One Brooklyn Bridge Park

wow that sounds like a good deal to me. Nobu is good food :)

Wow, could you guys use some witness? Hire me if I will be offered miso glazed cod. :)
BTW, just got update from the sales team last weekend: still only 31% sold. That's half a year after the 35% price chop in sept 2009... 2 years after the first recorded closing & 2.5 years after the first listing, including a bulk purchase (the NYTimes story). Just unbelievable! I had thought they should have at least reached 35% - 40% sold.
Toren, Oro, Forte, 1 Hanson all reached a similar or higher mark even before any price ajustement.
So you think you got the last one on the 10 line? Now they've opened the 13 line, which is exactly the mirror of the 10 and has units available on the highest floor? That's exactly what's called shadow inventory. Still more than 200 units that are not even listed yet. Quite scary, I have to admit.

I'll meet with you Truth. As I said many times, I always want all the information I can get positive and negative. To be clear, I do not have a deed as I am in contract at OBBP. And I could never get RAL to show up at Franklin Tower or anywhere else as I do not know him. But I certainly would like to set this matter straight. Email me at gatornyc@hotmail.com. By the way, I am not on vacation, I'm back from it.

leom, why are you getting updates from the OBBP sales team? Looking to switch teams from Forte to OBBP :)

I think the sold number is much closer to if not above 35% if you include the units in contract. Can't compare Oro or Forte to OBBP as the price ranges in the building are very different (I don't think that they reached that number before price cuts either). And Toren hardly looks like a successful project at the moment. OBBP didn't lower prices soon enough, no question about it. But is has been doing well since the price cuts recording both high end sales and lower end sales, like mine :). There's no doubt that in today's economy and given the size of the building that its going to take time. But the completion of Pier 1 and 6 and OBBP being featured on an upcoming episode of HGTV's new series "Selling New York" will certainly help.

As for the 13 line, I was well aware of it and looked at the units before I went into contract on the 10 line. It is the same floor plan but a mirror image of it. I can't explain it well, but for my wife and I the mirror image just didn't have the same presence/impact. Must be a right/left handed thing! We much preferred the 10 line. Show me any building of a decent size that lists all of the units it has for sale, its just not done and OBBP certainly didn't hide any units from us.

there you go gator, take that offer. You 2 let us all know how this pans out.

I toured OBBP the first week they slashed price and remain on their mailing list. To be honest, all the lines (except 18) I looked into at that time still have availability as of last weekend. My wife and I can't be happier that we didn't pull the trigger b/c of the 35% discount. Now eveytime it's snowing or windy, we joke to each other: imagine us dragging our kid on Joralemon under today's weather. :)
Generally speaking, even prime BH seems so overpriced today. We've got update for comparable charming prewar Tudor City listings that are 30% cheaper now. Some 3 bd that had asked for 1.2m recently sold in the low 900 or high 800k. Crazy! If I have ever had second thoughts, it's about nowhere in Bkln but Manhattan. Let's get it straight: who doesn't want to walk to work and be in the only borough that's not "outer"? :)
As you're counting "in contract", Toren has close to 50% in this category. I doubt the majority will not be closing, b/c how many of them can afford to throw 10% deposit away? Forte had closed 38 out of 108 before the recent price slash. 1 Hanson did the best in this regard, where the price even ticked up a bit after a 20% discount brought in buyers.
There is a reason OBBP doesn't sell briskly despite a huge drop in price. I am so surprised those 05, 41, 28 lines etc with at least one exposure to water/harbor still have availabity 6 month after a >30% discount. Why?!
The sales pace at OBBP would qualify for "decent" if the ajustment were 10-20% even in this economy. And structually, it's very weird. As you mentioned, some 2m or even 8m units got sold but folks with this deep pocket, ironically, are not likely to live there full time. Studio, 1bd, cheaper BQE facing units are also going faster but that's mostly for bachelor or couple w/o kids. Where will all those family friendly large 2bd2bth with nice full or partial harbor view priced 1 - 1.5pm go???
My point about 13 line is buyers shouldn't rush when a building has a low sold percentage. The choices are still plenty at a later stage. Put it on your watch list, wait for the momentum, you'll still have 200 units to choose from when it breaks 50%.

Leom, positives and negatives to everything. Would I like OBBP to be closer to transportation on a snowy/windy day like today...sure. But how great will it be to be able to walk out of the building most of the year and immediately be in the middle of the Park and on the water. :) I drove by Forte the other day and I just could never imagine living there. To each their own. As we've agreed previously we each made the right decision for us.

Got to disagree with you about Manhattan though. I've lived in Manhattan and truly enjoyed it. But honestly I prefer Brooklyn. I love the BH, CH, CG area. I have never wanted to walk to work and I enjoy leaving Manhattan at the end of the day. I'm a Brooklynite and proud of it!

Regarding Toren, I'm not sure so that all those people will in fact be closing. At those purchase prices many may be significantly more than 10% underwater if they were to close now and those who bought expecting to sell in 3-7 years may have no choice but to walk away. How many of those 38 units sold at Forte prior to building going to the lender (foreclosure) were sold at a discount?

As for OBBP, I consider it to be selling briskly, but this brings up a issue that we've debated before. Is Forte more successful because it sold 38 of 108 units when at the same point in time OBBP sold 134 of 448 units. Sure its roughly the same percentage but I would say no as 3.5 times as many buyers chose OBBP. OBBP's issue is primarily one of size. Selling 108 units at OBBP is only 25%, but it would have sold out Forte. I'm not surprised that there are some 05, 41, and 28 units left. Again its about zize and OBBP has alot of units.

I think the other issue, which is starting to alleviate, is the difficulty of obtaining jumbo mortgages particularly in a new condo development. The addition of Wells Fargo, and I hear Bank of America, helps this significantly. Forte and Oro weren't priced at a point where any jumbo's were necessary.

As for your point about the 13 line, we didn't rush, it was the right time for us. The 10 line was the line that we wanted and our lease is coming up so we wanted to do it now, not a year from now. Interest rates are also really important to me and I think they will be appreciably higher a year from now. Another reason for someone with a long time horizon, like me, not to wait.

Well, there you go, Gator. The above commenters made some good points. I've pointed out that if you like living there, then it's good for you. There's just no need to rush in, for others who may also want to buy.
When we meet, I will bring along the note and card, that I received in the mail, post-dated Jan.8, 2008; sent from a broker at Stribling, at RAL's request. He was trying to convince me to buy an apartment there. I told him that prices were too high, and there's not even a market there, to run out for toilet paper. He told me that a market was going to be built, soon. It's now Feb.2010 -- no market.

He also tried to get me to buy a studio, which I had no interest in. The price was way too high. He then told me he would put me down for a $one million dollar one-bedroom, in the upcoming, soon to be built Towers.

So, I didn't fall for it. If I had, I'd be living there now, and be unable to sell -- at any price.

Exactly, there are positives and negatives to everything. But Forte is the same Forte as two years ago. With the same positives and negatives, it got sold out only b/c the price is realistic now. Toren would close much faster if folks in contract could get a discount. OBBP wouldn't have made those cheaper units move w/o making them eligible for conforming loans. Conclusion: the pricing must match the affordability of one's target potential buyers, which doesn't support any single development in Blkn with hundreds of million dollar apts.
My bet is they will have to lower the price again(!) on harbor view (partial or full) units after this round of 35% discounts helps get rid of the cheaper units. Except NY economy or real estate market make a dramatic change for the better AND the mortgage rates remain this low for at least 1-2 years (both seem highly unlikely to me though).

Thanks,leom. That's my point and other people do agree with me.
Just sent an e-mail to Gator.

Truth, I get what you're saying, and I actually don't doubt what you said in your last post. My question is from what you've said about RAL, how is he any different than any other developer? They all contact the people they know to try to get them to buy units; it's what they do, it's their business. As for the market, the economy killed the retail at OBBP. Post Jan 8, 2008 is still significantly pre-Lehman so can't say I blame RAL for thinking he would get retail into the building. There is a lot of information out there that RAL was in substantial negotiations for the retail space at OBBP. The completion of Pier 6 will provide transit access to the building and sufficent foot traffic to support retail. It will come as indicated by the recent leases being signed for the retail space on Columbia Street. Anyway, I will respond to your email shortly and we can discuss further.

