building at 1212 Fifth Avenue

Only a handful of floorplans, though. And the blurb on the website suggests that they considered creating only 2 apartments per floor - while the floorplans show a 1 bed, 2 bed and an awkward 2 bed. Would love to see the half floor plans - 3000 sq ft family apts.

Curious about pricing as well, so happy to bump!

The half-floor combos are at http://1212fifthavenue.com/content/pdf/

Any thoughts on pricing on this? I think if it is any more then $1k PSF it is too much

Rob- I'm interested in people's thoughts on this as well. Any comments on the area too greatly appreciated.

Per today's WSJ - $1,500 sq ft

1500 is way too much for Harlem! Should be about $1100.

It is beautiful on 5th to have the park across the street, but there are a lot of negatives. 1) near hospital so you will here sirens all of the time. 2) you are in Harlem 3) hood gets bad if you walk east
4) no stores nearby. I think it would sell WELL around 900-975 psf will languish at 1100 or more PSF. People will buy but VERY slowly at that price. I think at 1500psf it will NOT sell at all. Look at 1280 fifth the new one on 110 street. Has not sold one apt at an avg price of 1200 psf and it has been on the market for over a year. Only 7 blocks away!

Lovely building, lovely apartments, crappy neighborhood.

what better way to make a neighborhood better than to start re-vitalizing a new neighborhood with new, modern day, jaw dropping sustainability that this developer is currently beginning to build . There are a lot of nieghborhoods in nyc that the city is trying to re-vitalize....Lots of them are in Brooklyn, a lot of West side Manhattan areas....maybe when all is said and done, more stores may pop up....

if you look at the picture on the streeteasy page of 1212 it shows a new high rise behind 1212- what building is that?

I think it's a Mt. Sinai building.

Its being built by Durst Fetner (same people who are refurbishing 1212). Part is Mt Sinai, part will be rentals. Its gone up pretty fast.

please post prices if anyone has bothered inquiring

3b $2,560,000 – cc $2,572 tx $1,693
5b $2,610,000 – cc $2,584 tx $1,726
7b $2,660,000 – cc $2,597 tx $1,759
10b $2,785,000 – cc $2,630 tx $1,842

Crazy priceing for 103rd street with high monthlies

Oh my goodness!!! Those prices do not belong in that area, those are prices fitting for luxury apartments on 72nd street and below.

anyone see these units? What do you think of pricing?

very disappointing on all fronts but for cp views---tiny rooms--esp the "living/dining--big $psf and monthlies

way better value at 1158 1165 and 1170 5th

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/566889-coop-1165-fifth-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york

NY Times article, The Appraisal: "What Once Seemed Too Far Is Now Just Right"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/09/nyregion/1212-Fifth-Ave-No-Longer-Seems-Too-Far.html?emc=tnt&tntemail1=y

this times article is such crap

"Just a few weeks after the sales office opened, six apartments are in contract or on the verge, he said."

brokerspeak to address that there are few or no contracts--and 1200 5th is still slogging after years on the market, despite it's description as a success--1280 5th is a basically a disaster with few sales at all

i was just ther and they told me 4 contracts

i think the pricing is just a little too rich for harlem- you have no neighborhood to speak of- except for central park across the street. Where do u go for groceries, drugstore or dry cleaners. Have to travel to 96 & park. Big Projects behind buliding make me nervous too- cant really head west or you are in a bad neighborhood. i think the units would do well in the 1000-1100 psf price range but at 1300-1500 it is way too high- those are prices for great neighborhoods not harlem!

there are established coops on 5th and 97th and 98th that are better buys based on every metric--why would anyone buy these??

Wbottom - there are though differences between coops and condos. For example, in 1165 fifth which you refer you one cant have more than 50 percent financing which excludes a lot of buyers. For those who aren't multimillionaires but would like to live on fifth avenue there are not that many options so condos like 1212 fill the gap. Probably not at 1500 psf, but for the right price may still be a good choice.

