Wood flooring questions

If you can afford a 3,000+ sf property in Manhattan, I suspect it redoing the floors is not going to break your bank. That being said, my recommendation to you is to enlist the services of a professional decorator, who will likely (wisely) advise against using lots of cherry and marble, which are terribly outdated finishes. That is, unless your name is Trump.

No, hejiranyc, our name isn't Trump and money is an issue for us. It's an estate so these floors are wrecks.

fatrabbit,

When I find a client that has no budget that is the day I retire. Are you buying engineered flooring? or real cherry flooring/
The engineered wood can be glued directly to the floor and the price would be anywhere from $7,000-$10,000.

Real cherry wood would cost more as you would need to put in a subfloor and then coats of poly that will run roughly $13,000-$16,000

Marble:

your building might require you to install soundproofing under the tile. You can expect to pay $10,000-15,0000 for the marble, if you need soundproofing add $3-4,000

Also keep in mind you need to install new moldings as well which will increase the price

assuming that you're willing to cut down the doors, can engineered flooring be directly installed on top of existing badly damaged wood flooring?

Don't go with the engineered wood floor products -most of them can't be refinished. I did my last place (about 1000sf) with a high quality engineered floor and it still cost over $10k once you factor in labor, baseboard, etc. Put down the plywood subfloor and use quality wood that can be sanded and restained and you'll probably be happier in the long run.

Primer05, thanks very much. Please forgive our ignorance but are the prices you quoted for materials only or labor as well? Also what sort of price can we expect for moldings?

Primer, most engineered flooring these days does not require gluing to the floor- they float on top of some kind of foam or cork underlayment. Only the tongue-groove joints get glued. Some types of "click" flooring don't require any glue or nails at all. If you are going the prefinished route, I really do not see the need to use solid wood vs. engineered. In addition to being much less expensive, engineered floors are more stable dimensionally and they can be as thin as 1/4", which can be handy if you plan to install flooring on top of the existing finished floor. The only downside is that, if your subfloor is even, the engineered flooring will not conform, which results in a "squishy" spot in the floor, which can eventually result in breakage over a period of time.

Fatrabbit,

That does not include the price for engineered flooring but it does include the wood that gets sanded and poly

Hejiranyc,
You are talking about 2 different animals. The wood you are talking about is like per go which seems very fake. It is like a floating floor which does not feel solid when you walk on it.

Primer, it's all in your head. If you walk on a decent quality, properly installed engineered floor, you will not be able to tell the difference from a solid wood floor. Pergo is LAMINATE, which is not the same as engineered.

Hejirannyc,

Can you tell me what company makes good floors that you do not need to nail or glue down

Primer05, but I'm not still not clear. Do the amounts you quoted include installation? Also, how much should one allot for the molding and installation of that? Thanks.

How about bamboo

fatrabbit, primer is expensive, you can do better, sorry primer.

Primer's never done a job for me personally, but my sense from having been on these boards awhile is that he knows what he is doing. You can find cheaper contractors but my experience with renovations (my own as well as those of my clients) is that you get what you pay for.

Also, I'm not sure I'd go for bamboo -- I know it's better than it used to be, but it's still easy to dent.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Gcondo,

front porch is 100% correct. Even though Bamboo is said to be a very strong it dents so very easily. One person wearing hi heals will put so indentations in the wood you would not believe

Expensive? I guess its all relative, is a Mercedes expensive? Is Philipe Chow expensive? I would say they are but I also think they are worth it.

Can a person find someone less expensive then me? Of course. I met with a nice couple just yesterday who found me off of Street Easy and I told them exactly that. It is their first home and what their scope of work is could be done by someone less expensive but if someone needs to do a gut renovation of their apartment for what I do I am very reasonable.

Unfortunately the bullet proof reputation bamboo rightly has is for it's natural state, not when it's turned into resin soup.

Despite what various indices of hardness say about pre-finished planks, exotic woods, etc. (and omitting old-growth stuff from the discussion), by far the best wood floor I have found in terms of wear-and-shown is rift/quartersawn white or red oak, stained.

Love my ebony stained red oak floor.
Made a point to put those felt stick-ons on every piece of furniture.

nyc10023, right. My quarter-sawn white oak is 75 and 100 years old, and still looks great. Might even have a couple more sandings in it.

