appliances

miele

On lower end of the range Bosch ovens as well.

On top end of the range, Miele as well as Wolf Subzero. Subzero Wolf, Miele and Gagganeu at higher than $5mm.

Any thoughts on the brand Bertazzoni??

Pretty curious if clients really care about the stove range as long as they are functioning properly and match the design of the kitchen. Prices between the stoves mentioned above vary vastly, but from the outside ....they look pretty similar?

A certain segment of the market will care about the stove, because they are competent cooks, and want a reputable, reliable tool. Another (possibly overlapping) segment want to signal their good taste, cultural sophistication, and capabilities on the domestic front to visitors (in person and online), and so want something Instagrammable that helps convey that message.

"Young people might want to stock their kitchens, but many of them also want to post, and it’s possible to kill both those birds with one heavy-bottomed pan. On Instagram, “the conversation around food and cookware in general is so big,” says Collier. And that’s great for Le Creuset. “Visually, we love that, because of our colors and because of the way food looks on there.” "Instagram is where young Americans go to perform domesticity, which has created a perfect marketing opportunity for brands that already make certain kinds of home goods. Fine knives and Cuisinart food processors are just as helpful in putting delicious, impressive food on the table, but you don’t see them as much. They’re just not as cute."

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/01/kitchenaid-le-creuset-peak-domesticity/605716/

BK, Bertazzoni has two different qualities. Higher end prices are very much comparable to Wolf Viking Miele. But the cheaper range looks pretty good, I have heard poor quality feedback above convection fan etc, and should be fine for under $2mm price range.

I can attest to the poor convection fan, but my kitchen is near the window so just leave that open at the same time. The rest of the stove top and oven seem to work fine (I cook at home 4 times a week).

Regarding how cute it is or how it looks on Instagram....¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Convection fan is to recirculate hear inside oven.

Apologizes...confused it with the exhaust fan..

90% of appliances are chosen based on looks.

In that sense Bertazzoni looks very nice. I used it for one of the apartments I sold a long time back. But buyers in $2mm and above range do a price search and judge the quality by the few things for which they can get online prices.

I've put in two Bertazzoni ranges (higher end version of their lines without going to dual fuel) and they worked fine. Looked perfect for price points (2MM). In both instances I needed the ranges to have a smaller footprint than Wolf, Viking, et al. have. The Bertazzoni isn't as deep as most.

I've also done top of the line Bosch refrigerators and dishwashers--one set stainless, the other cabinet front.

A sponsor I have dealt with does a Viking package for all appliances for 1.5-2MM price range.

I hate sellers who tout appliances. So you spent $1000 more on appliances and act as if that should drive $1 million in cost. No, it just means you think I'm an idiot.

George, Cost is Subzero is 10k and Bosch/Fisher Paykel could be $2000. You can get gas stove for $1000 and Wolf 36inch is $7k with taxes. Wall oven can be $1500 and Miele over $5k. There is a real cost and quality difference. Not saying quality difference difference is commensurate to cost. Also, when people cheap out in appliances, you do not know what else they cheaped out on.

Ok, so they spent maybe an extra $20k on fancy brand names. And got some boxes from Hermes to put in the closet to make me think I should pay more. It's a psychological trick. Developers are smart enough to put money into certain things and skimp on everything else. Hence the floorboards separate a year in, the pipes burst from flushable kitty litter, the elevator constantly needs repair, and the foundation cracks. But at least you have a $20k microwave.

George,
For decades I have walked through construction sites of "high end" Condo projects and shaken my head. 2 notable examples: when a Trump Riverside building who was using a notoriously mobbed up concrete company failed an inspection an elected not to tear down and repour those floors, and when I walked through The Mercantile Building seeing several active leaks gushing (like waterfall level) against newly installed insulation and only using Greenboard for the walls surrounding the oversized whirlpool tubs, in addition to flooring with cheap engineered floors with beveled edges (a personal peeve of mine).

I remember there was a Tribeca project where I knew a guy who bought in but immediately renovated. They had made a big deal that "all interior walls are insulated" but when he knocked one down, there was ONE piece of insulation used in an entire 15 foot wall.

30, Look the Walker tower for floors. The beveled engineered can be very expensive if the wear layer is 6mm. Also when using wide planks say 5 inch or more solid wood, beveling helps hide seasonal expansion and contraction.

George, I am glad you understand the appliance cost now. Buyers are not stupid. They realize that there is difference of cost between Waterworks or Dornbracht $700 faucet and run of the mill Koehler $150 faucet. They may function the same but they look different. Same way, you can Baldwin door set for $70 from their reserve line or $250 from their Estate line - very different quality and choice of designs. Many buyers who appreciate luxury pay.

George, I am glad you understand the appliance cost now. Buyers are not stupid. They realize that there is difference of cost between Waterworks or Dornbracht $700 faucet and run of the mill Koehler $150 faucet. They may function the same but they look different. Same way, you can Baldwin door set for $70 from their reserve line or $250 from their Estate line - very different quality and choice of designs. You may not appreciate luxury enough to pay for it but many do and pay for it.

Lol. I never know whether 300 is playing some elaborate ruse with us all here by pretending not to understand SE posters' arguments here...

George: "A $10,000 stovetop over a $2,000 stovetop shouldn't increase the selling price of a $5 million condo by much."
300: "Exactly, now you understand George -- $10,000 is more than $2,000."

Do clients ever go to the extent of 'inspecting' things you cannot see?

