What will it sell for - loft edition

Hard to swallow that price without Ken Griffi views.

And it's hardly a classic 'loft' -- 5 separate bedrooms. For almost the same price, you could have 30 Park Place PH78B (https://streeteasy.com/building/30-park-place-new_york/ph78b?featured=1 ), with far better views, and useful balconies (though at that height, maybe not so much). Unfortunately the monthlies are 30% higher. I don't like either neighborhood, though the 9th Ave address is probably considered trendier.

Or for $1.5 million less you could buy this house a couple of blocks away which is twice the size:
https://streeteasy.com/building/357-west-17-street-new_york/house

I have to say 357 West is uninspiring exterior, overbuilt depth, and dated five star hotel like interior - too much brown and black polished stone and color palettes.

66 9th Avenue is beautifully renovated to today’s taste and location.

To me, 357 West shouts 'rock star party house', and while I like that hard modern look, it's not my color or material choice (too much stone) or programmed sensibly (e.g, dining room 1 floor away from kitchen). 66 9th is better modern design, and a pretty good floorplan (though some weird use and waste of space near the core, and the balcony. I know it's only a label, but how come her dressing room is 2x the size of his? And she gets the larger bathroom as well. At least there's not one of those witless free-standing tubs in front of the window.

So, just to be clear, if someone were going to give you one of them for free, you would both choose the 5,444 sf loft over the 11,000 sf house with garage, pool etc.?

If they were to be free and I had to live there, loft for sure due to open view and much better light. If the location of the townhouse were to better rather than next to Kebab house, would have chosen townhouse despite the townhouse being jammed in at the back. Pool is just a large soaking pool rather than swimming pool. If some one has four kids, live in help, strong need for privacy, they would chose townhouse.

Both are sub $20mm properties and townhouse will be much harder to sell due to location. It is just not an ideal townhouse location. I would rather buy famous 73 Washington at $10mm, put $5mm into it without digging down the cellar and make do without a garage.

It's kind of ironic that a place with former views of J's and The Toilet, plus the track can boast boast being a better location than just about anyplace.

What was J’s and The Toilet?

Rather hardcore underground gay clubs.

Thank you. I remember tran hookers on the street in 1996 in meatpacking.

30 you are revealing a whole new side to us!

And who can forget Florent 3am food? I remember there was a biker’s bar on Washington with woman’s undergarments for decor. The area indeed got transformed starting with Pastis.

If it were free and I had to live there, I'd take the loft as well. If the house were located in a better neighborhood, I might take the house. In it's current location, I think the house has the problem of being significantly overdeveloped for the area. It might also be if it were on the UES, but it would be less egregiously so.

So basically what both Aaron and I saying is that in a townhouse you are much more connected to your immediate surroundings at street level vs being higher up. I am sure Kebab house wouldn’t be as big of a negative for a mid-high rise.

So you are both saying that using price per square foot for valuation is fairly meaningless because other factors can lead to doubling / halving of that number even for properties within a few blocks of each other.

No. Square footage is very valuable in similar buildings. Adjusted for light and floor which kind of go together. There is huge light and view premium.

At ultra high $ values, a lot more matters than the square footage alone. Believe 35th floor in 432 Park Avenue is almost half the price per sq ft of the top floors.

Btw, 432 Park Avenue lower floor price per sq ft is absolute cap on 66 9th Avenue price per sq ft ($20mm). Only 30 percent lower than the ask.

I agree that price/sf is generally important, but for a number of people buying at those price points (lets say those with net worth > 5-10x the asking price), other considerations are greater (location prestige, security, social acceptability, etc.). I'm not sure Ken Griffin thought too hard about exactly how much he was paying psf for 220 CPS (which he claims is an 'investment') or 3 Carlton Gardens. He already has a suitably prestigious (for a traditional real estate definition of the term) NYC apartment at 820 5th Ave.

66 9th Ave has dropped to $26,960,000 but 357 West 17th has dropped to $17,999,000.