Leom, we'll see what happens, but those more expensive harbor view units are selling also. A building this size is not going to sell out in a year in this econmony and I think RAL and the lenders understand this. Especially in today's zero interest rate environment, it is very inexpensive for the lender to be patient. We'll see what happens, but one buyer just took six expensive units of the market. Nothing bad about that.

If you look from another perspective, however, that bulk purchase alone lifted the soldness by 1.5%. Which is to say, the rest finally reached less than 30% sold (29.5% to be precise) ... 6 months after a drastic 35% price drop! Many buildings in LIC, Williamwburg, downtown Bkln did much better with a not so steep discount (the norm I noticed is -20%). So in addition to pricing, I'd add that the less than ideal location, pollution & construction concerns etc indeed seem to bother many potential buyers.
The scale of the development can not fully justify the low soldness. B/c it's supposed to be able to attract a larger buyers pool, with a wider range of products from studio for bachelor to 2bd2bth for middle class family to mega multiplex for the super rich. That should create economony of scales instead, such as lower common charges per unit, shuttle service, stronger salesteam, the TV show you mentioned, omnipresent ads on NYTimes & streeteasy, buzz in the newspaper, etc. If it remains severely undersold 2.5 years after opening despite all the above mentionned, then there must be some hardcore issues with the development proper.
BTW, I invite anyone blown away by the bulk purchase to analyze the news. It looks like a huge deal b/c of the sheer size. The units price is barely $900/sf, similar to any decent old coops in Manhattan. That's the best Obbp can do for the highest floors with best view and huge terrace? Not very impressive. Furthermore, you never know the backstage actions in this kind of deal the developper must have been desperate to make happen in order to create some buzz. He could have agreed to take care of combining the units, which could easily cost hundreds of thousands. (He's got the previous buyer's deposit of 600k!) It's like Warren Buffett didn't need to pick the very bottom of Goldman Sachs to get a sweet deal: he got preferred stock with a juicy 10% dividend yield. Bottomline is: we are not Warren Buffett but common shareholders, who'd throw away tens of thousands of hardly earned household income if the apt lost 5% in value!

I posted the beginning part of this comment previously in another thread.

"My unit is ~550psf. I see it for the long term as I will now have a space that both my wife and I personally love and is big enough for our small family. There is no need for us to look for anything bigger. 1430 sq ft is completely adequate for us. I am seriously thinking long long term.

Risk. Everyone has there own level of tolerance. As I said, I am not going to be going anywhere for a long time and I have been looking for a long time for the right place. We live in the area now and have not found a single other unit in Brooklyn Heights / Cobble Hill / Carroll Gardens (the areas we are looking in) that we like, is big enough, and is at the right price. So we feel very comfortable with our decision.

We have have friends in the area, our child has friends in the area and goes to school here, and we are very fond of these neighborhoods. So for us, it was the right choice. We know another family that feels the same and is looking to place an offer as well."

It appears that Truth has a serious vendetta against RAL and is using this forum as an outlet to express her rage. Maybe she should confront him face to face and settle her issue once and for all rather than bash him here? Steel cage match?

Leom, I am on the same page as gator. I am glad you found a giant space at a reasonable price but I personally could never live over at Forte. BH/CH/CG are probably the best areas to have families nowadays in New York (my opinion). I also would never live in Manhattan again. It is completely unappealing. Maybe its because I am older and have a family now. I like the neighborhood feel and the family friendly environment of these brooklyn areas, hence I live here.

The walk to transportation makes me laugh every time I hear someone comment on it. I currently live in a brownstone in cobble hill and my walk to the train is the exact same distance as the walk from OBBP to the train. I have been doing it everyday for three years and never once thought about that distance being any sort of a trek or hassle.

kg2 - I respect your choice. But you opinion only explains why a third of the building (your part) has been sold. Actually, in any market at any time, there's au audience for any development. One of my favorite quote on SE is: even during the Great Depression or Japanese lost decade, there were people buying and seling homes. Don't need to look into history archives to guess this is most probably true. :)
However, it doesn't address the fact that OBBP sits two thirds empty for 2.5 years, which reflects the rest of the market in general and many buyers/investors' feeling towards this development in particular.

31% sold after YEARS.

wowzuh, are they screwed.

Well, there's somewhereelse: We haven't always been in agreement, but we don't get nasty with each other. I do agree with him here.

kg2: A steel cage match with RAL?!!! I could slap him down to the ground with one hand tied behind my back. He's a wussy. No vendetta, only what I know about him, from knowing him. Play him at his own game. He will have to reduce prices, and if you wait, you will purchase for less. What happens in the future after that; is your problem.

Received a return e-mail from Gator. He's not a bad guy -- just defensive. His occupation calls for that. So does mine, except that I'm an independent publicist because I don't do spin. If you messed up -- don't come to hire me to lie for you. I'm not interested in that. Have refused BIG money, to avoid being in that position.

But Gator insists that I'm on virtually every string, talking shit about RAL. Not True. And, I did not even start posting here on this site, until Jan.2010.
I've discussed Whole Foods vs. other food retailers. Good places for a country home. The best shows on HGTV, ect. No mention of RAL or OBBP. Only on a few strings, where it was relevant. Check for yourselves. If I wanted to, I would have been posting comments about RAL, years ago here.

Thanks for the offers to be witnesses. Yes, Nobu is good food!

Truth, so much for our truce and taking this off the board. I never said you were on virtually every string nor that you've been on SE talking shit about for years. This is beyond tiresome. From your two emails and my own research (I know exactly who you are) I now understand why you think the way you do about RAL and it has absolutely no bearing or relevance to my or anyone else's decision making process regarding OBBP. I'll respond to your most recent email soon and I'll still meet with you, but in most respects I don't see the point. But I'm done with this war of words on SE.

leom, kg2's post was spot on so there's not much left to say. I just think that your arguments regarding OBBP are inconsistent with your purchase at Forte. You bought in Forte when it had sold 38 of 108 units roughly the same percentage at OBBP. Did you know that Forte would sell out? Of course not. And your numbers are self fulfilling. You know full well that it takes time to close and then for the closings to show up on ACRIS. Yes the price cuts at OBBP were a bit more than five months ago, but how many closings should have happened in that time? It takes time to negotiate the purchse and contract, arrange financing, and get to closing (e.g., I made my first offer in late Nov and I'm still weeks away from closing, but you disregard my purchase and many like it). Its takes months, particularly in this market and you know this full well because many Forte buyers have yet to close despite having their bids accepted months ago. Yet you keep throwing up the sold number which is essentially pre-price cuts. I'm not suggesting that OBBP is a slam dunk and that there is no risk (Forte certianly wasn't either), I'm just saying that OBBP is hardly doomed; rather, that it will take time but OBBP will make it and sell out as traction increases from the opening of the Park, high-profile sales in the building, etc.

Pollution? Yeah, the air quality of Forte in Downtown Brooklyn is so much better (it is downwind of the BQE you know). Construction concerns? Where are you getting this from? And from reading the Forte threads sounds like you have a few of them in your building, i.e, the windows! And I never said that the scale of OBBP fully explains it "lack of soldness." I've also pointed out that jumbo mortgages are very difficult to obtain and that OBBP took too long to drop prices. You think OBBP's location is "less than ideal," I could never live at Forte's location. Reasonable minds will just have to disagree on that one. And what buildings in LIC, Williamsburg and Downtown Brooklyn are you referring to that did so much better? I'll give you One Hanson. What others? Not Oro or Forte or Toren in Downtown Brooklyn. Nothing I can think of in Williamsburg (not Nothside Piers or Edge that's for sure). I mean Forte was in the same position as OBBP before it went under, was taken over by the lender and firesaled so there must be hardcore issues with the development proper there as well, no? On second thought, maybe there was still a lot to say.