For example....crappy material used in pipes, amount of sound/insulation thickness, thickness of hardwood floors etc? Is there even a way to check?

Reno, George was taking about $1000 difference in appliances which is silly. No one is asking $1mm premium just for appliances. I am trying to explain politely that typically higher end appliance come with many other higher end finishes. I had included some simple examples. High-end appliances also typically come with be much better kitchen cabinets rather than IKEA. Countertops can be Carrara Marble at $25 per sq ft raw material vs $150 per sq ft Calacatta. Then again people only understand if they want to understand. Plenty of people in NY who understand and are willing to pay for high-end luxury. No one is forced to.

Perhaps this is a good example:
https://streeteasy.com/building/56-marlborough-road-brooklyn/a?context%5Bcontroller%5D=%23%3CBuildingController%3A0x00005566a065dc20%3E&context%5Bcurrent_user%5D=1040784&hide_if_empty=true&section=sales

I think Reno is very nice and thoughtful at low end luxury (ignoring the asking price). They managed to keep some original details which is great.

So, Bosch oven (single wall oven at $2500 vs $5-6k for Miele and Wolf) come with Reform cabinets which are IKEA boxes. Decor is only cook top rather than range. Not sure which fridge. Bathrooms seems to be porcelain tiles rather than large format marble. Then have done a good job of describing what they used for finishes. Now it is up to buyer to decide the price. Whether it is $200k lower than ask or $1mm lower than ask.

I am sure others have a different take from mine. Would love to hear it.

In most parts of the country, the price of a housing unit is the sum of a relatively inexpensive lot plus materials plus labor plus a homebuilder's margin. Here, all of these are grossly inflated. The lot costs $1000 a buildable foot rather than $15. Construction costs are $1000 not $150. Labor is inflated by everything from govt red tape to organized crime and taxes. So a homebuilder selling a place at $4000 a foot rather than $400 needs to justify it somehow. How else to do it than install a $20,000 microwave? The buyer, seeking mainly to launder some ill-gotten gain from their third-world despotism and knowing nothing about NY, is happy to go along

George, There are new developments for under $2k per sq ft with everything very nice. There are resales with everything very nice for $1500 per sq ft. $4k is just silly pricing unless you have a unique view on a very high floor.

So when are you moving to Detroit or Chicago or Reno or Jacksonville where the stuff is much cheaper?

High-end name brand appliances are certainly well made, however, for the most part it's a big helping of consumption. But just like a Seiko watch has an excellent movement, most that want to make a statement will buy a Rolex, Patek etc. All will tell time excellently.

That said I love my liebherr refrigerator, 6 burner wolf (all gas). The dealer we purchased from threw in an asko dishwasher for $200, which we've been perfectly happy with.

If you're renovating your kitchen, a good way to save some money, buy floor models. We saved 40% on a refrigerator and still received the full factory warranty.

I love my Seiko's, but there's still something just a little bit special about my sub. And as someone who likes to cook and bake, I feel the same way about our wolf range. I also prefer the gas oven for baking, but maybe that's just me.

Another way that I like to look at these Marquee branded appliances, they may not add a tremendous amount of additional dollar value to your home. But they certainly will add liquidity, they do help sell a home. Especially at the lower to mid level price point where you're not expecting to see a wolf or a Sub-Zero etc. If you get creative you can purchase these brands at a discount like I mentioned above. If you're spending the money on a renovation, try to save money on your cabinets, spend the money on the hardware (appliances).

I very rarely have a client come in looking at mid-level stuff name drop the kitchen cabinets. But they certainly will get a little bit more excited about the Wolf or the Sub-Zero etc.

@30 our currently Liebherr, semi built-in refrigerator has been working perfectly for the last 2 years. The previous post you mentioned you didn't care for the brand.

I'm ready to move to Miami but Mrs George has always dreamed of a brownstone in the West Village. We could have a pied-a-terre and a NetJets card with the tax savings alone. As Bloomie once said, NYC is a luxury good, from its high taxes to its $20,000 microwaves.

Mrs George understands luxury!! And I think she will win. I understand it including why people pay for it even through I pick and choose which luxury I really want to pay for. For example, view is not something I would spend on (some views are 100-200 percent premium over the same location and building) but I understand there are people much richer with legitimately earned money than me who gladly pay for it.

Keith,
Just to be clear, I never said I didn't care for the brand, I simply pointed out that there seem to be a lot of complaints from disgruntled customers on the internet. What I will say, however, is that in my mind 2 years doesn't tell you anything. I've seen plenty of 20 year old SubZero's which were still working fine, and in my 22 years of owning one I spent a total of $400 on repairs and I'm fairly impressed by that (especially after seeing a few "Secrets of Appliance Repairmen" videos which said these days you're lucky if any appliance lasts 10 to 12 years, and that's including having several major repairs along the way).

I didn't mean that in a snarky way 30, just in case you were wondering how we were doing. I've had good luck with both liebherr and sub, although you do seem any complaints about them online.

When we did our kitchen reno (in a co-op where our place is, with the reno, probably about $1.1 million or so), we did high-end countertops/backsplash, high-end dishwasher (which really does make a huge difference in performance), high-end micro and mid-range everything else (i.e.- samsung range), including cabinets. Personally,when on a budget and in our price range, I think we spent our money on the most important things that add value. Nothing worse than seeing crappy countertops in a reno.

So I just spent close to $40k on the appliances including washer dryer for a high-end (not ultra) luxury reno and appliance front panels are extra.