16 West 16th Street

Have you seen the interior in person? I don't think I've ever seen an apartment in worse shape. What's the co-op board like in terms of getting renovations approved? I thought it was basically uninhabitable until renovated. Aside from that, in terms of value I think its like the best house on the worst block. Most other apartments in 16 w 16th are studios and one bedrooms so I think that contributes to its problems.

Agree with buffet here. I saw that apartment and it is definitely a full gut reno. I mean, the owner should at least try to stage the damn thing. One of the bathroom showers is inaccessible because its used for storage for cying out loud. He's got ghastly track lighting and it's a marble floor in living room, with 20 year old carpet in the bed rooms. Ghastly mirrors everywhere that was a modern look in the early 80s. The subzero kitchen looks like it should be on antiques roadshow. Further, the balcony square footage is all but wasted. Most of it is about 2 feet wide which isn't really enough to do anything with. It you knocked down all the bushes the guy has planted, maybe you could actually enjoy a reasonable view. As it is, I think there are many better places for even this reduced price point, especially once you factor in the amount of $ you would need to put in.

Also, there's a hotel going up on west 15th street - hence many of the apartments at 16 W 16th are up for sale along with it's sister at 10 West 15th.

http://curbed.com/archives/2008/07/23/chelsea_too_late_to_fight_15th_street_condohotel.php

as mentioned above, we went to look at this and were clearly let down. the outdoor space is not that useful unless you want a smoke.

i was taken back by how bad this place looked in person. actually i have seen two others in worse shape, 321 and 319 west 14th. these were laughable. but this one comes a close third.

This property is troubled. It needs to be gut-renovated.The seller has been in and out of foreclosure, co-op board issues, etc.

I saw this place at least 2 years ago and it is as stated above. Looks much better in the pictures and the owner is obviously a little deranged. The broker had such attitude like she was doing us a favor showing it and that it would sell quick. I would say that $500k is what is needed for a total gut, so a price in the $1.3 - $1.5mm area is in-line and should sell around there.

Apt_Boy is likely closer to the mark with $1.3 IF it sold today. In 6 months an apt. like this that needs $500,000 reno will no doubt sell for even less. And for a place of this size, that cost of reno sounds about right. Even then though you end up with "best house on the block" situation as mentioned above. Big problem. Second problem is building is okay but not very attractive from outside and that can't change. Personally, I don't care for the block--St. Francis Xavier soup kitchen is a major turnoff for me. My last place was up the block from a different soup kitchen in Chelsea and the crowd was undesireable from any standpoint--drunks, homeless, flasher, mentally ill loitering about regularly; while not a safety issue per se, it didn't enhance the street in any way. Similarly, a school on the block isn't good either (Xavier is there too, isn't it?) with kids flooding in and out and being kids (loud) every weekday. All things being equal, I'd prefer a quieter block if I was to invest in the most expensive place in the building. Street is also in shadow 90% of the day, although the apt. would have decent light I imagine.

So what will happen here? It'll sit even longer. This place is just too much of a headache and carries too much risk in this market unless it is offerred at a firesale price.

I don't get the floorplan - how was it a 3 bedroom? Was the master previously 2 bedrooms?

i agree with basically everything written. i have seen the apartment and i, too, was shocked at the condition and the clear craziness. it was barely even cleaned for the open house. it is a deeply troubled listing, the building is a problem, the block is mediocre (although die-hard liberal that i am i can't really complain about the soup kitchen and school, those don't bother me). i certainly don't look at this as a three million dollar apartment going for a fire sale, nothing close to that.

that said, it is a true 3-bedroom (the master and master bath area is ample space for two bedrooms and a bathroom and a hallway and a dressing area/walk-in closet) with a lot of light and at least some outdoor space. the condition issues don't bother me; just factor them into the price and take care of them. the building is what bothers me because, as stated above, it can't be changed.

in a market like this, i basically divide apartments into two categories: "would live in it " and "wouldn't live in it" and more or less ignore the asking price. i can bid whatever i want. the question i am trying to figure out is whether this should be in the 'would live in it' category. there is so little in the village/south chelsea with three bedroom potential.

if one could get the apartment for, say, 1 million or 1.1 and then spend half a mil renovating, would it be a nice place to live? perhaps that's the better question.

