Advice on who to work with and size of budget

Sorry, I have reposted this in the correct forum - Renovation.

Gut_Reno

There are some general contractors that can help you with lighting design and there are others who do not. You should meet with several contractors to bid on your project and at the site visit you will be able to go over that with them. They should have an architect that can handle the drawings. In situations like these I usually bring one along to make life easier to save time for everyone.

I think your budget is very tight. Is it possible? maybe but I would try to boost it up to at least $90,000.00

Are you taking out both bathtubs? That would diminish resale value. A lot of women like to soak once in awhile and families with young children need them as well.

why not 100k, how about 125 if you want to bring in a plumber?

sorry, but this work should not cost that much, I dont care if Michelangelo is coming in to skim coat and paint the ceilings too.

Sorry, but I think the price is unrealistic by a bit. You'll have to be patching and repainting the ceilings as result of the electrical work, the base board moldings will have to come off and be replaced in order to replace the floors, and if you are doing all this, you will probably want to hide all that phone/cable/computer wiring in the walls. The bathrooms are essentially gut jobs since to replace the tiles and tubs you have to essentially rip out the existing walls; at that point this means new faucets and I doubt you'll want to keep existing fixtures. To make all this go smoothly and to avoid cost overruns and time delays, I would spend the money to have an architect do meticulous drawings and help you to think out exactly what else you are missing and precisely how it will all come together. You will also need to budget about $5-6K for an expeditor to get city approvals for the plans. Unless you are going the ultra-budget route for a very basic level of finish, I think you are realistically looking at the $90K-$100K that Primer is talking about. And this is only if you resist adding any other items to the reno. If you start getting into replacing doors/hinges/knobs, crown moulding, adding electrical outlets and power supply, fixing any broken window seals, plumbing changes necessitated by the building, etc, then price can creep upward.

One reason prices can be deceptive are fixed costs people forget about. For instance:
Architectural drawings: $5000
Expeditor: $5500
Review of plans by building engineer: $1000
Building fee to apply for reno: $500
Total: $12,000
And this is just off top of my head. That's $12K and no one has even swung a hammer yet.

I say all this not to depress you, but to set realistic expectations. Too many people start a reno being told their budget is unrealistic, and just say "Well, it'll have to be done for this much because I have no more to spend." Then 1/2 way into the reno the money runs out, they scramble, they stress, they hate the project and regret having undertaken it, and the entire process is miserable. With a realistic budget and set of expectations, a reno can be an enormously satisfying endeavor that is 85% stress free (you can't ever entirely eliminate stress in this process!).

great post KW!

KW, I am not sure why you believe a city building permit is needed for this job. No new rooms are being created. No additional living space is being added. It sounds like just a couple of non-bearing walls are being removed. The only thing that might need an inspection is the electrical work, but I don't think that's a building permit issue. For what it's worth, I once knocked down a wall in a coop (that was not there originally) and all it needed was coop approval.

In my opinion, I would think long and hard about replacing the tub. It's one thing if it was literally falling apart. But if it's structurally sound, consider glazing it, updating the hardware and replacing the tile. Replacing the tub itself is a pain/expense that may not be worthwhile in the end.

I did a job where 3 closets were combined into 1, and a permit was required. No walls were load bearing. The building may look the other way, but there is no incentive for them to do that as it could come back to bite them in the butt. I was told that if a wall is going up or down, you have to file with the city. This has always been that standard, but people used to look the other way more often. Fake walls that don't go all the way up to the ceiling may be the only exception.

You should be able to do those renovation for 70k EASY.
Just get half dozens of GC to come and bid. Flooring/lightings/bathrooms are going to be the major $.
50k-60k should be plenty to cover those three major work. Light switch/outlet covers are very cheap to replace (few hundred dollars for the entire place). Painting should not cost more than 1k + cost of paint. Crown moulding depends on the finish you want.

I'm sorry ba294, but yours is the type of advice that sets a person up for disappointment in the reno process. No way is a 1500 sq/ft 3 bedroom apartment getting a quality paint job by an insured painter for $1000+materials. You can disagree, but in over 20 years of familiarity with this type of work, I've never seen a number like that from a competent person.

Light switches...Let's talk about that. Just change the covers? Really? The new covers are unlikely to match the old switches if the old ones have yellowed over time or gotten as worn as the covers. It will look like crap. So now we're changing the switches possibly. How many in a 3 bedroom apartment? Let's be conservative and say 10 (it is more, but we'll say 10). Some will be $70 Lutron single pole dimmers, other more expensive 3-way dimmer, some simple single-pole switches... you're up to about $600+ for switches. Now the outlets--those are the same thing, yellowed and won't match new covers. Replace those and you are in for a few more hundred plus electrician's time. Then add the inexpensive cover plates you mention. This little project just cost you $2000+. Not a few hundred.

Ripping out a tub!? Do you know what that involves? Tearing apart practically the entire bathroom. What do you think is under the tub? A surface you just tile over? Nope. And to install a shower stall over it, are we talking a prefab "booth" or a built in custom tiled stall? Because the custom job requires a whole reconstruction of the floor with a lead liner, etc. Even installation of a booth type thing might require some waterproofing of the floor beneath it. Plumbing has to be moved which mean possibly being required by the building to do some upgrades in the lines leading to the faucets. a thermostatic valve is required I believe if you change the plumbing--a necessary upgrade you'll want anyway to avoid burns in the shower. Those faucets and valves cost a few hundred (and could be much more if you go higher end) in themselves. The labor involved in all this is significant.

Now, in planning costs, it is silly to just assume no building permits needed. Better budget them in just in case. I think between the bathroom work proposed and tearing down walls (no one cares if they are not load-bearing...that has little to do with it) you will indeed be required to get city permits.

