How We Got A Deal Buying In Brooklyn w/o Broker
Started by rachel27
about 10 years ago
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Member since: Sep 2014
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I wanted to write this post because my partner and I were novices who came into the home-buying process knowing nothing about it. Though we made a few mistakes (detailed below) in the end we got an excellent 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment in Park Slope less than half a block from Grand Army Plaza for more than $100k less than the identical apartment a few floors up. We did it all without a... [more]
I wanted to write this post because my partner and I were novices who came into the home-buying process knowing nothing about it. Though we made a few mistakes (detailed below) in the end we got an excellent 750 square foot one-bedroom apartment in Park Slope less than half a block from Grand Army Plaza for more than $100k less than the identical apartment a few floors up. We did it all without a buyer’s broker, so I thought our relatively successful experience might be of some help to people out there. Here are our key pieces of advice: Get to Know the Market We started looking at apartments in Fall 2014. Our budget for a one bedroom was about 550K and even when we started the search it was tough to find good one-bedrooms in this price range. We wanted a large one-bedroom with enough space for a potential small child’s bedroom but didn’t care about fancy amenities like new appliances, etc. For a few weekends, we would go to every open house in our neighborhood and surrounding neighborhoods. It was pretty grueling and we saw some pretty terrible places we still joke about now. It really is astounding the miniscule, average spaces that can be sold for half of a million dollars in New York. Seeing places in other neighborhoods helped us realize we wanted to stay in Park Slope, where we were renting, instead of moving to another area. After a certain point, we realized what to expect from an apartment by looking at the online listing and decoding the real-estate speak. For instance, if it said “cozy” or “quaint” that meant it was too small. At this point, we would only go to open houses that were generally apartments of a size/location that we would potentially want to live in. Anyone with half of a brain can do the same things that a buyer’s broker will do for you, which is basically pulling listing from the internet for you. We also found nearly every real-estate professional we met to be pretty insufferable. And we also knew that this could give us an edge over buyers w/ brokers, since the sellers’ broker would get a bigger fee with us. I did what a broker does--and more--by using the internet. I set Zillow and StreetEasy alerts for apartments in our price range in various neighborhoods. Another thing I did that I found to be helpful was I pulled the historical sales for one bedrooms within the last year in Park Slope and put them in an excel spreadsheet. I could see which parts of the neighborhood were discounted to others and which random amenities made an apartment go for more. It also gave me hope that there were good apartments out there in our price range! Try to Get the “Ugly” Discount In December, we went to an open house that looked very large on the floor plan of the initial listing. When I arrived, I saw the most horrendously decorated home I have ever seen in my life. Words cannot describe the poor taste in decor these people had. For instance, The bedroom had a large filing cabinet in it and a single, inexplicable magenta accent wall. And yet as repulsive as it was, the rational part of me realized that the apartment was actually huge and had a significant dining nook that could easily be a kid’s room. The walls were sturdy and there was nice molding around the doors and windows. The wood floors were actually beautiful. There was a huge walk-in closet. The one drawback was that it didn’t have any natural light. We talked it over and decided to make a bid. One compelling factor was that the same exact apartment right above it had come up on my spreadsheet since it had recently sold and I had loved it as it was decorated by interior designers. It gave me hope that this place could be beautiful too. In the end, we got a between a $50,000 and $100,000 discount simply because the place looked awful during an open house due to its paint colors and furniture. Be Aggressive Then I got a call from the broker saying the apartment went off the market as the apartment the sellers were buying fell through. As the holidays and early January dragged on, we found ourselves talking about the apartment (“Dark apartment” we affectionately called it) all of the time and realizing that nothing else we were seeing on the market compared or would compare. I would politely bother the buyer’s broker about when the apartment was coming back on the market as much as was humanly possible without making him hate me. That worked because he gave me a heads up when it was coming back to the market--and we had a bid prepared to go. We were even aggressive at the open house--we wrote something like “bid in” on the sign-in sheet so people would know that someone was seriously prepared to take the apartment. Be Prepared For What Comes After You Bid This was one of the major places where we messed up. First, the seller’s broker basically called up trying to extort more money from us twice. This was the one situation where having a broker of our own may have helped. The seller’s broker would call up and make very vague remarks about other bids but wouldn’t share the specifics of them with us. We’d have to go up a few thousand bucks each time to get the apartment”. After you are selected as the preferred buyer, stuff can move very fast. We weren’t really prepared for that and didn’t have a lawyer lined up. We literally had to find one on Yelp which was fine in the sense that she wasn’t a crook and did the basic due diligence but not fine in the sense that she didn’t really go above and beyond on a few key things. Read the Fine Print The absolute biggest mistake that we made was that we didn’t pay close attention to the closing date specified on our contract. It was for a date in June, though the sellers said that they would likely be able to close before then (we went into contract in March). And yet, as time went on, little things kept coming up that prevented them from closing. Under New York law, they have 30 days AFTER the date on the contract to really close, so the drop-dead date was in July. Believe it or not, the sellers wound up dragging the whole thing out until the absolute final day in July that they were allowed under the contract. The husband was literally dragging his stuff out of the apartment in garbage bags when we arrived for our final walk-through. This was really inconvenient for us, since we were renters with a lease ending in June. If we had really been aware of the possibility this could happen, we would have insisted on a closing date in early May. So get a good lawyer lined up in advance and pay attention to the date on the contract! Brooklyn Co-Op Boards Accept Everyone. That’s my understanding based on the super easy interview process and conversations with others (including some on Brooklyn co-op boards). I hope this helps someone a little bit! [less]
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Thanks for sharing! We've been searching for a while. This is very helpful.
