What's happening with the coop market on the UES?

Using subjective as opp

Opposed to objective criteria you can make numbers work on anything. When I see ownership/safety/whatever premium used to justify numbers I see the same thing as claiming pistachio ice cream is a better financial deal because when you add the premium for being the best flavor it's actually a better deal than vanilla which is the same price.

When it comes to post COVID flight I don't feel like researching the articles but i thought I saw conflicting info claiming there has been No appreciable flight from New York. Does anyone have a definitive source? Because before we attribute something to post covid flight, I'd really like to know if it exists

Renters could just as easily add some "freedom premium" but that too would be bogus. In engineering school there were a couple of guys who would jokingly say they got an answer correct when they didn't because you just needed the "coefficient of correctness" with that coefficient being the number which when multiplied by you answer yields the correct answer.

>> whatever premium used to justify numbers

The trouble stems from people expecting the premium to sustain forever. I recall that after the housing bubble, we saw AZ real estate drop by more than half yet Manhattan only gave back ~10% of its bubble price. Why? Manhattan premium.

~15 years later, AZ tripled while Manhattan simply gained back its 10%. The premium seems to have evaporated.

@GeorgeP - large % increase but very small absolute # moving to Villages
assume someone needs to wait tables etc for the boomers retired there right?

@nada - precisely right about the premium, its ephemeral

30, we don't have '23 numbers yet. We have '22 numbers about the city from DiNapoli and mid-'23 numbers about the state from the census bureau.

I *think* both those sets of numbers say the same thing -- there is outflow from New York (both the City and the State) but it's minor. To give you an idea, the State population dropped by half a percent.

There's domestic outflow from the City (which has been occurring for decades, possibly as a cost-of-living issue) but that's balanced by people being born here, international immigrants coming in, and some magical only-in-New-York factor that older people seem slow to die here.

Ali,
That's my point. So to attribute sales decrease to "pandemic flight" seems dubious.

So I met up with some friends at a Turkish restaurant around 72 st and 2nd ave on Thursday. Q train to the rescue. The food was pretty good and reasonably priced. That area seemed to be clean and happening but not sexy. Average age probably 10 years higher than Greenwich/West Village and prices closer to East Village. A lot of families.

I also discussed some of the good sized 1 bed room coop prices with my friends who live on the UES in their forever (for now at least) easygoing coop and they were $100k less than what they expected. They certainly felt that prices have come down to a very reasonable level.

I'm just speculating but I wonder if the UES given its *relative* lack of racial diversity has acquired a kind of stigma among a kind of younger, highly educated homeseeker for whom living in a more racially and economically diverse area of the city constitutes a marker of status: 'I'm educated and I value diversity and have all the right opinions'. I'm thinking of a youngish couple and their child who could have lived anywhere and chose Brooklyn.

@MTH - yes this is definitely a factor given the views of your median Millennial/Zoomer NYer. The people I know who have lived there, while not necessarily GOP voters, were some of the least lefty NY Dems I knew and also very white.

I still think UES is a "less sticky" hood. The people I know who bought downtown or WB/Park Slope/Dumbo/etc in BK in last 15 years have generally all stayed in the city and generally the same hood, probably 75+%. The UES buyers its more like 25%.

Of course, I am not wealthy enough for certain circles and if you have generational family money, UES is a different beast than a couple who both work with total <$1M HHI making it on their own.

The demographics of people I know who choose UES are also interestingly disproportionately non-NYC metro area transplants. Mostly people from Europe, the US south or west. Maybe it's a sort of aspirational "NYC = Manhattan, I must be in Manhattan".. and UES is the most housing-plentiful affordable "safe" hood? UWS and Downtown have long since outpaced UES on pricing. Top 5% transplants aren't generally moving to Harlem/Inwood. Etc.

Maybe now given the last decade of media portrayals, Brooklyn is drawing in a lot of these aspirational transplants?

Steve,

West of Lex and East of Lex is two different worlds on UES. Everytime I eat around 2nd ave (every 4-6 months) on UES, I have been pleasantly surprised by mid-end restaurants - food and as well as people. And people very happy with their schools. In terms of diversity, it is not East Village where it is 30-40% Asian if you go close to Saint Marks/2ave which seems to be the new mecca of high-quality Chinese food outside of Flushing.

