What's going on with jumbo loans?

Yes, currently the spread between "conventional conforming" loans (<$417,000) and "jumbo loans" is about 1.625%, but it used to be only about 1.0%. That's because now, thanks to the government's economic stimulus package (sarcasm), there is a new category of loans called "jumbo-conforming" which for NYC is for loans between $417,000 and $729,750. The problem is that "jumbo conforming" loans are priced about 0.75% above "conventional conforming." Having this new category of mortgage between "conventional conforming" and "jumbo" has had the effect of widening the spread between the two.

From what I am seeing now (30-year fixed):
Conventional Conforming: 5.875%
Jumbo Conforming: 6.625%
Jumbo: 7.50%

So essentially, the government's attempt to stimulate the home-buying market has essentially raised the cost of purchasing in places like NYC by widening the spread between conventional and jumbo loans. There's a very good article at:

http://homefinance.nytimes.com/nyt/article/mortgage-column-by-bob-tedeschi/2008.03.27.mort/?ref=realestate

Hope that helps.

Thanks iMom for confirming what I thought was a very discrepant spread between conforming and jumbos. I read the Tedeschi article too (after I put up this post!).

As I understand it, the new jumbo conforming does not apply to co-ops, is this true? Or are local lenders making an exception?

Just as I was feeling optimistic about making a purchase, this jump in interest rates really puts me back down!

iMom: You might be confusing correlation with causation. There is little reason to believe that jumbo rates have been driven up by Congress raising the GSE conforming loan limits. Jumbo rates are being pushed upward by two related factors: a liquidity crunch and a flight to quality. The whole MBS market has flatlined; as a result, the jumbo market now belongs to portfolio lenders, who have a finite amount of capital. Those lenders can cherry-pick the best borrowers and collateral, and still charge a big spread because of simple supply and demand. For a decade, the portfolio guys have been forced to compete with Wall Street conduits that have flooded the market with an inexhaustible supply of liquidity, driving rates and underwriting standards down. Today, that outside money has dried up, so old-fashioned lending is a profitable business again because demand for mortgages (although way down in a slow housing market) finally exceeds supply.

Just curious if anyone has gotten to the bottom of whether co-ops are covered. The agency materials seemed to intimate that they are not covered, but there's really been nothing in the press about it, and the legislative history does not address it, at least not explicilty. It does not to appear to be what Congress intended.

West 81st: Good info. Thanks for the insight.
Tony: I know for a fact that coops are not included in the new jumbo-conforming. Sorry.

Excluding coops makes perfect sense. Congress is trying to inject emergency liquidity into distressed markets. Those markets don't have a significant number of coops. Whether the exclusion was intentional or accidental, it's pretty reasonable to put the money where it's needed. Park Avenue isn't distressed. Even Rego Park isn't distressed at this point. Down, perhaps. But in need of GSE support? Not really.

Tony: I back up iMom. In the process of a casual shop around for rates, lenders at Chase and Merrill Lynch told me that co-ops are not included, and are also quoting me well over 7% (no points) for a loan of $580K (not a very big "jumbo"!). This does not take into account my credit score, financial situations, etc, which I hope will bring the rate down.

Thanks all. West81st, while it may have made sense for Congress to do this, my impression is that it was not intended. I think it may have been more of an agency concern about different types of ownership. I'd like to hear from Schumer and Clinton what they think about it.

west 81st has it right..MBS markets still in distress, capital is crunched, risk is still repriced, and mortgage markets are still in distress. In this environment, rates are pressured. Govt/fed is trying to find solutions to the problem to ease this credit crunch cycle. This is HOW macro can affect lending!

Doesn't matter, because some banks now won't even finance co-ops, because of the extra risk.

Dang, that is bleak Steve.

Any one have ANY idea how to get an affordable jumbo? Will "good risks" get better rates?

Only affordable Jumbos are the ARMS. You can still get 5 year ARMS in the mid 5% range and 7 year ARMS under 6%.

khd, banks now want 30% down and PMI for anything below 25%.

gbb, you can only get an ARM if you can afford the maximum reset today. So if your ARM is at 5%, with a cap of +7%, you need to be able to afford the ARM at 12% TODAY. Otherwise, you won't get it.

khd, the problem isn't that the mortgage rate is unaffordable. The problem is that the purchase price is unaffordable, and that's why they're falling so fast.

actually steve, pmi is needed if less than 20% down not 25%. Banks are still doing 20% down up to $2 million loan and you are not qualified on the max capped rate on ARMS. Please don't mislead everyone.

actually, gbb, I went to e-loan and was quoted a loan that included PMI because the down payment was below 25%, and it was a $1 million loan.

