Broker is claiming there's a fee for no-fee apt

Speak to your agent. If she still says you have to pay, speak with the manager, supervisor, etc...

You did make a mistake by signing the agreement, but to collect twice is ridiculous. If it ends that way, please post the agent's name here. I'd like to know who not to do business with.

Heh, welcome to NYC :/

Sounds like she pulled a fast one on you. Definitely a sleaze move. Like vslse65 says, have a straight-forward talk with your agent, then go to her broker (her boss) and also to the management of the building. You signed the broker's agreement, so you may be out of luck. Or maybe you could haggle for a reduced fee (it's the least she could do). Either way, I'd stop working with her. Rental agents are a dime a dozen.

Remember, there are SO many more bad and scummy agents out there than good ones; it's very hard to find an agent who is decent, honest, and straight. Most are just looking for the next buck -- which is fine, it's their job -- but are willing to be deceitful and underhanded, and outright lie, it seems in your case, to do so. Maybe someone else has another suggestion. Good luck.

To add, you might want to read:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/11680-when-a-broker-shows-you-a-no-fee-apartment
(not quite your exact situation, but it might give you a few tidbits of information)

http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2012/03/29/how_to_not_get_screwed_over_by_a_rental_broker.php
(read the comments too)

Good luck.

Welcome to the "Big Apple"! The same thing happened to me with my first NYC apartment rental. The scumbag realtor made me pay under the table for an apartment that I found myself after he was showing me rentals that were not to my liking. (BTW only showed my two). I never signed anything with him, and all he kept boasting was that he wouldn't screw me and would be fair. I paid this idiot under the table CASH (yes, I was naive and stupid). When I confronted him, he was absolutely appalled that I would call him out. I had no recourse because I paid him the CASH. I did call RBNY and they of course, backed him up and said that nothing could be done to discipline the broker.
I think of this from time to time and how foolish I was. Believe me, I have learned a very, very expensive lesson on how deceptive brokers are.

Hi Jayson1, I am a broker here in the city and hope my advice can be helpful to you, especially since you're a first time NYC renter.

Was the building advertised as "no-fee" on streeteasy? That means something different than what I believe you think it means. The apartment is "no fee" to people who contact the management company directly and view the apartment through management. You do not have to pay a fee in this case. It does NOT mean that the management company is paying the broker's fee. If you see this building with a broker, you have to compensate the broker because the landlord is not. To summarize: it is no fee if you go through management, but you have to pay a fee if you signed a broker's agreement and viewed the building with the broker.

It is a small industry, and word travels fast, so I don't imagine the building will sell out the broker and do a direct, no fee deal with you after you've already registered under the broker at the building. It will risk alienating other brokers once word gets around. You also signed the broker's commission agreement, so you are, in fact, kind of stuck.

I know it's a bummer when this happens, but if you really like the apartment, try to look on the bright side. If you had not had this broker, you may have seen the apartment a few days too late, and it would've already had an application on it or had been rented by someone else who got in quicker (perhaps thanks to their broker). You have to decide if you love the apartment enough to pay the fee. You can try to negotiate it down by making it clear to the broker that you're not going to take this apartment with a large fee, and the broker will lose you (and the revenue from your future commission) because you won't work with them anymore after this deal. That may help.

Good luck to you, I hope it works out!

Buildings don't pay 15% commission, that is the maximum retail rate paid more generally when the broker has an exclusive listing and in a hot market (and often when the broker doesn't have to split with another broker).
Whether or not the broker is in the right in this situation, you hold more cards, so if you want to pay, negotiate the amount you choose to pay accordingly.

Also, Jayson, what was the nature of the discussion you had with the broker before you met and signed the agreement?

1) The broker procured the building for you. You don't show up at the building on that day without that broker. Whether you would have found it eventually is irrelevant. Said broker therefore added value and is entitled to charge you. The next 2 points are irrelevant, but....

2) You should not have signed the agreement if you did not understand the terms.

3) Broker lied to you. Sucks to be lied to.

The broker can't add value as a direct result of deception.

"To summarize: it is no fee if you go through management, but you have to pay a fee if you signed a broker's agreement and viewed the building with the broker."