You even manage to find negatives in the sale of 6 units to one buyer which sets the record for a condo purchase in Brooklyn. Yeah that's terrible news because it only fetched $900 sq/ft. I thought smart developers were supposed to drop prices to get units sold in this economy and real estate market. But when they do you consider it to be "not very impressive" and criticize the building for doing so? Completely nonsensical argument. Yeah, OBBP should have turned the buyer and his $8.5 million cash away.

These are same tired arguments that are just continually retread here. I'm going to start a google group for potential buyers/buyers/residents of OBBP. If you're interested in joining the group please email me at gatornyc@hotmail.com.

Gator: What did I say here, to make you get upset with me, again?
I did respond to your last e-mail to me. You didn't get back to me, instead you came back here.
Don't do me any favors, Gator. I'll meet with Leom, instead, and show him what I have, although he hasn't challenged me to prove my identity.

Leom, post your E-mail. I will respond to it.

Good luck with your google group, Gator.

Truth, its the other way around. I hadn't posted anything on this thread since last night. Four or so hours ago you posted and renewed our dispute with "But Gator insists...," which I might add you said in your first email to me that you would not bring up on the board. That's what bothered me; I didn't come back here and say anything about you (but you did).

P.S. I hadn't responded yet to your second email because I was working etc. but I will respond. Like I said, I would be happy to meet with you and hear you out but based on the information you've already provided and the information I located I think I know all I need to (its amazing what a simple internet search will turn up).

As for the google group, I've already received a number of emails, but again all potential buyers or residents of OBBP email me at gatornyc@hotmail.com if you are interested in joining the group. I should have it up within the next day or so.

Gator, agree that this conversation has grown tiresome (again), as on all the threads btwn you (and no more than three other defensive "in contract"s) and 10 objective observers, many of which have no interest whatsoever talking OBBP down. So just quickly:
Don't genelize "just b/c sales at OBBP is sluggish, it must be so anywhere". The momentum at Forte is just another level that it would be ridiculous to compare what people see & feel there with at OBBP. Even back then, anyone with 4th grader math skills could tell it would reach 50% sold so easily: 108*50% - 38sold - 4 developper's group deals = 12, while offers were being put down every 30 mn on the first weekend after the price cut; OH had to be cancelled b/c of the crowd that came by word of mouth; my colleague had to wait for a whole week to get an appointment on the first openning of the broker's showing calendar; fellow potential buyers were disclosing useful info on SE and exchanging points of view in a very constructive way that's unheard of in any OBBP discussion board... Stategically, I put down the offer within 30mn after the broker called me the line & fl I wanted were available but held the contracts until other "contracts out" would lift the soldness to 60%, which took, however, only 2 weeks or so. Of course I know it takes time to close. That's the reason why Forte has 55 in contracts on SE vs 3 at OBBP??? Gator, do I need to remind you that you are not in charge of the sales of OBBP and your only priority is to take care of your own investment?
Being upset is no excuse for pronouncing your opinion in detriment of basic facts. You must be a genius to be the one & only who ever associate Forte w. BQE. So eye opening: it is 0.5 mile from BQE if you do a quick search on google map. A longer distance than the 0.4 mile btwn OBBP & Borough Hall subway station (BH's total width!), while your windows are triple exposed (both bds living) right above BQE. Plz read real BH & DUMBO residents' comments on today's homepage about soot & noise from BQE for your own sake:
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/18626-brooklyn-heights-dumbo-and-the-bqe
My philosophy in purchasing RE as well as in life is simple: if you might be biased b/c of your position, try (hard) to listen to the people who don't have interests involved to get a more objective judgement.
Truth, you can drop me a line at leomoftec@sina.com. You know one can't resist to know the truth over a glass of wine: in vino veritas. :)

Oh Gator, Gator, Gator: Look, good luck with your google page. Really. I won't be going there.

I didn't realize that there was a stipulation that bars me from coming back here to clarify a previous comment you made. Sorry.

Since you now know exactly who I am (although there are several publicists with my same name; even here in N.Y.) there's no need for us to meet. I have never been arrested nor convicted of a crime. I have no credit card debt (or debt of any kind, not even a mortgage). My credit score is 830. I have never screwed anybody on a business deal. I don't litter. I don't cut the express line at Dag, with more than 10 items. When I walk a dog, I always scoop up the poop.
Oh, did you also find out that I was at Main Beach in East Hampton this summer, and I swam out too far and THE LIFEGUARD BLEW HIS WHISTLE AT ME!?!

I really do wish you and anybody else who purchases at OBBP all the best. In 15 or 20 years you can bring the wife and kids to come visit me in Italy. I hope to be living there by then. But I'm not sure. While you walk with certainty, I hang back a few paces with doubt.

Take care Gator. All the best to you and yours.

Leom: Miso cod is my favorite, too. Look forward to meeting you. Sent you an e-mail.

leom, I (and the others who are either in contract or interested in the building) am defensive? Think what you will, but just because I provide counterpoints to many of the things that were said by a handful of people here doesn't make me defensive. Interesting that you would see it that way though. I recall you got quite defensive when we had this discussion on a Forte thread (plus defensiveness is characterized by comments such as "you must be a genius" and "anyone with 4th grader math skills" which are your comments). The civil OBBP discussions get disrupted by the few posters who are resolute that OBBP will fail, the prices are too high, the CCs are too high, and no one would ever want to live there. Are these posters the 10 objective observers that you refer to? Are they the likes of marco_m (who uses muliple user names on SE to agree with himself), ab_2118, somewhereelse or Truth? If you think they are objective, I've got a bridge to sell you. It should be noted that I've never criticized any poster for posting a negative about OBBP (at least when they've done it in any fair minded way) or suggested that OBBP doesn't have any negatives.

And I didn't generalize that "just b/c sales at OBBP is sluggish, it must be so anywhere." You said other buildings in LIC, Downtown Brooklyn, and Williamsburg have done better than OBBP and without price cuts. I gave due credit to One Hanson, and then asked you which buildings you were referring to. You haven't responded.

Regarding the % sold, let's call a spade a spade. All these comments about the % sold after 2.5 years are all pointless. We all know that OBBP didn't make any real price cuts until the end of September 2009, and that's why the building remained at roughly 30% sold. What matters is what has happened since the price cuts, and there is good sales momentum with units in all prices ranges and all parts of the building are now moving. Additional momentum will be gained by the publicity generated by the opening of the Park in the Spring, the sale of additional high profile units, OBBP being featured on HGTV's "Selling New York," securing of Wells Fargo as preferred lender, etc. Regarding contract listings, leom, what difference does it make that OBBP has 3 units in contract" on SE? Do you really think that's all there are? I'm in contract and mine isn't listed and I personally know others who are in contract and their contracts aren't listed either. I don't know where SE sources that info but its not accurate for OBBP and other buildings. But you've convinced yourself that its gospel; so be it.

I'm not upset about anything, so don't you worry about me. And you may think my opinion is contrary to basic facts regarding pollution and the BQE, but let's look at that for a moment. I didn't associate Forte and BQE. I mentioned that it was downwind of the BQE. The prevailing winds come across the river, over OBBP and across the BQE in a generally west to east direction. So the pollution from the BQE is generally being carried by the wind eastward towards, that's right, Forte. You say that the windows of my unit are triple exposed. I think they are actually protected, at least in part, by these prevailing winds. If OBBP was on the other side of the BQE I would agree with you wholeheartedly, but its not. As part of my work, I've dealt a fair amount with pollution patterns, plumes, etc., and know a fair amount of how they work. Do you really think the air quality around Forte is appreciably better than at OBBP? No one is going to talk about the air quality in Downtown Brooklyn (including BH, Dumbo, CH etc.) in a favorable light.

And am I not a real BH resident? I've lived in BH for more than 7 years but I guess the posters on the other thread are real residents and know more than me. What I know is that the noise that bothers one person would hardly be noticed by another, and that different types of noise bother different people. I also know that unlike most any poster on the board I've have spent time in my unit on many occassions at different times of day and the noise from the BQE is minimal at best. The noise in my current apartment is actually more disturbing because it breaks the silence.

