Hi all, I just completed a kitchen renovation with a Wolf 30" Gas Range, using the "Island" trim (the lowest - 1 inch or so - trim to the back of the burners, just by the backsplash where the heat from the over spouts from). The first time that I used the over, my entire backsplash was drenched, so I immediately googled "Wolf" and "condensation" and I discovered that I was not alone. This appears... [more]
Hi all,
I just completed a kitchen renovation with a Wolf 30" Gas Range, using the "Island" trim (the lowest - 1 inch or so - trim to the back of the burners, just by the backsplash where the heat from the over spouts from). The first time that I used the over, my entire backsplash was drenched, so I immediately googled "Wolf" and "condensation" and I discovered that I was not alone. This appears to be a problem for some, but not all installations of the Wolf Gas Ranges.
Apparently, during the pre-heating phase the heat from the oven is emitted out of the "Island" trim and hits the backsplash, which is much cooler. Because it's just like a warm front hitting a cool front, it produces "rain," or in the case of a kitchen, condensation on the backsplash. The condensation vaporizes and disappears after about 20 minutes, because at the 20 minute mark, the backsplash has heated up. However, until that point, my (marble) backsplash had gotten so wet, that water was dripping down the wall.
I called Wolf/SubZero - and they told me that this "can" happen in some installations - and that it could depend on the material of the backsplash, but several folks there couldn't advise whether marble or glass or quartz or stainless steel was best. They simply advised me to make an appointment with their authorized technical vendor in the NYC area, which I did. The technicians came over - and I told them that they would need to wait 10 to 20 minutes to see what happens - and they said that wasn't necessary because they "see this all the time." They recommended that I install the 5" trim that would push the hot air from the oven a little forward, so that it wouldn't hit the backsplash and create the condensation. Wolf will supply it at no charge.
No one is guaranteeing that it will solve the problem, but I suspect that it will. I'm annoyed to use the 5" trim for aesthetic reasons, but if it resolves the problem, I'm OK with it. But I'm annoyed because, when I googled "Viking" and "condensation," there were really no hits, so I suspect that this is not a problem with Viking. I was agnostic when choosing between buying a Wolf or a Viking range - and had I known of this issue with Wolf, I would have easily chosen Viking.
Before I authorize Wolf to proceed with the 5" trim, I wanted to see if anyone here has had the same experience and how they handled it, including whether the 5" trim resolved the problem. (FYI, I'm using the Viking Professional over-the-range microwave which of course doesn't have as powerful an exhaust as a hood, but I've been told that a more powerful hood would not help.)
Many thanks for your input.
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Response by Flutistic
about 11 years ago
Posts: 516
Member since: Apr 2007
All ranges I have ever seen create condensation as you describe. The products of combustion are carbon dioxide and water. The more combustion, the more byproducts.
Wolf ranges are big suckers. My understanding is that Wolfs need to be installed with a strong exhaust hood. Whoever told you a hood wouldn't help I think could, could, be wrong, because it only makes sense that if the water vapor is quickly whisked away, it won't be there to condense on your marble.
Marble is particularly prone to condensation. If you touch various surfaces around your home, you will find some feel colder than others, even though they are all supposedly at room temperature. That's because of heat transfer properties in the material. Marble always feels cold.
So I think what you have here is an unfortunate combination of big range, insufficient exhaust, and "cold" marble. I would definitely try that trim, and if that didn't work, I would change the backsplash (I know, perish the thought).
But I think the trim will help. This is a prime example how things can go haywire during renovation, there's always a risk of something like this.....but at least it's what we call around our house, "rich people's problems."
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Response by flarf
about 11 years ago
Posts: 515
Member since: Jan 2011
I have a Bluestar range with island trim and also get condensate on the backsplash, which in my case is stainless steel behind the range.
This happens even in setups with high-power exhaust hoods. You need to change the direction of the air to fix the issue, and the 5" trim should do that.
It really doesn't bother me... I suppose some condensate may drip down behind the range, but it should dry quickly as the oven radiates plenty of heat and there's air circulating under the range itself since it's up on legs.