Keep in mind though, most sellers already retained a broker, so unless you happen to find a sell by owner property (which does happen but seems to be rare in the city), it doesn't give you that big of an edge over other buyers. Yeah, there's a possibility the selling broker will offer to give the seller a discount on the commission if they accept your offer since they're getting both sides of it, but that's about it.
Working with a broker as a buyer does have some benefits. If you're a first time buyer, they can answer basic questions, like letting you know you need to have a lawyer lined up, you can ask them about things like timelines for getting a mortgage, questions about contingencies on the contract, etc. And the broker will be responsible for setting up appointments to see places you want to see, which can actually be a pain in the ass. You would THINK that the selling broker has a vested interest in showing the place to possible buyers, but there's plenty of shitty brokers out there who don't answer the phone, take forever to respond to messages/voicemails (if they respond at all), or are difficult to work with in general.
That said, you don't absolutely need a broker, and if you do get one, make sure you get a good one. If you get a broker who doesn't answer messages, never seems to be available, or no show/no calls an appointment then drop them immediately (especially that last one, hugely unprofessional for a broker to pull that kind of crap).
Interesting post.
Prior to selling an apartment, I would have said expressing your interest in the apartment -- e.g., "bid in" -- was not a good thing. Now that I've sold, my perspective has changed because of New York's odd contracting process, where you don't really have a "deal" for at least 5-7 days. We had one offer, which we were ready to accept, pull out unexpectedly after writing an over-the-top "sell your apartment to meeeeee" love letter. I'm glad that he at least had the decency to pull out. My neighbor had a buyer literally vanish. Verbal acceptance. Contract out. Neither the buyer nor the lawyer ever returned messages again.
We had another offer from someone who kept asking to see the apartment again, even after submitting a bid. The experience with the first guy pulling out made us not even want to deal with anyone who could possibly be flaky. The buyer's likelihood to return a contract to us, measured by consistent and sometimes aggressive enthusiasm, was absolutely a factor in our decision-making.
A dual-agent broker can be better equipped to sniff out potential flakiness or uncertainty. When we bought, the contract took an extraordinarily long time due to a bad lawyer (that the broker recommended). Because the broker was dealing with us directly and hearing our frustrations with this slow and nonresponsive lawyer, he knew everything was OK. As a seller in a two-broker transaction, if the contract had taken as long as it did when I was a buyer, I'd have been telling my broker to go to a backup offer because I wouldn't have believed anything a buyer's broker said.
hijack -- Lad sorry you lost your first buyer, but IME, if a party to a deal is going to flake, they're going to flake, whether they're a client or a customer. I've had my buyer clients make offers and then wander off, even after acceptance, and I've been a listing broker with unrepresented buyers who "changed their mind" (the last time it happened, their lawyer was like "what do you mean they pulled out? Last time we talked they were fine.") Much as we brokers like to tout our screening abilities, it's not always predictable -- and moreover, it's rarely reversible --there's no level of sales that is going to make someone with serious qualms stay the course, especially at these price points.
ali r.
{downtown broker}
Completely agree that people who will flake will end up flaking regardless of who the broker is. And that there's no changing their minds once they flake.
In NYC, there is the added dimension of "is this person submitting a bid a serious or flaky" that you don't have in other places, where the buyer submits a standard contract and deposit with the offer. I didn't fully appreciate that until I sold.
In the end, the guy who flaked was not a big deal for me. We had other, equally good offers. This guy's profile was a little better, and we would have sold to him to minimize board rejection risk from 2% to 1%. It just had me wondering who these people were submitted offers and then vanished, and what their brokers thought of them. I couldn't believe it when it happened to my neighbor, and then when it happened to me -- on an offer that was impeccably put together and presented -- it made me wonder if it was more common than I thought. Does the frenzied nature of NYC real estate convince buyers they need to act NOW NOW NOW or they'll lose the apartment, and then they change their minds after a cooling-off period?
We had a second offer that I thought was headed down the same path, and I told the broker not to go back to this offer when we went to best and final. The behavior was so strange that I wouldn't have believed any offer was real.
Ali, what did you do with your buyers who flaked? Did you work with them again? Did they eventually buy anything? Curious if "once a flake, always a flake," and how much of this behavior brokers will tolerate.
Sometimes buyers do "flake" however there can be valid reasons for this.We are always transparent with the sell side, however we never lose sight of the fact we are representing the buyers best interest. Quite frankly when we have frenzied clients, we calmly explain there is no real reason to rush into anything here. Offers by the nature of the NYC beast have no real teeth, everything is up in the air until both parties sign and the check is deposited. Some times it is more strategic to wait..unless maybe you are all cash and can use that as leverage. Of course our model adds both value and expertise to the process. We have yet to have anyone with an accepted offer just disappear, sorry about that Ali! When I sense someone is waffling I always step up to remind them if they are bailing, it's not the end of the world, let's just let everyone know..
Keith Burkhardt
The Burkhardt Group
Lad, buyer who flaked did buy something else, still using me as buyer's broker. Ended up with something bigger ... I think part of the issue was buyer nervous about the NYC market, and had to make two cuts at the apple to get comfortable with the higher price point he/she ended up at. As Keith said, it makes sense to not rush, but sometimes clients feel pressure to get "settled" -- this particular buyer was a "relo" and in a less-than-ideal short-term rental situation -- and you just try to roll with that.
Last buyers who disappeared when I was on the sell-side bought something else and then I sold the apartment to another set of buyers for a higher price, so that one worked out for everybody. It's nail-biting when you're in it though.
HI Keith!