park-south-new-york

"However, there are apartments above this unit with windows who can look down and see the terrace. Just want to make sure this is clear."

I got that, rar. While you might have trouble from those apts in terms of putting up a solarium, there is absolutely no way it'd happen if there were windows at the same level as the terrace.

The top of the solarium would, I think, be at approximately the same level as the ceiling of the apartment, so not sure why it would be that different from the stacked balconies you see on so many 80's/90/s buildings. The people above you however might not like the extended roof line. You might want to check this whole thing out with an architect to investigate the possibilities (so you can position these possibilities in any sale advertising you do) before you go to the managing agent with ideas.

And Lucille, wouldn't a canopy work well?

rar: actually the apartment that I noted with the solarium built on the terraace has exactly the same arrangement as yours, with apartments above. The solarium has that glass, slightly slanting, curved edge roof thing

I had an agent from Corcoran come by my place for an appraisal in 2007. He took 1/3 of the total outdoor space and multiplied that number by the interior price per square foot. Whether that is appropriate or not is debatable. In this case, that could equate to an additional $1.3M for outdoor space (1/3 x 4,000 x $1,000 per square foot). However, I agree with urbandigs - 4000 square feet may be less valuable to a buyer beyond 2000 SF.

It appears the space is not landscaped. A dining table, two loungers, and BBQ do not make the space an urban oasis. Even if a buyer had the vision and resources to create an outdoor sanctuary on a grand scale (that is after all what everyone is oohing and ahhing about - the potential of the space - not the concrete finish), would they be satisfied with a $1.5M apartment attached to it? While 4000 square feet of outdoor space is unique, evokes dreams of helipads and koi ponds, and comes with "I have 4000 square feet of outdoor space", transforming the space to something more intimate from its current condition may be a hurdle for most buyers, reduce the number of potential buyers, and therefore may not be as valuable as perceived.

Simply covering the 4000 square feet with a beautifully clipped lawn would be dreamy though.

Inonada: If this were a 6000 sq ft place with 4000 sq ft of terracing, then getting $2M would be conceivable.

You're kidding right? 6000 sq feet interior with 4000 sq ft of terrace in the UES and you think $2m is "conceivable"? Would love to see your comps...

teddy- I think you misunderstood nada's post. He meant getting $2m just for the terrace , not for the entire apartment.

ph41 : thanks for clarifying.

And I think 6000sf is an assumption of the total area, 2000 being interior.

alanhart: thanks for further clarification. That said, based on what i see, 2000 sq ft interior 3brdrm with 4000 sq ft terrace in UES would pretty easily clear asking price of $2m...even if in estate condition. Am I off?

rar2b: ask anything less than $2m and the buyer will be laughing all the way to the bank.

teddy - if it's a 60's/70/s era building, I doubt very much that it is 2,000 sf. interior - I would guess, totally without info from rar, that it is probably under 1,500, and maybe even less.

And as inonada pointed out above, the maintenance $ allocated for terraces can seriously throw the maintenance for this apartment way way way out of wack with similar, non-terraced units in the building.

I think Ionada meant 6000sf of interior space plus the 4000sf terrace.

I agree with you teddydog. Given how rare a terrace of this size is, I think it is at least worth $1mm on its own. But I do understand other posters' comments about the size of the interior and the limited buyer universe given the mismatch in interior size vs exterior size.

ph41: fair points, duly noted and appreciated. However, assuming 1400-1500 sq ft, plus terrance in 60s bldg, maitnenance would probably be $3k, +/- $300... ?

rar2b: relieve us of our misery -- what is the interior sq footage and maintenance? How would you describe the general condition? Not to be nosey, but you did start the conversation...

Indoor square footage is ~1600sf; 3BR with 3 baths. I am not sure about the maintenance charges - will definitely find out. General condition of the apartment is good - it doesn't have brand new floors or a new Viking stove etc. but it doesn't feel old and doesn't have noticable damage.

Terrace has a finished concrete floor, has a water source and some lighting, but not much more in the way of decorating.

teddy - maintenance for a 1,500 sf. unit in doorman building WITHOUT a terrace would easily be in the $1.50/ft (low side) to $2.00/ft or a little more on the high side, so if you use $1.75/ft the maintenance without the terrace is already at over $2,600. And I tend to think that the apartment was socked with a lot more than $400/mo extra in maintenance for the terrace.

And I agree with you - come on rar2b - some other pertinent details (such as interior sf and monthly maintenance) would definitely add to the usefulness of the input you're getting.

ph41 - I am giving you the details that I know of. I do not personally own the unit so I don't know what the maintenance charges are. Please see post above.

i prefer segway--as in ride one off a cliff, or a terrace

but do tell us about your non-marginal williamsburg penthouse--how do you price it?

And rar - we also understand how difficult it is to look at your parents' apartment, and its condition, objectively, as a prospective purchaser would. If, for example the terrace is basically unlandscaped except for a few chairs, table, and barbecue grill. it doesn't show well.

And it's also hard to tell your parents that their kitchen and bathrooms, while being fine for their own use, may not really be up to the scrutiny of the buyers in today's market, who, when paying top dollar often want that brand, spanking new feel, or, alternatively, want a bargain basement price for an apartment requiring total renovation.

