Tips on Successfully Renovating An NYC Apartment

I gutted an estate classic 6 -- it took me 12 months from viewing to moving in... It was far more time than I could have imagined and I made a fortune off of it. That said -- I think the dynamics will shift here dramatically. There will be so much new or renovated product puking out onto the market that I am not sure it will be worth the expense, headache and a year of carrying costs to do it.

I thought about writing it up -- as you learn a ton from the process. I am not sure I would do it for an apartment again -- but I would like to build a weekend house from scratch. Same issue though -- with the unbelievable amount of property -- it seems like an unnecessary path.

Don't you always feel sad when you walk into a renovated kitchen and/or bath and it just doesn't work for you? Even built-ins in the living room (or elsewhere) generally make me sad. I don't think I'd do a full reno unless I was certain I'd be there for a good long time (at this point, I've done them in the past), but I have to say that I'm singularly unimpressed with some of the top of the line things I've seen.

Who thinks it's OK to have no overhead cabinets, or ones only with see through glass? Where is my pull out pantry, or pantry with pull-out shelves? If you have room, and a dining space, why the hell have you left unused space is a galley for one or two stools? Where is my larger refrigerator, pan drawers (a must for me now, I even put them in, along with a CD refrig and a pull-out pantry in my rental). Obviously these are things that make ME happy, they might mean very little to you. But if you use a kitchen regularly, you'll have things that really matter to you. So yes, I'd be happy to gut reno a kitchen for a lower price.

I'm going to go with trash removal is expensive, trash removal is expensive, trash removal is expensive AND you can't put wet over dry so talk to an architect or at least a realtor before you start doing fantasy bathrooms.

Knowing those two points alone is going to save renovators a word of hurt.

ali r.
{downtown broker]

kylewest,

It's really all about planning properly, isn't it? This isn't to scare anyone, but so much can go wrong that it can indeed turn into a bit of a nightmare if you don't do your homework. And especially for lofts and more open floorplans, you need to lay down a complete vision of the apartment and double-check with an architect/engineer, otherwise you risk renovating different sections of your home and having them clash horribly (and this is where having "too much" space can sort of work against you), or worse (see Ali's points above). So you may have a master plan for the kitchen, but think through how you'd like to renovate anything else before going through with it. Yes, bad jobs can be undone, but can be quite costly to do so.

We did quite a bit to our place in the past 18 months. We had the option of doing much of it while living there or moving out for the entire renovation process. The situation did not allow us to move out, so we had to reorganize the flow of the renovations to make that happen and it was not so pleasant living there during the renovations, even though it was "safe". My point is, you can always stay if you have to, but if you can manage to move out temporarily, I strongly advise it.

I have been through 2 renovations - both were gut jobs on the kitchen & bathroom, with minor cosmetic elsewhere (floors refinished, shoe molding installed, paint). The first, we did ourselves. It made me much less scared about the prospect of doing it again. It took us 2 months working evenings and weekends to gut renovate (down to studs and subfloor) the bath & kitchen. We paid a plumber to move a gas line and install the tub, an electrician to convert 2 110 volt lines to a 220 for a dryer, and a waste removal company to carry out the 4 foot high mountain of debris we accumulated. Everything else we did ourselves (with help from some handy folks in the family).

Some of the keys are excellent planning and great problem-solving skills. Also, you need to be decisive. The major factor in renovation delays is changing your mind, adding scope to a project in progress, and not making decisions (and purchases) up front. Make sure you pick out your paint, appliances, fixtures, tile, etc. up front and have them on hand before beginning the renovation. Waiting on an exotic marble slab or claw foot tub can totally blow your timeline.

Our second renovation, we used a fantastic contractor and the entire gut project lasted 5 weeks (with an additional week or so for stuff that we could live around). We love having a brand new bath and kitchen that suit our needs, so for us the time and hassle is worth it. Plus, we made a killing with the first apartment, and traded up to double the square footage in a nicer neighborhood. Those days may be behind us, but if you can get a great deal, you still may be able to build some value with a renovation.