In a corner of the LR, though, where little herringbone pieces meet the border at a 45° angle, it looks as if a spike heel punched a hole, I think because there's a groove without a tongue.

>>who will likely (wisely) advise against using lots of cherry and marble, which are terribly outdated finishes.<<

Yes, PLEASE reconsider the cherry. It really does scream "new development" and generally comes across as cheesy. Marble tile floors can also veer to tacky if one isn't careful. Plus, they are slippery and will stain, scratch and etch like the dickens.

You mention this is an estate situation so I'm assuming prewar. Why not do something more in keeping with that 'old-time' charm, and consider something traditional like white or red oak floors (preferably herringbone or parquet but plank's fine too)? Classic choices will stand the test of time and also be better for resale if that's an issue down the road.

Thanks, bramstar. Okay, we will avoid cherry. Red oak sounds fine and we like herringbone very much but would it be extremely expensive? We need to have some understanding of the cost including molding and labor. I'm sorry if we sound very naive but we have never done anything like this before but we have heard lots of horror stories. All advice is welcome.

Fatrabbit: if you're doing a prewar gut reno, I know a lot of things need attending to, but DON'T, DON'T skimp on the floors. Think about it this way:

1) Ikea cabs for kitchen
2) Similar for baths, or don't even bother doing anything if they are functioning.
3) But the floors are not easily replaceable down the road when and if you can afford more

Costs will vary a lot (mostly labor).

Another thing to consider w.r.t prefinished floors is that they look terrible with even a tiny bit of warping. I've used a variety of floors in renovating different NYC places, and inevitably, despite best efforts at "weathering" the wood, there is annual expansion and contraction (at least during the first 5 years, seems to be less so this year). The gaps are far, far, far more unpleasant to look at with prefinished floors (especially with bevelled edges - ick).

Herringbone is all down to labor - the strips don't cost more.

parquet will be more costly than straight planks.

While parquet or herringbone is more 'traditional' I see no problem with using 2 1/4" to 2.5" plank instead, which is also traditional, albeit normally used in bedrooms and hallways. A plank floor would look especially nice with a simple border--perhaps a red oak border with white oak planks. You'll want to get an estimate from some good flooring vendors.

Thanks again, bramstar, Can you recommend any good flooring vendors/installers? We were thinking of doing the baths at a later time but we're afraid we might then ruin the floors. What do you think? Any suggestions about doing baths? We'll avoid cherry floors because of the feedback from this site. Any finishes to avoid when doing bathrooms? We like marble but don't know if it will be too expensive. Again, I apologize for sounding so naive and inexperienced but we are.

Fatrabbit,

I can give you a great floor guy. You can see his work on my site www.primerenovationsnyc.com
As far as the bathrooms marble can cost $7-$25. I would look at porcelain tiles. Low maintenance and very nice. Most of the bathrooms I have on my site are porcelain. I would not be scared that doing the bathrooms later should not do any damage to your floors. Whoever you hire should put down Masonite on the floor to protect it

Rabbit--I don't have working experience (yet) with a floor vendor as we have not replaced our original floors (though may need to at some future time). We've consulted with a few but I'd hesitate to recommend someone who has not actually done work for us.

If possible I would definitely try to do the bathrooms at the same time to avoid any unnecessary hassle.

With regards to bathroom finishes, I second Primer on porcelain. It's much more durable than marble--won't stain, scratch or crack as easily. For a vintage look I like white hexagon tiles with a light-to-medium gray grout--the 1 3/4 size is nice (preferable I think to the smaller versions). I'd recommend using a matte finish rather than glossy for slip resistance. Nemo has lots of good choices in stock in their back room (the contractor department) so you don't have to wait three + weeks for delivery as with Waterworks, Urban Archaeology, et al.

To clarify--in the above post I'm talking only about bathroom flooring. Are you also planning to redo other finishes like tub surround, vanity counters etc? If you like the look of marble but don't want to deal with the maintenance there are some nice granites and man-made stones that have a similar look to marble.

