Wall street versus Midtown

Is this for you to rent out or live in?

Since you said "invest" I'm assuming you're looking to rent it out.

In that case I'd say go for Midtown. The 30s appears to be the new up and coming area, and the location can't be beat, since you're within walking distance of pretty much everything (Midtown East/West, Gramercy, Chelsea, Meatpacking, Village, Flatiron, etc.). Wall Street has its own cache, but unless you work Downtown or have a need or desire for very close access to Brooklyn, the constant schlepping uptown on the train gets old really fast.

Thanks Matt, This place is for me to live in and resale is what I meant. Does this change your opinion?

Well, then I'd ask you what YOU want. Keep in mind that an apartment is more than just an investment, it's your HOME. Frankly, just about anywhere in Manhattan will hold its value. Consider first where you want to LIVE. (I always thought the old slogan on the Corcoran website nailed it: "Where do you want to live?" That really is the first and most important consideration when choosing a home, even before you figure out what you can afford.)

Do you work downtown? Do you love Wall Street? Do you love it enough to orient your life there, and make that your home base -- the place where you live ... eat ... sleep ... love ... dream?

On a snowy Sunday morning with your cup of coffee and Daily News comics, do you envision yourself looking out the window of a converted office building and gazing out over quiet empty commercial buildings surrounded by deserted streets? Or would you prefer looking out the window of a converted factory and gazing out over an eclectic mix of commercial and residential buildings surrounded by streets that are pretty much always teeming with energy, even if its low energy on a snowy Saturday morning?

On that Saturday morning, would it be preferable, if you needed to buy a jug of juice, to have to get dressed and catch the subway up to Chambers Street (or even 14th Street) to the nearest open store, or would it be preferable to just slip into a coat and boots over your jammies and dash down to the corner bodega that's been open 24/7 since Carter was in office?

I think you can detect my bias, but believe me when I tell you that I *love* the Wall Street area (always have), and came *this* close to buying a condo down there myself. I'm so glad my good friend (who happens to be a real estate agent) talked me out of it, knowing me better than I know myself when she told me I'm the type of person who needs to live in a "neighborhood" rather than a financial district.

I think you can't go wrong in either place. But think long and hard about WHERE you really want your life to be.

I agree, midtown is preferable if you are more "fun oriented", wall street is dead at night

But the OP said " midtown near the garment district" which means high 30's low 40's around 7th, 8th avenue? That is a dead zone, near nothing except possibly Koreatown. Awful place to live

Depends on your lifestyle but generally, Midtown inside the zones of 3rd ave to 8th Ave is more preferred than Wall Street. Wall Street is dead on weekends and late nights. Keep in mind there are some pocket of areas that aren't that great to live even in Midtown (K-Town, garment district) but in general, Midtown is preferred.

I am biased for sure.
But the garment district is a lot of fun.Yes it's very busy, noisy, there are homeless people, pornshops..It's now called the fashion center (i like garment district)
But here is where I see value.
Low 30 (even high 20s) to 45th, west of 8th has beautiful lofts that cost half of tribeca. The zoning laws changed a few years ago and lots of professionals moved in the new rental buildings (emerald green,...).
There are lots of restaurants. Transportation is unbeatable.You're anywhere in less than 15 min.
Highline park will extend soon to 34th street. The block around the curves of this part 3 will be developped.
Chelsea is moving that way. I did too .But I love hardcore urban lifestyle.
From a finacial point of view you need to project a bit in the future for buying value.

"Low 30 (even high 20s) to 45th, west of 8th has beautiful lofts that cost half of tribeca"

SHHHHH!!!!

Stop telling people about it!!!

I would buy downtown for investment purposes. I don't believe you can go wrong with either West Village, Soho or Tribecca. You should have no trouble renting for these areas have the lowest inventory.I believe at present it's below one percent

So far only negative reviews around garment district area :(

How are you getting that? I'm seeing mostly negative for Wall Street.

sounds like a lot of negativity about both

I agree with NYCMatt that there's more negativity about Wall Street. renterjoey is negative on midtown based on a comparison to neighborhoods that are a distance from Wall Street.