OTNYC: "The major factor in renovation delays is changing your mind, adding scope to a project in progress, and not making decisions (and purchases) up front." So true! By doing this we kept overruns less than 3% of total job.

I know a cardinal rule of renovating is to never take the lowest price, but we did just that on our reno a few years ago, and couldn't be happier that we did. We had 3 quotes, all from contractors who came well recommended and whose work we saw. 2 were almost exactly the same, and the 3rd was about 1/3 less. We went with him, had very few problems, no cost overruns, liked the quality of the work. Would the other guys work have looked better? Perhaps a bit, but no where near the price differential.
And I can't be happier that we bought a run-down place and gut-reno'd it vs. buying an already renovated place. 1st, it forces you to put more $$ down since you have to meet the original down payment requirements of the co-op, and then you pour cash into it. 2nd, with the mkt crash and loan standards tough we'll likely live here a couple of years longer than anticipated, so having the place just the way you want it is priceless - people are going to have issues w/any apartment, so getting to live 5,7, 10 years in a place that works best for us is irreplacable.

Printer makes a good point; generally, if you interview a large enough sample size, you probably want to steer clear of the lowest bid(s). But when you are looking at a list of 3 bids that you are seriously considering and have done some due dilligence to cull a larger starting list of contractors, I don't know if the don't go with the lowest bid rule necessarilly applies. Getting serious estimates is a time-consuming process for you and the contractors, so it rarely makes sense to get more than 3. More importantly, make sure that before you get to an estimate stage with a contractor, you have called at least 6 references ranging over 3 or so years (recent references help you know if they are easy to work with, and older references help to make sure the work was of lasting quality), looked them up in the BBB, and if possible, visited a work site. There are probably some other rules of engagement I am forgetting, but the above worked pretty well for us. There are some good books to help guide you as well.

Thought this was interesting about kitchens from HouseBeautiful.com

http://www.housebeautiful.com/decorating/confessions-of-a-kitchen-designer

Nice nugget of a link. Thanks drdrd.

Re: low bids, common sense should prevail. As said in the linked article above, it is sounds too good to be true, it is. You will pay one way or another for a contractor that underbid the job. Instead of the contractor just making adjustments that are needed, you be seeing one change order after another as the contractor explains how something isn't in the initial bid. That's another reason to spend the time and money on excruciatingly detailed drawings up front and have them be incorporated into the signed contract/bid.

The worst situation to be in is to have a GC who realizes 1/4 of the way into the job that he underbid it. The next 3/4's of the job will be a tense tug-of-war with an increasingly unhappy GC trying to cut corners and get change order on one side, and you fighting the very person you need on your side to get a quality finished product.

If the bids come in at $190,000, $145,000, and $139,000, I would say the lower two bids are essentially the same and go with either of the two lower priced GCs based on factors other than price. But if you get three bids at $190,000, $180,000 and $140,000, I would want to really analyze where the disparities arose and go over those with a knowledgeable architect who could spot what numbers look suspicious or unrealistic (e.g., they should know what an electrician will cost more or less for the work specified, or see that the plumbing element of the 3 bids is very different and inquire of the GCs about that). Common sense has to prevail without being blinded by a desire to save money.

So how's YOUR kitchen doing, KW? Spill, spill .....

:). Kitchen installation is definitely one of the headache spots of a reno. No amount of planning addresses all measurement issues, details, appliance hook-up. An outlet is too low/high/far left, etc, the fridge protrudes too much and adjustments have to be made, the way the moulding turns an inside corner around a soffet has to be tweaked. Overall, pleased so far. "Adjustment" meeting this coming week.

More than other aspects of the reno, visualizing the finished kitchen is more difficult. Once a wall is framed for a new closet or reconfigured area, you can get a good feel for things to come if you have decent spacial reasoning skills. In the kitchen, until those countertops go on, it just looks messy I find.