One granite/quartzite I really love is Super White, which has nice striations and a gray/white color. There is also a nice man-made from Quartzmaster that we wound up using for our kitchen counters which has an ivory/white base with gray striations. Of all the man-mades I think it has the nicest, most natural look by far. Would work beautifully in a bathroom, IMO. Not sure what they call it as it was a new item when we purchased it a few months ago. We got it at the Quartzmaster in Bayonne.

Rabbit

For a concrete subfloor I recommend floating a click engineered floor. This is going to save you money on the install, allow for easy repairability and offers the same great look and feel (if installed properly and product quality is good) as a solid hardwood. I know your price sensitive so would recommend something simular to our ecoKlik. If you go to www.kemberfloors.com you can research the product specifications. Our pricing is as follows for your reference:

ekoKlik engineered flooring $2.99-$3.49 / ft2
install floating - $2.25/ft2
install glue (PUR water free adhesive) $3/ft2
transitions $10/ft

One point that you need consider is subfloor being level within 1/4" in 10ft. This will greatly effect the overall feel of a floating floor.

All the best,

Peter

Truth,

"Unfortunately the bullet proof reputation bamboo rightly has is for it's natural state, not when it's turned into resin soup"

Doesnt the stranded, resin bamboo flooring have much higher durability? I agree the 'natural' bamboo, where pieces are pressed together, looks better though.

I have carrera marble hex - it was around 4/sqft from a no-name vendor and has held up very well. Haven't maintained much, and heavy traffic. Carrera is over-used, but there is significant variation in color and veining. I like a fairly white background with little veining. Used calacutta for bathroom countertops, and that's held up very well. If I had to do it over, I would look into honed thassos for the walls instead of subway white ceramics.

gcondo, out of my expertise.
I just know that natural bamboo is quite amazing, nature's version of steel, and really more grass than it is wood.
Whatever alterations are done to it have to weaken it substancially.

Ive seen countless bamboo scaffolds in Asia maintaining the same weights and abuses that our steel scaffolds endure.

Don't do the click floor if you care at all about resale value (sorry, Kember). Engineered click floors are fine in a large closet, laundry room or perhaps a small home office. But not for spaces like living and dining rooms, especially in a gracious older apartment. They have a tendency to 'down-market' a space (think new development condo style). Really would advise against that for your prewar.

Floating floors do not feel solid under you. I have had several clients who purchased renovated apartments and they ended up ripping up the new floating floor they had and installed new glue down.

Bramstar, thanks again. You asked about the bathrooms. They're really ancient so we feel we need to do them over completely if we can afford it. Any suggestions? We realize that price will vary according to what you put in there but we'd like to know what others suggest when final cost is a factor. Thanks.

Fat rabbit,

In my experience a nice bathroom gut renovation will cost 25k and up. You could do it cheaper but that is the budget I would be looking at.

truth, bamboo is harder when it is stranded and processed with resin - some of the hardest wood flooring available actually. But the natural stuff is also pretty durable, but not close to the stranded. oh and it is pretty inexpensive too, 3.99 sqft as far as I can tell... Anyway....

fatrabbit - have a few contractors come in and look at it, for God's sake. Do not rely on posts here alone. Sounds like you dont need a mercedes.

Gcondo,

This might shock you but I agree. The smartest thing to do when renovating is to meet with at least 3 contractors. Several things come into play

1. You might get good ideas from all three
2. You get a better feel for what your budget should be
3. You want to make sure you are comfortable with the contractor you hire

It is also a good idea to see some of the work that the contractors have done as well as get referrals.

Doesnt shock me Primer, you make sense most of the time. I am just tired of overpriced constuction work. I mean, why should it cost me 5K to get my apartment painted by some shlub?

gcodo,

It shouldn't cost you $5,000.00 to get your apartment by some shlub. That doesn't mean it shouldn't cost you $5,000 for a professional to paint your apartment.

yes yes I understand your marketing angle

Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions.

Cherry hardwood is domestic species in US, alternatively you can consider some hardwood from China like asian walnut directly from lumber mill there.
I used to purchase aisan walnut hardwood flooring for my villa, very impressive & durable hardwood with cost below 3USD/s.q.f directly from factory. Check it from http://www.acacia-depot.com/dark-walnut.htm