I don’t know about MTH’s theory. The West Village is teeming with a lot of young people, not like the East Village. I obviously haven’t polled individuals on the street, but they all seem like they’d hold similar beliefs. By outward appearances, the West Village crowd seems much more status conscious than the East Village crowd. But the the West Village crowd seems very white (and somewhat skewed towards female). The East Village crowd seems more diverse.

Park slope diversity:
https://www.niche.com/places-to-live/n/park-slope-new-york-city-ny/residents/

https://www.niche.com/places-to-live/n/upper-east-side-new-york-city-ny/residents/

Does the absence of public housing projects make demographics similar adjusted for wealth?

Back to what's happening with the market. We had about half a dozen showings on the upper west and upper East side over the weekend. I can always take a pretty accurate temperature of the market based on broker interactions. In this case, some well-known agents following up quite aggressively, based on what they perceived as a positive showing. In strong markets there is no such follow-up.

Looking for related advice. I also own an UES co-op that has been up for sale for a bit. 2 bd, 2ba plus home office in a small pre-war VERY full service building west of 3rd Ave (with the very high maintenance that goes with that territory. (We were poorly advised by our agent ten years ago when we purchased). Our current asking price is 200K less than what we paid almost ten years ago and we’ve had no activity. Other similar units around us that are $200K lower than ours aren’t moving either so slashing the price further seems like it would be pointless? We’re debating renting it out (which we can do once with board approval for two years only) to cover costs and hope the market will be better in two years time, though there will be wear and tear on the apartment. And maybe things will be just as dismal in two years time. Advice?

people are buying things that have low maintenance at relatively high prices (see Keith's note upthread, I think it's on this thread, about bidding wars for two-bedrooms in Brooklyn). But listings with high maintenance (and I've got one) need to really have an element of perceived value to them. At your current list price, what's the "all-in" monthly cost vs. a comparable rental?

ali r.
{upstairs realty}

@Yentle - Your building is the same profile as mine (except your UES location is West of 3rd, which I believe has a much broader market than my Beekman Place neighborhood). One seller in our building who was "waiting for the market to improve" in our building finally cut his losses after having his place on the market for 5.5 years. Others have done the same after having their places on the market for 2+ years. There is a price at which your apartment will trade; my advice is to accept it and move on.

On a positive note, however, the two most recent sales in my building have been to relatively young trust-funders (early thirties) for whom money is not really an object, so I am happy to see that the product that is our building has appeal to some young people who can afford it. Maybe they will start a movement and some of their friends will join them to give the building a renaissance . . ..

@Yentle -- If you've been in the place for 10 years, potential buyers will probably be looking to do some updating. So I hope you've baked that into your asking price. If buyers will be eyeing renovations, the additional wear and tear from 2 years of renting may be a negligible factor in a future asking price. (Yes, I know, there's that edge risk that Godzilla and Mothra have a fight to the finish in the living room. This is why the gods gave us insurance.) A tenant may be a good bridge option if you're not just dying to be out of the UES. If you are, find out from your board what their minimum acceptable sales price would be, and price accordingly for a sale (e.g., mcr's advice).

How much is the $200K relative to the apartment value? How much relative to your assets?

12% down from what we paid nine years ago. If we chop it way down below the others for sale in our building (that aren’t moving), we’d be 37% down from where we were…..Are we just unrealistic? Our agents are confident we can rent and at a price that covers our maintenance and costs, etc…. So should we kick the can down the road the two years and hope the market will recover a bit? Of course maintenance will continue to go up…. forever…. And taxes on building have gone way up since apparently tied to rental market - that’s a unique NYC cluster f*(& where one gets taxed on increased value even as values plummet???

Be careful about becoming a landlord. If you get a bad tenant, your problems now will seem trivial. I’ve been a landlord for over 20 years and most tenants I’ve dealt with have been great…but a couple almost made me lose my mind. I underestimated how much work is required being a landlord…and most people do…tenants have a lot of rights. Just make sure you screen prospective tenants very carefully. Since there is the added step of any tenant needing to get board approval (I assume), that’s an extra check you don’t rent to the wrong individual(s). Plus have you actually looked at comparable rentals in your building to confirm you’d cover all your costs? I’ve been a landlord in many states and cities and I found New York City was by FAR the most difficult to break even, cover mortgage, insurance, taxes, condo fees, etc…everything is just so damn expensive in this city!