Garment district is industrial as the name connotes but so is Tribeca as midtowner mentions.

Wall Street removes you from the rest of the city. Part of the personal allure with the city is the convenience of having everything within walking distance, which Wall Street has yet to achieve. It now has supermarkets and parks closer to Battery Park but this holds true ten times over for midtown.

Midtown's a safer investment. More jobs are in midtown as well and most people would rather not deal with the rush. Close to theatre district, several parks, restaurants, transportation, and hubs (Penn, Grand Central).

Meh.

I actually like the high West 20s and West 30s. The gritty, urban feel of the streets ... the mishmash of independent retail outlets along with business-to-business establishments ... the absence of skinny-assed, over-entitled, self-absorbed bitches pushing double-wide strollers and self-righteously toting their own yoga mats as they blather mindlessly on their iPhones ... it's a landscape that appears untouched and unsullied by the economic sacrilege that has spread gentrification across most of the land like a toxic virus ...

I used to live in the mid/high 20s around 6th avenue. Things I liked:

- Very convenient for going out (meatpacking, 21st street, etc.)
- Very convenient commute with four major subway lines
- Good selection of restaurants - though for some reason (may just be me and where I lived), I never found a slate of "regular" restaurants - the type you are happy to go to day after day
- Sixth avenue was very active at night

I was single during the time I lived there.

I moved down to FiDi a few years ago. Ten years ago when I first came to NY I worked downtown but would not have even remotely considered living there. When I was looking for a place, my life situation had changed - I was married and starting a family - and I ultimately decided on FiDi based on a combination of the area itself becoming liveable as well as my life situation becoming more compatible with it. My life converged with where the FiDi as clearly headed.

This is what I like about living down here:

- With my family and children in mind, I appreciate the abundant pedestrian areas, parks, and more relaxed streets.
- At night, it is not completely desolate as it was ten years ago. In fact, I feel far safer walking around wall street with the 24/7 security.
- Stone Street is open relatively light and has a decent assortment of "regular" restaurants to call on.
- Even more subway options with 5-6 major lines converging in a 2-3 minute radius
- Grocery options not great but I have a car now which substantially mitigates that.
- The public schools are amongst the best in the city (like saving $20-25k per kid per year for the next ten years)
- A lot more space
- My view is the district will become even more young family centric going forward

So I think it really depends on your life situation and how that changes your priorities.

contrarian (and I sell both neighborhoods): I think WTC will open sooner than Hudson Yards, so I think you'll have a pop of walk-to-work demand downtown before you see it (above and beyond what you already have) in Midtown.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Things I see as negative about the part of FiDi where I live:

- Not much retail, and the retail that exists is mostly shut down on the weekends
- No movie theater nearby
- Too many tourists on the weekends
- Too hard to drive around during the weekdays
- Need better grocery stores

NYMatt.
I like your description of the skinny bitches,the entitled. I have come to hate those high end finishes and white glove doormen buildings.It feels like a hotel or a tokyo taxi.so fake.enough of that.
Anyway it's not an election but a match to specific tastes.
I did buy a loft there 2010. $625/sq foot.gut redo.love it.looking for another one.

"Or would you prefer looking out the window of a converted factory and gazing out over an eclectic mix of commercial and residential buildings surrounded by streets that are pretty much always teeming with energy, even if its low energy on a snowy Saturday morning? ... would it be preferable, to just slip into a coat and boots over your jammies and dash down to the corner bodega that's been open 24/7 since Carter was in office?"

Once again, NYCMatt's comment is full of errors and bias. The statement that "the 30s appears to be the new up and coming area" is absurd. Maybe, MAYBE, in 10 years it will *start* to be a neighborhood. And that is a big maybe.

First of all, the garment district is not mid-town. It is its own neighborhood. In my opinion, it is the armpit of Manhattan neighborhoods. Take a walk along Broadway in the 30s and tell me how it is "teeming with energy". It is full of old run-down buildings with shops that sell cheap beads and fake perfume.

