Yorkville vs. UWS

Check out LIC, some people say it's better than the east side.

You should check out the 100's and 110's along Riverside Drive...so peaceful and more bang for your buck than 70's and 80's. The area is rapidly improving and with Columbia buying up the area, prices should outperform at the very least.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/229084-coop-600-west-111th-street-morningside-heights-manhattan

This is a nice building and I think it has a roof deck as well.

UWS pros: I think the UWS has more character, also a greater selection of food markets (Zabar's, Fairway, Whole Foods). The lack of similar amenities on the UES is shameful given the population. UWS also has two main subway lines vs. UES's one.

Yorkville pros: The area around East End/Carl S Park is a beautiful, peaceful location, and the UES overall has a nice neighborhood vibe and selection of restaurants. You'll also be near that strip of park on the E river. Plus, if you can wait it out, the second avenue subway is going in. It will take a while to be completed but once it happens you'll see property values appreciate and more amenities come to the neighborhood.

For the long term (post-crash), the UES gets another subway line, so that closes that gap. And I don't think thats been priced in.

Beyond that, I'd just say that the UES is nicer... much fewer projects, much prettier housing stock. There is a reason its where all the rich folk lived before they moved downtown. Particularly during the day, its just a more pleasant area. UWS has too many sorta marginal spots.

Fact is, east, east 70s is one of the cheapest neighborhoods in Manhattan (and cheaper than some of Brooklyn). Long term, I don't see any way that can continue.

I think Eddie brings up some valid points and I personally like Yorkville because I feel it one of the safest areas of Manhattan. Once the second avenue subway is complete that will make it even more convenient.

> UWS pros: I think the UWS has more character, also a greater selection of food markets (Zabar's,
> Fairway, Whole Foods). The lack of similar amenities on the UES is shameful given the population.

Not quite sure about that.. there is Eli's, Vinegar Factory (both zabar family), Citerella, and more....
Plus, I think UES is much better about having more small stores, UWS has a lot more big box going for it. Even 15 CPW has a BEST BUY in it!

> I think the UWS has more character,
I don't agree with that at all.. I think its got more dirt, but the architecture is inferior, and I think there is a lot less history. How can one forget... besides Natural History, all the museums are on the east side... and so are most of the mansions. The park blocks on the east side are simply amazing.

So what is character? 22 year olds going to Jake's dilemma?

My husband and I had the same dilemma and ultimately narrowed it down to Ariel vs. Miraval. We went with Miraval and the East Side. Quieter, no projects and as someone aptly noted above, "no marginal areas." That's what did it for us. We believe this area will appreciate over the next 5 - 10 years which is our expected time table until we move again.

Eddie, so I guess you live on the upper east side?

Having lived in both places, I'd go with the UWS. Upper East is better if you can afford being west of Lexington (or at least 3rd), but east of 1st is way, way over there. And on 1st and 2nd avenue, you have just as many, if not more, post-college frattish bars than Amsterdam ave does on the UWS (Bar Coastal, Bar Harbor, Session 73, Carrboean Mo's etc). UWS has its issues, but in general is a very nice, family friendly place with great park access, as you rightly point out.

UES housing stock is better around 5th, Madison, Park, but the housing east of 2nd are basically tenements on the streets, and are non-descript highrises on the avenues. UWS has charming brownstones, much like Park Slope or Brooklyn Heights.

One thing I do agree with - UWS has some strange blocks that seem to have projects, or just generally seedy areas, in what should be prime areas. Like 83rd street if I remember right. But you probably know those already.

In this discussion, how far north in Yorkville will everyone consider-are we talking all the way to 96th?

It depends on where you work and what subway lines you need. If you can bear the IRT until the 2nd Avenue line is built & you like that area, stay put. But the UWS definitely has more character and is more connected to the world, but watch the projects that are dotted all about.

The actual (NYCHA, low-income) projects are indeed only dotted about, which generally translates into fewer social problems than when they stand in huge bleak clumps of hopelessness.