Rob 360 - I actually lived in this area for few years. It is actually a fantastic location. Walking to 96 st or even down to 80s for groceries was no hassle at all. There is a local drugstore on 102nd by madison. Dry cleaners will pick and deliver. Some restaurant delivery services wouldnt go above 96th street though so that was an issue. I wouldn't call going to 96th and park a travel. The express buses stop just in front of the building so is very accessible indeed. And one can walk over to the park. All in all we didn't find the location bad, but whether it is worth the money is another question. I suspect the new rental tower behind will also mean 1200,1212, and 1215 are not just 'surrounded by projects'. If though you are willing to pay 1100 and not 1300 then really the issue for you is not the neighborhood, but the price.

The area is just fine--but the building is too expensive for what it is. The apartments (which I have seen) feel a bit cramped and claustrophobic, even with nice large windows. And most have limited park views. 1280 Fifth is a more interesting choice (though admittedly in a worse location).

how long do you think it is before they realize they made a mistake in pricing? how long did it take 1280 to come to their senses?

There is a prime difference between 1280 and 1212 which is location. There are no comp buildings around 1280 that had sold at $1,500 psf as 1280 had initially priced some of their units so it would be dreaming for them to expect anyone to pay that sort of money for a condo up in east harlem.

Whereas for 1212 there are comparable units in its immediate vicinity (like 1200 and 1215 fifth) that have sold for as much as 1,700 psqf in recent years so the pricing at 1212 is certainly not insensible to the degree that the pricing at 1280 was. Indeed a 2 bed is listed at 1215 for 1,750,000 now, which even considering the park views is relatively steep and most recent sales have been in magnitude of 1400 or more psq for park views, also with high maintenance costs. And in 1200 for all its problems, most units that sold did so for up to 1700 psqf, albiet in better economic times.

True 1212 may be somewhat overpriced but certainly not to a degree that one would liken to the unrealistic initial pricing at 1280. I doubt you will see as much great downward shift in 1212 prices as was seen in 1280.

As a good buddy of mine once said about a certain neighborhood in Boston, you can't move the " projects".....we watched as several light skinned open minded people moved into the "new luxury places" only to be robbed, mugged & attacked on a repeated basis, so much so that they sold as quickly as they had decided to move in.

While the neighborhood is nice the Neighbor is not. Mt. Sinai has ambulances running all night and regardless of traffic each unit whether it FDNY, Hatzollah, Mt. Sinai they all abuse the sirens. It would be nice if Mt. Sinai would at least respect the quiet zone which is supposed to start at 96th Street and only use those sirens when absolutely necessary. Many ambulances are idling along 5th avenue in this area as well.

They increased the prices of all the A line apartments by 150,000 last week. Why would a 'new' development be putting up prices after just several weeks on the market and with the condominium not even effective? Why were increases limited to the A line? What are the likely explanations for such a move?

Does anyone have an idea about the reasonable public transport to here from midtown? Walking from here east to Lexington to take the local 6 doesn't seem

The M1, M2, M3, and M4 will take you directly down 5th to midtown. That, or a ~7 dollar cab ride.

Why would walking to the 6 or to the 2/3 be hard? Its 3 blocks to the 6 and one block (!!!) to the 2/3.

I can tell you for certain that unless you work at the Pierre Hotel, taking the subway will be faster. I live at 101st and even from there the limited bus takes longer to mid-town than the local subway.

3 blk cakewalk to the 6

and i gotta whole lotta love for the limited busses, in gen'l

2/3, jason, is a loooong block away

transport is fine, but this bldg will be a poor investment for buyers who sell before they are toe-tagged

Oh, its definitely overpriced. It is DEFNITELY in HARLEM. Deep in. Not "upper Carnegie Hill."

I think the pricing is a joke with the high carrying costs. I can't really see any positives in it- live in harlem, not great layouts with small windows, near the noisy hospital, no grocery,dry cleaning or deli close by, places wont deliver to you b/c u are above 96th street, CRAZY high pricing and high taxes and carrying costs. I would love to know who the 6 dopes are who signed contracts at those levels!
A fool and his money are easily parted.

Places deliver above 96th from Yorkville and Carnegie Hill. Just not that far up.

Yeah, I am a huge uptown cheerleader and I can't see the justification. Will be interesting to see what they actually go for.