I'm not saying downtown/FiDi is for everybody, but it is well established as a residential neighborhood. I have lived here 7 years and I can assure you I have *never* taken the train to Chambers Street just to get "jug of juice" at the "nearest open store". NYCMatt's comments are so blatantly false to make me think he literally has not been to FiDi in 10 years or he is just plain retarded. I have 3 grocery stores within 500 feet of my apartment, including one open 24 hours and one open until 1:00am.

FiDi has beautiful old buildings, many of which have been restored or are being restored. There is the promenade along the water. There are 10 subway lines. I can walk to TriBeCa in 5 minutes and SoHo in 15. The median income for FiDi is the highest in city - in excess of $125,000/year. I haven't even started to talk about the WTC re-development which brings all kinds of new benefits.

There are plenty of restaurants down here (yes, I know, it's not like the West Village or Chelsea, but that is what many of us like about it) - Capital Grill, DelMonicos, Sho, Ise, Haru, BLT Burger, the W Hotel, plus all the restaurants on Stone Street and Front Street. How many 2 Michelin Star restaurants does the Fashion District have?

As for retail, there is Hermes and Tiffany which, while they look nice, are not overly practical. They do, however, indicate that FiDi is viewed as being able to support high end retail. Once the WTC site is closer to completion, you will see a good amount of nice retail. As for today, there are plenty of dry cleaners, drug stores, bodegas and other retail places that you need for everyday life.

I obviously like FiDi. I'm not saying it is for everybody or that there aren't things about other neighborhoods that I like and things about FiDi I don't like. However, FiDi has been doing very well as a residential neighborhood for 5 or more years and will only keeping. getting better.

"First of all, the garment district is not mid-town."

Wrong. "Midtown Manhattan" is defined as the entire width of the island between 14th and 59th Streets.

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"FiDi has beautiful old buildings, many of which have been restored or are being restored."

Buildings which were designed as offices and never intended for residential use. Which explains the awkward layouts and proliferation of windowless rooms called "home offices" and "sleeping areas".

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"I can walk to TriBeCa in 5 minutes and SoHo in 15."

Only if you start the clock 10 minutes after you actually LEAVE your apartment and have crossed West Street.

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"The median income for FiDi is the highest in city - in excess of $125,000/year."

Is that supposed to be a plus?

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"There are plenty of restaurants down here"

Applebee's and McDonald's don't count. Try again.

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"As for retail, there is Hermes and Tiffany which, while they look nice, are not overly practical. They do, however, indicate that FiDi is viewed as being able to support high end retail."

Too bad it can't support places that sell jugs of juice.

NYCMatt - Just curious - do you have to practice sounding retarded and wrong all the time or does it just come naturally.

I'm not going to argue about all your asinine responses. However, there is one I just can't let go. "Only if you start the clock 10 minutes after you actually LEAVE your apartment and have crossed West Street." will you get to TriBeCa or SoHo in 5-15 minutes. Unless somebody is walking the exact opposite of SoHo or TriBeCa, they would NEVER EVER cross West Street to get to SoHo or TriBeCa from the financial district. This comment alone shows nothing you can say can ever be believed as you are so completely wrong.

One other one I just can't let go - ""Midtown Manhattan" is defined as the entire width of the island between 14th and 59th Streets." So if I buy an apartment at the corner of Avenue C and 14th Street and tell all my friends I bought an apartment in mid-town, they won't look at my like I am an idiot? Yea, right. sure.

and of course, 22nd & 10th is midtown.

"Garment district is industrial as the name connotes but so is Tribeca as midtowner mentions"

???????

Bottom line Tribeca, Soho, or West Village for investment since most desirable and the lowest inventory in Manhattan. Interesting how everyone is talking about walking distance to Tribeca and Soho. To me that means desirable. FiDi has hi inventory and hi tourist attractions (lots of those double decker hop on hop off red tourist buses)so why would a place of hi inventory like FiDi be a good investment?

why are you ganging up on Matt; he is generally correct, midtown is much more exciti9ng than FiDi

fair enough. but garment district is a hell hole. i did't even realize you could live there.

like, legally

" Unless somebody is walking the exact opposite of SoHo or TriBeCa, they would NEVER EVER cross West Street to get to SoHo or TriBeCa from the financial district. This comment alone shows nothing you can say can ever be believed as you are so completely wrong."