But the sink arrived and it is perfect--deeper than I've had in the past, bigger, nicely proportioned corners. Faucet is gorgeous. My DNA seems to be drawn and enamored of all things polished nickel. Details on millwork is what I'd hoped for. Aim was to keep lines to a minimal in the relatively small galley space and not have a bunch of clutter that keep your eyes from settling down. I think I'm achieving that. Nice balance between custom detail to keep things from being dull and too sleekly modern but not so much that it gets fussy. Maybe when it is done I'll post a pic link. Having a very enthusiastic and cooperative kitchen designer and millwork company helps tremendously. Still, I find this the most stressful part of the reno so far.

Thanks for asking!

i just have to laugh reading this thread. 'faucet is gorgeous,' 'the way the moulding turns an inside corner.' if this is what you have to spend your time thinking about when you gut renovate an apartment then i am reminded why i would never gut renovate an apartment. a faucet does not need to be gorgeous (and, quite frankly, a showy faucet is tacky)--it is a utilitarian object and should be utilitarian. the criterion of a great faucet should be that it performs its function well.

to me, the ideal renovation is the gentle renovation: since i would only buy an apartment with charm and character, i would insist that the renovation preserve that character, tidy it up around the edges, and leave it as it is. prewar bathrooms should be resuscitated, not replaced. personally, i have no interest in a million-dollar kitchen; i like to cook, but a kitchen is a utilitarian space and it should be functional, not glamorous. i think central air is absurd--i have friends who live in a 9 room prewar apartment and four air conditioning units cool off the whole thing. high-tech wiring throughout an apartment is pointless: no apartment should have more than one television, an internet router can go anywhere, and even a spectacular stereo (which i have) can go on a bookshelf.

when i see apartments with enormous 'dream bathrooms' it just makes me lose all respect for the owners. plowing 100k into a bathroom just shows that you have nothing creative or useful to do with your money. it is a BATHROOM--a place to shit, shower, and shave. it should be clean, efficient, and well-made to prevent leaks, but the marble or 'tumbled stone' monstrosities are just horrible relics of this neo-guilded age.

an apartment should not be showy, it shouldn't pretend to be--or try to be--perfect. it's not an art gallery. it should be clean and bright, but should also feel lived-in. if you obsess over every dumb little detail, your apartment will be a stressful space, and that fastidiousness will end up stressing out your visitors. if you stay relaxed, and make your renovation relaxed, the space will be relaxed.

Happy, luv, I think you miss the point. I'm with you, in that a lot of this showy consumption is foolish, but I've 'known' KyleWest long enough that I strongly doubt that is what he has done here. He is redoing his kitchen & any redo/decor is a puzzle with many many small details that come together for a pleasing whole. I'm thrilled that KW is getting such pleasure from his home & its' significant expense & I thank him for sharing that with me. Now apologize & lay off the coffee. (wink)

Oh, happy. You took grumpy pills this a.m.! "Gentle renovation" means little if the pre-war you bought has a formica 1973 kitchen. Renovating with inset cabinets, black and white checkerboard floor, polished nickel hardware, period faucets could be wonderful. If the wiring runs in conduit on the walls around the entire place because someone was too cheap to do a proper upgrade 30 years ago, one might want to fix that. Same with ugly TV cable stapled over doorways and around walls. Put the modem anywhere, but how nice if the wire comes out of the wall where you put it and isn't snaked under all the furniture and messy. And if a maid's room isn't needed (or 3 of them are too much), the some reconfiguring could really enhance the place with an added office or bedroom or full laundry room, or gift wrapping room if that works for you.

For me, I think you misunderstand. A simple, retro faucet isn't so simple to find. And it should feel good in the hand, function well, not feel and look cheap. It ought to honor the apartment's aesthetic. Finish work in a reno is key or the rest will not come together right. Mouldings are important aesthetic parts of the job. In older apts you have to often strip them or replace them because they've been so destroyed over the years. Doorknobs and hinges need replacing--not with glitz, but with quality (check out Samuel Heath, for example, or to keel over from sticker shock see a company like Nanz or SA Baxter... http://www.sabaxter.com/catalog/door_knobs/). It is part of making the place your own. Enjoy closet lights that come on when you open the door? Put those in, too! Why not. The best prewar I lived in had those and I loved it, so I put that into my current reno.