>> I’ve been a landlord in many states and cities and I found New York City was by FAR the most difficult to break even, cover mortgage, insurance, taxes, condo fees, etc…everything is just so damn expensive in this city!

I believe that set of circumstances would indicate the rents are cheap.

Yentle,

I think it’s fair to say that the current market price is more than 24% below your purchase price. Perhaps it’s 37% below, I don’t know. But before thinking too hard about what you should do, perhaps you should figure out if 37% below (or whatever) will pass muster with the board. If not, then it’s not really a choice to agonize over.

It seemed that purchasing an apartment in or around 2007 or 2014ish did not work out so well for many people trying to sell now. We recently had a deal go south, when the seller who purchased on the upper East side in 2007, Just could not come to grips with the fact they were going to sell their home and after transaction fees take a small loss. This after being on the market for 276 days. Meaning they could not get their head around the fact that there was essentially no appreciation after so many years of ownership.

We've definitely Incorporated this into our business model when advising people on purchases in these neighborhoods.

Keith Burkhardt
TBG

UES West of Lex stuffy Coops (50% down as an indicator or stuffy) are down 10-20% in the last 10 years. Not sure if that is true east of Lex non stuffy coops (say 20-25% down).

Those stuffy coops should really try to get 50% to 30% down as a concrete step. Easier said than done of course.

Take your lumps and move on. You don't want to be a landlord. The market won't improve in 2 years. If you think it will, move on anyway from this place, take the capital loss on your returns, and invest the sale proceeds into a couple of residential REITS and let those appreciate.

As nada pointed out, will the co-op board allow you to take your lumps and move on?

I would think they wouldn’t have a choice? We haven’t had a sale in the building in 4years despite seven owners trying, and they refuse to consider changing service structure to reduce maintenance….

@Yentle: Well, this is the problem: The board does have the ability to block a sale. If 7 others didn't get offers that went to contract, then their asking price was too high. If the 7 others brought deals to the board for approval, and the buyers were otherwise qualified, the reason for the lack of sale is that the board is trying to preserve prices. If preserving an expensive service structure is a key board priority, then share prices may have to suffer, and the board may need to be educated on the overall trend of UES co-op prices, let alone the trend of 'boutique' or 'very full service' units. The thing to find out from the board is the minimum sale price that they would approve.

How many units in the building?

36 units. SEVEN full time employees and live in super but Board won’t touch that. Board approved a lower priced estate sale a number of years ago so I don’t think they would bar a sale. Just painful to think about losing so much money….

There’s at least one problem: 7 full time employees PLUS a live-in super for only 36 units? Is this normal for New York City. I have lived in 25 unit buildings in San Francisco with ZERO full time employees. Sure, we had contracts for regular maintenance such as cleaning, pest control, boiler maintenance, etc, etc…but not even one employee dedicated full time to the building

If you have a full time doorman - that is 5 employees right there (3 eigth hour shift, sat sun plus vacation/sick days). Then a porter. Live in super is not needed but that is where the fat is. Or the super can act a porter or back up doorman. So there is certainly an extra employee.

My building has twice the staff, but suporting over six times the # of units: 1 live in building manger (super), 7 doormen/concierges, and 7 porters/handymen.

At 8 employees for 36 units, I hope they're emptying your dishwasher, watering the plants, and feeding the cat.

8 staff for 36 units is an intractable budget problem.

My condo has 5 staff for 60 units and labor is an ever growing percent of budget.

My precious condo was 15 staff for 150 units and had lower monthlies.

As I noted above, Yentle's building is the same profile as mine. Maintenance is $4.50/square foot. There is a niche market for that, but the analysis is consumption, not investment. Yentle has already admitted that s/he did not receive top notch advice from h/is buyer's broker circa 2015. Given the profile of who would have been approved by "that" board, the loss will not be material. Just take the hit and move on.

Maybe this belongs in a different conversation but since it came up: how easy or difficult is it to downsize full time staff if a board decides to cut costs - particularly if the staff are unionized?

> 8 staff for 36 units is an intractable budget problem.

> My condo has 5 staff for 60 units and labor is an ever growing percent of budget.

> My precious condo was 15 staff for 150 units and had lower monthlies.

All these numbers are still much higher than the working class's borough of Queens.

My first apartment's building had only one super for about 50 units.

My second apartment's building had one super and two porters for about 130 units.