So other people's opinions are informative, but hardly dispositive especially when they are the opinions offered on a message board. I don't know anything about them, whether they are like me or not, whether they have an agenda or not. My philosophy on purchasing RE -- and well just about everything -- is do your research and get absolutely all the information you possibly can. My philosophy is also that you can't place too much credence in the opinions offered on a message board (and that all opinions offered on a message board are not created equal).

Objectivity is defined in part by being open to the fact that your position might be wrong. I might be wrong about OBBP and I've said this many times. I understand this, which stands in stark contrast to those who have posted unequivocably that OBBP is screwed.

I'll still post here at times regarding OBBP and other topics, but regarding OBBP I'll principally do it on the new google discussion group. Best to all.

kg2, muskateer, jtmdesign, wilfred32, spieler1 and others looking or living at OBBP come join us at the google discussion group: http://groups.google.com/group/obbp or send me an email at gatornyc@hotmail.com.

Hey, Gator: Leave me out of your accusations. You had your chance to meet with me. You have your own google page, now. So use it.

Then you will have their names, and do "research" on them. If they move into OBBP, you will know exactly who they are. Lucky them.

Truth, I didn't saying anything about you! All I said in my response to leom was that if he thinks you are objective (and I referenced several other posters) then he is mistaken. As for having had my chance to meet with you, as I said I am still perfectly open to it. You said you would be out of town for the next several weeks.

And sorry if you don't like it Truth, but I will continue to use SE. The google board is now up and running and I will use that too.

I don't care enough to like it, or not. Do what you want to do, Gator, it's a free country. You are the master of your own domain, on Google. This is an open zone, like it or not.

See ya later, Gator.

I find it ironic that everyone claims that they want SE to be a helpful tool in assessing the value of real estate yet they are so combative with each other. A healthy debate of the pros and cons does not need to be pugnacious. Keep the fights off the discussion board. The negative quips and incessant rebuttals about each other's character really do not aid those of us who are interested in making an informed decision about purchasing at OBBP.

pinkpanther, I wholeheartedly agree and I still hope that those discussions about OBBP and other properties can take place here. To the extent that my posts have contributed to the problem, my apologies to the board. I certainly want to continue a healthy debate of the pros and cons of OBBP and buying generally here and intend to do so.

That being said, as with many other buildings, those interested in OBBP now have another forum to discuss the building and exchange information. I encourage all those interested in OBBP to continue posting here on SE, but I also invite them to join the OBBP Discussion Group at http://groups.google.com/group/obbp or email me at gatornyc@hotmail.com to join. Best to all and I look forward to future discussions here on SE.

When I go out to Gurney's in Montauk, I always see two old gentlemen sitting outside the restaurant, arguing. One of them always points out his research and stats. The other says: "Feh, with your facockteh research!"
A waiter told me that they are actually friends, for decades; and they just like to argue with a nice view of the water.

31% sold after years. I think that officiall makes this one a bomb. I did call that one...

A "bomb"? Based on what? In a more "normal" market, it would take years to sell out so many units, so that's a bit of a reach. If you think the building's quality is poor, that's one thing, but this is not the abject failure some are painting it as here.

May I suggest the place to go, for the best view of the building:
I was on a boat, out in the harbor in the summer. As the sun set, it reflected off of the building's mullions (or whatever metal parts are on the exterior). The building glowed, as if lit from within. A beautiful sight.

RAL has great taste in all things material. He's third on my list of the best-dressed men that I have ever met. The top two are a tie: The late, great Ahmet Ertegun; and Ron Delsener.

17 hours without a spat...you guys slacking off?

No, I think he's just busy with his new google page, and his research. When he moves in, I'll go meet him at the waterfront; where we will argue while having a nice view of the water. Until I point and say:"Hey,look -- what's that?!"

SPLASH!!!

we seriously looked and considered this place, even went as far as inquiring window specialist to sound proof the windows. What broke the deal for us was the close proximity to major highway. Google it and you will find EPA reports, university research papers that ties to living close proximity to major highways to health issues to newborns and babies. If you are a young couple looking to have kids, I would caution and advise you to do some research of your own.

nycjk: Oh,get ready for a certain commenter to post an approx. 1,000- word rebuttal to your comment. Will you sign an affidavit that swears to the fact that: We have never met, spoken personally to each other; and I have not influenced your decision not to purchase there?
We are going to need it.

come on people.... so what if smoking a pack a day is healthier then living in OBBP, you'll be living with gator and those amazing views... was there ever a question "If views can kill, these will for sure....."

the bottom line is that the banks are still providing higher-risk loans, although not to the same degree. if today you can purchase, but some time in the future after the bank issue is semi-resolved, they actually decide to follow the 80% owner-occupied rule in many of these buildings you will be SCREWED if you have to sell.

aboutready: See my above comment to nycjk.

truth, you really have to get over this obsession with me. I'm happily married. It's just not going to happen.

jim, I'm just not going to engage in this lunacy anymore. Seems most on SE think that if you actually like any building, let alone would actually buy something now, you are a fool and an idiot. Why engage the likes of Truth? Just gives them what they want -- the attention they so desparately crave.

ab_11218, yeah because living in OBBP is so different from an air quality perspective than 65 Popular which you seem so fond of in the another thread? The people who live east of the BQE suffer the consequences of BQE more than than OBBP will. And anyone truly concerned about air quality should simply not live in NYC.

Truth needs a date so that she takes a break from commenting about a building that she will never live in.

Actually had a fun date with my guy, last night. He gave me lots of attention. Later, I dreamed about Gator.

I love ya Gator. I really do.
Thanks for playing.

This building is only 31% sold still ??? Financing is going to be a lot harder to get soon... if I were responsible for selling these units, I'd start getting it done.

Any idea if there are height restrictions for the two new residential developments planned for Pier 6? I know there are many open questions re: funding/timing for these two new buildings, but was wondering, if built, which floors of the south-facing 1bbp units would potentially have their views blocked?

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2010/03/10/for_55m_city_nabs_control_of_delayed_brooklyn_bridge_park.php#reader_comments

This is the most signif devt in last 2 yrs about brooklyn bridge park. Remember brownstoner and curbed blogs from 18 months ago? The park will never EVER EVER happen cause it hasn't in 20 yrs right? Sorry lemmings, but you are... lemmings. The bear posts have died off about the park.... Pathetic. You know who you are...

Spieler, this is huge news for the Park and OBBP. It brings an additional $55 million in funds to the park which means Pier 2 is now a go. What is good for the Park is obviously good for OBBP and this will continue to bring attention to OBBP.

P.S. Come join us on the google discussion group: http://groups.google.com/group/obbp.

price chops recently? the new ad on streeteasy says 30% off

As of yesterday, between signed contracts and closed units, the building is 43% sold. A huge improvement in the last 9 months (when I think it was hovering around 10%)

Your point of view seems to be that this building will eventually sell out. How big do you really think this market can be for this complex? 43% is probably close to 100% of what this market actually is.

with all the hype that the park has received in the past 2 months, this complex still cannot get to the 50% needed for some easy financing choices. what does that tell the buyers????? another price chop or more rentals, that's what.

When I went to look at apartments in this building last week I was unnerved by the two lots located just south of this building. Their sales agent stated, "Building can be constructed here in the future and we've taken that into consideration in the price." Is no one else worried about the possibility of two high rises going up on the south side? So the North side of the building was pretty much sold out, then there were the courtyard units where you have a close view of more units across the courtyard. I learned the West/Riverside is very pricey and mostly sold out ( I'm excluding the mega 5 bed units) which leaves you with the east side with it's beautiful views of Brooklyn( so sarcasm there, it's really a nice view) AND the soot of the BQE. Perhaps this explains their sluggish sales. I loved the apartments. But I love to leave my windows open! Sad.

lintinin, based on what? This building will sell out and the market for it is quite large considering the constant traffic of people in the sales office.

ab_11218, tells me that all the hype has resulted in about an additional 8-10% of the building sold in about 2 months. 50% is right around the corner. I don't think you'll see more price chops barring some macroeconomic event and definitely no more rentals (no units currently available for rent and of word is that the 25-30 rentals in the building won't be offered lease renewals; there were more rentals but they since bought their apartments).