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Response by FormerRenter
about 11 years ago
Posts: 87
Member since: Dec 2010
Flutistic and Flarf, many thanks for your thoughtful responses. Indeed (not that I'm rich - unfortunately, I'm not!), but it is something of a "rich person's problem," so very true that a little perspective on my part would help! Nonetheless, I would like to select the option that will resolve this issue. I suspect re-directing the hot air flow with the 5" trim will go a long way. I would love to hear from someone on Streeteasy who has the 5" trim. My gut tells me that the Viking microwave exhaust, which at 300 CFM puts out about 50% of what a powerful hood would put out, isn't the problem - because it's the 10 or 15 minutes during the pre-heat phase when the water collects - and I don't think that the a more powerful exhaust would get enough of a "jump" on the situation while the backsplash surface is heating up. Thanks again.
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Response by gothamsboro
about 11 years ago
Posts: 536
Member since: Sep 2013
Don't you wish you were a renter again? Then you wouldn't have to deal with these horrible, horrible things. Quick, sell now, this way you can also avoid tipping the doorman.
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Response by sp21
about 11 years ago
Posts: 99
Member since: Feb 2013
I have a Wolf R304 30" range and oven. It has the 5" trim kit. It does push the air forward a bit because it's angled over the range. I have a white glass backspash (wide subway tiles) and have never noticed condensation. I also have a recirculating fan above it. For what it's worth my impression is that, by reputation, Wolf is more reliable than Viking.
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Response by FormerRenter
about 11 years ago
Posts: 87
Member since: Dec 2010
Many thanks, sp21. That's great news. I was hoping to have some empirical evidence that the 5" trim prevents condensation. Of course, I've been dealing with renovation issues on this project long enough to recognize that it ain't over 'til it's over - so we'll see if the 5" trim works in my particular application. But I have 2 questions: when you say that you have a "recirculating fan" do you mean that you have a traditional over hood (with a powerful exhaust)? (Again, my thought is that the forward angle of the trim is probably the most important factor). And, also, does pushing the hot air forward make your kitchen noticeably, if not uncomfortably, warm? Really appreciate your input.
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Response by sp21
about 11 years ago
Posts: 99
Member since: Feb 2013
FormerRenter, I also have a Viking microwave with 300 CFM (I got the convection microwave which is one of the greatest inventions ever, since the oven feature is extremely useful). I actually had a recirculating hood before the renovation and removed it for the convenience of having the microwave there. They told me that I need a Pro rated microwave so it doesn't melt, and I put it several inches higher than normal.
The kitchen gets hot when I use the stove or oven. It is a really powerful machine. I'm not sure if the trim matters that much for the heat aspect, since the heat is being produced and has to go somewhere, but I can see that it might push the air a little more "in your face" and cause it to more uncomfortable. Nevertheless it sounds like you are going to have to use the 5" trim and hopefully you enjoy it!
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Response by fieldschester
about 11 years ago
Posts: 3525
Member since: Jul 2013
first world problem. But so is Ebola now. Welcome to NYC, Ebama and de Blasio will take care of us.
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Response by Edwinyc
about 11 years ago
Posts: 58
Member since: Apr 2014
As for the fieldchsester comment:
It's interesting how one can go to sleep feeling a little feverish and then wake up with a 103 degree temp and ebola.
facemasks and protective gloves for police only going to "secure" the apartment of a person found to have ebola?
All they were required to do was to attach the crime-scene yellow tape over his apartment door. They didn't need to have intimate contact with the door or even to touch it.
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Response by Edwinyc
about 11 years ago
Posts: 58
Member since: Apr 2014
"fieldschester"
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Response by alanhart
about 11 years ago
Posts: 12397
Member since: Feb 2007
"trUth"
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Response by fieldschester
about 11 years ago
Posts: 3525
Member since: Jul 2013
alan, what do you think about the ebola?
which is worse?: ebola, isis, noerdlinger, Rubenstein, c0lumbiac0unty?