I heard some small buildings in my neighborhood doesn't even have a super, they just hire a part-time janitor (not paying much as they also take into account that the jantior's family have a free rental for the basement) to do the cleaning and contract out maintenance jobs.

There are parts of the world where they don't even have part-time janitors.

Our building in Nowhere (which is my favorite and where I call home now) has no staff; contracts out cleaning and maintenance. Same size apartment as our apt in NY. Monthlies are $832 CAM and $900 for taxes.

Woodside, A big difference is doorman vs non doorman.

Here’s a question/thought for this tribe given the intractable labor cost issue and inability to sell — what if one sublets, stops taking any personal mortgage/tax deduction on the shares in the co-op (to convert it to a rental property), then sells at a loss at the end of the sublet to take a rental loss deduction to offset the pain? Any accountants in the mix??

>> 36 units. SEVEN full time employees and live in super but Board won’t touch that.

It’s a bit unfair to expect the board to do anything about that. Unless something weird happened with your building, staffing levels don’t tend to change, and everyone knows the headcount going in. If personally employing 0.25 people (or whatever it works out to) for services provided does not match your preferences, you should look elsewhere. Your neighbors, who came in on the same spiel, should not be expected to come to your preferred level of service.

>> Here’s a question/thought for this tribe given the intractable labor cost issue and inability to sell — what if one sublets, stops taking any personal mortgage/tax deduction on the shares in the co-op (to convert it to a rental property), then sells at a loss at the end of the sublet to take a rental loss deduction to offset the pain? Any accountants in the mix??

I like the way you’re thinking!!! I’m not an accountant, but I did a quick search out of curiosity. Unfortunately, tax code seems to give a free option on this one. You should research further yourself, but here’s the first reference I found:

https://www.marcumllp.com/insights/converting-a-personal-residence-to-rental-property

When the property is sold the basis is calculated differently for gain or loss. When the property is sold at a gain the basis is the original cost plus amounts paid for capital improvements, less any depreciation taken. When sold at a loss the starting point for the basis is the lower of property original cost or the FMV at the time it was converted from personal to rental property. If the property is rented for three years or less then sold, you still may be eligible for the 250,000 gain exclusion or 500,000 for married filing jointly.

>Woodside, A big difference is doorman vs non doorman.

@300_mercer
Yes, the doorman increases headcount. The question remains whether doorman makes economical sense money wise.

My thinking is that doorman is more about the consumption. For consumption, it is always money wasted down the drain while the building residents enjoy the service they provided.

For myself, I don't even like a building with a doorman, the doorman gives me negative consumption value, LOL

Ha. I don’t have a doorman exactly for that reason. I don’t need it and don’t want to pay for it. But some people in NYC can’t imagine living in a building without it.

With respect converting a personal residence to rental property to enable deduction of loss, wouldn't this aspect defeat the purpose? "When sold at a loss the starting point for the basis is the lower of property original cost or the FMV at the time it was converted from personal to rental property."

For example, say FMV of coop I bought in 2016 for $1.6M is only $1.2M today, so I decide to convert it to a rental property, hoping the market looks better down the road. If I sell it down the road for $1.2M, I won't have any loss to recognize. Same goes if I sell it for more than $1.2M down the road.

The conversion strategy only works if the owner fudges the FMV of the apartment on the day it is converted to a rental property. I suspect such fudging would be hard to detect/prove, but I think that is technically tax fraud?

Yes, you are right MCR. I accidentally left out a NOT in what I had intended to write earlier:

>> Unfortunately, tax code seems NOT to give a free option on this one.

I remember reading many years ago some hotel expert opining that there will never be a 5 star hotel in NYC because it requires a staff to guest ratio of 1:1

Just me but I like the DM for the package room. Spent my first year here in a non DM building and found it a challenge. Last calculated a while back and my share of the payroll runs about 4k per year and well worth it for the convenience plus I get a lower home insurance premium with DM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW8bPGw5h8s

I agree — packages are the #1 benefit of having a DM. I recently spent a year without one. Deliveries come many times a day, even from the same company. If I gotta answer the door, it’s disruptive to me working. Even if someone else has to answer the door, it’s less disruptive but still disruptive. And if deliveries are missed, it’s more disruptive still.

But to some people, the disruption may matter less.