Oil poly on floors yellows over time but is somewhat harder. Do you want that or more easily applied water based poly that will not yellow. What floor color enhances the overall decor you plan? Do you want thresholds in the doorways between rooms or just have the floor transition without them, even if the boards change direction? Would the entry be enhanced by making it slightly wider without that closet you don't need, or would the bedroom work better for you by eating into the space a bit and making a real walk-in closet? Can some good electrical work rid the place of ghastly track lights and replace them with period style lighting such as many fixtures from Hudson Valley Light for example?

These decisions are what a reno of a place can take. It's a labor of love and joy--not stress--most of the time when organized and planned and when you hire the right people. That isn't to say it is easy. And as mine wraps up, I'm very focused on the details as this is where the vision all comes together.

And the faucet is indeed gorgeous to touch and use. Like a little 1950's idea of a robot inspired it. http://www.rohlhome.com/products/products.aspx?type=3&cat=16

HR: The number of prewar apts that I've seen that would benefit from a light hand - I've only seen 1 or 2 in 11 years. Layers and layers of paint over moldings, electrical cables, piecemeal reno over the years, damaged floors, broken tiles, flaking bathtubs - and the main issue is that you can't buy parts to fix the whole. In addition, there are sometimes infrastructural issues that need to be addressed (plumbing electrical).

nyc10023,

we must either be looking at different apartments or have very different standards. a flaking bath-tub? all that requires is refinishing. broken tiles? all that requires is retiling. layers of paint on the moldings? they an be stripped off or the moldings replaced--doesn't require a gut renovation to do that. damaged floors? depends what kind of damage we are talking about but IMHO the floors would have to be horrendous to warrant replacement. prewar floors are generally beautiful and even if damaged can be rehabilitated. i've not seen one prewar apartment that would require new floors.

as for electrical cables, are you referring to electrical problems or simply to exposed wires along moldings? because if it is the former that's a big problem, but the latter is not. either bury them under the moldings or leave them be. i was in a magnificent prewar ten room apartment on 5th avenue recently, in great shape, and the wires were just tacked onto the moldings and over door frames in several rooms. who cares? you're looking at the view and at the picassos, not inspecting the moldings.

everything you just mentioned sounds to me like a light hand is exactly what's needed.

kylewest,

look, if your hobby is finding the perfect faucet then more power to you. i'm an extremely aesthetic person, as it sounds like you are, and when things aren't right it bothers me. but a utilitarian object ought to be utilitarian: with a faucet, form should follow function and if it works properly then it's good faucet, end of story.

enhancing an entrance by removing a closet is fine if, again, you think it is really going to make a big difference in your life and is worth the hassle and the money. that's my point. it's your time and your money and you are welcome to do what you want with it. it's just the yuppy entitlement of the conversation i find so funny. closet lights that turn on when you open the door? i mean, is that really necessary? it sounds annoying to me, quite frankly, and like something that will break and then require an electrician to fix. a simple switch works perfectly well.

i agree with you that any work done in an apartment should be high quality and that cheap hinges or such things would be a big mistake. but if there are cheap hinges already there working perfectly fine then what's the problem? ain't broke, don't fix. and more to the point, replacing a hinge is not exactly a gut renovation.

as for 'why not' do every little thing to make the apartment perfect, there are two reasons: time and money.

I guess if you don't mind a few months of somewhat less free time and can spend money that won't make a big difference in the long run to your life in return for a nest you love being in, we agree it is a worthy endeavor!

"closet lights that turn on when you open the door? i mean, is that really necessary?"

If you have to ask, it means you have never had them. Once you have them you love them. Of course they are essential, I would not buy a place without them. I can't imagine why someone doing a high-end renovation would not put them in.