The neighborhood bothers me - not a lot of restaurants or grocery stores in close proximity, very busy 5th ave traffic on weekends due to high commerce above 14th street, neighborhood is neither flatiron, nor village, nor chelsea - kind of no-man's land. The building bothers me - too many smaller units, a lot of turnover, post-war. You can customize the place to your specifications and order from fresh-direct, but you will still have problems unloading on the back-end. Then again, who knows - plenty of people like the Breevort...

HappyRenter, I think you ask a good question. When I looked at the building a year ago, I decided I didn't like the block or building enough to compromise on those things for a decent layout. It all just felt dated, dark, and sort of...ugly. I also see this as a potentially gracious 2-bedroom layout. 3 bedrooms if you turn the dining alcove into one of those "for the kid" tiny rooms which I hate since it screws up most of what makes the layout nice. I don't think the master suite lends itself to proper and aesthetic division into two bedrooms.

kylewest, i'm convinced :).

Buster...that area is considered Union Square, given the park is one block east of the building. I agree that there aren't tons of restaurants but literally one block east you have the Union Sq Cafe and Blue Water Grill. Could be worse.

Sizzlack, absolutely true, and I love USQ Cafe, but I meant more neighborhoody places.

That is for sure the one thing the neighborhood sorely lacks. Gotta go to Irving or like 8th Avenue to find those.

This apartment looks liked it hasn't been touched since 1972. And not in a good way.

Gonzo, b/t 6th and 7th on 13th, Cafe Riazor, lovely dive on 16th between 7th and 8th, Shaffer City, 21st and 5th, Bar Stuzzichini, B'way and 21st, Punch, B'way and 20th, tons of places but a lot of them are on side streets.

Grocery stores? Whole Foods? Amish place on 14th between 5th and 6th I believe.

The neighborhood and block are awesome, but the apartment sucks.
The bldg is pretty desirable, and maintenance is pretty good. The street is tree lined. I like the street and bldg but that's up to individual taste.

I have to disagree with buster on the neighborhood, at least as far as bars, restaurants and supermarkets go. You have the greenmarket in USQ + the options above from aboutready. There are tons of bars, lounges and restaurants within a 5 or 6 block radius and you are close to a lot of shopping without having it on your block. Added to that is the subway hub at USQ, which I think is the most convenient in the city (plus close to the PATH if you need it).

That said, the apartment is a nightmare. But I do think the neighborhood is a plus, not a negative.

msn, aside from the condition why do you say the apartment sucks? i mean, condition can be taken care of. if you like the building and the block i'd think you'd really like the apartment--as i said, condition aside.

and i agree, anyone who thinks this is an undesirable neighborhood is crazy. i shop at the greenmarket, whole foods, citarella on 6th avenue, there are great restaurants all over the place, unbeatable access to public transport. i don't love that particular block, but the neighborhood is fantastic.

because the apartment is a total gut job, the balcony has mature trees that haven't been pruned in years and totally destroy all light from entering. It is a mess and would require everything to be knocked out, including a lot of walls.

IF it were appropriately priced, it would be attractive for an ambitious and patient person. Co-op board is fairly reasonable for renovation requests, but this is at least a year project.

It is the block, not the neighborhood that is a problem. From a RE perspective, this is a relatively popular area. The Whole Foods and Union Sq. Cinema are 5 minutes walk which wasn't mentioned by others. There's good shopping and plenty of eating options. Yeah, its a bit gritty, but that's NYC. It is safe, vibrant, diverse.