UES, sales are anything but sluggish. I much preferred the sluggish the Brooklyn view over the courtyard view. I can keep my windows open during off traffic hours, but if you love to leave your windows open its not the best side of the building for you.

Thanks Gator. Well maybe sales are better than what is reported here because the salesperson at OBBP couldn't not offer me a 2 bedroom in my price range NOT on the BQE side. But there is a market for this building - look at Sutton Place,(FDR in the backyard) and the high-rises practically on top of the 59th Street bridge. Given the location - people will come. Good luck!

As much as I wanted to like this building, being in BH and a new luxury condo (a rarity in this area) with all the right touches in terms of amenities, the park, etc. I just feel like this place has three main red flags in my mind that prevent me from purchasing here:

1. BQE
2. shotty construction - walls seem paper thin, appliances high end but materials used for countertops, bathrooms, floors seem cheap and will fall apart.
3. TOO massive - normally big buildings don't bother me but in this case walking in the hallways is like one giant maze and for resale value there are just too many other similar units that you will be competing with come time to sell.

UES, I quickly learned that you can only believe about half of what is written here (and almost nothing from certain posters). The 2 bedrooms sold quickly after the price cuts; there are very few left on the BQE side also. Good luck with you search.

LICman, the BQE has been discussed ad nausem, so I won't go through it again. But I don't think anyone has conplained about the finishes before. The "walls seem paper thin"? Based on what? OBBP is the quietest apartment I have ever lived in. I can play may audio system pretty much as loud as I want without fear of tormenting my neighbors. And the finishes are as high end as the applicances. Terrazzo tile is neither cheap nor will it fall apart. The floors are made by Junkers and are real hardwoods not engineered or composites.

The building is large, and some of the lower floors can be maze like. Disagree that there will be too many similar competing units. First, its a demand issue. Enough demand and there is no problem. Second there are many different floorplans, views, etc. Its a large, but diverse building.

"with all the hype that the park has received in the past 2 months, this complex still cannot get to the 50% needed for some easy financing choices. what does that tell the buyers????? another price chop or more rentals, that's what."

As I said, a bomb. They tried Manhattan prices in a neighborhood that isn't even good for Brooklyn.

KABOOM.

somewhereelse, go climb back into your hole. There are bombs out there but OBBP isn't one of them. Sales have been brisk since the price cuts in Oct. so things are just fine at OBBP. And that was during the "slow" winter period for real estate. 12 more closings last week. And the spring/summer real estate season is upon us; judging by the traffic in the sales office on the weekends things are going just fine.

Neighborhood that isn't even good for Brooklyn? Why bother even debating the issue with you? You're a hater with no objectivity whatsoever.

Yeah, somewherelse: If you don't agree with Gator (who knows EVERYTHING) you are a hater, and not worth Gator's time. He has a web-page to work on, ya know.

Truth, you know that somewherelse is a drive-by hater. Knows nothing about OBBP, but called it a bomb a few months ago and has reappeared to pat himself on the back for being right. Problem is the facts indicate that he was wrong then and he is wrong now. But who cares about facts.

> Knows nothing about OBBP,

Hey, I get that you have to lash out because you made a mistake, but you're wrong.

I had a tour before probably anyone on this board, and have been in there 5x since, and by it another 15 or 20. I lived in walking distance when they built it.

But, hey, I get it... you're pissed about your purchase. And you need someone to lash out at.

> Problem is the facts indicate that he was wrong then and he is wrong now.

Can't sell it after years. We've been hearing about "brisk" for quite sometime, but the sales facts stand up on their own.

Sorry, thats a bomb.

"Neighborhood that isn't even good for Brooklyn? Why bother even debating the issue with you? You're a hater with no objectivity whatsoever."

Wow, you are delusional. If you don't think this as a neighborhood doesn't have signifant problems when comparing to prime brooklyn heights, dumbo, carroll gardens, fort green... then WOW.

If me disagreeing with you is the reason you are afraid of debating, time to check yourself. Clearly you are dissatisfied with your choices.

> First, its a demand issue. Enough demand and there is no problem.

LOL.

Isn't this true of every market everywhere? And when there is insufficient demand, thats a problem.

"BTW, just got update from the sales team last weekend: still only 31% sold. That's half a year after the 35% price chop in sept 2009... "

Btw, the building has price chops in the 35% range.... that alone makes me 100% correct.

I told you they would have problems sellings... and they did.

somewhere.... come back in 2-3 years when gator is getting his lung transplant due to BQE fragrance...
in 10 yrs he'll be selling the best thing that happened to Brooklyn for 1/2 of the purchase price.

oh ye gator: brisk does not mean reaching 41% after 3 yrs and 5 price cuts. don't worry, they'll pay NYT another cool mil to run another 10 stories about this amazing place with the park that burned kids' skin on the first warm day. something will be oozing by mid july and it will be closed forever.

"somewhere.... come back in 2-3 years when gator is getting his lung transplant due to BQE fragrance...
in 10 yrs he'll be selling the best thing that happened to Brooklyn for 1/2 of the purchase price."

Yeah, reminds me of the guy who told me 2 years ago that I was losing out on tripling my money at the Beacon in JC.

"oh ye gator: brisk does not mean reaching 41% after 3 yrs and 5 price cuts."

well, the guy is desperate, gotta give him something to hang on to.

Reminds me of the overall RE bulls who said "yes, I know I said RE would go up, but it went down 22%, not 70%, so I was actually right"

41% after THREE FING YEARS with HUGE price cuts is pretty much exactly what "BOMB" means.

anyone else think OBBP bears a striking resemblance to House of D over on Atlantic? But whatever.

ab_ and somewhere, you're both like Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck; you just like to hear yourselves talk and you're right because you say you are. No point in arguing with you; facts don't matter, other people's opinions don't matter...your opinions are the only things that matter. You're all about the melodrama as your reference to "burned kids' skin on the first warm day" demonstrates.

By your criteria virtually every new condo in the City is a bomb. OBBP was doing well until the economic meltdown and then nothing sold (anywhere!) and deals fell through. Then the RE market started to pick, but OBBP stubbornly did not drop their prices and few units moved. After the price cuts in late Sept/early Oct the building is on the right course and sales have been brisk. So ignore that OBBP was doing well pre-market crash, ignore that new condos didn't sell anywhere for a year and ignore that sales post-price cuts have been strong.

Am I calling OBBP an unmitigated success? Hell no. It's been a tough road for the building when the Park construction was delayed, when the RE market crashed (true for all new condos), and they made the poor decision of not adjusting pricing to the market sooner. Even in the boom years it was going to take years to sell out a building the size of OBBP. The RE collapse and other factors have guaranteed that it will take longer. Have I ever called it the best thing to ever happen to Brooklyn? Never, just the absolutely right building for me.

But that history doesn't concern me. What matters is the present and at present the bulding is 45% sold and will soon reach 50%, which will provide its own momentum, and the sales traffic continues to be excellent as we go into the spring/summer sales season. This is true even though the sponsor is discounting less and giving fewere concessions. Other than the economy, the building's biggest impediment was the question of whether after all these years was BBP actually going to be built. Well that question also has been resolved as the Park is being built, will continue being built and will be finished (ab_ "it will be closed forever"? Are you serious?)

The price cuts make you, right? Well when it comes to the sponsor sure, but again how is OBBP different from most any other new condos in the City (and it wasn't 35% across the board, some units are down as much as 35-40%, others substantially less)? When it comes to the current buyers how are the price cuts anything but good? I bought my unit for about 40% less than the original offering price. Bad for the sponsor, good for me. And ab_, 5 price cuts? Now you're just generalizing and making things up again. You both criticize a buidling for being overpriced and then call it a bomb when it cuts prices. Ideologically bankrupt concept.