If I am spending millions on an apartment, the closets better damn well light themselves up!

I like reading about other people's differing priorities.

Re: closet lights, a good compromise between tearing up door frame and walls for a switch, and living with pull-chain, is a little euro-size wireless switch attached to the inside frame.

Re: WireMold, one of my circuits is unobtrusive so I let it be. For another circuit the landlord ran a 240V Wiremold for AC the length of the living room above the baseboard, gouging out window frames in the process. That one I converted to 120V and am burying new cable, restoring window frames, etc. Will finish any decade now....

kylewest,
cute, but no. if a glow in the dark closet is the difference between being happy and being miserable, then obviously it is worth the money. anything is worth it if not having it will make you miserable. the question is why a closet that lights up like a christmas tree is the difference between happiness and misery.

if i am spending millions on an apartment, modern, i am hopefully going to retain enough perspective to realize that every idiotic little convenience that my mind can conjure up ought not be necessary on top of the hopefully fantastic apartment i have spent million on. that's the entitlement i am talking to "those closets better damn well light themselves up!" you are entitled to glow in the dark closets?

I'm living in a place built in 1975 and we have closet lights that turn on automatically. I think that they are original, and they work great. Actually it is a very almost decadent small luxury that I appreciate each day, especially when my wife does not see me in the closet and she closes the door!

Flaking bathtub - reglazing; BTDT - doesn't work.
Replacing broken vintage/prewar tiles - impossible to find a match, BTDT.
Stripping moldings, and restaining/repainting - very, very $$$, if you're talking plaster, GL on finding a plaster artisan. Replacing mouldings, not cheap or easy, especially if walls are uneven.
Damaged floors - very hard to repair and not have it be obvious, BTDT.
Stripping vintage kitchen cabinets and adding a couple for storage- $$$, BTDT.

HR: I know these sound like small fixes but they get very expensive and sometimes impossible in NYC if you can't find the right artisans.

kyle, I am so glad that your kitchen is turning out as you hoped and planned and dreamed -- thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

ali r.
[downtown broker}

My gosh. In all my Streeteasy imaginations, I never dreamed so many people had views on how a closet should (or should not) light up! LOL. It cracks me up! To beat a dead horse, my b/f is good about closing doors, but terrible about shutting of lights. I hate leaving lights on all day long. The little button gizmos that turn the closet lights on and off will solve that little source of tension.

The closets I installed the things in were built during the reno, so adding the feature was a pretty minimal added expense. The frames has to be built anyway, and the ceilings had to be rewired for a new light regardless, so this made sense over having a string dangling down in the middle. It was, as skippy said, a little luxury.

Ali, thank you.

And FWIW, I'm pouring money into the economy with this reno doing my part to help us out of the recession! Don't I get some credit for that happyrenter? I think you get very serious when it isn't called for sometimes. I never said I couldn't be happy without the things we're including. I think overall I'm actually one of the happiest people I know despite the God-awful, unimaginably sad, cruel and at times outright evil things I deal with for a living in service of the people of the city I love waking up in and am grateful to be a part of. But I've never had any of these little touches in the homes I've lived in here, and am excited to create a home and to include some indulgences that make me and my partner smile. I think you can stop and smell the roses and also have closet lights and be a balanced person. I'll leave a monk's life to monks.

a monk's life kylewest, cute again. it certainly is monasterial to live in a luxury greenwich village apartment without light-up closets. :)

nyc10023 you think re-glazing bathtubs doesn't work? funny, because i bathed in a re-glazed tub for five years and never had a problem. anyway, everything you mentioned only goes to demonstrate why i think a gentle remodel is best, and you don't. we have different ideas of what an apartment should be like.