Doorman is the only amenity I think is worth paying for…packages don’t get stolen plus the added sense of security knowing someone is there 24 hours…even if they’re not actually there every minute of 24 hours. Plus I love the fact that they have master keys to every unit, this has saved my partner several times after inadvertently locking herself out. Plus I get paranoid of leaving my apartment vacant when I go on extended trips, having a DM eases those fears although I do realize if someone wants to bring into your apartment and they are determined enough there is not much you can do. I have never used the gym once in my building and in other condos I lived in that had lavish rooftop decks and pools and very large well equipped fitness centers, I never took advantage of those amenities. I’ve yet to find a condo that had just the one amenity I want, the 24 hours DM, usually this amenity comes with many others I couldn’t care less about!

Gym is my close #2, but I spend 1+ hours exercising every day. The alternative of going to an outside gym costs time. Same with a home gym, because it just takes longer when you don’t have all the equipment laid out.

Another useful service is vendor-watching. Some vendor is coming for an hour to fix the fridge or whatever, but you’re not around. You ask someone from the staff to hang around while they work. Or watering plants when you’re away. This sort of stuff requires staffing levels that has them twiddling their thumbs most of the time. A lot of people don’t find value in it, which I understand. But at some level of income, it makes more sense to pay for them to twiddle their thumbs most of the time compared to you spending time coordinating with perenially-flaky service vendors, finding new plants to replace the dead ones, etc.

There are lots of solutions for package deliveries available for non-dorman buildings

@Yentle - I just looked at your apartment online and here are my thoughts: (1) Your building and mine were separated at birth; (2) your apartment and mine were separated at birth. We purchased ours at a price point slightly below your current ask and then did a gut reno. I am evidence that there is a market (tiny as it may be) for what you are selling. I think your biggest competition is your neighbor, whose apartment looks better on paper but for the bonus room. We value our virtually identical bonus room and gladly pay its separate maintenance bill, BUT, one of our neighbors sold their bonus room to another shareholder in the building before listing their apartment because they felt buyers would not value the bonus room plus the monthly charge would be lower without the added maintenance for the bonus room. I think your bonus room is a selling point, even with the added maintenance, but not everyone shares that sentiment. Ask your broker if you have not already. Plus, you'd be surprised at how much existing shareholders are willing to pay for those rooms.

Ok I know I asked all the questions I need to figure out which listing it is along with the info already provided, but I'm too lazy ... MCR which is it?

You think your maintenance is high? What do think the maintenance is now on this
https://streeteasy.com/building/23-west-9-street-new_york/1
1 Br, no doorman, no elevator, part time Super?

My advice is to try and get together with everyone who hasn't be able to sell and try to get enough together to sell the entire building (de-Coop).

@30yrs - Yentle's building and mine are similar down to the detail that shareholders who like the building love it and upgrade within it. Yentle bought his/her/their apartment from a shareholder who just moved upstairs. My guess is that the majority of shareholders are older and have no interest in selling ever. While all would profit from selling the building, I suspect that the majority of shareholders have no interest in selling the home they plan to occupy for the remainder of their time on this plant.

@Rinette- Fond as I am of you, no shortcuts. You have to do the work.

*planet

@30yrs - the maintenance on 23 W 9th St is insane without even a doorman. That building has a fraught litigation history and I am guessing the maintenance is due to legal bills, yet there was still a taker because of the location.

So, now I am procrastinating by looking at 2/2 bedroom pre-war UES market, and here is the worst I have found so far in terms of maintenance: https://streeteasy.com/building/955-lexington-avenue-new_york/5c $6548/month for a 2/2 - and I thought my and yentle's maintenance was high! wow.

>>>$6548/month for a 2/2 - and I thought my and yentle's maintenance was high! wow<<<

The one you're linking to is $4548. Which doesn't seem outrageous.

You have to scroll down and read the entire description; actual maintenance is $6548 but they are offering that $2000K subsidy for a period of time to make it look lower at the top of the listing.

Last line of the description: "Note, actual maintenance is $6,548 per month. The seller is offering to pay the additional $2,000 per month for the first full year."

I find that ploy ridiculous, but I see it enough that it must work for some.

Wow MCR that is indeed some shady kung fu.

Don't miss the 50% price cut since Jan 2022 either!

Looks like maintenance was $5777 then, so +13% in 18 months. 1C has $4256 maintenance which was $2875 in 2014 (+48% in 10 years) and $2360 in 2009 (so +22% in 5 years 2009->2014).