I'm not misleading people. Rates on ARMs are capped, and not only are a lot of banks requiring that that you have to be able to afford the maximum reset today, that is one of the proposals that will probably be enacted into law. And it only makes sense: at 5%, every $1,000 in loan will cost you $5.37 per month. At 12% - a hypothetical maximum - that will cost you $10.29. If the loan resets in 5 years and the payment doubles and your income hasn't - and whose does in 5 years? - then you can't pay it back.

That's what got the banks in trouble in the first place, and not only does it put them on the line for huge losses, they could potentially be sued for issuing a loan that people can't afford. The doctrine is called Lender Liability, and here's what FindLaw has to say about it:

"Lender liability, which first gained prominence in the mid-1980s, has gained acceptance as a substantive body of law. Briefly, lender liability law says lenders must treat their borrowers fairly, and when they don't, they can be subject to borrower litigation under a variety of legal claims. The decade-long evolution of lender liability has resulted in most cases now involving breach of contract and/or fraud claims."

I worked at Bank of America as an auditor in the 1980's, and we lost a lot of lawsuits like that.

So like it or not, it's true.

HSBC quotes, on their website, 7.25% paying 1.75 points for a jumbo 30 year. That is their BEST rate. Wells Fargo quotes 7.5% with 1 point for the same product. I understand those to be the two cheapest banks. My understanding is that with no points, your rate is over 8% at most banks. Seems like it makes sense to buy the rate down, but I'm guessing no one is going to get a rate they can live with right now, knowing they are buying at 5 1/2% prices.

You all can say what you want, but this is what e-loan quotes for a $1 million variable-rate loan with zero points:

1-year high = 11.75% low = 10.75%
3-year high = 10.25% low = 9.625%
5-year high = 9.625% low = 8.625%

Those are the naked interest rates (not APR's) for no points: in other words you don't give the bank free money upfront.

The rates for a 30-year fixed are:

high = 11.75% low = 10.75%

The high-end include varying degrees of credits; the low end include almost no credits. So those are your bare-naked interest rates.

That is, the low end is more representative of what's in the market at zero points.

I'm just looking for a loan of well under 1M, like $580K. The quotes I'm getting are around 7-7.5%, about 1% higher than a month ago. Sort of blows...

khd, and then they ask you for 30% down.

It's gotta be fairly obvious that banks don't want to make these loans. They get money from the Fed at 2.5%, lend it out at 10.75%. Sounds like a nice return to me.

Banks are doing what the Fed doesn't want them to do: squeezing all the air out of the property market.

If my adjustable rate were to reset today, it would fall a few percentage points. I pay 4.5% margin at Fidelity, basically backed by pieces of paper. Look at what they want for a mortgage loan, always considered the best type of loan possible in the past.

Mortgage = Poison. And what's funniest is the 5-year variable rate is the lowest, and the 1-year variable and 30-year fixed are the highest. Shows you right where they expect property prices to go.

HSBC and Wells Fargo do not have the lowest rates. Mortgage brokers such as Manhattan Mortgage and Preferred Empire will find you lower rates, or you can go directly to the smaller banks.

There are no lower rates. They can (and do) advertise anything on their website, then you get to their office and they say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. You don't qualify for that rate."

Emigrant Savings is charging 9.132% for a 30-year fixed $1,000,000 mortgage 0 points. Those are the rates. No bank is going to get into this market. And read the papers: small and regional banks are the ones worst hit, because most of their business comes from home loans, and they keep them on their books.

khd, everything that steve says is bleak. Haven't you read his posts? Don't pay any attention. Have a look, you can still get a solid 7/1 at a good rate. steve will respond to this post with, 25%, PMI, ARM's the death of us, 10.98%...blah..blah...double blah!!!! Yawn. Have a look at Manhattan Mortgage as masterd pointed out.