And somewhere, you living within walking distance of OBBP means you know something about it? I have also lived in walking distance since it was being built and all that means is that we both lived close enough to be affected by ab's "BQE fragrance." The BQE issue has been discussed to death on this board. Many parts of prime Heights, Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens all have to contend with the same issue so what's your point? OBBP is an underpass from prime Heights so your "neighborhood" issue doesn't make any sense.

Finally, "pissed about my purchase" and "the guy is desparate"? Don't worry about me. I moved into the building and it has been fantastic. I "lash out" at you and ab_ because you guys are haters that only want to bring buidlings down. Your comments are irresponsible and could play into a buyer's decision making process. I'm here to balance out your abject negativity. And I hope to be brutally honest about the pros and cons (I've acknowledged several). All you do is criticize and condemn. I've wasted enough time on both of you. I'm out.

"No point in arguing with you; facts don't matter, other people's opinions don't matter...your opinions are the only things that matter."

Gator, you just described yourself.
We're talking price changes, sales numbers, closing numbers... and all you have is your opinions and insults, and how noone knows as much as you (even though you seem to know very little).

"It's been a tough road for the building when the Park construction was delayed, when the RE market crashed (true for all new condos), and they made the poor decision of not adjusting pricing to the market sooner."

Yes, again, thats called a BOMB.

"You both criticize a buidling for being overpriced and then call it a bomb when it cuts prices. Ideologically bankrupt concept."

Thats just moronic. They were forced to lower prices because they priced WAY too high, as we said. Having to cut tremendously didn't make it any less of a bomg, it proved it was a bomb.

> And somewhere, you living within walking distance of OBBP means you know something about it?

Now you're just being dishonest. I gave other reasons why I know the building.

But, if lies and insults are all you have.... I feel for you.

"Many parts of prime Heights, Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens all have to contend with the same issue so what's your point?"

Now THAT is a lie. No part of prime brooklyn heights even sees the bqe! If you're in cobble hill and you see the bqe, you're not prime either... not to mention there is an INCREDIBLE difference being above it and being at or below it.

Really now, now you're just playing dumb.

If you think the area under the bqe is the equivalent of prime BH or CH, you should be barred for ever buying, talking about, or living in real estate.

"I moved into the building and it has been fantastic. I "lash out" at you and ab_ because you guys are haters that only want to bring buidlings down"

Noone confident in their purchase would lash out like you have. Furthermore, flat out lying... sorry, she doth protest too much.

We know why you're lashing out.

"the bulding is 45% sold and will soon reach 50%, which will provide its own momentum,"

KABOOM!

> Your comments are irresponsible and could play into a buyer's decision making process

Again, you are talking about yourself.

Shilling a building and saying its the same as prime Brooklyn Heights.

Thats dishonest, and completely hypocritical.

You are scum.

Well, it looks like Gator has run off this discussion -- AGAIN.

He doesn't have time, he doesn't know why he bothers, etc. etc.

lintintin has a good point: The building is too big,has too many units. It didn't sell well,before -- and it's still not at 50%. If it would have taken years to sell out, no matter the market-- it would have been sold out by now.

OBBP is a product of RAL's overblown ego. He converted a building that was too big to sell out. He shtupped his female banker , and the bank signed off on the money.

And, it's not just conversions; when he builds he operates with the same m.o.
Check out The Capella. It's a hotel he built in Telluride. He shtupped the blond banker. Got $200 MILLION. To build a 100 room hotel in Mountain Village. Very fancy and over-priced. Condos for sale, upstairs. He got variances to build it bigger. More is never enough for RAL.

In Feb. 2009,after ten years, with only 27 rooms complete; he had a big "Opening party" there at the hotel. Cut a stupid big red ribbon, during an "Opening" ceremony.

The hotel is over-built, over-priced and under-occupied. Even in high season.
RAL requested that the chef at the hotel's restaurant put hot dogs on the menu. They cost $13 (served with 3 different kinds of mustard.)

He charges money to a group that works with children who have developmental learning problems, for use of a ski-run that leads to the hotel.

Mountain Village had to pay him an extra $100 THOUSAND for the skating rink; after the hotel opened.
The town of Mountain Village was already in dire financial straits.

There's more. Facts.

I don't wish harm or ill-health to Gator, or anyone else who bought at OBBP. Good luck to them all. Really.

> He doesn't have time, he doesn't know why he bothers, etc. etc.

Of course, not before making every bogus argument he can, and then going for insults.

And then he goes after OTHERS for presenting bad info? Amazing.

And something that CAN'T SELL after YEARS, he's still arguing it wasn't a bomb. Amazing.

Truth, looks like the building is selling from the closings page on here (http://streeteasy.com/nyc/building/one-brooklyn-bridge-park). Sure, it's taking its time, but I'm reading a lot more hyperbole on this post than anything useful.

bjw, this year they sold 10% of the building. that's after the price drop and having someone buy a whole bunch of units to combine. as you may have heard, most of the better units are now taken, FINALLY. now they are left with BQE facing apartments and the courtyard ones. the briskness is now over, we'll see you in 3 yrs.

Maybe they should resume giving away a free Audi with each apartment ...

truth, because its not a discussion. I presented facts while somewhereelse and ab_ just keep repeating the same self-fulfilling garbage.

According to somewhereelse and ab_ virtually every new development condo in the City is a bomb. They ignore that NO ONE bought new condos for a year yet still rail against OBBP as it should have been selling units when no one was buying condos in the city.

How did I lash out at you somewhereelse? Because I disagreed with you? Because I took offense to your railroading of the building? The readers of this board know your MO; no need to say more there. Your best response is that I'm lying and dishonest? Nuff said.

I've been talking about price changes, sales numbers, closing numbers; you've just kept repeating that OBBP is a bomb. Edge, Forte, Toren, Warehouse 11, etc. now those are bombs so far (apologies to leom if he's reading this - Forte is a bomb only because it was foreclosed and then sold out after huge discounts). There are others in Manhattan.

And again if your criteria is that price cuts means bomb than I guess your right. But the premise is just ridiculous and ignores the fact that pre-recession the building was selling well at the "way too high" prices. OBBP had to cut prices, just like virtually every condo and coop alike, because of the RE collapse and recession not because OBBP itself is a bomb. But you just ignore all of this.

Finally, somewhere, you don't have to see the BQE to experience it. It's not a difficult concept. Noise and pollution travel. You don't think that Columia Heights, Willow Street, Montague Terrace, parts of Joralemon are prime Heights? You don't think that they experience pollution from the BQE? Where do you think BQE pollution goes? You probably think it just forms a cloud over OBBP, don't you? The prevailing wind is from west to east blowing it over the Heights. Absolutely love the Heights but that's a fact.

I say why do I bother and why should I take the time because you refuse to actually engage in a discussion. Rather, you just drop in to blithely to call the building a BOMB and then you're off. Somebody actually challenges that assessment and you say that that person is lashing out and is dishonest (let alone flat out lying -- not me somewhere; not one dishonest statement or lie or anything that even resembles one) and calling him "scum." Why would I want to play that game (indeed this post shows one of my faults; I don't know when to just let something go). I'll admit other posters are far smarter than me as they just let your posts go and refuse to engage in such nonsense.

ab_11218, it's a question of price - those BQE-facers will move at the right price. I just find it very difficult to judge whether this building is/will be a success when I don't have the full numbers in front of me (and neither do you, for that matter, unless you've got your hands on the developer's spreadsheets).

> According to somewhereelse and ab_ virtually every new development condo in the City is a bomb.

Gator, gator, now you're just lying. I pointed out 1BBP and the Flatbush corridor stuff (Toren was a favorite) specifically up and above others. And 1BBP was definitely my white elephant...

> Edge, Forte, Toren, Warehouse 11, etc. now those are bombs so far

The edge's first building sold better than 1BBP... toren I believe sold almost as many in substantially less time. But really just different shades of bomb. Pointing out other bombs doesn't make one bomb any less a bomb.