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Response by FormerRenter
about 11 years ago
Posts: 87
Member since: Dec 2010
Flutistic, Flarf and sp21, many thanks for your help. I think that my best bet will be to try the 5" trim. I will follow up with Wolf/Subzero to complain that this issue is nowhere to be found in their materials - and certainly should be disclosed. According to the 3 or 4 folks that I spoke to there, they are aware of it. I'll avoid calling it a "design defect," given that they label it an "island" trim, at a minimum they should advise purchasers or dealer that if the installation is against a wall, the "Island" trim may have issues. If you look at the website, all of their marketing photos with the range against a wall use the "Island" trim. And certainly if they're aware of the issue, it would be helpful if they could advise of which backsplash materials will help mitigate the issue (I might not have cared had the condensation appeared on glass, rather than marble, tiles). I'll update after the 5" trim goes in. Thanks again. This board (when used appropriately) can be a great help.
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Response by NextEra
about 11 years ago
Posts: 114
Member since: Jun 2008
I hope my comment isn't too late to be useful. I have a Wolf 30" gas range with the 5" riser trim. I've had it for a year and I bought it with the 5" trim to begin with. I do, indeed, see some condensation when I turn on the oven which was not the case with the Dacor that my Wolf replaced. While most of my kitchen backsplash is honed marble to match my counter tops, due to the fact that splatters and grease are unfriendly to honed marble, I decided to put a stack of highly polished ceramic tile behind my new range (it's a vertical stack of large 30" wide Porcelanosa tiles in a shade of white that matches the white of the carrara marble). I've absolutely noticed the moisture, but it's slight and around the time when the oven comes to full temperature, it dissipates. Also, it never gathers so much that the moisture drips down. It just evaporates. And in far less time than 20 minutes.
I cook dinner almost every night, bake and roast, and cook often for friends on weekends and I LOVE this range. The oven is superb and steady, the broiler is really powerful yet still even, and the burners can be very fine-tuned due to the lower simmer settings.
One tip I was given and I pass it along to you: while your range is still under its service warranty, don't hesitate to have the service guys come and fine-tune the range. I mean, after all -- you've bought a very powerful and elegant machine. Apparently the computer board that is in this new model has had some problems so I already had it replaced after the broiler had two episodes of shutting off on its own; my service guy said it was an early sign that I'd have to replace the board so we did it before there was a bigger problem. I also had the service guy give me tips on using and cleaning the burners (he told me that if you call the Wolf service 800 number they can email you a document with tips and product recommendations for cleaning; I called and the document is really helpful). Also, the thin, removable trim strips that are between the range top and the stainless collar can discolor to a slightly dark red-purple color (this happened to me after I spent a Saturday afternoon canning tomatoes and had one of the burners on for about an hour); Wolf knows about this problem and said they are working on it. If it happens to you, you should call the 800 number and see if they have replacement pieces yet.
Mostly you should use the range often and happily. Bake a pie, broil a steak, roast some carrots, saute some mushrooms. I found it helped me be a better cook because you get so much more control than with other stoves. I hope it does the same for you.
As for how the 5" trim looks, I now like it better than island trim. The range is so darn gorgeous and performs so well that you'll get used to it having a bit of a higher back. Good luck with it and use it often!
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Response by FormerRenter
about 11 years ago
Posts: 87
Member since: Dec 2010
Wow, NextEra, thank you so much for writing - and for such helpful tips. Not too late at all, as I'm a couple of weeks away from the installation of the 5" trim. It seems that it's not absolutely universal that these powerful ranges all produce condensation. So far in this thread, you've experienced it but sp21 hasn't, although my gut tells me that more folks will have condensation. If I still have condensation after installation of the 5" trim, I won't mind if it dissipates before it drips down behind the range. And I agree that the Wolf range really is a beautiful machine. I also have the French Door Subzero which is also pretty stunning, so I don't think that the beauty will be diminished by the 5" trim. I'm much more concerned with issues of function and maintenance now that I've (mostly) survived a long and painful renovation. Thanks again; it was very kind of you to take the time to provide all that info.
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Response by gothamsboro
about 11 years ago
Posts: 536
Member since: Sep 2013
I hope this problem, like Ebola, is now behind us.
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All ranges I have ever seen create condensation as you describe. The products of combustion are carbon dioxide and water. The more combustion, the more byproducts.