Thanks Jason. I actually wasn't aware of the 2,3, but realistically, while I'm ok walking to Lex at 103rd in daylight, I am not at night, and don't want my wife doing that any time and my daughters when the time would come, and the 2,3 option is worse from that point of view.

anyone know what's the story with the $26K garage fees here? there are no alternatives anywhere in the area...
On top of the $26K, you still need to pay the monthly fee for the garage at probably $500...
anyone here know anything else about this?

Wait did I say 2/3? Silly me. Mixing up 1280 and this bldg.

Anyway if your the type who is afraid for white women walking in daylight in Harlem (which I see EVERY DAY) then this or about half of Manhaattan is not for you.

Also run and be afraid of large parts of the UWS and Chelsea. Try Salt Lake City.

Another friend you want to give a guided tour to?

Was at 1212 for many years. Was mugged once in the area, on 101st St between Fifth and Mad. The walk to the subway is somewhat perilous as you walk right in the midst of the projects. Most occupants of 1212, if they were going to use the subway at night, chose to walk from the 96th St stop rather than the 103rd, which is in the midst of a poor neighborhood. Frankly, I always used 103 and never had a problem.

It used to be advantageous to park your car across the street, but the garage was converted into a hospital building and the street direction was reversed, so you can no longer drive straight to the FDR entrance on 102nd Street even if you could park next door. There used to be a movie theater and grocery store on 102 and Mad, but both are long gone. The biggest problem is the noise from Mount Sinai - it used to be quiet, but once they moved the ambulance bay and garbage to 101st Street, there was noise all night long. All the morning light is now gone thanks to the sliver building built to the east, so the only advantage of 1212 is now the view of the Park, but only the top few floors see anything but the big tree across the street.

>>>Frankly, I always used 103 and never had a problem.

If you like the octagon

Octagon?

twinco>>so the only advantage of 1212 is now the view of the Park, but only the top few floors see anything but the big tree across the street.

So that means then that 95 percent of apartments in the city have no advantage to living in them because their is no 'view'?

Not at all, Matsui. But what you're paying for here, given the price per square foot, is an address that is on the park. If you're going to pay the price, you should see the park, no? Otherwise, you may as well have an apartment on a side street that is the same size with a much lower cost per square foot. Alternatively, you could pay a few extra dollars and have an apartment a few blocks to the south that has access to grocery stores, less noise from the neighboring hospital, and a safer walk to the subway. Let's face it...even the Penthouse at 1212 has no view at all from inside the apartment due to the height of the building's exterior - you have to walk onto the terrace to get a view, and for 5 months of the year, you won't be doing much of that.

Clearly, though, we see things differently, and I suppose it's difficult for me to justify the million dollar asking prices for apartments that just a few years ago were renting for $1000 or less per month. You should hear the stories from the last tenant in the building, whose family had been there since 1212 first became available (1927, if I recall correctly), and who was the last rent controlled tenant to get bought out, about what it was that made the building so attractive originally and how those features were lost in the renovation. Even the historic cast iron front doors to the building were replaced. If this were a brand new building, there would be nothing wrong with what has been done. The new construction is attractive, the designs elegant, and the pricing is consistent with other structures in the area. But if it had been restored rather than renovated, it would have been astounding and eagerly sought after.

Twinco: Yes we do see things differently, probably because I did not grow up in a city like NY where more people live in the skies than on the ground. Most other towns I have lived are where the prime accomodations to live are not skyscrapers, and there would have been a line of houses opposite this park maybe just two or three stories tall, or even bungalows - all those buidings would cost far more than those buildings not directly facing the park despite the fact that they do not have the view of treetops, or clear the treetops to see buildings on the other side of the park. Trees and nature, as opposed to concrete does constitute a 'view' even at ground level. I have a first floor office in my work and happen to look accross a park and many who enter still comment on the nice 'view'.

You clearly had a deep affection for this building in its prior state and, seemingly, some gripe with the new developers, and/or the manner in which they have refashioned it, but I dont think we could deny that living accross a park on fifth is different from living on a side street, even if one is just on the 3rd floor, or arguably still even if one does not have good direct view of the park. It is not just about seeing the park, it is also about being across it and not having a row of houses opposite you.