"while somewhereelse and ab_ just keep repeating the same self-fulfilling garbage."

Sounds like you're talking about yourself again. Of course, this time you did make up a new lie.
;-)

"How did I lash out at you somewhereelse? Because I disagreed with you?"

No, disagreeing is fine. Personal insults are another.
If you can't tell the difference...

But you seem to be confusing that with what you actually did.

> And again if your criteria is that price cuts means bomb than I guess your right.

No, its the level of price cuts, and beyond that, you left out the bigger factor - NOT SELLING. After years that percent sold is horrible.

> But the premise is just ridiculous and ignores the fact that

Given you made up the premise (and its not what I said), that is called a STRAWMAN.
So, the rest of that paragraph is completely bunk.

> Finally, somewhere, you don't have to see the BQE to experience it. It's not a difficult concept.

Then why are you having such problem applying it correctly?

> You don't think that Columia Heights, Willow Street, Montague Terrace, parts of Joralemon are prime Heights?

Columbia Heights? You kidding? Not even close. Its cheaper BECAUSE of the bqe.

Willow? Sheesh, you're talking about the part of BH that is cheaper specifically because the bqe pops out.

No, not even close. Seriously.

And if you're claiming living above the bqe is the same as FACING IT, then clearly you've entered the land of skewing to defend your position. This is so rediculous it doesn't deserve a response. Is BH perfect, of course not.

But if you can't tell the difference in FACING the highway and being feet from windows, seriously.

Jeez, talk about ignoring the facts.

"I say why do I bother and why should I take the time because you refuse to actually engage in a discussion."

Hypocrite... you stared the insults... and haven't provided actual facts, just the nonsense which I documented above.

Seriously, you are guilty of everything you are accusing others of.

> Somebody actually challenges that assessment and you say that that person is lashing out

Again, challenging an assessment is one thing... and not what you did. Personal insults are something else.
If you can't tell the difference... well, its not like you've gotten ANYTHING right here....

> I'll admit other posters are far smarter than me as they just let your posts go
> and refuse to engage in such nonsense.

I have to admit, you're like a car accident. I see your nonsense and I can't help responding.

somewhere, I said to "climb back into your hole" and that "you're a hater with no objectivity." Those are personal insults? You're a bit thin skinned, no? Maybe I shouldn't have said it quite the way I did, but your posts speak for themselves and the board knows your MO, so it is pretty justified. "Lier," "dishonest," "hypocrite" are personal insults that you just keep flinging because its all you have. They don't bother me in the least; I mean why would the insults of an anonomous poster bother anyone. But I agree that they have no place on this board so why don't we both clean up our act.

As for your first point, I meant to say that based on your criteria virtually every new development condo in the City is a bomb. I said it several times in my posts you just happen to pick out the one time that I wasn't as clear.

The Edge's first building sold better than OBBP? Based on what? Where are the closings? There have been no closings so that can't be it. I haven't seen anything that puts the Edge more than 30% sold and that numbers complete supposition. Same for Toren, how many closings? Very few so the bandied about 50% sold number there is meaningless. And even if it was Toren didn't sell nearly as many in less time (120 is half of 240 units; at OBBP 45% is 200 units). These are the facts that you've been offering? That's the problem with our positions, you don't offer facts to support them. You can disagree with what I've said but I've offered facts to back it up.

"After years that percent sold is horrible." So what would be a good percentage sold for OBBP in view of the RE market collapse and recession that affected all buildings? You ignore the current RE and economic environment and just dismiss OBBP as not selling for years. Nothing sold for a year and OBBP admits that it, like many buildings, had to resell units where the original buyers walked away after the market collpase. But you have no response for this. You just keep saying over and over that it hasn't sold for years. Not true on any level. You keep cherry picking to avoid responding to the questions I asked and the facts I offered.

On the BQE, you are attempting to put words in my mouth. I've always said that the BQE is a challenge but many buildings in the NY face challenges. And the BQE's pollution is bourne by much of the surrounding neighborhoods. We won't agree on the degree, so I'll leave it there.

I can acknowlege the cons to OBBP, can you acknowlege any of the positives?

> Those are personal insults?

Apparently you need a dictionary now.

> You're a bit thin skinned, no?

No, actually. I don't care. I'm just using them to point out your incredible hypocrisy.

Everything you've accused others of, you're the most guilty party.

"but your posts speak for themselves and the board knows your MO, so it is pretty justified. "

Wait, did you just try to justify personal insults?

Seriously?

You just excused yourself for going after someone personally.

Wow, you are pathetic.

> "Lier," "dishonest," "hypocrite" are personal insults that you just keep flinging because its all
> you have.

First off, its not *all* that I am flinging, you have over and over again ignored 99% of the posts.

And they're not insults, they're facts. You lied about me. Being called out on that lie isn't an insult, its a correction to YOUR INSULT. Pointing out hypocrisy isn't an insult, particularly when its in response to YOUR INSULTS.

You can keep saying "thats all you have" but you are being dishonest again. You keep ignoring the other parts of the posts.

And you talk about MY mo.

puuuhleeeze.

"As for your first point, I meant to say that based on your criteria virtually every new development condo in the City is a bomb. I said it several times in my posts you just happen to pick out the one time that I wasn't as clear."

Now you're changing your story and you are STILL wrong. There are a large number others that have sold more and reduced prices less.

> but I've offered facts to back it up.

You can keep repeating yourself, but that doesn't make it any less untrue.

"After years that percent sold is horrible." So what would be a good percentage sold for OBBP in view of the RE market collapse and recession that affected all buildings? You ignore the current RE and economic environment and just dismiss OBBP as not selling for years. "

Jeez, that it has an excuse for bombing doesn't make it any less a bomb. I pointed out that it would bomb partially on economic factors. That you think that makes it something other than a bomb is hillarious.

OF COURSE the economy factors in to why it has failed. But it doesn't mean its any less of a failure... especially when I specifically noted market aspart of the risk!

> You ignore the current RE and economic environment

No, I don't.... you're asking us to!

"Nothing sold for a year and OBBP admits that it, like many buildings, had to resell units where the original buyers walked away after the market collpase. But you have no response for this. "

The response is the same... an excuse doesn't make it any less of a failure.

If it had been a good market, it wouldn't have been a failure.... and you'd be bragging that you were right!

But an excuse for bombing doesn't make it anything other than a bomb! Just as I said other bombs don't make it any less of a bomb.

Jeez.

"You keep cherry picking to avoid responding to the questions I asked and the facts I offered"

Oh my lord, ME cherry picking. Seriously, you are a hypocrite. You've ignored almost all of my posts, and pick out one or two lines you want to talk about to change topic. Still waiting for your brilliant response on calling the part of BH and CH next to the bqe as prime!

again, you are a hypocrite and you are dishonest, and I'm sure you will ignore most of my posts as usual.

"I've always said that the BQE is a challenge but many buildings in the NY face challenges"

Which doesn't mean you can ignore the challenges the situation in particular is facing!
And how many of those other buildings priced that high?

Seriously, your logic is circular.

bjw: It's taking its time?!
It has taken too much time to even get near 50%sold. And that's with "giving" low-end Audis away.
That's with the price-cuts (although RAL repeatedly stated that he would not drop prices.)
That's with the first time buyers tax credit.
And, that's not hyperbole.

Actually, here is an analogy I just thought of to your "logic", that it isn't a bomb because you have to factor in the economy.

I said the Yanks will win. You said the Red Sox will win.
Yankees win. You argue I wasn't right because the Red Sox didn't hit like they were supposed to.

Thats the argument you are essentially making.

"bjw: It's taking its time?!
It has taken too much time to even get near 50%sold. And that's with "giving" low-end Audis away.
That's with the price-cuts (although RAL repeatedly stated that he would not drop prices.)
That's with the first time buyers tax credit.
And, that's not hyperbole."

Truth, it is amazing how much rationalization is going on here.

or how about "yes, I said that manhattan prices would not go down, but the economy cratered, so you have to factor that in... so I'm not wrong". ;-)

somewhereelse: Gator at first,accused me of being a liar, too. But I know things about Ral, because I know him very well, for decades. I don't think that Gator is scum -- but I KNOW that RAL is.