FWIW, a purchaser in my building just got that "bargain basement price" for an estate condition 1,800 sf 2 BR/3 BTH with terrace apartment that required, and is getting, a TOTAL gut renovation (including removing all ceilings, floors, etc.)

ph41: how much did that lucky buyer pay? is that UES?

And, to top it off, it was a sponsor sale, so no board approval.

ph41 - Point certainly taken. This apartment is neither brand spaking new nor should it require many renovations.

I am just looking for a reasonable value range here. Based on comps in this building, I am confident that the indoor space alone is worth ~$1000 per sf. Now I am just trying to get a range on the additional value that the terrace will provide. According to all the posts above, people think it can be anywhere from $350k to $1mm. That is a huge range so I am hoping more people will chime in so I can get a tighter range.

Again - rar - how large is the interior space, and what is the maintenance? Without those numbers, your trying to get a "tighter range" from SE posters is like asking the blind man to figure out the elephant.

You won't get a tighter range, because (as people here have noted) two factors weigh very heavily on value:
1. maintenance (shares) accruing from outdoor space -- each building has its own way of dealing with that
2. views and other "feelgood" aspects to being on said space. What does it look onto? What looks onto it? What kind of light/noise/pollution does it get?

Buyers will also want to know what the unit owner's responsibilities are with respect to maintaining/replacing the roof, damage to property below it, and coop/condo's right to shut it down for repairs (which have been known to drag on for years) without compensation ... sometimes even for storage of materials used for other projects entirely.

ph41: rar estimated interior at 1600sf.

rar2b: sounds like a great, and unique apartment. I dont think you will have any trouble getting over $2m and I would push for $2.2 as a starting point. Dont bother with renovations -- that will take 3-4 months minimum, which means you miss the peak buying season. The prospective buyers will see the value and grab the chance to redo the kitchen + bathrooms in their individual taste. Just clean it up and declutter it. Worst case, pull it off the market if you cant get your ask, and do whatever renovations you can afford and re-list. Compared with a lot of the junk for sale, this sounds like an easy one...

I don't get the impression that rar's parents are interested in selling, just in gauging value for the sake of knowing ... am I wrong?

rar2b: your parents' terrance is about 10x this size and look at what this, admittedly stale, listing is asking:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/411959-coop-315-east-70th-street-lenox-hill-new-york

(personally i think the above would clear at ~$1.75m.....)

They are thinking about putting the place on the market in the next few months. I am just conducting some preliminary research for them.

alanhart: I don't get the impression that rar's parents are interested in selling, just in gauging value for the sake of knowing ... am I wrong?

rar2b: say it isnt so...

Thanks teddy. My parents' unit also has a 3rd bathroom and is on a higher floor than that listing.

ph41: fess up -- what did buyer pay in your building?

Teddy - it isn't so. Look at my post before yours.

rar2b: good lord, cant they just "gift" it to you and live in the guest room? :)
Seriously though, sounds like a little nugget of gold and hope you get a damn good broker to squeeze every penny for what its worth. Good luck...

teddy - that listing at 315 East 70th shows the problem - it may be about 1,200 sf or slightly more, very "standard" layout,same crappy parquet floors, though with a nice terrace,and not excessive maintenance, and they're asking almost $2m? Down just a little from the original $2.2m ask. The 2 BR;s in that building have sold mostly in the 990,000 and under range, and that is why your particular apartment will have a problem. It will sit and sit, dying the death of a thousand teeny tiny cuts, as it gets more and more stale.

ph41 - The owner of 315 E 70th pricing his terrace at ~$1mm (difference of $2mm and $990k)is not the same as my parents pricing their terrace at $1mm because as Teddy explained, my parents' terrace is 10x the size of this one.

I agree that this particular listing is overpriced but it is not really apples to apples.

rar - how does your parents' apartment look vs. 315 E. 70th street? (And try to have a truly dispassionate eye).

I would say the overall conditions/floors/walls of each unit are similar, though I will admit that the furniture is a bit nicer in 315 E 70th St which may allow it to show better.

But don't forget that my parents' unit has a 3rd bathroom and the terrace dwarfs the one 315 E 70th. Not even close.

rar2b: Ok, so 1600 sq ft 3bd, 3 bathroom, good condition in UES, with 4000 sq ft terrance on pretty high floor with reasonably nice view. Figure you get $1000 psf interior plus 50% of 1/3 of terrance gets you a cool $2.2m. But dont be modest, ask for better and see if anyone bites...whats your downside? We could really use the maintenance figure though... worth a call to parents so you can post?

ph41: good eye on the sq foot of the 315 70th place. Looks like the ask is off by at least $500k... I guess the direct proximity to the 2nd Ave subway construction doesnt help either... rar2b, does that affect your parents place?

OK so the third bathroom is what? 40sf? definitely worth something in convenience but worth at least $150,000 more than the other apartment? And if you are estimating the apartment at 1,600 sf. judging by your post about a comparable unit listed at $1,000/ft for 41.5M, it would seem that your parents' apartment is no more than 1,500 sf (if you can even believe the other listing's sf claims).

