Flood Risk in Ground Floor Duplex

I have looked at ground-floor duplexes and find that while they trade at a discount, the risk of flooding isn't really factored into their prices.

Just b/c NYC has a history of near-misses doesn't mean that a hurricane couldn't come barreling into the L.I. Sound and flood much of lower Manhattan. If this actually happened, many 1st floors would be completely underwater - not to mention the lower floors/basements which would basically be under 20 ft of water.

Such an event would not only be extremely costly to ground floor duplex owners, but would most likely smash the long-term value of such apartments. Of course it would make people think twice about living in a flood zone, even if they are on a top floor.

Again, these risks aren't reflected in ground floor or duplex apartments in NYC b/c no one thinks it is going to happen to them. While the odds might be relatively low, if it does happen, you would be looking at extraordinary costs to repair damage and may not be able to sell the apartment without taking a tremendous haircut.

Might also want to mention that this is the most expensive unit in the building - otherwise known as "the elephant in the basement". Basically the entire lower floor is windowless. Not great for resale in a building in which yours will be the top of the line pricewise.

I definitely hear where you're coming from, but a 1% annual risk? That sounds incredibly low, and not something that i've ever heard of happening before (not that that means it never WILL happen). At 1% risk i think there's just so many other unpredictable things that could go wrong, that this doesn't seem like such a big issue. For example, what's the annual risk that a tornado would tear through Park Slope and rip roofs off brownstones? Pretty damn low, but it happened last year and it was completely unexpected.

My point is, you're more likely to have some big disaster/home improvement nightmare hit you completely unforeseen than a flood. Just my 2 cents.

Just actually looked up the bldg. Is that a ductless heating unit i see in the photos? There's another thread going on about ductless heat, you should be aware that a lot of these units stop working around the freezing mark and switch to electric heat which is PRICEY. Not a great solution for the Northeast. I actually walked away from a condo because ductless heating was the only option...

Well, what are you going to put down there? If you get a tiled basement floor wet, it will dry out. If you get a couch wet, you have to toss it.

Also, how big is the space?

The worst flood I had out at the beach was maybe 2 feet of water that stood for awhile. The things that were stored up on blocks -- even say rugs -- didn't get that wet and later dried out. But all the furniture on that level had to be tossed, so that was several hundred dollars to get guys to haul the stuff out to the dump.

I tried to save the drywall, but since it had gotten wet, I started having a recurring mold problem, and eventually had to remediate it, which cost somewhere around ten thousand to rip the space back to the studs and chemically treat.

I never refinished that space (though I think the next owners did).

But I would say if you were trying to use basement space as living space, but have some finishes that would stand up to water (i.e. concrete or tiled floors rather than wood), and you didn't have a kitchen or a bath down there, you could probably go through one bad flood for $25K.

At a 1% annual risk, you might consider self-insuring against that.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Basically, you're asking us if it's crazy to buy a below sea level duplex in a flood zone superfund district that went through the worth oil disaster in US history?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/nyregion/28newtown.html
Duh!
It's one think to be flooded and another to be flooded with chemical infested waters!
Once the insurance company realize that, the insurrance premium will become ridiculous !
May be you're hoping some global warming policies to save you from a disaster to happen?
Life's too short! Take your downpayment and go to Vegas! The thrill is instant!

I lived in a ground floor duplex in flood zone B for 6 years and it did flood several times. I was renting, so not responsible for the repairs, but I had mold problems and cockroaches as a result. My landlord was a total slumlord though and if they had actually fixed things properly I might not have had such bad problems. In addition to the flooding though, it just sucked being on the ground floor and hearing all of the traffic coming in and out of the building. I was close to the front door and people slammed it constantly which would wake me right up out of a nap. I didn't have a private back yard, so I saw bums going through trash cans all day and all night long or dogs going to the bathroom on the sidewalk.

Because of this, when I was searching for an apartment to puchase I wouldn't even consider anything on the first or even second floor as an option, it had to be 3 or higher. Which was very difficult since the majority of inventory in my price range and desired neighborhood is ground or first floor. And it's tricky since a lot of apartments that sound like they're on the 3rd floor are actually on the first. Like #3A would be one flight up from street level.

I might be biased because I know there are a lot of benefits to being on the ground floor if you get the right building and unit, but that is just my experience. Good luck with it!

We've been having once in a century flooding disasters in the northeast every couple of years lately. It's not a risk I'd be willing to take.

i guess Irene has been forgotten.

I've got a few cool iPhone videos from last fall showing sections of the west side highway under 2 feet of water and storm surge overrunning the helipads if that'll help you make a decision. I wouldn't buy anything located in an NYC flood evacuation zone. Global warming baby!

1% is annual risk, meaning over 100 years you have an almost certain risk of flooding. Given that the polar caps are currently melting, and the sea levels are predicted to rise between 5-15 ft, it's very risky. If you were buying a floor-through with a wet basement, at that price, that would be fine. But here you're thinking you're buying a duplex. This isn't a duplex, because the lower level is not habitable.

Thanks, everyone. This wasn't what I wanted to hear, but I guess it's what I needed to hear. Any thoughts on whether we might be able to recoup our expenses to date from the sponsor (roughly 2k in lawyer fees, inspections, appraisals, etc.) since the flood risk wasn't declared in the offering plan? The sponsor claims his surveyor told him the building wasn't in a high risk flood zone. Shame on us for not checking the flood maps ourselves I suppose, but we are first time buyers and didn't know any better.