Wolf ranges are big suckers. My understanding is that Wolfs need to be installed with a strong exhaust hood. Whoever told you a hood wouldn't help I think could, could, be wrong, because it only makes sense that if the water vapor is quickly whisked away, it won't be there to condense on your marble.
Marble is particularly prone to condensation. If you touch various surfaces around your home, you will find some feel colder than others, even though they are all supposedly at room temperature. That's because of heat transfer properties in the material. Marble always feels cold.
So I think what you have here is an unfortunate combination of big range, insufficient exhaust, and "cold" marble. I would definitely try that trim, and if that didn't work, I would change the backsplash (I know, perish the thought).
But I think the trim will help. This is a prime example how things can go haywire during renovation, there's always a risk of something like this.....but at least it's what we call around our house, "rich people's problems."
I have a Bluestar range with island trim and also get condensate on the backsplash, which in my case is stainless steel behind the range.
This happens even in setups with high-power exhaust hoods. You need to change the direction of the air to fix the issue, and the 5" trim should do that.
It really doesn't bother me... I suppose some condensate may drip down behind the range, but it should dry quickly as the oven radiates plenty of heat and there's air circulating under the range itself since it's up on legs.
Flutistic and Flarf, many thanks for your thoughtful responses. Indeed (not that I'm rich - unfortunately, I'm not!), but it is something of a "rich person's problem," so very true that a little perspective on my part would help! Nonetheless, I would like to select the option that will resolve this issue. I suspect re-directing the hot air flow with the 5" trim will go a long way. I would love to hear from someone on Streeteasy who has the 5" trim. My gut tells me that the Viking microwave exhaust, which at 300 CFM puts out about 50% of what a powerful hood would put out, isn't the problem - because it's the 10 or 15 minutes during the pre-heat phase when the water collects - and I don't think that the a more powerful exhaust would get enough of a "jump" on the situation while the backsplash surface is heating up. Thanks again.
Don't you wish you were a renter again? Then you wouldn't have to deal with these horrible, horrible things. Quick, sell now, this way you can also avoid tipping the doorman.
I have a Wolf R304 30" range and oven. It has the 5" trim kit. It does push the air forward a bit because it's angled over the range. I have a white glass backspash (wide subway tiles) and have never noticed condensation. I also have a recirculating fan above it. For what it's worth my impression is that, by reputation, Wolf is more reliable than Viking.
Many thanks, sp21. That's great news. I was hoping to have some empirical evidence that the 5" trim prevents condensation. Of course, I've been dealing with renovation issues on this project long enough to recognize that it ain't over 'til it's over - so we'll see if the 5" trim works in my particular application. But I have 2 questions: when you say that you have a "recirculating fan" do you mean that you have a traditional over hood (with a powerful exhaust)? (Again, my thought is that the forward angle of the trim is probably the most important factor). And, also, does pushing the hot air forward make your kitchen noticeably, if not uncomfortably, warm? Really appreciate your input.
FormerRenter, I also have a Viking microwave with 300 CFM (I got the convection microwave which is one of the greatest inventions ever, since the oven feature is extremely useful). I actually had a recirculating hood before the renovation and removed it for the convenience of having the microwave there. They told me that I need a Pro rated microwave so it doesn't melt, and I put it several inches higher than normal.
The kitchen gets hot when I use the stove or oven. It is a really powerful machine. I'm not sure if the trim matters that much for the heat aspect, since the heat is being produced and has to go somewhere, but I can see that it might push the air a little more "in your face" and cause it to more uncomfortable. Nevertheless it sounds like you are going to have to use the 5" trim and hopefully you enjoy it!
first world problem. But so is Ebola now. Welcome to NYC, Ebama and de Blasio will take care of us.
As for the fieldchsester comment:
It's interesting how one can go to sleep feeling a little feverish and then wake up with a 103 degree temp and ebola.
facemasks and protective gloves for police only going to "secure" the apartment of a person found to have ebola?
All they were required to do was to attach the crime-scene yellow tape over his apartment door. They didn't need to have intimate contact with the door or even to touch it.
"fieldschester"
"trUth"
alan, what do you think about the ebola?
which is worse?: ebola, isis, noerdlinger, Rubenstein, c0lumbiac0unty?