Masterd, let me explain something very clearly to you. Your mortgage broker (Manhattan Mortgage or Preferred Empire) gets your loan from a bank. He has to charge more than the bank in order to make a profit. In order to do that, he has to either lie to you about the rate or the closing costs. He will then either change the rate or buy down your rate with a hidden fee presented at closing. If you want to back out at the closing table, you are always free to, but then you jeopardize the purchase (of your overpriced purchase).

Will a co-op board even approve a purchase with the buyer taking out a jumbo ARM? Why would they let the buyer take the interest rate risk?

dmag2020, thank you very much. Not only do they have to get financing from banks, but they can't securitize the loans anymore so they have to hold them on their books. That's why Northern Rock in the UK and all the nonbank mortgage lenders here, including Countrywide, have failed: banks have deposits, and that's how they finance their loans (in case you didn't know). The had no deposits, so they would borrow short-term from banks then sell long-term mortgages with the money, securitize the loans and pass them off to investors.

And therein lies the same problem as with ARM's: short-term financing of a long-term asset does not work.

Not only that, with all the fraud at mortgage brokers in recent years, banks - like BofA - have stopped working with them. There are no more nonbank "mortgage companies" anymore: the two biggest players, Bear Stearns and Countrywide, failed. Hundreds have declared bankruptcy.

Guess why?

Those rates are fake - I was waiting for either the Juice or Spunkster to say something. Ignorance, sometimes, is not so bliss.

JuiceMan, you don't know how they do it. I do, remember?

The sky is falling the sky is falling! steve, do you have a bomb shelter in your rental?

According to the JuiceMan, BANKS ARE LINING UP TO JUMP INTO THE RESIDENTIAL MORTGAGE BUSINESS!! Yipee! Yapee! Yahooie! What fun this is going to be!

So a big player like Emigrant or Chase or BofA is charging 9+% for a 30-year fixed mortgage no points, so here's an idea: all the little banks in the country are going to jump into this neat-o residential mortgage market where prices have fallen 17% in a year, foreclosures are at historic highs and growing, no one will buy the mortgages from them, they're nonconforming so they don't come with government backing.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

If one CEO suggested to his board that the bank expand its exposure to residential mortgages, they wouldn't even bother showing him the door. They shove his ass out the window.

GIVE ME A BREAK!

I hear the cold war is starting again

Juiceman, the mortgage brokers will make their last dollars, unfortunately, off of naive buyers in Manhattan who don't realize the scam. They are starving in every other market, and the last bastion of unscrupulous profits will come from this market. I feel bad for those who haven't figured out the game yet. Unfortunately there will be no assets left in the business to reclaim after the lawsuits come in.

Oh, but juiceman will advertise them on here in an effort to support the market! What a total JOKE to humanity.

Juicy...mortgage brokers buy - bought - bulk mortgages from banks and nonbank financial institutions and steered people into the loan that gave them the biggest profit. That's all. An unnecessary middleman.

dmag2020, mortgage brokers are going to be subject to strict regulation soon. And I wouldn't be surprised to see the same thing happen to real estate agents. How can they lie like that and get away with it?

What is really surprising is that there are people on here cheerleading for the very same institutions that helped bring down the rest of the country.

yes dmag. I'm here to talk up the market. Exactly. How about trying to inject a little realism into “doctor doom a lot”?

A question to you two brain surgeons. How long do you think the credit issues will impact lending? Do me a favor steve, let dmag answer first.

Juiceman, for the rest of your life.

dmag, your a little girl in a grown women's game.

Juiceman, I know you are a realist, as evidenced by some really funny unbiased posts by you. You will feel much better once you sell your apartment at the top of the market. Trust me. And if you take my advice and don't use a mortgage broker when you buy back in at whatever discount you decide to buy back in at, you will also thank me instead of calling me a little girl. Enjoy your big woman's game.

steve you are just a flat out liar. how do people get to be like you. first of all you draw conclusions on the loan market based on what you personally were quoted on eloan, are you freakin kidding me?

One of my friends just rate locked a 1 mil loan directly with a substantial bank here in nyc, 6 3/8 30 year fixed. Another is locking a 7 year arm this week, again directly with a substantial bank, close to 2 mil, 5.25%. And I personally have received recent quotes from Citicorp and Chase, and while their rates suck in comparison with what you can find in the market, they're no where near the numbers you're throwing around and I'm talking with respect to 2 mil loans

These are just a few examples, they certainly don't prove the market either but they fly directly in the face of your "evidence."