This IS true and if so, you owe the broker fee.

If the agent is getting OP AND asking you for a fee (paid double), then she's hustling you.

>This IS true and if so, you owe the broker fee.

When did you become the judge? We need to hear more from the OP. If the broker got a signed agreement as a result of misrepresentation of the types of places that would be shown, then the agreements' enforceability needs closer review.

crescent22 is correct, you owe the broker money. ESPECIALLY since you were stupid enough to sign. The fact is, the broker performed a service for you. One you could have performed yourself. Also, the broker above is correct. no fee does not mean what you think it means. Lesson learned. Pay the fee and move on, you cannot win this one.

Your other choice is to look on this site or NYBits for no fee units in buildings the broker DID NOT show you, although the contract might be so broad as to cover whole sets of buildings owned by the same LL.

Since you were new to NY, you probably needed a broker, since you seem dumb about NYC real estate.

And brokers will sue you to get there fees.

When did you become the judge? We need to hear more from the OP. If the broker got a signed agreement as a result of misrepresentation of the types of places that would be shown, then the agreements' enforceability needs closer review.

I highly doubt that can be proved. A contract is a contract and if it were not for the broker the OP would not of seen the apt that day. The broker did cause an action for you to see the apt. If you signed a contract before seeing the apt and he registered you before seeing the apt with building then you probably owe him a fee if you rent the apt otherwise hire lawyer and spend several thousand to defend your case. The contract probably states losing party has to pay all legal expenses.

>otherwise hire lawyer and spend several thousand to defend your case. The contract probably states losing party has to pay all legal expenses

What a joke. I barely know where to start to address such stupidity.

> although the contract might be so broad as to cover whole sets of buildings owned by the same LL.

Is this a magic contract?

>And brokers will sue you to get there fees.

Legal scare tactics from a guy unable to spell.

Now that all listings are public and easy to consult, I really don't see what kind of value "buy side" brokers bring and how it is possible to justify fees that are so high. I love the comments of msadewitz: " If you had not had this broker, you may have seen the apartment a few days too late"... I would rather point to all the people who saw the apt too late (or never saw it) because their broker sucks but will still pay him/her big fees whenever they find something...
So my word to them: enjoy it while it lasts...

>I love the comments of msadewitz: " If you had not had this broker, you may have seen the apartment a few days too late"...

Yup.
and he said it in relation to a rental building owned by a large management company ... so really, what are the chances this listing would have been gone the next day and unavailable to the OP, but for the heroic actions of this broker?

But my favorite comment from Msadist was "I hope it works out!" ... exactly what is he hoping works out for the OP?

I'm an owner who posts no fee apartments

1/2 the people who respond are brokers looking for their (fee paying) clients.

The apartment is no fee if you rent though me, but you will have to pay your broker if they bring you in...

Honestly, with streeteasy and other sites, you really don't need a broker to find apartments for rent. If you feel like you were deceived, then don't rent this apartment and continue looking for other apartments without this broker. If you really like it enough to justify paying the fee, then you can rent it and consider that it an expensive lesson.

@jim

It is a guy who just arrived in NY and supposed and put too much in trust in the grammatical meaning of "no fee" apt. Don't need to insult him.
Btw, there are some "no fee" rentals where the renter doesn't pay a fee even if he visited through a broker, so things are not that crystal clear.

If the broker claims there's a fee then it's as simple as that: there's no fee. Brokers are prohibited by REBNY regulations from telling the truth.

TheTourist

about 7 hours ago

Posts: 89

Member since: Apr 2012

@jim

It is a guy who just arrived in NY and supposed and put too much in trust in the grammatical meaning of "no fee" apt. Don't need to insult him.
Btw, there are some "no fee" rentals where the renter doesn't pay a fee even if he visited through a broker, so things are not that crystal clear.

Bullshit. He didn't seek out a "no fee" apartment. He engaged the services of the broker, then came to streeteasy to "double check". So he didn't fall off a turnip truck. If you use a broker, you pay a commission. Period.
Also, there are some buildings that pay a PARTIAL brokerage commission. And there are some broke, weak agents out there that will show those units as "no fee". That doesn't make them "no fee" buildings if you

use a broker to see them however, as the standard commission is 15%. At best, they are "reduced fee".