And you still won't say what the maintenance is, which would lead one to believe that it must be killer.

ph41 - I don't know why you assume that I know the maintenance but am not sharing it. I seriously do not know! What would I get out of purposely holding back this info if the maintenance is really high? I am looking for an accurate range - whether that is higher or lower than the number that I think it should be is fine. Having people tell me the terrace is worth $1mm doesn't help me if this is a ridiculously high number compared to what it should be. Again, I am looking for accuracy, not just a huge number, even though I hope the accurate number is in fact huge.

rar2b, instead of going around in circles on this, why not pick up the phone and call your parents to say Hi (you don't write, you don't call, they never hear from you, it's as if you disowned them after all they've done for you) and ask them what the maintenance is, then let us know. Then you can get a much more precise, informed estimate to work with.

Also, the $1.5mm number is for the same unit (without the terrace of course), but others in this line have sold for a bit more or a bit less over the past year or so. I can assure you that this unit is closer to 1600 sf than 1500 and $1000 per sf in this building is a very accurate estimate based on previous sales of all units in the building.

rar2b - take alan's advice and find out the maintenance (and also whether the prospectus show the entire terrace as being part of the apartment).

FTR, I meant that if you had an apt that had 6000 sq ft of interior going for $6M, I could see adding a 4000 sq ft terrace could command another $2M. But if you have 1500 sq ft of interior goin for $1.5M, 4000 sq ft of exterior won't bring you an extra $2M.

Realistically, a 6000 sq ft apt won't be at $6M, but more like $12M or $18M because the market for that kind of size requires something beyond generic $1000 a sq ft space. Add a 4000 sq ft terrace onto that, the terrace would have no problem fetching an additional $4M. But in your "lowly" space, you may get $1M tops. Half of the discount is from the terrace being generically located (not overlooking the park, for example), but the other half of it is from being attached to the "wrong" apt.

If terrace-free comps went for $1.5M, and I saw this listed at $2.5M, I wouldn't be surprised. If it were listed for $2M, I'm guessing you'd have a contract with newbuyer99 within a week.

I think 30yrs summarized outdoor space valuation well. The value of an exterior space depends on what it's added to. Add a 4000 sqft outdoor space to a top floor Park Avenue 4000 sqft apt. Hmm, stratospheric. Add a 4000 sqft outdoor space to a small 3b,3b postwar (?) co-op around 2nd Avenue, I dunno. You have to look at what 6m (or whatever you think it's worth) can buy someone today.

nyc10023: where did you get $6m? I thought we all agreed it should list for $2.5m? Since when is 1600 sq ft considered small in the UES? I'm not saying its huge, but "small?"

Inonada: thanks for clarification. I figure there would be a bun fight if it listed for $2m.

rar2b: you need to supply maintenance data in order to sustain this threat beyond here, or else watch it implode into dopey comments from the peanut gallery...

FWIW, I consider 1600 sq ft for a 3BR to be small too. I think you need to be at 1800 to get a "normal" stamp, and 2400 to get a "large" stamp. How often do you see a 3BR appreciably smaller than 1600? Maybe 1450 is as low as it gets.

On the other hand, my classification for a normal 2BR is 1300, and I consider 1050 small, but you do get those 850 sq ft ones. I guess I view those as a 1BR with a wall, which is often how they've been made.

Maybe "tiny" would be a nicer term...

But then there are those 600 sq ft ones in tenements. Call those "microscopic"?

Didn't read the whole thread - got the sense that the original poster wants to be told that it's 1k/foot interior and exterior which would put it at 5m. Did everyone agree on 2.5?

No maintenance data yet, but it is confirmed that the entire terrace is part of the floorplan of this unit (100% owned by the owners of this unit).

What's underneath the terrace? Residential? Office? Retail? Parking? Something else, like theater?

Some possible comps perhaps?

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/479306-coop-401-east-74th-street-upper-east-side-new-york
Over 1100 square feet of fabulous South and East facing terrace complement this wonderful bright and sunny three bedroom, 3.5 bath Upper East Side co-operative. The interior space is approx. 2,400 square feet

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/552356-condo-300-east-79th-street-upper-east-side-new-york
ROOFTOP TERRACE with open city views.

1st one sold for 2.535

Nothing close to 4,000 sf terrace

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/78959-condop-425-east-63rd-street-lenox-hill-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/578697-coop-315-east-72nd-street-upper-east-side-new-york

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/586169-coop-505-e-79th-st-yorkville-new-york

As I said earlier this whole thing is bullshit.

Dwell - in the 74th street example, it started out at $3.4M and as noah pointed out sold for $2.535 (a very hefty cut). And, this one is 50% larger than the OP's has been renovated out the kazoo.

And in the condo on East 79th, they must be smoking something. "private roof terrace" ACCESSED THROUGH THE STAIR CORE!!! LOL - go out of your apartment, climb the fire stairs (carrying your drinks and snacks), to get to your "private roof terrace". No wonder it's been on the market since 2008, when it started at $5.750

You really shouldn't get too hung up on the 4,000 sf. What it's attached to does matter as NYC10023 pointed out.