JuiceMan, I'm typing in my nightgown, last post for tonight, I went the whole 9 yards and finished that stupid document I was working on, so I have tomorrow off.

It depends on what part of the credit problem. The problem with non-bank mortgage lenders is over: they're all gone. Banks lend money that they have on deposit; those companies had no deposits. They went the way that mortgage brokers are going: dead. A big bank like BofA or Chase doesn't need to buy a distribution network, especially one whose honesty is in doubt, that they don't control.

CDO et al. write-downs. Few people know that that is for the most part a fake accounting issue. Banks hold these illiquid securities with no real secondary market on their books. They guestimate a price that Buffett calls "mark to myth" because there is no way to mark them to market. But now, what small secondary market there was has dried up, so an asset with no market is worthless. They're all going to be written off. I don't know how long it will take, but I think we're getting to the end.

However, those securities aren't actually worth nothing. They're probably worth 90 cents on the dollar. So as a market redevelops for them, they will be written back up in value, and banks will make a fortune.

The problem with them now, as I note elsewhere, is that nobody knows exactly what's in these things. They tried to apply an automatic reinsurance model to them - mixing risk - but automatic reinsurance is actuarily calculated: they know what their risk is. No one knows what's in these instruments, however, and no one knows the default history on these types of mortgages because they've never been issued before. That's why there is no price, that's why no one will buy them: they don't know what they are. There won't be a price until it becomes clear what's going to happen, and no on knows when that will be. But that's the timeline for the upside; I think we're almost to the bottom of the downside (seen in the stock market as well, btw).

Then, there's the retail credit issue. We will NEVER EVER ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY see this much leverage put into a single asset class. Judging by the interest rates you deny exist, banks are trying to deflate this market quickly, to get rid of the pain. That is actually a good thing, because there is nothing even the government can do to stop it - it can only prolong it. George Soros made his billions betting against the Bank of England; the US government can't stop property prices from coming into line with incomes. It's not possible.

There will be re-regulation in the future, but for now, no bank is going to lend you anywhere near today's asking prices. We are going back to sound, 30-year fixed mortgages with 20% down, or variable rate mortgages but only if you can afford the maximum interest rate currently. Anything else is imprudent; it's imprudent to borrow short-term for a long-term asset.

I don't know how long it will take for the market to adjust - sellers are notoriously unwilling to lower their prices - but the process has begun. I expect a huge increase in inventories because basically rates have almost doubled and prices aren't going down. In NYC incomes are falling because there are no more huge Wall Street bonuses, more layoffs are coming, and the cheap M&A money is gone as is the 100x leverage that brought down BSC. All those asset-backed securities are written off - no bonuses there.

In effect, things will return to their prudent norm. The air is being sucked out by the banks. The Fed is doing everything it can with low rates and liquidity facilities, but the banks just won't lend. That tells you that they see a lot of future risk and are rebuilding their balance sheets.

Honestly, I hope it happens faster than it did in 1987-1998, and I think it will. The NYC property market is far more liquid now with condominiums and market rental buildings versus co-ops and rent stabilization. If prices fall 30% in a year - which they could - then things will be back to normal soon. Prices today aren't controlled by apartment owners; they're controlled by new development, of which there is a massive amount now and coming online. Lots of these "in contract" deals will never materialize because they won't be able to get affordable financing, and there is no mortgage contingency in new developments. Unless you've got enough to buy the place in cash - doubt it! - it'll be better just to walk away.

So I see a lot of confusion and unsold properties in the short-term, just as I've seen everywhere else. I hope it clears up quickly.

Steve - I must also debunk your ridiculous statements about the mortgage rates and market. I have gotten a lock from Citicorp for 2.5M 7/1 ARM and the rate is 5.25. The 10/1 ARM was 5.625. I put down 30% and have good credit.

So please, stop the BS about mortgages and the doom and gloom - stick to what you know, which is calculations of rent vs buy. Great rates are available, assuming you have good credit and are not overextending yourself.