I grew up in Philly, where most of the old houses had basement-level kitchens and mechanicals. 250 years later, they're still down there.

That said, you are taking on more risk with this property. Living there will be much more like living in a house.... for good and for bad!

You have to weigh the risk v. the benefits. We're in the opposite of your apartment, a top floor apartment in a small building. We added an enormous skylight and, with it, a lot of insurance responsibility, as the master insurance will not cover any leaks, etc. resulting from this skylight. But the light it adds to all three levels of our apartment is incredible, and I don't regret our decision for an instant on the 364 days of the year when I'm not writing the insurance check.

I tend to agree with Ali that your worst case scenario for a bad flood could be as low as $25k-$50k if you have the right building materials down there. And if you get 10' of water, ever, then frankly we're all screwed.

I lived in gound floor unit with a basement legal bedroom. It flooded FREQUENTLY with just heavy rainstorms. Stay very far away.

Not to mention water main breaks

Delancey and Bowery 5 hours ago....
http://www.thelodownny.com/leslog/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/bowery-flooding-5.jpg

My flooding was just from clogged outdoor drains. A few leaves or some paper and 5 inches of water in my bedroom.

just curious - what happens if you are above the third floor or so and your building floods? I would assume if the building doesn't have flood insurance, each of the owners in the building are responsible for their pro rata share to rebuild the common areas (lobby, hallways on the 1-2 floors that were flooded, etc). Does anybody who lives above the 3-4 floor even consider getting flood insurance?

I used to live in a manhattan duplex garden apt. A few weeks after some major rain storms, my tile floor on the ground floor buckled. The co op refused to accept it as a co op problem. I had to have very, very expensive engineering reports done and it turned out that due to a heavy rain season, underground streams changed course. It was a two year nightmare that put enormous stress on all the co op members. I would never consider a small co op or a ground floor apt again.

The solution: make sure to have a look at the Federal flood zones. People used to build on hills and elevations for a reason. If you look at a geological map of Manhattan, you can tell that the high ground follows Broadway (the old Indian trail.) A garden duplex within 3 blocks of Broadway (or any neighborhood with hill or heights in its name), is probably fine. A ground floor apt in the swampy bottoms, not so much. If you go on Property Shark, each building has its accompanying designation. i wouldn't buy anything with the dreaded >1% flood risk.

Broadway = "The Old Post Road".
The pony express delivered to upstate N.Y. on that route.
Not that there was any other way.

In 2005 I went into contract for a ground floor/cellar duplex new construction condo like yourself. I was concerned about flood risk, but I visited the building several times before closing (and there happened to be some outrageous rain storms that year) which calmed me a bit. I haven't had any flooding issues. The big difference, my apartment is in Hamilton Heights, at one of the higher elevation points in Manhattan- so I was more concerned with more routine types of water problems. I agree with apt23, that if this type of apartment is built incorrectly, or has the forces of nature turn against it, that it could be a disaster for a small condo or coop.

I love my apartment, but given the risks, I would be extremely worried about buying the same apartment if it was in a flood zone.

F.Y.I.: to anybody looking in Brooklyn:

If future floods anywhere in Manhattan/Brooklyn, and you purchased at One Brooklyn Bridge Park:

it's not going to be good for you.

RAL will be unavailable. He will head for the hills.
But not to Mountain Village in Telluride, Colorado.

He already ruined that town.

"When the walls come crumblin' down
when the walls come tumblin' down..."

Spencer Levine will be the first "owner" packed and outta there.
Ian Levine, the managing agent ( nepotism rules at OBBP ) will not return your calls.

So what are the areas to avoid at all costs in terms of potential flooding??

Start here: http://gis.nyc.gov/dob/fm/index.htm
Find your block on the map. If you're covered in blue like we are, you're in bad shape.
FEMA also runs a website where you can enter your address and get your flood risk: http://www.floodsmart.gov/floodsmart/

anyone have any estimates for replacing a supm pump in a basement ? 1/3 horsepowere pump. The basin is already built.

A 1/3 HP sump pump is about $150.

Replacing an existing sump pump is a very doable job for somebody with moderate DIY skills (you can even find numerous YouTube videos with instructions), and a plumber can do it in under 30 minutes.

"Broadway = "The Old Post Road".
The pony express delivered to upstate N.Y. on that route.
Not that there was any other way."

trUth, your memory is slipping after all these centuries. You traversed the Post Road many times when you were young.

1. The Post Road went between lower Manhattan and Boston. Upstate, not so much
2. Its alignment followed modern Broadway only to today's Madison Park, then mostly Second and Third Avenues and what's now Central Park from 96th St. Saint Nick's in Harlem [be careful -- dangerous neighborhood], then back to today's Broadway at 170th or so. Over the King's Bridge to the Bronx, and on through Westchester and New England.
3. The Pony Express went from the Midwest to Cali, and not much, and not for very long.
4. The "other way", and the primary way, to upstate NY was by river.

marco_m, I thought you bought into new construction in Harlem. It flooded?

lower carnegie hill

Mea culpa ... there was also an Albany Post Road, albeit a much less important one than the Boston Post Road from which it veered off.

nope....yorkville pre-war...this is preventive maintenance.

Flood is one of the natural disasters and can ruin our life in seconds. If the water level is low in the ground floor use sump pump to drain out and turn off all the water and electrical sources to avoid danger or else speak to flood damage cleanup in Long Island New York. They are the specialist in restoring the water damage by taking proper steps to completely clear the surface. Moreover, ready to help 24*7 in other conditions as well.