happy, you and I disagree regularly on the general and finish quality we find acceptable in a home. as you probably recall we both saw the same lower fifth ave apt a few weeks ago: you thought the bathrooms were fine, i thought they required a complete gut reno. it's just a taste difference i think. i'm not saying you are wrong any more than i am right. anyone reading can certainly take from either one of us whatever they find more nearly tracks their own expectations of a space. :)

that's for sure. it just surprises me that someone who is willing to pay the extra freight to live in the village doesn't like a prewar bathroom and needs a light-up closet. seems like a mis-match of taste (i associate those kind of fixtures with orlando or at the very least 3rd avenue on the upper east side). to me, the quality comes from the charm, the bones, and the history--which is why i think they should be preserved rather than approximated with soulless, retro imitation. but taste is taste and to each his own.

hey kyle,
rather than argue, how about you help me out. if you were looking to spend up to $3 million (but, obviously, open to spending a lot less) on an apartment in the village right now, what would you buy? include renovation cost.

Happy, I just don't share your idealized vision of prewars. I LIVED in 30 Fifth for goodness sake. I lived in another on lower fifth as well. They ARE are prewars and I'm not speaking without knowledge. The 30 FIfth apt had lights that went on in the closet when the door opened! That actually WAS a feature in some prewars! This is a silly argument. I'm not imitating Louis XVI when I say I think closet lights are nice; it just isn't the big deal you are making it.

When old moulding is just beaten to hell and unsalvageable from decades of paint and botched alterations or stapling of wires to it, there is no shame in lovingly seeking an identical or nearly same replacement. The goal isn't to convince one's self a hovel is charming. And some prewar apts are hovels, quite frankly. In addition, some were built for a different way of life: armoires instead of closets; communal dining rooms and in-house restaurants for "room service" instead of full kitchens; fewer bathrooms than we expect today because they were seen as declasse in the early decades of the 1900s. And what of the warren of maid's rooms? You think it doing violence to change the floor plan by converting those to offices or additional living space and turning awkwardly located 1/2 baths to laundry facilities? Those aren't "gentle" upgrades. You start on that and you are in the $100,000s before you know it!

I'd love to take a classic six and restore it to glory and gently update it in ways that honor the beauty of the original design, but I can't afford that. And the one bedrooms I can comfortably afford in prewars are just too small or have too many compromises I'm unwilling to live with (like kitchens that aren't kitchens because the apartments weren't really built with kitchens as we know them today, or views of an alley or airshaft because the larger apts got the better views). For the money I could spend, I got an estate condition mid-century (1950s) jr-four that I've been able to reno to release all its potential with the kinds of materials and design choices consistent with 1930s-50s design but updated so as not to simply worship anacronism (e.g., I opted for a custom tempered glass shower wall versus a shower curtain; walk-in bedroom closet versus larger living space in bedroom).

I don't know what apartment work for you for $3MM. You tell me. I found my home. But I admit it, I still love looking. You don't like the Brevoort East, I know, but for those who do, have you seen the new estate sale 1000 sq/ft-/+ jr-four w/ sunroom on 11th fl listing at $875K! And the seller is flexible! And there is a 6th Floor unit for around $775K--estate and very motivated to unload the place which is about 800+ sq/ft. Great potential deals to be made for 1 bedroom seekers who can deal with the high maintenance and are willing to do a large renovation (floors, kitchen, bath, etc). A year ago units like the 11th floor one were selling at $1.2MM or so. Both have awesome light and great bones for this price point. On the other hand, for the same money in a lower fifth prewar, for $799K you can have a 500 sq/ft one bedroom at 30 Fifth with good views of 5th Ave in incredibly gracious building (with a bizarre board of creeps, but still a nice building). It's just what works for each person.

I can't say that we've looked at the same apts, HR, so I don't know how different our tastes are. I just ripped out a bathtub because the reglazing (which cost the same as a new tub) didn't work. I'm not looking to sell now but I know that if I had to, that chipped bathtub would cost me a lot more than the $600 I'm paying for its replacement.

There seem to be quite a few lower Fifth prewar apts on the market now - I don't know all the street numbers, but aren't there a ton at 11, 31, 41, 51?