Townhouse is coming closer to reality. They should just buy out the Kebab house.

It's back.
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-porter-house/6

I dont get it all. Nice place, but the price is bizarre, and $180k/yr in maintenance/taxes. This is too much by 8 figures. And many of the finishes are trying too hard to be trendy (blue kitchen, brass fixtures, lighting). Looks like this was a combination of 3 units collectively purchased for $13MM between 2012-14. Add a few million for appreciation and renovation, this is a $15-16MM property. The penthouse was for sale for 1/3 the price psf, ignoring 1,000 sq ft outdoor space.

Sounds about right. 3k per sq ft. Plus minus. There is an over-supply at this price point.

Imagine the cocktail party where someone says the are buying this for $X and someone else responds "Yeah I just bought the Penthouse at The Walker Building for $18.25 million.

Cannot wait to see what happens with the Walker PH.

+1 on preferring this condo over 357 West 17th. Honestly, that 357 West 17th is overly sybaritic (love my new word!); does nothing for me and actually kind of repulses me. I picture Epstein-like parties there, and who wants to see their car inside their house, even if it is some sort of trophy. As for price points, I have no idea because both are so far out of my personal range, but I agree with the point about ppsf likely not being a factor for those who are in this range.

>mcr - what do you think of 31-37N. Moore street PHA/PHC? On the market in the past for $22-26mm, now up for rent

PS - glad you love your new word!

ph41,
I've been there and for some reason I can't describe I found it off-putting.

N Moore PHAC does not emit a vibe of a “home” to me. It looks like a commercial space from the photos. With that said, were one to gift it to me along with a lifetime of the maintenance costs, I could certainly find a room in that I could turn into a home. That outdoor space looks extraordinary, potentially large enough to use for recreation.

Where to start?

31-37 N Moore PHAC is the worst of the bunch. The living room is nice, but I’m not sure I’d want to spend any time in the rest of the apartment. It seems like people have just poured more and more money into a place that doesn’t have the bones for it. Ceiling height sucks, building next door to compromises outdoor space’s allure, etc.

66 9th Ave is simply a matter of price. Some investor/developer paid $13M to assemble it, paying peak prices for at least one bit. Tried to flip it for $20M+ thinking being able to sign 3 dotted lines somehow commands $7M+ in the market. But who the hell wants 3 decent-shape $2K-ish ppsf apartments. So pours a few million in to produce a ~$16M apt but wants another ~$10M for investment folly.

The bones on this place are in the range of $1000-1500 ppsf. You can pour another $1000-1500 ppsf into the build. That’s about it, that’s all it can handle.

357 W 17th. Bones are good for what it is, poured ~$1000 ppsf (?) into it to max it out for what the bones can support price-wise. The bones don’t have the openness, light, views, to support (say) $4K ppsf, but that’s not what was targeted. Tried for $2500 ppsf originally, ending up at $1500 ppsf. But not a clusterfuck endeavor at the outset. Personally, I’d rather have half the space at twice the ppsf, but the compound / privacy thing is up some people’s alley.

Walker Tower PH is clearly the best of the bunch.

Original $50M / $9K ppsf is a “I have all the money in the world and I don’t care” or “someone else’s money” price. Sadly, it was literally the latter. The $35M / $6K ppsf ask was not unreasonable, should have ended $25-30M pre-Covid. At $18M / $3K ppsf, it’s well below the cost of what it takes to put that together and tilts in favor of buy over rent, even by my standards. Cost for bones alone are probably north of $3K ppsf IMO.

357 West 17th St
Original list $37 million
https://ny.curbed.com/2016/12/2/13823728/chelsea-karim-rashid-townhouse-for-sale-37-million

Last listing price $17,999,000
https://streeteasy.com/sale/1440831

Sold for $14,999,000
https://therealdeal.com/2020/07/21/chelsea-manse-once-listed-for-37m-sells-after-41-price-chop/

Now for rent $67,000/month.