The street is dark though and the other things I mentioned yesterday are what would give me pause. No need to go overboard and start in on the area which is really quite decent. Not picturesque in any sense, but neither is most of Chelsea/SoFi.

buster2056 - seriously, for someone to say 5th ave and 16th street is an undesirable area is a little ludicrous. Not a lot of restaurants or grocery stores in the area? Are you kidding me? Union square is a block away and there are tons of places on university below 14th street. Not to mention on 6th ave. Food emporium, garden of eden and whole foods are a block or so away (and all on the way to and from the subway) and trader joe's is not that far either. there are restaurants, coffee shops, shopping, public transportation, etc. Union square is one of the best subway stops in the city and you're also close to the orange line on 6th ave. The actual block aside (which i agree is not exactly ideal for the reasons mentioned above), this is probably one of the best and most central areas of the city to live in.

How hard is it to get rid of those trees? I feel bad killing them, but who the heck puts mature trees on a 6' wide balcony...that's just dumb.

Waverly, I agree, yank them. Also, I have to wonder if renovations might not get alot easier (as long as the building is amenable) in the upcoming months. Your contractor will be far less likely to be trying to juggle numerous jobs, the workers may show up regularly, your kitchen cabinets shouldn't be delayed by more than a few weeks, and you'll probably pay less for both materials and labor. You do get the apartment done the way you'd like it, although I realize this is not for everyone and sometimes its harder to deal with your own mistakes than someone else's. Of course, the price should be right, in this case, very right.

it is interesting to me that msn likes the building. i considered the building the biggest negative, actually--the "best house on a bad block" phenomenon. what do others think of this building?

I don't mind the building and I had looked at several apartments in it previously. I thought the lobby was nice and the staff seemed friendly. The maintenance is low, too.

I got married at St. Francis Xavier and while I don;t think the homeless at the soup kitchen are a danger, it is something to consider as the potential for a problem could be exacerbated by the struggling economy. I have never had a problem with any of the homless outside of this soup kitchen, in fact they have always been fine. That is a personal decision, however.

the maintenance on this unit just got bumped up to 2500 a month. that does not seem low.

Did it get bumped? If so, yeah, that is not too low.

the whole coop had all fees raised for 09

happyrenter, from other posts I seem to recall you're only interested in buying with a long-term time horizon (as am I, and as, I think, everyone should be). And since you're considering a 3-4 bedroom, I presume that time horizon includes kids. So...

While the Union Square area is fantastic, I don't love it for kids. No idea what schools are like there (others may comment), but it just doesn't feel family/residential to me, like UES, UWS, some areas of hell's kitchen, etc. Plus, while Union Square itself is very green, it's always packed and busy, I don't like the playground there, etc. Personally, I can much better see myself living there as a single 20something that with my family now. Just an opinion, but something you may want to consider.

thanks newbuyer. i've certainly considered that, but no, i am a down town guy. the public school zoned for the village and soho (and including this building) is one of the two or three best in the city. but more to the point, if a child's parent is miserable and bored out of his mind on the ues, that can't be good for the the child. if i wanted that sort of neighborhood i'd just go whole hog and move to greenwich.

i currently live on 5th avenue south of 14th street, which would be preferable, but i'm open to going up to 16th or 17th street.

also, to be honest i'm buying a place for myself. i'm not married, no kids. hopefully i'll buy a place big enough that i won't have to move instantly if and when i do get married, but the apartment is for me.

I just went to see this OH just for the hell of it. Its awful. It needs a serious gut renovation and it doesn't even feel 2,000 sq feet. Its weird space. I don't even think it will fetch this price. That being said, there were a few warm bodies in there.

PS - Newbuyer - its PS 41, great school. We have kids and I love this area for kids.

i think they counted the terrace in the square footage. there is no way the actual apartment is 2000 square feet.

I went to see this apartment last week. There were a ton of us waiting to see the apartment that were gathering downstairs, but all of us left shaking our heads. The apartment feels like 1600 SF, tops. This would have to be at $1M before I'd take on a gut renovation here. Lots of crap to rip out (anyone see the personal water heater hidden in the closet and the huge built in 1980s TV right over the bathtub?) and the terrace is just too small to be considered as part of the value equation.