You very clearly are desperately trying to influence the potential buyers reading this board.

cranky,

I have impeccable credit (>800) and would even consider putting enough cash down on a 2BR to require no more than a conforming mortgage. here are the data points I've received (30 yr fixed) - conforming 5.875%, jumbo 7.25%. The lender (not a mortgage broker) explained that there simply is no investment appetite for MBS's, and as long as that's the case rates will be high, Fed be damned. The lender also indicated that the conforming limit increase is having and will have NO effect on rates greater than $417K. The driver is demand for jumbo loans, which is still non-existent.

yournamehere, yes no doubt 30yr fixed are still expensive and will remain so while there is a liquidity issue for long term MBS. ARM is where it's at, at the moment.

yournamehere: Cranky is absolutely right in his last post. Your strong cash position qualifies you for fairly attractive ARM terms, even in the midst of the current squeeze. Unless you have a powerful emotional need to lock in a rate forever, there's very little reason to consider the crummy 30-year fixed jumbo quotes that are currently available.

Guys, WHEN did you lock in the rate?

Then, nobody "quoted" me those rates. Go to e-loan.com, find out for yourself. Go to bankrate.com, find out for yourself (and disregard the ones that say "rates subject to change on a daily basis").

Those are ZERO POINT loans. What are yours? How many points? I can get a 2-point loan for 6.375% at Chase, IF I QUALIFY, and I have the great opportunity of paying $20,000 in interest in advance.

Isn't that nice? Well, when you do the math, it comes out to the same rate as a ZERO POINT LOAN. Banks aren't dumb. You are. They have absolutely, positively figured out what is to their advantage. and a ZERO POINT LOAN, with nothing paid up front, is exactly the same as charging you a lower rate with points.

E-loan 1/1 ARM:

10.125% for 0.895 points. YES THE APR IS 5.002% BUT WITH A MARGIN OF 2.750%.

And the INTEREST RATE is 10.125%

Or you can get a 30-year fixed at 8.250% , 2.789 points, APR of 8.615%

LOOK AT THE DETAILS OF YOUR LOAN. KNOW WHAT IT ALL MEANS. DON'T ACCUSE ME OF BS WHEN IT'S YOU WHO DON'T KNOW THE MORTGAGE PRODUCT YOU'VE GOTTEN YOURSELF INTO.

INTEREST RATE DOES NOT EQUAL APR.

You don't know what you're talking about. This is from citimortgage's website TONIGHT:

30 year fixed jumbo mortgage 8.250% with 5.875 POINTS! 5.875 POINTS! THEY WON'T EVEN QUOTE A VARIABLE-RATE MORTGAGE ONLINE.

BofA quotes:

30-Year Fixed-Rate Jumbo 7.750% 1.036 points APR 7.868%
3/1 ARM Jumbo 8.375% 2.023 points APR 5.954%

You're right - you are getting those APR's. But that's not what the interest rate is. You need to know how to calculate the APR of an adjustable-rate mortgage, which is not the same as for a fixed-rate mortgage. Your anger is due to your ignorance.

Idiots.

And that is the INTEREST RATE, not the APR. I hope you know the difference.

Chase WON'T EVEN QUOTE a 1/1 ARM. A 3-year ARM is 7.375% with 0.125 points.

Steve, let me start off by saying: if you are so smart, how can you be so stupid? The fact that you are using e-loan and bankrate.com as your supreme sources of 'facts' about the state of the mortgage industry demonstrates that you are a novice when it comes to these matters.

And secondly, the only anger on this thread is yours, probably because we just discredited in 4 lines the last 50 pages worth of mortgage related comments you have been spewing for 2 weeks.

Do you think that I'm going to qualify for a 2.5M loan and yet not know the difference between a mortgage with points and not, and between the APR and the rate?

I gave you interest rates for zero point loans, you tool, otherwise I would have said so. Lock 10 days ago. And please stop quoting 30 year fixed jumbos, we are talking about ARMs now having acknowledged that there is no appetite for 30 yr MBS at the moment.