Forgive me, Downtown. I got mixed-up from the other thread. I thought you were talking about getting to SoHo from Battery Park City, not FiDi.

matt, you did make erroneous statements regarding the lifestyle of downtown fidi big time!!, but i get your exaggerated humor. You also are not considering, downtown fidi is very small compared to midtown and that S.O.F.A 30's up and coming area you are talking about. That is a lot of territory from 12th ave to 5th, 30th to 50th st. Although chelsea is being stretched into 12th ave and 33rd st. Most of that area has a long way to go before its a neighborhood, downtown fidi has the architectural charm, the history, and PRE-WAR, if you really want a solid apartment buy pre-war. I also think it can be a fun area to hang out in if your into the bar scene. For future value i agree with you that you cant go wrong in manhattan, but its still depends on the block and the buildings, and like you said can you call it home? does it fit your lifestyle?

Again, don't get me wrong, I like FiDi. But let's be a little more accurate about "prewar charm". There's nothing charming about living in a prewar OFFICE building. The layouts -- even post-renovation -- are awkward. You end up with crazy long and narrow apartments (or even worse, pie-shaped) that get natural light only on one end ... often with ZERO natural cross-ventilation because all of your windows are on one wall. And natural light is limited to that one end of the apartment with the windows.

lmao...it did not sound like you liked fidi at all, and thats ok, its not for everyone, no neighborhood is. Any time you have a conversion you can have unique layouts, but thats all taste and part of the charm for many people. Downtown is notorious for having the smallest blocks and the largest buildings. So you can be in a building on the 50th floor and look and onto another skyscraper and feel like you can touch it. Its can actually be surreal, I personally love the views. The most beautiful buildings are downtown, they just dont build them like that anymore. The area has changes dramatically in the last 5-10 years, now its really a robust area, no more dead streets on saturday night.

I can relate to OP's concerns... I have a very good friend that lives in FiDi, and here are my thoughts.

I don't find FiDi to be dead at night at all. Actually, I find it pretty populated--with screaming, drunken young kids at night/over weekends (the New School has their dorms off Maiden Ln., and there are GIANT bldgs. known for their young, unruly residents, such as 99 John, 2 Gold, etc.). Also, despite what some people say, finding grocery stores would be the least of the problems there, in my opinion (Gristedes, Zeytuna, Jubilee--open 24 hrs., etc.). Also, it makes little sense to be complaining about tourists in FiDi because, after all, the garment district/Bryant Park/west of Grand Central would be super touristy, as well.

The biggest problem I have w/ FiDi is that it is quite isolated from much of the rest of Manhattan--yet you can pretty much never find a cab when you need it (especially outside of the regular business hours). If you want to be absolutely certain that you'll have a ride, you'd have to call the car service ahead of time and pay a lot more. For each cab that wanders into the area at night/over weekends, there appear to be 100 people dying to catch one.

I'd personally pick Midtown--east or west. If you don't go out much anyway and you care about getting a comfortable apartment, though, you'd get a lot more apartment for your money in FiDi. Seriously.

"The biggest problem I have w/ FiDi is that it is quite isolated from much of the rest of Manhattan--yet you can pretty much never find a cab when you need it (especially outside of the regular business hours). If you want to be absolutely certain that you'll have a ride, you'd have to call the car service ahead of time and pay a lot more. For each cab that wanders into the area at night/over weekends, there appear to be 100 people dying to catch one."

If you're willing to take a subway (which most people in New York are), this is a complete non-issue since the FiDi has better subway access than any other neighborhood in the city.

Just as a sidenote on layouts: it obviously varies a lot by building. There are some (e.g., 20 Pine) where NYCMatt's comments about dark, narrow apartments are absolutely spot on. There are others, generally in smaller buildings (e.g., 71 Nassau or 59 John), where the layouts are totally reasonable. Personally, I find almost any of the weird FiDi preferable to a lot of pre-war layouts that require accessing a second bathroom through the kitchen/maid's room or whatnot.