Such an eyesore. I guess the area isn't landmarked (or wasn't at the time of construction). So sad to think it was once a 1920s brownstone and now... this ugly monstrosity. And WTF re: the waiting-room style chairs facing the glass-enclosed carport? So people can just sit there and watch their Lambo? Bizarre.

I walked by 357 W 17 earlier today. Papa Kebab next door has shuttered!!!

>> Now for rent $67,000/month.

Hurrah, now we get to watch the rent get chopped over the upcoming years!

I see $75k.

After $11k drop.

Just a bad location.

Update:
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-porter-house/6

https://streeteasy.com/sale/1609419?card=1

@30 - but does it come with the Ferrari now?
Cool if you want to live in a kitchen design store crossed with an Equinox.
I think the hot tub at my house is bigger, same brand though.

It's like they thought they were in Miami.

I like the rental ask trajectory from 2020:

https://streeteasy.com/rental/3122911

To 2022/2023:

https://streeteasy.com/rental/3958862

Okay, that’ll happen real soon…

But don't you understand with interest rates so much higher they NEED more rent?
(This is a jab at everyone who always talks both sides of the story:
When the market is up they are perfect capitalists supply/demand, but when things head the other way that argument goes out the window and THEIR needs now get thrown in).

At least on this one there is no mortgage…

I understand the desire to have a 5-6% cap rate, especially in a world where 1yr treasuries yield 5%. But the realities of the market here are a cap rate of 2-3%, so why bother? I guess $6/day to SE is a rounding error…

Here is another pair of pandemic-era “deals” people swooped in on, only to put them back on the market after 2 years.

The first is looking for a $7.7M => $13.5M miracle:

https://streeteasy.com/building/111-murray-street/60e

Unfortunately, the identical apt above is looking for a much more reasonable $7.8M => $10.5M buyer. I suppose they’re looking for a $10M bid so they can clear $9M after transaction costs and consider the inflation-matching $1M profit on their cash purchase a “win”? Unfortunately, no takers at that price either after nearly a year:

https://streeteasy.com/building/111-murray-street/sale/1600711

The consolation prize is a tenant paying a cap rate of 2.6%, at most, on the original purchase price:

https://streeteasy.com/building/111-murray-street/rental/3980270

The Return of aspirational pricing?
https://www.urbandigs.com/forum/index.php?threads/the-return-of-aspirational-pricing.704/

I wonder how many "I don't need to sells" it takes to get to the center of a Tootsie pop?

lol

At 357, it looks like the ventilation "design" is to have all the smoke & carbon monoxide from the gas stove waft through the cutout onto your third-floor guests?

$115k/mo and your sink can't even hold a skillet or cutting board, SMH. I guess the intended flow is: each kid grabs their own Stouffer's from the freezers, zigzags around the islands, then distributes them among the 6 wall ovens?

You know, in all these years of this listing coming and going I had never actually looked at the kitchen’s design.

In all fairness, isn’t the fridge right next to the ovens? No zigzag required.

Question: do you think this ventilation solution is any better? Or why bother?

https://streeteasy.com/building/39-lispenard-street-new_york/ph6

Maybe. Hard to say which doors are fridge and which are pantry.

At 39 Lispenard, at least they're honest about the kitchen being an afterthought, tucked aside the Great Room that's the real draw for this class of renter, unlike at 357 where they've set aside tons of sqft + reno $$ for their weird cooking style. (and who knows, maybe that skylight above 39's range is motorized)

aweosme

There is an exhaust on the ceilings in 39. A few pictures down.

pic 2 and 10

Unless it's powered by a jet aircraft engine there is no way that is effective in preventing kitchen odors from escaping that area.

When you see any of these in person just take a pot and place a piece of newspaper in it then light it on fire. It's pretty easy to judge the effectiveness of any ventilation.

That’s illegal. Nowadays, you just light your pot and see if it passes the sniff test.

The price here goes between $3 million and $7 million
https://streeteasy.com/sale/1160750
https://streeteasy.com/closing/23840
https://streeteasy.com/building/the-porter-house/5e