So certainly would seem increases have accelerated over time. Note 1C is below its 2014 last sale price and basically at its 2009 sale price if you include the sellers credit. 2005 price not far from there.

It's interesting to see some of these units that have become so uneconomical. One of those "slowly, then all at once" situations? Full service building with only 29 units and a innumerate profligate board?

At that maintenance level why not just rent? This place can't be much more than 1200 sq ft right?

Even if you are a cash buyer, you lock up capital, have insurance to pay, routine upkeep costs, etc. It's not like its a super prime location and the kitchen & baths are dated.

Listing 1C in the same building is also using the “trick” of listing the maintenance minus the subsidy to deceive buyers. At least in description, first sentence, all in CAPS the agent mentions what the ACTUAL subsidy is. Really ridiculous that StreetEasy allows this. Oh, and I looked at the most recent sale for unit 8C, that hefty maintenance includes free firewood during the winter!

“The apartment comes with private storage and the building provides firewood for residents during the winters.”

Well I guess that certainly makes up for the maintenance and flip tax.

Speaking of coops on UES, this is a phenomenal deal:
https://streeteasy.com/building/1175-york-avenue-new_york/phb6

Can someone do the math on this one? I am math-challenged, but this strikes me as one that is priced to sell: https://streeteasy.com/building/3-east-71-street-new_york/2e

Wow - the neighbor of the one above just went into contract: https://streeteasy.com/building/3-east-71-street-new_york/4e
Price history is interesting. It looks like current sellers first listed it for sale in 2006 (!) for $1,350,000. It has been on and off the market a few times since then, and is finally in contract 18 years later at an ask of $1,050,000.
I don't understand how the maintenance in that building with only 46 units is so reasonable. A doorman cannot handle trash and cleaning, and maintenance seems too low to include additional staff to handle those jobs.

the apartment is less than 900 square feet. for that size the maintenance is not cheap, and it faces back
of building without a view or much light

And 5E sold for $1M in 2010
https://streeteasy.com/building/3-east-71-street-new_york/5e

So again, we are flattish to 14 year old prices except that rates & maintenance are both up more than wages.

maintenance and assessments are rising because the local law requires scaffolding and brick inspections every five years. the law should be changed to once every ten years. the cost of complying with that law is almost one million dollars for many buildings . Are we in the City spending almost a billion dollars a year to prevent one death from a falling brick every few years.

MCR, 4e had a price increase before went into contract, so strange.

I think these two bedrooms are interesting for under 1m. Yes, they are smaller, but the location next to the park is objectively amazing, and I am also surprised about the maintenance. It is similar to mine (slightly larger apartment, but in a lesser area, and in a building with a lot more units). Could it be that other units in this building are much larger and shoulder more of the burden?

The downpayment requirement is steep in % terms, but if an apartment is under 1m, the absolute amount might make sense for NYC buyers. Though I am against these large downpayments in principle, when mortgage is 7% a large downpayment is slightly less offensive.

@Krolik - maybe theres some other factors here like if they are conservative enough for 50% down payment, they also want you to have 100% liquid post close or something ?

No good explanation on the monthlies unless the building is in financial mess and they are going to ratchet up

This is also likely a no mortgage building.

But I thought real estate taxes alone in that area could be equal to the maintenance on the e-line apartments.

I looked at sales history in the building and I am now confused.

It appears that other similar size apartments or in the same line have sold for ~60% more in recent past.
https://streeteasy.com/closing/10989523

???

I could whip up a lot of enthusiasm for 3 E 71, on purely aesthetic and location grounds - protected southerly views, good looking building, good Roth floorplans, great UES location. The financials would bear close scrutiny -- there appear to be doctors' offices on the ground floor - wonder if they're owners or renters? Prior listings seem to want 50% down. Maybe there's an unnerving history of assessments?

@Aaron - good catch.. an income producing commercial tenant might explain the low monthlies given number of units & level of service.

Still unclear on the low prices, other than very conservative financial requirements and/or a ticking time bomb budget financial disaster lurking once you dig in.

Okay, digesting all the comments on 3 E71st, it appears that I am not the only one who is intrigued. I have added it to my "watch list," and the fun of this game is that those on this forum tend to stick around for years such that we can reconvene at a later date and see how the story ends.

Layout is unfortunately challenged re: kitchen. Small apartment. Price is right.