Flutistic, Flarf and sp21, many thanks for your help. I think that my best bet will be to try the 5" trim. I will follow up with Wolf/Subzero to complain that this issue is nowhere to be found in their materials - and certainly should be disclosed. According to the 3 or 4 folks that I spoke to there, they are aware of it. I'll avoid calling it a "design defect," given that they label it an "island" trim, at a minimum they should advise purchasers or dealer that if the installation is against a wall, the "Island" trim may have issues. If you look at the website, all of their marketing photos with the range against a wall use the "Island" trim. And certainly if they're aware of the issue, it would be helpful if they could advise of which backsplash materials will help mitigate the issue (I might not have cared had the condensation appeared on glass, rather than marble, tiles). I'll update after the 5" trim goes in. Thanks again. This board (when used appropriately) can be a great help.
I hope my comment isn't too late to be useful. I have a Wolf 30" gas range with the 5" riser trim. I've had it for a year and I bought it with the 5" trim to begin with. I do, indeed, see some condensation when I turn on the oven which was not the case with the Dacor that my Wolf replaced. While most of my kitchen backsplash is honed marble to match my counter tops, due to the fact that splatters and grease are unfriendly to honed marble, I decided to put a stack of highly polished ceramic tile behind my new range (it's a vertical stack of large 30" wide Porcelanosa tiles in a shade of white that matches the white of the carrara marble). I've absolutely noticed the moisture, but it's slight and around the time when the oven comes to full temperature, it dissipates. Also, it never gathers so much that the moisture drips down. It just evaporates. And in far less time than 20 minutes.
I cook dinner almost every night, bake and roast, and cook often for friends on weekends and I LOVE this range. The oven is superb and steady, the broiler is really powerful yet still even, and the burners can be very fine-tuned due to the lower simmer settings.
One tip I was given and I pass it along to you: while your range is still under its service warranty, don't hesitate to have the service guys come and fine-tune the range. I mean, after all -- you've bought a very powerful and elegant machine. Apparently the computer board that is in this new model has had some problems so I already had it replaced after the broiler had two episodes of shutting off on its own; my service guy said it was an early sign that I'd have to replace the board so we did it before there was a bigger problem. I also had the service guy give me tips on using and cleaning the burners (he told me that if you call the Wolf service 800 number they can email you a document with tips and product recommendations for cleaning; I called and the document is really helpful). Also, the thin, removable trim strips that are between the range top and the stainless collar can discolor to a slightly dark red-purple color (this happened to me after I spent a Saturday afternoon canning tomatoes and had one of the burners on for about an hour); Wolf knows about this problem and said they are working on it. If it happens to you, you should call the 800 number and see if they have replacement pieces yet.
Mostly you should use the range often and happily. Bake a pie, broil a steak, roast some carrots, saute some mushrooms. I found it helped me be a better cook because you get so much more control than with other stoves. I hope it does the same for you.
As for how the 5" trim looks, I now like it better than island trim. The range is so darn gorgeous and performs so well that you'll get used to it having a bit of a higher back. Good luck with it and use it often!
Wow, NextEra, thank you so much for writing - and for such helpful tips. Not too late at all, as I'm a couple of weeks away from the installation of the 5" trim. It seems that it's not absolutely universal that these powerful ranges all produce condensation. So far in this thread, you've experienced it but sp21 hasn't, although my gut tells me that more folks will have condensation. If I still have condensation after installation of the 5" trim, I won't mind if it dissipates before it drips down behind the range. And I agree that the Wolf range really is a beautiful machine. I also have the French Door Subzero which is also pretty stunning, so I don't think that the beauty will be diminished by the 5" trim. I'm much more concerned with issues of function and maintenance now that I've (mostly) survived a long and painful renovation. Thanks again; it was very kind of you to take the time to provide all that info.
I hope this problem, like Ebola, is now behind us.
FYI, to those who were interested, Noerdlinger is out http://observer.com/2014/11/al-sharpton-fully-behind-bill-de-blasio-aides-leave-of-absence/
I recently installed a Cambria backsplash with a 36" Viking range. It is like a waterfall when I turn the stove on.