As regards pricing, 1212 pricing is actually priced much less than 1200 next door (you have not commented on 1200, did you feel the renovation and pricing was more appropriate?) so maybe the developers see too all the deficiencies you describe. The 1000 dollar or less rent per month paid recently by someone who lived there since 1927 would not though reflect the market value of the apartments so we cannot use that as a barometer. The prices are still excessive, I agree, but as you say are not too out of place for comparable units in the area. If it had been restored rather than renovated, the prices would likely have been even higher - if people arent buying the apartments at the existing expensive prices, why would they be expected to have paid even more because the units had been restored? Especially when there is still no view...

I would not compare pricing to 1200 fifth, clearly that pricing is insane as they have not sold an apt since 2010! The units currently on the market have been on and off for over 4 years! The apts they did sell were in a different economy. Both buildings need to get real on pricing. 1212 keeps saying they are close to meeting their 15% sold but there have been no new contracts signed in months. Economy is only getting worse and if you have 3m to spend you are dumb to buy on 103 street in Harlem - more likely these people will take their 3m and go farther down fifth or park!

...this is the Durst from Durst Fetner Organization - the developer of the project:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nypost.com%2Fp%2Fnews%2Flocal%2Fcops_eye_his_wife_vanish_YV8NyJxIYcelgrdW3bA2YK&rct=j&q=durst%20murder%20nypost&ei=qSCnTpm0JY6XhQf40dmPDg&usg=AFQjCNFY8Bd8dqtYpi8UQrRbkJ6vRFUQ8Q&sig2=4CnY_m0_ykcWORQjxHHtBw

Rob 360: I suspect the major reason behind the halt of sales at 1200 may be the lawsuit brought against the sponsors by the residents for construction related deficiencies. I dont think any attorney would advise a buyer to go ahead with a contract until that issue is resolved, regardless of price. I do agree though that the pricing achieved at 1200 pre 2010 would not be achievable in the present era and I am suspect the sponsors would be willing to fling the remaining units well below asking. Regardless, I suspect many propective buyers would be scared away when they read the details of the lawsuit(s) against the sponsor.

I am not sure though about your skepticism about 1212. I was just looking today on SE and see that they have increased the price of their one bedroom line, so either someone must have confidence in the ability to sell the units or they are losing their mind. The 3 bed line (which I presume you refer to when you say the apts cost 3m?) was increased too a few weeks ago.

Interestingly the six apartments that were listed as "in contract" before on SE are now listed as no longer available (nine apartments are listed as "no longer available" whatever that means???). May well be a sign of activity, assuming they are off the market because they are sold, unless its some game being played by the sponsors. Whatever the explanation, if they are increasing prices, it is unlikely that they are getting zero interest as you suggesst.

Both of these buildings are interesting in that they are "prewar" condos, on 5th Avenue, at less then stratospheric prices. That being said, any address in the triple digits, even on Fifth Ave. should sell at a significant discount to below 96th. But there most likely will be buyers willing to take the plunge. Another advantage is that these condo full building rehabs is that the apartments are move-in ready. Similar prewar coops usually need a costly, time consuming renovation. And the whole process of getting into a prewar coop is daunting, especially any of the prewars on Fifth. So to reiterate, 1212 and 1220 both fill an interesting niche.

Matsui: Yes, I agree with your statements concerning the view. For a time, we had a place in 1136 Fifth on a low floor with a view of the park across the street, and yes, that was indeed better than a side street, but we also had the noise of passing traffic, which was significantly worse than one has on a side street. The major benefits of the upper floors in 1212 used to include the tranquility of the back of the apartments facing the east and north. There was a grand view to the east of the Triboro Bridge, now gone due to the tall sliver building.