You fucking people don't know shit. Even in buildings where you can go on your own to see apartments, do you know most of them time the on sites are showing you what they want you to see, and certainly not everything that might be a fit for you? They know how stupid and weak minded most people are and don't want to give you too many choices, or create the impression that they might have too many vacancies. This happens every day, with every property manager out there. We, of course, have full inventory sheets with all availabilities.

@jim

It happened to some friends of mine for FULL brokerage commissions so don't say it does not exist, you are either lying or ignorant. Glenwood management, one of the biggest landlords in the city, does that for instance (at least used to do that).
As these fees are so huge, and the guy just arrived in NY, I am sorry, his looking for an apt where he would not have to pay 1 or 2 additional rents upfront seems pretty logical to me...
As I said, enjoy it while it lasts.

>We, of course, have full inventory sheets with all availabilities.

And what do you do with this knowledge?

May have existed at one point as a promotion, doesnt mean it is happening now hayseed. Grow up, stop thinking that life is unfair. Either diy or pay!

"Enjoy it while it last"
Streeteasy is what, 7 years old? When will things change?

>7 years old?

How many years have you been "married"?

Long enough for me to claim dual citizenship with my ideal country for my retirement

So you'll be leaving us?

"Long enough for me to claim dual citizenship with my ideal country for my retirement"

... Vulgaria?

Hungry?

Mongoloia?

do as jason has said.

now that you have learned (without expense) that NYC rental brokers are lowlife scum, who misrepresent that they are showing you apts that you couldnt easily find on your own, go to ny bits and other sources and find an apt on your own.

@jim

You want to take bets ? For sure some people will always use brokers, but I predict it will stop to be mainstream.
"Diy or pay" uhm.. No, maybe I can just find an apt on my own without the BS of the broker and be very happy and not die consequently... That s another option you forgot.

"Bullshit. He didn't seek out a "no fee" apartment. He engaged the services of the broker, then came to streeteasy to "double check"."

Jim is correct. This guy is screwed.

TheTourist is also correct - for RENTALS, the internet makes brokers' lives miserable, and it will only get worse. Imagine, for example, when AirBNB starts advertising long term rentals. They have already added monthly and a few months sublets. Its only a matter of time for yearly and two year leases, especially if they want to crack NYC.

>"Bullshit. He didn't seek out a "no fee" apartment. He engaged the services of the broker, then came to streeteasy to "double check"."

If Jim is correct, then this guy was quite possibly tricked. If the OP didn't seek out the services of a broker to find a "no-fee" apartment, which would be something he wouldn't have needed to do, he more likely hired the broker to seek out a "fee" apartment that was otherwise unavailable to the OP without the services of the broker. You know, all that extra insider inventory that Jim always says he has access to but that the general public does not.

Pending learning more from the OP, one can assume among the more likely scenarios that the broker did a bait and switch, and instead of offering otherwise unavailable inventory that was only available through the brokerage channel, the broker instead offered nothing of value and took the easy way out and brought the OP to an otherwise "no-fee" apartment available to anyone without a broker.

The broker would have trouble enforcing a contract that was based on his or her own falsities. However, if the OP is a weak sheep like Jason, maybe not.

TheTourist
about 11 hours ago
Posts: 91
Member since: Apr 2012
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@jim

You want to take bets ? For sure some people will always use brokers, but I predict it will stop to be mainstream.
"Diy or pay" uhm.. No, maybe I can just find an apt on my own without the BS of the broker and be very happy and not die consequently... That s another option you forgot.

DIY (do it yourself) retard.

you are being very stupid(taking bets)? How about you predict when this shift will happen?

jason10006
about 1 hour ago
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"Bullshit. He didn't seek out a "no fee" apartment. He engaged the services of the broker, then came to streeteasy to "double check"."

Jim is correct. This guy is screwed.