BofA mortgage rates suck, shop elsewhere. Maybe when you are actually in a position to buy something you can talk to some real people and get some real quotes.

stevejhx, like I said before, these large banks are not offering the best jumbo rates in the market. I know because I've been shopping for a mortgage for the past month and have spoken to all the banks and brokers mentioned here. I've just received approval for a 30yr fixed jumbo at 6.5% and a 5/1 jumbo ARM at 5.25% from two different banks last week. You should stop using e-loan or citimorge as examples. People who have credit score > 720 should not settle for rates much higher than these. They should shop around more or use a broker if they don't have time.

and dmag2020, you don't need to explain to me how the mortgage brokers make money. I know and I don't always rely on them. But they do add value for people who do not have to time to shop around and I can tell you that for coop purchases, they often can find you a lower rate than you can get directly from the same bank.

masterd - which banks quoted you those rates? who else have you spoken to?

cranky & ccdevi, thanks for taking the time to point out that steve is once again talking out of his arse. The doom and gloom is tiresome, but stretching eloan and bankrate.com 30yr fixed rates into "market rates" is a new hysterical low for him. This has been my point all along, steve exaggerates to try and prove his point, which is quite funny, but his behavior can be irresponsible to novices on this board looking for good advice.

JuiceMan: You are quite the citizen. Perhaps the novices on this board should refer to your vulgar (and reported), neo-Nazi postings on the Caveat Emptor discussion string before seeking refuge in your postings here.

cranky, if you need to know, 2 weeks ago e-loan had THE BEST rates on jumbo loans available. My brother-in-law, the not-so-smart-in-your-eyes heart surgeon got his loan from there, put me onto it. This week, they've changed.

Those are REAL market rates, sorry if you don't like them. There may be better rates out there if you can find them, but nothing like the rates you quote. Chase and BofA are not the cheapest out there - that's why they're still in business.

Juicy, I'm quoting real rates. Go to the websites and check them. Spread happiness and tell everybody how wonderful things are, you and the spunkster, without providing any evidence. E-loan tells you who's offering the rate - you know. Show me a bank - not a mortgage broker who will advertise anything - that has anything like the rates these people have been saying.

Cranky claims "I have gotten a lock from Citicorp for 2.5M 7/1 ARM and the rate is 5.25. The 10/1 ARM was 5.625." Well, citimortgage quotes a 30-year fixed at 8.250% with 5.875 points. The most expensive in the market. I don't believe that lock rate he claims - go onto the website - and methinks he doesn't know the difference between an APR and an annual interest rate, which in adjustable-rate mortgages makes the APR seem low, but the annual interest rate is very high. Just do the research yourself.

Manhattan listings = 6,913. 7,000 by the end of the week.

yournamehere, have him post the commitment letter, because it doesn't exist.

yes steve, you win. everyone on this board except you is fabricating numbers.

Last I checked, you were not seeking a mortgage. Perhaps when you do, you could share with us the real market rates that you would get if you actually submitted an application with your individual financial details and went through the process. Those are the rates that several people here are sharing.

Until then, thanks for hijacking yet another thread.

Stevejhx: As you have stated repeatedly, lenders are returning to more traditional underwriting standards, and more conservative loan structures, as liquidity dries up in the capital markets. In general, that trend pushes rates higher, and makes loans harder to get at any price.

One corollary of the pendulum swinging back toward portfolio lending - and lower-volume securitization based on sounder lending principles - is that old-fashioned borrower virtues like cash in hand or a longstanding relationship with a financial institution are much more valuable than they have been in a decade or more.

There are still decent programs available; to get them, though, you need to show cash at the door, and you might have to know the particular lender's secret handshake.

In short, your macro description of the market and Cranky's anecdote about his/her own experience can be reconciled pretty easily. Buyers who need easy credit are shut out. Buyers who don't need easy money can still buy. What we don't know is the depth of that buyer pool, and the extent to which people with strong credit, deep cash reserves, and good lending connections (including people who don't really need a mortgage at all) can support the local market after marginal buyers are squeezed out and marginal owners are forced to sell. I think it's clear that Manhattan has more of those fortunate people than most places, which is one thing that makes this market "different". How different? Time will tell.

Lastly, Stevejhx, keep in mind that advertised rates can be misleading in either direction. In go-go times, a lender may advertise teaser rates or bait-and-switch phantom deals to drum up business. But when credit is tight, they may list higher rates than the ones they are actually lending at. Why? Because they don't want to waste time with people outside their core customer base, since they don't have the capacity to lend beyond that base anyway. It's much better for their long-term franchise to scare people off for a while with high rates than to shut the window altogether and try to reopen it when conditions improve.