The 1200 rehab was interesting in that the apartments were basically left intact with the plaster walls still in one piece. The problems are two-fold. First, buyers were lied to about the construction that was about to take place to the east. Sinai already had their plans in place for their new building on Madison Avenue that would cut off the eastern view, but when I looked at apartments in 1200 shortly after they became available, I was told that there was no major construction on the block in the offing. And of course the northeast view went away with the sliver building as well. So much for morning sun. The other problem was that because the walls weren't gutted to the extent 1212 was, the guts of the building couldn't be replaced to the extent that they have been in 1212. So yes, there's a double-edged sword here. Old buildings often have difficulty with water pressure, with old electrical wiring, and with leaks around the windows and from the roof. Durst/Fetner has tried to address this in 1212, but in doing so destroyed everything that made the apartments pre-war. I've been arguing for a middle ground. Keep the original flooring, the plaster walls, but run new electrical and water lines. This can be accomplished at a cost - less than a total gut renovation but more than what was done at 1200 - and the cost would include some minor amounts of space lost to running the new lines outside of the existing wallspace.

Your points certainly carry weight - if someone coming in has no interest in the pre-war character of the building, they'll be fine. Of course, I still wonder about the new layouts, which have far less closet space than the old layouts, the new windows, which don't allow you to push up the window without interfering with window treatments, or the elimination of all the bathroom windows (which just doesn't make any sense to me at all - who doesn't want natural light in their bathroom if they can have it?).

I don't have any real gripe with the developer - he's doing whatever he thinks will make money, and it's his building to do what he likes with. I'm sorry for what has been lost in the process, however, as there are fewer and fewer genuine pre-war apartments left on 5th Avenue. For some reason, CPW has been much more attentive to the historic nature of these apartments and developers there have not damaged the older buildings on that avenue.

Back in the 70s, for a time, I was at 50 E 89th Street - a new construction apartment building (the "Park Regis"). It was awful. You could hear your neighbors through paper-thin walls. The HVAC system was always blowing and never warm in the winter. You weren't allowed to bring a bicycle through the lobby, which was ridiculously decorated and expensive. 1212 at that point had been recently purchased by Mount Sinai and was having very little money put into it, but was much more comfortable with its 1920's era lobby, unadorned but for the original furniture, art glass windows to the east, brass fixtures and steam heat.

By the way, I keep forgetting to look at the new 1212 lobby when I walk through -- were the cast iron and art glass windows to the east retained? They were beautiful and included some original stained glass at least through 2010. You could see them from the front door on Fifth if you looked straight back to the east. I know the ceiling was restored as I keep looking at the nice job done with that but I always miss the rest.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20111216/REAL_ESTATE/111219910/1178

Durst / Fetner sure has their hooks deep into Crains. Says 50% in contract or spoken for and in the same paragraph said the building just went effective (15%) three weeks back. This developer is a scary bunch. They opened way back in the Summer (6 mos ago) not 3. Some influence if you can have Crains mis represent so blatantly. These guys take spin to a new (low) level.

Nice objective touch using Stephen Kliegerman of Terra Holdings to add comment and legitimacy. Terra holdings who owns brown Harris Stevens, who bought feathered nest from Nancy Packes, who is the Marketing Agent. So very tricky. But they are a smart hard working group.

The first apartment sold, trumpeted loudly in the referenced article, sold to an insider at Durst/Fetner. So I'd hardly make a big deal about it. It appears that what sold was the Penthouse, which is actually the top floor of what was originally a duplex. The main problem with what remains as the Penthouse, besides the everpresent mildew problem, was the galley kitchen that was added after the conversion in the early 1940s from one apartment to two. The original kitchen for that floor was on 15 (now irrationally referred to as 16) and was a grand two room layout with a butler's pantry full of cabinetry.

The article also mistakenly refers to 1212's former life as housing Mount Sinai staffers. The building was originally a rental unit and wasn't purchased by Mount Sinai until the early 70s. For many years after that, units were available to new tenants as they were vacated. Since the building was largely rent controlled and stabilized, few tenants left through the 80s and 90s. Then, Mount Sinai, facing a space crunch elsewhere, began to rent apartments only to staff. Given MSMC's proximity, tenants often worked at Mount Sinai ever since the building opened, but it wasn't until very recently that Sinai actually housed staff members there.

Nobody is even talking about this building anymore. Twinco, not sure what you are going on about. Fetner is managing the building for 5 years. They know it will take that long to sell out. Hoping the durst fetner brain trust will weigh in with some insight.

My grandparents lived their for decades, nice building. Area is fine.