TheTourist is also correct - for RENTALS, the internet makes brokers' lives miserable, and it will only get worse. Imagine, for example, when AirBNB starts advertising long term rentals. They have already added monthly and a few months sublets. Its only a matter of time for yearly and two year leases, especially if they want to crack NYC.

"only a matter of time"

that song has been playing for a while now. if urbansherpa, nybits, streeteasy, etc et al haven't made much impact, you think airbnb will?

remember retards, we provide a valuable service for the people who count, the owners. renters are fodder..always more coming.

Jayson - made that same mistake on my first NYC apartment and haven't made it since. If you want the apartment bad enough to pay the fee, then go for it. (However, if you play dumb and say that the math doesn't work for you with a full fee and are willing to walk, there is a chance you can get him down to the 10%-12% fee range in my experience). Otherwise, time to move on and find another apartment.

But as others say - there is only 1 fee, so make sure you are not paying a full fee to both the landlord and your broker

>However, if you play dumb and say that the math doesn't work for you with a full fee and are willing to walk, there is a chance you can get him down to the 10%-12% fee range in my experience

You can't be serious. The OP had all the cards here. Putting aside whether this broker engaged in deception, the OP could get less than 10% - ie as basic as 1 month =8.3% with virtually no effort. And if you believe this broker engaged in deception but still foolishly want to pay for nothing, we'll just keep in mind how desperate this individual would have to be to be needing to resort to tricking clients- the broker would probably be thrilled with just anything.

The OP HAS all the cards.

boy, you are all really really stupid. IT IS ONLY A NO FEE APARTMENT IF YOU GO BY YOURSELF!!!! Lots of inventory might be advertised direct by the landlord as "NO FEE" but will have a commission attached to it if shown by an agent. duh! it isn't deceptive. the agent isn't "double dipping".

so hunterburg is of the belief and strongly recommends that the OP should stiff the broker. After all what recourse does the broker have?

a broker taking advantage of a newbie shouldn't be ignored. Instead, the broker should honestly explain ramifications of signing the broker agreement. list their name here and i'll make sure to spread the word.

streakeasy
12 minutes ago
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Member since: Jul 2008
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a broker taking advantage of a newbie shouldn't be ignored. Instead, the broker should honestly explain ramifications of signing the broker agreement. list their name here and i'll make sure to spread the word.

how is showing apartments when someone asks you to "taking advantage of a newbie?" Because streeteasy aggregates lists? Would it also be taking advantage of a newbie if he had looked up the name of the owner in the phone book?

renterjoey
24 minutes ago
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so hunterburg is of the belief and strongly recommends that the OP should stiff the broker. After all what recourse does the broker have?

You can't stiff someone on a business deal who began the relationship by deceiving you into entering into that relationship.

@jim

Why call me a "retard" for absolutely no reason ? Just because I think buy-side brokers (both for buying and renting) bring very little value and contribute to make the market very illiquid due to their fees ?
I am sorry, it is just my opinion. Then you can argue with it like a grown up instead of being insulting... My turn now. Those who matter... No offense but you are probably not in that group... I would be curious to know how you define it but chance is significant I would be part of it. You are in the one of those who were not clever enough to go to university but still wanted to make (a bit of) money or had a few connections... I don't know how it is possible to like your job... Bad hours, having to be nice to nasty clients,... I feel sorry for you, you look very angry with the world.
And to answer your question, I bet that in 5 years more rentals will go without buy-side brokers than with.

you are a retard for interpreting a simple acronym DIY for die. that is why.

ok, check back in five years. i've been posting here for four, people have been predicting the same thing and nothing has changed.

Agree, mad at the entire world. What a miserable weasel, having nothing else better to do but use foul language and shoving his dick in his ass.
The only reason I have ever opened one of his remarks, is because I cannot believe what an idiot loner he is. ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC. All he wants to do is argue with everybody & anybody.
jim_hones10 - get a life!

just_right, you've been here two months or so, what was it that first set you off about Jim_Hores?

His belligerence! Enough said?

Well, welcome to streeteasy.

Thank you! People are looking for advice when coming onto Streeteasy's talk site. They don't need to be reprimanded by a moron, as he is. He takes all his shortcomings (which are a ton) out on innocent people. And, BTW, "retard" is such an insult to human beings that are challenged mentally. If he came out of his lonely celibate world he would know that word is no longer in anyone's vocabulary.