I have to agree - e-loan and citi-mortgage are not where to shop for savvy mortgage finders with high credit (in my case 750). Granted I bought a year ago and even then these were not the best places for rates. I'm sure that changes from time to time (as per your example of your brother-in-law), but sorry but quick web searches aren't quite where it is at.

oh, cranky! Hijacking a thread called " What's going on with jumbo loans?" by quoting real rates that anybody can check online?! The days of market obfuscation are over.

Of course different people will qualify for different loans. I'm posting the ADVERTISED rates.

Every time I post real numbers giving the source, the Property Bull BS'rs post more BS, and say, "I saw this, I saw that."

Put your money up: give me where you see those rates advertised - not at a broker but at a real institution that lends money - and I'll check. If you're right, I'll post a retraction.

no steve - i'm going going to post where you can 'see those rates advertised' because when I shop for a jumbo mortgage i don't use mickey-mouse web searches and think that those are the prevailing rates for my personal situation.

i don't understand why you need things repeated so many times in order for them to register, but judging by the style of your posts on these forums it appears that ad nauseam repetition is the only way you absorb information.

if you are serious, call around and ask. And make sure you include smaller direct lenders in addition to the big banks. Here is one place you can start : www.powerexpressmortgage.com

let us know what you find.

11201962, how's streetharmony.com working out for you? Still perusing the talk forums for your next date? It is so cute how you stick up for your idol steve.

As for the other topic, before accusing someone off being a neo-Nazi, you should probably get your facts straight. In a blog, if confused about meaning, ask for clarification. You chose to take offense (and liberties with words) instead of reading the post for what it was. If you want me to apologize for having some fun with steve at your expense, that is one thing. If you want to take liberties with words, take them WAY out of context, accuse me of being a neo-Nazi and then expect me to apologize, you are deranged. I’ve personally stood on the grounds of Auschwitz and Birkenau and many other places around the world associated with hate. Streeteasy.com is not one of those places and I am not one of those people.

11201962, you need to assume that most people on this blog are good hearted and want to help people. There is a lot of ribbing that goes back and forth, it is all in good fun and part of spirited debate. My advice to you is to lighten up and have some fun here, maybe you will learn something.

Yup, cranky, I checked their advertised rates:

30 - yr. Comforming Fixed Rates 5.625%
30 - yr. Jumbo Fixed Rates 5.875%
10 -6 Jumbo I/O 5.5%
5-6 Jumbo I/O 5.375%

And not only that, I went ONE STEP FURTHER and read the bottom of the table: As of 2007-02-08 09:38:53.

That's right, European dates, as of FEBRUARY 2, 2008.

And those in fact were the rates on February 2, 2008. THEY ARE NOT TODAY'S RATES.

Those are not today's rates because they can't get money that cheap. Didn't you read that M&A can't get cheap money anymore.

So STOP WRITING CRAP. Okay.

Juiceman: Perhaps posters on this board should refer to your vulgar (and reported), neo-Nazi postings on the Caveat Emptor discussion string on this site.

Methinks...

People are free to read whatever they want, I've said all I'm going to say on the topic 11201962.

Steve, I should have been more clear: PLEASE CALL POWEREXPRESS AND ASK. Stop wasting my time, I don't want to teach you how to get a mortgage. Pick up a phone and use it, or are you only familiar with doing things on the internet?

Juiceman: You are a vulgar and unsavoury. You are not free to openly mock the tattooing of numbers on a person's arm.

You will be monitored, my well-traveled poster.

Cranky, first you say website searches are "mickey mouse," then you give me a website, then I quote you what's on the website, then you say to call.

If I call, I can report ANYTHING back. Unlike some people, I don't do that. I only post things that people can check.

You can check e-loan, you can check bankrate, you can check citimortgage, chase, bofa, emigrant. All verifiable. What is not verifiable is not valid. It must be in writing, from a financial institution.

Show me a verifiable rate, because they don't exist. Companies like powerexpress don't have deposits. They have to get their money from somewhere. They get their money from short-term lines of credit with banks. Then they package the mortgages and sell them on the secondary market.

Banks are not giving any money. It is impossible to resell these packaged mortgages on the secondary market. Or haven't you been reading the paper.

Show me verifiable, not, "Oh, I called and Vishnu said I could get a 3.0% 30-year fixed mortgage with no down payment."