You and I don't always agree, but I don't hate you; and I don't think that you hate me. We've never gotten nasty with each other (I did call you an elitist on another discussion string, but that doesn't mean that I don't like you.)

As for the people who have purchased units at OBBP, and those who may (in the near future, because there is not a limitless amount of time in which to sell-out the building):

If you are buying because it's the best place for your needs; are in it for the long term and plan to live there for 15 - 20 years, - good luck.
I don't know your secret to being sure that the "Disaster Ds" will not occur in that time-span of your life: Decreased income, divorce, disease, disability, and death.
The things that happen to people everywhere. Living at OBBP will not make you immune to life's tragic set-backs.

And if you need to sell before your long-range plan expires -- you will be stuck at OBBP.

However, I am happy that Gator lives there. Just wait until something happens in/concerning OBBP that he doesn't like. He will give RAL a good fight.

RAL is shitting himself, just thinking about that.

somewhere, so you ignored the part of my post in which I said "But I agree that [personal insults] have no place on this board so why don't we both clean up our act." You just keep hurling the personal attacks and insults.

Aslo, no response on Edge and Toren and many other things I've written, but I'm the one ignoring 99% of your posts?

But alas as the expression goes "A wise man never argues with a fool - he knows there's no sense in it." And, aptly, don't argue with fools because from a distance you can't tell who is who. On that note I choose not to continue this useless debate with you. Why would I attempt to have a discussion with someone who keeps calling me dishonest, a lier, pathetic, a hypocrite, instead of just responding to my opinions and statements. Even if I did personally insult you, yours towards me have so far outpaced them it's not even funny. Like I said no point in continuing a debate with you. It's just a pissing match that doesn't help anyone or provide any useful information at this point.

And by the way I've never shilled for OBBP and I never said it was the same as prime Brooklyn Heights. I've always been up front about being interested in the building, making an offer, and that I did recently purchase a unit in the building. I've always talked about the pros and cons of OBBP. All you do is denigrate every aspect of it. I know what motivates Truth, but I will ask what's your motive? Why the abject negativity?

Truth, I never accused somewhereelse of being a liar (though he certainly has called me one many times now). I don't believe that I called you a liar either; I did call you out for casting many aspertions about RAL and OBBP, and while we still don't see eye to eye on it, we've let it go.

You're entitled to your opinion Truth, but I don't think people who may need to move before 15-20 years will be stuck. I certainly won't go over all the reasons why I think the building will do very well over time, but suffice to say that I do believe that it will. I will agree that for the very reasons you cite that if one's time horizon on a purchase at OBBP was 5 years or less, I would tread very carefully, but that is true about almost any purchase at a new development condo these days.

And thanks for the compliment Truth. If ever I do have to have a fight with RAL, I promise it will be a good one!

"somewhere, so you ignored the part of my post in which I said "But I agree that [personal insults] have no place on this board so why don't we both clean up our act.""

Yeah, and then I noticed afterward the part where you said I deserved them. You are not only a hypocrite, you're not contradicting yourself.

"Aslo, no response on Edge and Toren and many other things I've written, but I'm the one ignoring 99% of your posts?"

Already addressed... twice.. and you keep missing that. Existence of other bombs doesn't make it any less of a bomb.

Hell, I copy and paste 90% of your entire posts. You've been skipping 90%.

" I never said it was the same as prime Brooklyn Heights. "

really?

"Many parts of prime Heights, Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens all have to contend with the same issue so what's your point? "

whoops!

"On that note I choose not to continue this useless debate with you"

And then, of course, you go on to argue for another 10 sentences!

Hypocrite.

"Why would I attempt to have a discussion with someone who keeps calling me dishonest, a lier, pathetic, a hypocrite, instead of just responding to my opinions and statements. "

Actually, I did both. And they're all true. But, if we followed your logic, noone would response to your posts filled with insults and ignoring the arguments presented.

"Even if I did personally insult you, yours towards me have so far outpaced them it's not even funny. "

Now you're acting like a child. "yes, I insulted you, but you insulted me more back".
and, fact is, I didn't. Those aren't insults, those are facts based on your statements.

"I know what motivates Truth, but I will ask what's your motive? Why the abject negativity?"

As I said, I see a shill, and I have trouble ignoring it.

And, you are COMPLETELY ignoring the refutation of the big point you made "have to factor in the economy".

Nothing on that, nada, zip. The fundamental argument you are now trying to make is bunk,I point that out, and not a word!

Again, all your talk about how you have this logic and facts, and your big argument is completely bust, and you won't even response to the comments!

talk about ignoring the facts.

"somewhereelse: Gator at first,accused me of being a liar, too."

Well, we know Gator's mo. Anyone giving any facts that don't support his argument gets an immediate results with insults and "you don't know anything about the building" and lies. Literally minutes after my first post.

Thats the usual response from someone who knows they don't have a case.

> RAL is shitting himself, just thinking about that.

I have no doubt.

KABOOM!

" I never said it was the same as prime Brooklyn Heights. "

really?

"Many parts of prime Heights, Cobble Hill and Carroll Gardens all have to contend with the same issue so what's your point? "

whoops!

Saying that prime BH contends with an issue that OBBP also faces is not the same as saying that OBBP is the same as prime BH in any way, shape or form.

And I have responded to your "refutation" of my point of factoring in the economy several times. First, that's your opinion not a fact. Second, all you did to "refute" it was to call the ecomomic climate an excuse. Not much of an argument, which is why I didn't respond to it. The RE world changed fundamentally after Sept '08, but you just dismiss it as an excuse. That's like saying a teacher not excusing a kid for failing to turn in his homework because his house burned down the night before. And I don't ever recall you saying OBBP "would bomb partially on economic factors." As I said before, if it was a bomb, then it was a bomb for the sponsor. It's most certainly not a bomb for me as it has given me a entry point that is literally incomparable to anything else in its class.

Also, I didn't miss anything about you addressing Toren and Edge. Your response was only that they are bombs too (and of course all bombs are created equal). No response from you regarding your plainly inaccurate statements regarding those buildings.

And I never called you or Truth a liar. You cannot say the same.

Lastly, your first post on this renewed thread was not a response to my post. You came back to pat yourself on the back for calling OBBP a bomb. So I ask again what's your motivation? Just like to say that your right? Just like to see things fail?

You are right about one thing, this has gotten childish. So I call on you again to stop with the childishness and insults.

Well gator you did compare them to rush and beck. that's pretty much calling them liars.

Gator: You have a web-page, so if you keep coming back on and off here in a snit; you might as well stick to your web-page.
I am motivated by all of the lies and unethical behavior that RAL has subjected people to, who were good friends to him for decades. Not only me, but many others. Not just his friends, but also contractors (some of whom were very good friends to him).

You did, in fact, post comments accusing me of being a liar.

Whatever. I leave RAL in your very capable hands. Please be careful that you don't get sick, have an accident; or anything else that may cause you to have to sell within 5 years. Only because I want you to stay alive to keep RAL very nervous.

I live in the building and moved in less than a month ago. Me my wife and son love our apartment and everything about the building -- it was the perfect choice for us. I don't foresee myself moving for a very long long time. I found a place that I am truly content with.

kg2: Please keep an eye on Gator. You may need him.

Good luck.

Why is Gator the kid getting beat up constantly on this thread? His point is that he bought the place that is the right place in the right location for him. And kudos for him for defending his home. I looked at this building very seriously but decided against it for many reasons (mostly-i wasn't ready to move from the city). But this building, for me, was the most tempting building I looked at in Brooklyn. I wish you many years of happiness and appreciation at 1BBP, Gator. It is a lovely building in a lovely neighborhood (which will only get better with the expansion on the park).

bring your kids to the park and watch them get cooked.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/breaking_brooklyn_bridge_park_big_1TkNqF2Z61MIc9QA7NnW8L

Fugly building, windows are too high, looks like the state pen.