So you are also tourist. Something about the syntax gave it way. why post as someone else?

No, I'm just a human being that doesn't "hate" like you do.

"You can't stiff someone on a business deal who began the relationship by deceiving you into entering into that relationship."--hunterburg

I think you meant to say you are obligated to stiff someone who you think has deceived you.

No. What I didn't say very well at all is that if someone fraudulently induces you (tricks you) into a contract or business relationship, he has no grounds to claim that you haven't upheld your end of the contract.
So, pending hearing more from the OP about the representations made by the broker involved to the OP, the OP may be in a position that he can sign up the "no fee" building and not pay a fee - and that wouldn't be considered stiffing the broker.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/danielle-kaminsky-sarah-weinberg-real-estate-lawsuit-fuels-heated-family-drama-article-1.1424019

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/35692-broker-humanity-award-2013

Or maybe the op is a pos who doesn't want to pay his bills. You know how many people have called my owners directly whom I have exclusive contracts with) to try and circumvent me?

Do you blame them? Who would want to have ant dealings with you.

>jim_hones10
about 1 hour ago
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Or maybe the op is a pos who doesn't want to pay his bills. You know how many people have called my owners directly whom I have exclusive contracts with) to try and circumvent me?

It sounds like the apartment in question was not one where the broker had an exclusive contract.

Granted cunterburg. Just illustrating how many scumbags there are amongst the general population. More in my experience than in brokerage.

Just right: I almost never me et the Tenants anymore. what idiots like you always fail to realize is that for the upper tier in brokerage we deal with the owners of property. Tenants ( and to a lesser extent buyers) are a dime a dozen. I spend my time relationship building on a b to b level. I have staff to do the warm and fuzzys with the tenants.

"we provide a valuable service for the people who count, the owners. renters are fodder..always more coming."

This is very true and it is scary how many people don't realize it. Brokers don't give a shit about you, stop thinking they are your friend or have your best interests in mind. The renter (or buyer) has to take control of their own situation, do the leg work, get educated, and advocate for themselves even if they use a broker. If you are lazy or uninformed you will get taken advantage of. Such is life in NYC or anywhere else in the world.

JuiceMan, what did you think of this comment: http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/36033-rentals-in-harlem

jim_hones10
8 days ago
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Jazzman
about 10 hours ago
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My apartments for rent in Hamilton Heights have rents that are not negotiable. And because I'm getting multiple apps on each apartment I have the luxury of being picky. A tenant who tries to negotiate before he even moves in is much more likely to negotiate every lease renewal - he's also more likely to be a pain in general. So although it's not a deal killer, negotiating is seen by me as a strike against you.

So the old "it doesn't hurt to ask" just isn't true with me in a market like this.

Great to hear from a real property owner sharing his views!

jim_hones10
So you can spend all day on Streeteasy talk? I get where you are coming from, see right thru you. You are a miserable animal. And, I doubt very much that YOU have staff. No one in there right mind would put up with your BS.

just_right, maybe you should start a dedicated thread on the value of rental brokers to renters and see what people's responses are.

just_right
25 minutes ago
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jim_hones10
So you can spend all day on Streeteasy talk? I get where you are coming from, see right thru you. You are a miserable animal. And, I doubt very much that YOU have staff. No one in there right mind would put up with your BS.

that comment shows how little you know about being successful (because you aren't). Of course I have time to send some comments every day. just like i am able to take most fridays and work from home. i guess you are slaving away somewhere, trying to make it in some little cubicle, wondering where/how you fucked up?

ps, your written english really sucks. where are you from?

Brazil?

jim_hones10
Born a loser always a loser. Wow, you can work from home one day a week. Very impressive!
And what secreterial school did you flunk out of?????????????????
There you go degrading, to make yourself feel ?BIG?.

Brooks2, it's good to have you back fighting the good fight.

brooks is taking on the persona of a non-native english speaker?

Not everyone can speak perfect Jersey Shore English.

so Jayson1 never returned to this thread?