I am starting a renovation in one of the apartments within the next week, as soon as we get approved. From my site visits it looks to be a very nice building with very nice interiors.

So this building must be doing well afterall. They just increased all their prices on all lines last week, the second series of price increases, and quite a few apartments have closed. Surprisingly even those non-park facing units which have been criticized for lacking a view and being shadowed by mt sinai hospital buildings seem to be selling.

Comparisons with 1280 fifth can certainly now be put to rest, as the latter building is still struggling, has reduced prices at least once, and it remains unclear if anyone has actually closed, with getting to two years of units being on the market. So whatever we may pretend, these is East Harlem and there is East Harlem - 101st St and 109th street are not the same...

And they are asking buyers to pay the transfer tax and seller's attorney cost. I have not heard of that since 07.

Primer, did you start work here? What are your thoughts on the building?

1212 is nice, but 1280 is nicer. Problem w 1280 is: it is too big; the kitchen cabinet facades are hideous; and it is TOO FAR NORTH. But the views are MUCH better than 1212 from all sides, and the building has better amenities. The 1280 marketing strategy of using cheesy modern furniture that looks like a hotel was a bad one. 1212 models are better staged.

Jbutton,

Sorry I didn't see your post earlier

We are finishing a project on Tuesday at 1212 5th. I like the building very much I work in a lot of the newer buildings and I usually find a lot of flaws. Here the finishes seem to be very good. I will post photo's next week of the finished product

irc666...I would think the top 4 foors of 1212 that face the park would have better views than almost all of 1280? you get park views due west, southwest and northwest. also, what are the better amenities?
primer05...what size apt are you working on?

We are finishing ups 3 bedroom, about 2,300 sq ft

Thank you primer. Seems like they did a solid job on this project. Gut renovated, prewar, condo; there cant be too many of these on 5th ave and CP. Im not surprised the prices are climbing as we enter the active buying season (im guessing its the active season). Curious what the asking rents will be at 4 east 102nd (the 43 story building behind 1212). Probably have to wait until the summer to find out

lrc666: "Problem w 1280 is: it is too big; the kitchen cabinet facades are hideous". How true! Those designer kitchens are awful. Finding the refrigerator is like playing Where's Waldo?

thanks for the thumbs up Primer05. I'm moving into one of those soon.

How much were the prices increased?

Skyflex,

You are welcome.

it depends on the unit. 3-7% was the latest increase.

The benefit of 1280 is that you're not near Mount Sinai. 1212 residents will quickly find out that Mount Sinai is noisy - from the ambulance/garbage bay on 101st St to the active transporting of ambulatory patients on 102nd Street - from the HVAC equipment to the trucks beeping as they reverse, etc. All this is absent from 1280, and who cares about the kitchen cabinets? If you have enough money to buy the apartment, you've got the money to go to Ikea and put on whatever kitchen cabinetry you'd like. And maybe, just maybe, you actually have the skills necessary to put up a table saw and make the doors yourself. That's what we always did -- looks much better than buying something off the shelf.

Twinco I find it interesting that you continue your campaign against 1212. I really wonder what gripe, displeasure, bias or conflict of interest drives you as you have been vociferous in your almost single-handed criticism of this buidling on numerous fronts. You have even gone to the 1280 thread and opened criticisms of 1212 there!

Either the market does not agree with your evaluation, or maybe the things important to you are not important to those who seek apartments on upper fifth avenue. Ambulances or no ambulances, units at 1212 have increased in price by about 10 percent in less than a year on market; in contrast units at 1280 have decreased in price. 1212 is supposedly more than half sold with multiple closings on record; 1280 is barely sold and as of last month we knew of no closings on record. When will you give up your attack on 1212 and accept that it is doing better by far than 1280? If one looks at other buildings adjacent to the hospital at 101 and 102 st (1200 and 1215), neither has been unsuccessful and both suffer the noise and other problems you state. Indeed 1200, the closest to the hospital sold apartments for over 1700 USD psf in its hey days.