Sure you can. Show me where it's advertised.

hmmmm 11201962, when did I use the word tattoo? Get your facts straight. Are you taking liberties with my words? I think you are.

Oh….and the character in Les Mis had a tattoo, can I make fun of him? My uncle Pete has his mother’s birthday tattooed on his arm, can I talk about that? One of the guys on my baseball team tattooed the number 23 on his arm, can I talk about that? Come to think of it, I should go get a tattoo of 11201962 on my ass so you can kiss it.

monitor me all you want you idiot, you are a raving lunatic and the reason I was warning steve about you to begin with.

Juiceman: You are a vulgar and unsavoury. You are being monitored.

11201962, you are a stalker who tries to get dates on streeteasy.com and I don't care if I'm monitored.

JuiceMan: Your postings and accusations will be formally addressed.

Good. As will yours.

JuiceMan, what position? I played pretty good ball as a kid, but when I went to the cage at Coney a couple of years ago and finally made contact, the bat just stopped. It was kind of tragic.

hey tenmental, I was a catcher most of my playing days. Just got back into the game recently after considerable amount of time off and know what you mean about making contact. Lot's of opportunities to play in Manhattan though and am enjoying the game again - albeit a bit slower and a few more injuries.

Although they definitely don't have the best rates in the world, just to inject a bit of reality into the conversation:

I just went to wachovia.com and "Checked Detailed Rates" for a $950K property with 20% down (so a $760K jumbo loan). Here's the results:

- 30 Year Fixed : 7.75% with .125% in points (and no, that doesn't mean 12.5 points)
- 5/1 ARM : 6.375% with the same points

Those aren't great rates, but considerably better than what stevejhx is quoting.

These rates are verifiable online at http://mortgagedirect.wachovia.com/cgi-bin/world/start.pl?opt=login&dbvia=bls&source=2&nojs=false&script=currentrates.pl

Jordyn, a 100% acceptable way to do it. I did it for a $1,000,000 loan and got:

Jumbo 30 Year Fixed 7.750% 0.125 points
Jumbo 3/1 ARM 7.250% 0 points
Jumbo 5/1 ARM 6.375% 0.125 points

Note the very high origination fee of .75 points on all of them.

You'll also see it follows the same pattern I posted: the 5/1 arm for some odd reason is significantly lower than the rest.

Countrywide and wamu don't post rates online. Wells Fargo posts this for jumbos:

30-Year Fixed 7.500%
10-Year ARM 7.250%
5-Year ARM 6.500%

They don't mention the points.

So when Cranky says, "I must also debunk your ridiculous statements about the mortgage rates and market. I have gotten a lock from Citicorp for 2.5M 7/1 ARM and the rate is 5.25. The 10/1 ARM was 5.625. I put down 30% and have good credit." It CAN'T be true in today's environment. It was true in February, but not today.

Today's rates are 50% higher than that.

And they're asking for 30% down, not making loans to co-ops.

Steve, the reason I suggested you call is because you are obviously the arbiter of the truth on these forums I figured that if you were the one to post the information it would have a certain 'credibility'. And by the way, I gave the name of the company to call - if you were to post something it can be easily verified by anyone else by calling the same company.

If you don't want to, thats fine too. I advise anyone looking for a mortgage to do their own calling around.

I think they should call around, too, cranky. But on an anonymous posting whatever we say must be verifiable.

I'm not looking for a mortgage.

i would call Indymac(NYMC in new york) or wells fargo...they are the best places IMHO for super jumbos....

NYMC may be good, but they don't post rates.

Well's rates are above.

call...published rates are useless...gotta find the right person...

oh man you just continue to lie. actually maybe too strong a word. you MAY not be a liar, but you sure are dumb. oh so you only go by ADVERTISED rates. I get it. You probably buy plasma's at best buy for full retail price too huh? Shame, try going on online you'll save thousands.

Update in the interests of full disclosure (steve you wouldn't understand). My buddy met with the banker (not broker) today. The 5.25% 7 year arm I mentioned last night went up to 5.45%. Its still $1.8 on a $2.4 place. No points. Ah but yes eloan says differently.

People in the market for a loan, do not be afraid, call up a reputable mortgage broker or ask around for a good contact at a bank (probably not Chase, Citi, BoA, think smaller regional/local banks, banks that might actually be interested in holding the paper and aren't dependent on selling the loans).