acris

co-ops aren't real property, so there is no RETT paid on a co-op sale.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Not sure how often they are updated ie. would a lien from 3 weeks ago be up yet. Not sure.
But in general, they seem pretty accurate. An amazing resource to have on-line actually.

How do you find the actual sale price for a coop that sold in 2008? The sale price is not listed on the UCC-1. Do you have to wait for the 2008 year-end report to come out?

Front_porch wrote:
Coops aren't real property...

You got that right.
But Coops do pay both NYC transfer tax and NYS transfer tax. In addition to that there is also the "stock transfer Tax" and "flip tax" that coops have the exclusive privilege of paying. If you visit ACRIS you will see that coop filings use the terms NYS RETT and NYC RPTT.

==========================
kgg wrote:
Not sure how often they are updated...

The UCC-1 and transfer documents are usually filed with the city at about the same time. Not to be confused with the nyc.gov Rolling Sales Update which is only updated periodically. I know for fact that the Rolling Sales Update is not 100% accurate.
The specific example that I'm referring to is about a year old.

Amity95Amity95 wrote:
How do you find the actual sale price for a coop that sold in 2008?...
That's what I'm talkin bout.
Usually the transfer is filed at about the same time and does includes the sales price. Sometimes, however, that is not the case.
I'm trying to figure out why sometimes the transfer docs are listed while other times they're not.
Any ideas anyone?

Thanks andwin, I stand corrected, it's the mortgage recording tax co-ops don't pay.

The "flip tax" however is not a tax but a fee imposed by the co-op corporation.

This article might provide more detail:

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/secret-plan-feared-to-tax-mortgages-on-co-op-homes/37103/

ali r.
{downtown broker}

Really...?

No one has any sort of guess why a UCC-1 would be filed but no transfer taxes?

Thanks for the article front_porch... Very interesting.

a

Has anyone figured out how to find out an actual sales price if an UCC-1 is filed on a coop but no RPTT and RETT? I am pretty sure that this is a case of the broker (and likely buyer) intentionally trying to block transparency in the sales process, as this apartment sold for significantly less than the listing price yet the broker did everything possible to manipulate the Streeteasy listing so it looks like it sold for the listing price. My understanding is that the buyer may try to flip the property....

Of course, this may be something that only brokers know how to do, and thus they are unwilling to share their dirty trade secrets...

UCC-1s do not necessarily have anything to do with sales. Every time an owner REFINANCES a co-op that he ALREADY owns, the bank files a UCC-1. UCC-1s have everything to do with the lending of money, and no direct correlation to the sale of an apartment. Thus, you will very often see UCC1s filed when no sale has taken place.

In addition - and this is really weird/confusing, but true - a prospective borrower or purchaser need only INITIATE the process of borrowing money, and a UCC-1 will automatically be filed. What happens if that borrower or purchaser ended up NOT taking the loan? Theoretically, the bank should withdraw the UCC-1, or at the very least, issue a UCC-3 terminating the UCC-1. But VERY often, they will leave the UCC-1 languishing on the public record. Thus, there is a record of money borrowed...on an apartment on which no money was ever actually lent.

Here's a tip I use at times for locating the sale price of a unit: If you can find the current owner (see building directory in lobby), search that person's NAME in ACRIS. See what docs come up as to the current unit, where that person lived before, and what else they currently own. The search results often cough out filings with the other parties' names involved in the transactions. You can search those parties too. The result is that you can often find out lots about prices paid, the current unit owner's situation (just bought a new place and under some possible duress to sell the listed property??? good leverage for negotiations; divorced? inherited the property? etc.). All can only help you in negotiations. You just have to get creative with ACRIS. During open houses, see if there is a piece of mail or magazine with address label laying around that tips you off to the current owner's name. That is another way to use ACRIS to find out more info. I wouldn't open drawers or anything, but what is in plain view is fair game I say. In one place I remember closet doors being opened with luggage sitting there and name tags on full display. Be creative.