Telling this poster that $50K will cover it when there are $12K+ in fixed start up costs is almost malevolent.

I do love the way people are very earnest in giving me advice in these forums, that's why I knew to ask. Thanks so much for all of your feedback. I will revise the budget based on this feedback - always invaluable.

Oh just one thing about the bath tubs, I just couldn't help noticing everyone saying leave the tubs alone. I have young kids so I know we don't use them at all - they have their own baby tubs and no one in our house takes baths (don't have the time!). Maybe I'll leave one in.

Kylewest,

I have done over dozens of paint jobs at 1k in my previous places with nothing but complements and with over few dozens of referals out to friends and families. It also makes it easy to do the paint work when redoing the floor, moulding, ceiling lights, outlet, light switches, etc.

Most GC will do the light switches and outlets for free as long as you provide them with the supplies. They will need to remove them anyways for painting so why charge to place them back? If the swich is yellowed oout beyond refinish, yes it would cost little more to replace and wire.

You do not need to pay for all those bogus fees as the GC will have those plans ready other than fees associated with the city & the building.

I just had my 3rd 52" TV mounted by one of my GC. $90 + 20tip + $30 flush wall mount.
I bet you paid $300+?

Spelling mistake: Compliments oops

Just to let you know, you should check out your building's requirements about replacing a tub with a shower. My building requires a new (larger) drain be installed, which means you have to access the apartment below. Convincing another owner to let you rip up their bathroom may be difficult and or expensive. If your building does not have this requirement, things may be easier and cheaper, but it is definitely worth checking out since it will impact your budget big time.

Another note, when you get GC to come and bid, bring at least half from NJ or outer borough of Manhattan.

Definitely leave one of the tubs in. It really can be a dealbreaker for buyers if there are no bathtubs at all. And, if you plan to stay for the next couple of decades you may find as you get older that a nice epsom salt soak will do a world of good for your weary bones (at least this is what I've heard anecdotally ;-)

As regards the architect issue--it is not likely you will need a DOB permit for the work you're describing, unless the bathroom jobs require pipes to be moved significantly. However, your building may require you to use an architect anyway. In our case we were breaking through an existing wall to create a doorway and expanding the footprint of the kitchen (no water or gas lines moved) and the co-op required architectural drawings for that.

Remember when budgeting to always assume the costs will creep upwards and plan accordingly. There will invariably be unexpected issues that crop up along the way that even the most detailed planning cannot foresee.

gut-reno, i'm guessing that your children are very small if you are using baby tubs. once they reach the age of 3-8 yrs old, they can spend at least an hour in the tub playing, if you let them. we put both our boys (4 and 7) in for 15 minutes to play, then wash them, then refill the tub for another 15 min worth of play. that is only if they both behave, very rare ;)

Gut reno, in this order:

1) Figure out what is required practice in your building. Your new neighbors are the best resource. If you think this work requires a permit, go to the DOB website and find out who has filed the most recent permits. If you don't want to approach a neighbor, talk to the expediter/GC/architect who has filed. They should want to share info because they might get a new client.

2) Talk to the super - find out what has been permitted w/o filing for a permit.

3) Baby tubs? My kids outgrew those when they were about 6 months old - right into the big bathtub. Whether it's 6 months or 1 year, it does happen at some point. Also, if you have more than 1, isn't it faster to bathe them together in 1 tub? I like saving time, too.

Without knowing the building you're buying into, and the rules - we're all shooting in the dark.

I have friends who have done what you're talking about (without reconfiguring walls + lighting) with no permits whatsoever, going with a GC who'd done tons of work in the building with the kind of budget you're talking about.

OTOH, tons of buildings these days require one to have architectural drawings, licensed electricians to change sockets.

The variation is huge.

Also talk to the managing agent - figure out what the black-and-white house rules are.

Thanks all for the additional input. I am going to check with the managing agent, definitely, also the alteration agreement. Should probably find out about the shower/tub thing...

Gut_Reno,

I would be happy to take a look at your place and give you a real budget that you can go off of.

to view my work: www.primerenovationsnyc.com

to email: primerenovations@mac.com

If you just wan tho talk about your project: 646-436-3942

gut_reno: if you are new on this board, and it counts for anything, Primer is a legit guy whose contributions on street easy over the past year or so have been highly valuable. His understanding of renos, in terms of estimated costs, expected finish quality, building and NYC requirements, resources are excellent. If I were doing another reno, I'd definitely confer with him.

Primer is a good, friendly guy.
gut_reno: giving him a call/e-mail is a pleasure in itself.

Kylewest,

Coming from you means a lot to me as you are probably the most respected person on this board. Thank you very much

Truth,

It was a pleasure speaking to you as well

oh jesus.

Gut Reno,

Make sure and get an estimate from All Renovation (http://www.allrenovationllc.com), I had them gut renovate my brownstone in Brooklyn several years ago and their estimate was itemized - YES ITEMIZED PER FLOOR - my job was three story. The other GC's I invited to estimate the project gave me bulk prices per floor so it was an easy decision to go with All Renovation. The itemized estimate helped me with my budget (allowed me to hold off on some items for later) and their team was very helpful ( I was a newbie). Their office number is 718-351-4099, ask for Pietro or Robert.

Best,
Adam K.

Just to update: spoke with super and managing agent and they confirmed that every time someone replaces a bathtub or takes it out and replaces it with a shower they ask for the drain line to be replaced. This means access to the neighbors downstairs is required! Fingers crossed the bathrooms downstairs are not covered with marble!!
Also the alteration agreement does request that thermostatic valves be put in place (which is fine) as well as smoke alarms & window guards (odd).
Final note: the alteration agreement only says that the building architect has to agree with your architect (it is a requirement to submit architect drawings with renovation plans) on what permits are needed.