As regards kitchen cabinet doors (and I don't know what those look like) people dont spend that sort of money on an apartment that is being asked by these buildings only to have to go to IKEA to buy cheap cabinet doors or to have to saw out doors themselves. Part of buying a new development is the choice of not needing to renovate and having finishings commensurate with what you are paying for. I would hope that if I had the money to spend on a fifth avenue apartment opposite the park, that I would not also be making my own cabinetry with a table saw.

Matsui, my discussion has nothing to do with which building I think will sell better. In fact, the arguments I've been making against 1212 - namely the proximity of Mount Sinai - are the arguments that have undoubtedly led to the apartments selling to those who work at Mount Sinai, or who want the convenience of a hospital right next door! When push comes to shove, convenience of the workplace wins out over location for many New Yorkers. Were I a physician with an office at Sinai, I would live at 1200 or 1212 despite the annoyances I've mentioned as opposed to walking up to 1280. So the market is right where you and I both expect it to be. We're on the same page on that count.

As for why 1280 is doing so poorly, though, I've no idea. I know very little about 1280, having never lived there or even known anyone who lived there.

You are, however, wrong about what people do who spend money. Those of us who spend $1-10M for a home or apartment also shop at Ikea and Home Depot. I have no trouble spending several million dollars for a home, but also have no trouble handling power tools and rather enjoy making cabinets that are far superior to the junk typically installed during the average renovation in the City. And having done exactly that, I've come to find that many of my neighbors have been like-minded. BUT...and this is a big but, if the buyers are largely from out of town (or out of the USA entirely), they will want exactly what you describe.

I'm clearly wedded to the Fifth Avenue of the past - where residents did, in fact, build their own cabinetry, where the art lining their walls was a creation they or a family member created, and where the historic lines and angles of the plaster reigned supreme. Those days are gone, and you (and others here) represent the present and future. I mourn the passing of the 1920s apartments as did, I suppose, the Victorians who mourned the passing of their mansions as they were replaced by the 1920s 14-16 floor structures. Some of those were saved, and I hope some of ours will be saved as well. 1200/1212/1215 were three of a kind that were all in nearly-original condition until very recently. Now only 1215 survives with its original plaster and hardwood though given its conversion several decades ago, I imagine that very few of the kitchens/baths survive in their original form.

Finally, the only other reason why I suspect I have a different perspective from others here would be that I actually lived there, slept there, and worked there. I'm not sure that others here have that same history.

I will tell you why it's selling poorly junior - it is priced for prime manhattan and located deep in harlem. Which part of that you don't understand.

As for why 1280 is doing so poorly, though, I've no idea. I know very little about 1280, having never lived there or even known anyone who lived there.

i will tell you why it is selling poorly junior - it is priced for prime manhattan and located deep in harlem. which part of that dont you understand?

good post twinco. I just think 1280 is priced a little too high and buyers have more info than ever to compare and asess properties and there locations. It is deeper into harlem than 1212 (its not deep into harlem proper) but I dont think its just about Harlem. Harlem is one component of value. To a certain extent lower prices begin to occur in any local niegborhood that begins to put distance between itself and all of Manhattan below 96th st. I've never walkied into 1280. 1212 is great. and after living for many years in the east village and flatiron district, i understand Twinco's desitre to reminisce.

I dont think 1280 is doing poorly, I think streeteasy hasnt updated yet. I bought an apartment there and it hasnt shown up as closed yet on streeteasy, and I closed early april. I think in the next couple weeks you will see a slew of sales pop up in streeteasy, or go from in contract to closed. Yes, its further up in harlem than 1212, but as a five or ten year bet that will make a small difference. The apartments I looked at in 1212 had no view of CP. And you dont have an ambulance bay in your backyard. And no, it is definitely not priced like prime manhattan real estate. I moved from riverside boulevard on the west side, thats 1500 psf and up. 1280 is at a huge disco to that. 1000 psf for a modern building on CP will pan out...especially with treasury bonds yielding 2% and US stocks up 20% since september...and about to take a nosedive because of europe unravelling and 2bn trading mistakes that will probably end up as 10bn trading mistakes at the more reputable banks. and tight credit means rents will continue to go up so from an investment perspective its a no brainer if you are looking for an investment opp.

and after all those mistakes and europe and after stock market nosedives, your harlem luxury condo will appreciate?
cmon man

He said 5-10 years, jbutton. Please. It will happen by a DECADE from now.