SomeonewhoKnows, kylewest, thank you so much for your insights. I do know for sure that the property in question was sold and closed in April 2008 - this was not a refinance situation. That said, a UCC-1 was filed but no RPTT or RETT (and thus no sales price on record). I am pretty sure that the buyer took out a loan for this property, and either the broker and/or buyer want to obscure the final sales price (it is significantly less than the last listed price on streeteasy). How is the broker/buyer able to prevent the sales price from showing up on ACRIS? Is this even legal? I know the names of the previous owner (i.e., seller) and the current owner (i.e., buyer), and I have done various searches on ACRIS to no avail. Furthermore, the previous sales price from 2004 have since been deleted from ACRIS (and the NY Times search engine, which is another way to find coop sales prices), even though an ACRIS representative said they never delete documents. Again, I am fairly certain this is intentional on the part of the broker and buyer, as I believe they intend to eliminate transparency on this specific transaction. Any thoughts or advice on how to find the sales price and how they are able to do this?

I think what Amity95 is inquiring about (and what I inquired about) is a known closing which only shows UCC-1 but no TAX info on ACRIS. I know the city & state are going to get there cut so where are the records?

I've seen several "sales" which had UCC-1 filings but no tax filings.

I've also seen at least one building which has been able to keep itself completely off the Rolling Sales Report for Manhattan. And you can't find the building anywhere on ACRIS unless you already know the Lot & Block #s.

No matter what angle you take - if a sale has closed there should be TAX info filed with ACRIS and then IF the unit was financed a UCC-1. But there is no getting around filing the taxes... unless, there were none paid. Or if someone has enough influence to be excluded from ACRIS. I can't imagine ACRIS randomly lists some transactions but not others.

I always find it amusing that here on this "Real Estate" forum there are so many intelligent comments and suggestions for predicting the National economy, Wall Street and broad RE trends. But as soon as someone asks a question about the underpinnings of the actual Real Estate community everyone seems to laps into some sort of collective comma. Some even trying to make excuses for obvious inconsistencies.

...just sayin

Brokers don't file into ACRIS. We use it just as you all do, to try to trace the history of a property or person (and you can see from my mistake above that many of us find it pretty confusing as well).

But when a filing is not made, it's not the agent's fault -- my guess would be that that's something that the title company typically does, or possibly the buyer/seller attorneys.

One tip that I can give you is that I'm not entirely sure that the block and lot numbers on a building are actually unique -- so if you can't finding an apartment using that block and lot numbers that you have, try again.

One possibility is to use just the Block number and to use a Lot of 0000 -- which will admittedly generate too much data and leave you the tedious job of sorting through it.

Or, you can try to get Block and Lot another way. Brokers have Block and Lot in our system for many properties, so if you want to ping me with an address I'm happy to try to back it out for you.

If you don't want to talk to a broker, you can usually get a Block and Lot by working backwards through www.propertyshark.com.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

The block and lot numbers are easily accessible in ACRIS.

From the main ACRIS page click link "Find addresses and parcels" the on the next screen enter borough, street number, street name and unit number and click button "Find BBL". After the search runs you will see the block & lot numbers in gray color in the set of boxes below where you entered the info. Then go back to the main page to search by block & lot numbers.

If the seller's attorney did not record the sale with the city, then the sales information will be missing from ACRIS. The sellers get fined for a late filing, but I do know this happens.

Again, thanks to andwin, front_portch, and Valldejuli for their responses. I have the block and lot numbers, seller's and buyer's names, closing date, etc. If a UCC-1 was filed but no RPTT or RETT tax info - and thus no actual sales price info - does this mean that no sales tax was paid? How is it possible for the seller's attorney not to record the sale with the city? Is this legal, and is it possible to force the attorney to record the sale with the city? If the UCC-1 was filed does this constitute recording the sale? How is it possible for someone to prevent their sales price from being listed in ACRIS?

front_porch, if I emailed you the BBL, seller's/buyer's names, closing date, UCC-1, etc would you be able to find the sales price?

Amity, my guess is I'm not any better at this stuff than you are, but I can try.

Email me at ali [at] dgneary [dot] com and put "Streeteasy" in the subject line so I know it's not spam.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

>How is it possible for the seller's attorney not to record the sale with the city?

It is not legal to do so, but a recording can be delayed because the seller's attorney is a moron, forgets to file or loses the paperwork. Hefty fines start to accrue to the seller when a filing is delayed, I think more than 30 days after closing.