In case anyone confuses them with the drab, totally safe middle-income Mitchell-Lama (and ex-ML) buildings from roughly the same era:
1. MLs usually have lanais, porticos, verandas, whatever you want to call them; projects don't (except on fire stairs)
2. Handy project-finder utility: http://gis.nyc.gov/nycha/im/AddressMap.do
3. Generally, projects in Manhattan these days don't affect crime near them (except possibly the huge stands of them in NE Harlem).

How do the projects at 92nd and 1st and then run across 97th/98th street until Madison affect the upper part of Yorkville in your considerations?

"Not quite sure about that.. there is Eli's, Vinegar Factory (both zabar family), Citerella, and more.... "

Sorry, Eddie, but I live right near Eli's and like it's twin Vinegar Factory, it's overpriced and the selection is nowhere near a Fairway or one of the many other neighborhood markets on the UWS (Broadway Farm, Westside Market), Zabar's or Fairway. Citerella is nice but there's one on the UWS as well.

I've lived in both places, and either one you can't go wrong, just depends on how the neighborhood 'feels' to you. With the 2nd Ave subway pending, I'd say the UES - E of 3rd ave - has more upside in the long run.

Thanks for all your replies...

westsidemotel we are looking at places below 90th st. in Yorkville...

> Eddie, so I guess you live on the upper east side?

Nope, try again.

> And on 1st and 2nd avenue, you have just as many, if not more, post-college frattish bars than
> Amsterdam ave does on the UWS (Bar Coastal, Bar Harbor, Session 73, Carrboean Mo's etc).

Mo's is gone. And, you're still not even close to the number on the UWS. and the UWS is a smaller neighborhood. I have some friends who own Upper East Side bars and they note that its been a long and steady descent of bar crowds on the UES. It used to be the main spot in Manhattan (Cocktail the movie, anyone...) but those days are long gone.

"I have some friends who own Upper East Side bars and they note that its been a long and steady descent of bar crowds on the UES"

no kidding...that is because most young people want to live downtown because those places are so lame. but again, having lived both places, the far east UES is way more frattish than the UWS, which is more family oriented. isn't there some bar on 92nd and 2nd that has beer pong tables in it? next thing, you're going to tell me that dormandie court is now a great place for families.

"Nope, try again"

ok...FIDI? Murray Hill? Hell's Kitchen? Let me think of some other crappy neighborhoods...

> no kidding...that is because most young people want to live downtown because those places are so lame

I don't disagree. First year analysts refuse to live on the UES or UWS these days....

> the far east UES is way more frattish than the UWS
Comparing one particular section of one to the entire other? That doesn't make any sense to me.

But there is nothing more frattish than that Amsterdam strip to me... even of the bars you noted (including the ones that closed), they might be cheezy, but some of them are filled with people a little too old to be cheesy. They 'aint too fratty no more.

But, I'm not sure why you're playing this game. Neither UWS nor UES is cool anymore. Thats not what the person is going for. For young and wanna be hip, they both suck. For familes, though, I say UWS sucks even more though.

> ok...FIDI? Murray Hill? Hell's Kitchen? Let me think of some other crappy neighborhoods...

Keep going, you are amusing me....

My point wasn't what is "cool", it is that the UWS is better for families than far east village - better park access, less frattiness. And actually, the UWS from 86 to 96 is even more family-centric than below 86th, and the side streets have some really nice brownstone buildings.

> My point wasn't what is "cool",

Well, you can see how folks might have trouble believing that given it came right next to "...that is because most young people want to live downtown because those places are so lame"

> UES housing stock is better around 5th, Madison, Park, but the housing east of 2nd are basically
> tenements on the streets, and are non-descript highrises on the avenues. UWS has charming
> brownstones, much like Park Slope or Brooklyn Heights.

And tenements and high-rises as well. You can't compare 2 blocks of one neighborhood to the entire other neighborhood. Both have mixes, for sure. UWS has a lot more projects, though... And it also has stuff like lincoln towers, which are fairly horrible. And that whole run of high rises closer to the water.

> My point wasn't what is "cool", it is that the UWS is better for families than far east village

I think you're on the wrong thread. east village?

BTW, the east east 80s I think are BY FAR the most family centric neighborhood in Manhattan (outside of maybe park slope). CS park, all that, crazy stroller land, much less traffic, etc. Definitely more so than any one particular portion of UWS.