Anyway...for SE and the 1212 cheerleaders - notice how the NYT article on 1212 kept saying its "East Harlem", not this made up place called "Upper Carnegie Hill?"

While at 1212, our family often talked about how others responded to our address. We'd give the street address and people would say, "Ohhh...Fifth Avenue...nice" and then they'd ask the cross street. We'd mumble "102nd St." and they'd look at their feet and mutter something about Harlem. Or we'd try to arrange for grocery deliveries or pickup for our kids for school and be told, "We only go to 96th Street." It was a shame, but on the other hand, with the Projects on a Superblock just one block to the east, and with the Park Avenue train line above ground rattling through the area regularly, we understood why folks treated us differently. Even in the 1970s, we figured that would change at some point given how rapidly prices were rising south of 96th street. I agree with those who think that one day, 1200 addresses on Fifth will be treated on par with the 1150's and below, but I think that day is much further in the future than would be worthwhile of an investment. If you want to live there, great, by all means do so. But don't pick it because you think it's a worthwhile investment.

I guess time will tell. Ten years ago when I was a grad student at Columbia no one wanted to live east of Morningside. Now there are lots of new condos there and on FDB. Columbia's expansion certainly wont hurt.

As I predicted, we are seeing the beginning on a major leg down in stocks, thanks to the European situation and a weak jobs report today We've erased all the gains for the calendar year. US Treasury bonds yielding almost nothing, sub 1.50% now. Cap rates here ~5%, and yes harlem prices will be sticky even in a stock correction for a couple reasons. harlem never bounced back from the lows, not nearly as much as the rest of manhattan, so it cheap, relatively. and this stock bottom will be quicker than the 2009 bottom because so many investors missed the bounce there. so real estate in general will be stickier in this go round.

JM, harlem never bounced ok, but 1212 is priced at 1600-1700/sq foot, 1280 at what 1500 sqft. I say that is way over rest of harlem and will come down

Will the area improve over time given that it is righy by central park? I mean, look at areas like Williamsburg or downtown Brooklyn... they seemed to have done well psf-wise over the last few years... .

harlem is cheap to brooklyn in my opinion. i know in 1280 you can get closer to 1000psf, even lower, if you dont have a direct park view, with full park view are more like 1500psf and a fantastic investment as well because the views are amazing, at least in 1280. there has been lots of press about harlem being attractive for real estate esp nyt recently, and it will continue. whole foods is rumoured to be opening in harlem as well. 1212 should price about 20% more than 1280 for apples to apples type apartments ( ie similar configuration, view, etc) thats fair value in my opinion. it will continue to develop for sure, its the cheapest part of manhattan where you still have easy access to midtown and downtown.

1280 should not be priced at more than 1000 sq ft and 1212 maybe 1200 so lots of room to go down. if your investment strategy depends on whole foods you are in trouble. also there's easy access to midtown and downtown from Astoria too. what about yorkville, sutton place, midtown east?

clearly my investment strategy doesnt depend on whole foods. It's a simple thesis based on bond yields almost negligible, global stock outlook negative, and a NYC neighborhood that never bounced back after the fin crisis with a fifth ave address and CP location. Worst case scenario I can rent it and still get a 5 cap rate. A big mistake a lot if people make is not looking at real estate versus other financial assets. Its an investment. Most of NY real estate will go sideways but there are definitely pockets of opportunity as there are in every asset class when you drill down, stocks bonds currencies commodities.

This is funny.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/realestate/a-three-bedroom-anywhere-is-fine.html?pagewanted=1

when fifth ave and Central Park are extended to run through astoria please let me know I will buy there too

1212 5th ave just got their LEED Gold rating. The super came from a LEED Platinum building in Battery Park City. Not only has this building been selling fast but they spared no expense to actually get competent staff there. when i went to the sales office to take a look at one of their condos, this lady was telling us that this guy is one of the best in new york, and he was a pleasure to meet. I also met the super at 1200 and 1214, they seem very nice also......their(1212) prices have not decreased either, they are now 75% full.....I would still be reluctant to buy this far up though......

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wtf