"If you're willing to take a subway (which most people in New York are), this is a complete non-issue since the FiDi has better subway access than any other neighborhood in the city."

I'd say Brooklyn Heights edges out FiDi in this respect, but only barely.

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"Just as a sidenote on layouts: it obviously varies a lot by building. There are some (e.g., 20 Pine) where NYCMatt's comments about dark, narrow apartments are absolutely spot on. There are others, generally in smaller buildings (e.g., 71 Nassau or 59 John), where the layouts are totally reasonable. Personally, I find almost any of the weird FiDi preferable to a lot of pre-war layouts that require accessing a second bathroom through the kitchen/maid's room or whatnot."

Agreed.

Although those are most likely sub-divisions of larger prewar layouts.

FYI -- 10th Ave in the 30s is one of the BEST places in Manhattan to catch a cab. Between the gas stations and pisser at the Micky D's, it's a constant parade of illuminated center lights.

FWIW, I have not had trouble getting a cab in FiDi. I live on John Street so I just walk to Water and John and if I haven't got one by the time I get to Water, there is always one within a minute or two.

"The biggest problem I have w/ FiDi is that it is quite isolated from much of the rest of Manhattan--yet you can pretty much never find a cab when you need it (especially outside of the regular business hours)."

vs. "FWIW, I have not had trouble getting a cab in FiDi."

So, which is it?

I live there and never have a problem, regardless of time, so I think that pretty much settles it. Of course, if you are trying to find a cab at 5:00 on Friday afternoon, it will be difficult, but that is the case anywhere in Manhattan.

Over the past year, I looked at Midtown vs. FiDi, and I just bought in Midtown. FiDi is so far, far away from where the action is! Gosh, far from work, far from play... what can I say?

I think it really depends where downtown. I've had mixed success depending on how trafficked the street. Some of the long narrow ones, you rarely see a cab, so if you live there, probably need to walk a few blocks.

Mima - sounds an aweful lot like a fake account being posted by a Related intern.

"I'd say Brooklyn Heights edges out FiDi in this respect, but only barely."

I think its more than barely if you consider that a lof of the fidi trains just end there. the 1, the 6, the jz. Certainly to have them, but when they only go in one direction, not quite as valuable to me.

Dowtown brooklyn is loaded... but I'd actually say Atlantic Ave. beats 'em both...

And Times Square / Union Square give a whole lot of options, too. And you can be in fidi and have a lot of the trains be not that close... we're talking about a sizeable land mass.

"I'd say Brooklyn Heights edges out FiDi in this respect, but only barely."

I disagree, but I can see the basis of the argument. You get the F, but give up the J, the 1, the 6 and the E. Now, the 1, the 6 and the E are somewhat duplicative of other lines, but especially on weekends when there's variations on what's running being able to ignore the fact that, e.g., the A/C isn't running because the E is is a huge plus. Somewhere else's argument that several lines end in the FiDi is an argument in favor of the FiDi, not against it; none of those lines extend to Brooklyn Heights, but they're all useful from the FiDi to get elsewhere in Manhattan, so they're purely a win for the FiDi relative to BH.

right, but the 1, 6, and e only go one way... to me not as useful...

yes, advantage over BH that they don't go there... but you are double counting because you already counted lines!

in BH, they're also more concentrated. You're talking borough hall and maybe 2 blocks in a couple directions. Atlantic Ave, mostly within a block.

fidi, not as concentrated... and if you're on either coast, not great at all...

If you're near the water in BH, you're not near the train either. Same goes for WBurg and any other neighborhood near the water. So what's your point?

When the Fulton Street Transit Hub is completed, it'll change things for FiDi.

Being that pricing is similar at both places, my preference is to be in Manhattan. You could take a walk to SoHo or Union Sq. In BH, where would I walk to? Red Hook? :) Maybe Atlantic Yards- it's a real mall, unlike Manhattan Mall.