I really like the 6-room (12B?) at 51 Fifth Ave.

That's a perfect example of where happyrenter and I diverge. I couldn't stand the bathrooms and all those doors from room to bath to room to bath to room... And the laundry area was awkward and ugly, the kitchen was a gut 1970s formica mess, and the old maid's room is an odd room off dining area now with a full bath off other wall in dining room. It could be okay but you better have bucks to spend. I don't know why happy wasn't thrilled with this one. For me, the non-existent quality of finishes (walls, mouldings, kitchen, baths) meant about $400K of renovation. I think happy felt this one was just terrific as is except agreed kitchen could use updating.

Happy - you've never shopped for a faucet, have you. I'm with Kyle, exceedingly difficult to find one that works well, looks nice, fits with the rest of your fixtures and costs less than $800.

I heart OTNYC--s/he understands.

kylewest,

clearly you love looking which is why i asked if you had any suggestions for me in my price range in our neighborhood. i would buy the six room apartment at 1 5th, but the sellers are totally inflexible to the point where they are going to take it off the market rather than sell it for a price i'd be willing to pay. other than that i am still waiting and seeing. but i was curious if you had any suggestions, that's all.

it's no big deal, we just have different taste. i think a shower curtain works great, and i think 2.5 baths in a six room apartment is more than enough--maybe my taste matches the early 19th century. i can't abide these apartments with 1/3 of the space allocated to huge and numerous bathrooms.

the prices are falling quickly in the brevoort, and i think they could fall a lot. the building just doesn't have a nice feel to it, you know? it feels so dowdy and dated. the public areas remind me of the old age homes my grandma refused to move into. but for someone who really wants to be in the village in a 1 bedroom i would keep an eye on it and see how cheap things get.

$800 for a faucet? either you are out of your mind or you are joking. you can get a perfectly lovely, perfectly functional, brand-name faucet in basically any style you want for under $100. how much did you spend renovating your bathroom, 200k? $800 faucet, i can't stop laughing.

i don't like the apartment at 51 5th because of the windows: apparently as a compromise with landmarking the building put in windows with fake plastic mullions between the double panes. it's so tacky i can't look at it and it would just drive me crazy to have to look through those things every day. a window should either have real mullions, no mullions, or, at worst, fake wooden mullions on both the inside and outside of the windows. fake plastic mullions between the panes are disgusting.

you can get a quite high end package including the faucet for the bathroom sink, the tub, the shower, and the kitchen for $600. $800 for ONE faucet?

I suspect you have quite different tastes from us. I am as cheap as they come, but even I can't stomach the faucets that you can get for under $100. Not to mention the engineering of the valves for the under-$100 faucets. And yes, I am cognizant of the fact that Slumdog Millionaire types live on $100/year.

so you are endorsing the $800 faucet?!?!?! dude, if you buy an $800 faucet you cannot claim to be cheap.

by the way, i am assuming that you aren't buying the faucet retail or through a decorator who marks it up 500%. if you do minimal shopping around you can very easily get faucets for at least 40% off.

Somewhere in between. I wouldn't buy an $800 faucet, but I know that I wouldn't buy one under $100. Have you ever shopped for faucets? I am very cheap - I pick up pennies off the street, and in taxis but I also like pretty things and unfortunately have never seen a pretty kitchen faucet (subjective, of course) for under $100. Really. I challenge you to post some links.

There are many, many "discount" stores online that offer 40% off but you have to be careful as a lot of times they don't have things in stock and can't deliver but too late, you've been charged (BTDT).

If you're really in the market for a faucet, the big plumbing shops (Davis Warshaw) in and around NYC are decent in price - they will give you a contractor discount & match the online prices w/o the hassle.

we're talking about bathroom faucets, not kitchen faucets.

yes i've shopped for faucets, and i also like beautiful things--hey, you're talking to a guy who spends $10k per year on his opera habit. i think it's appropriate to be selectively cheap. i just think that a utilitarian object is just that, and should not pretend to be more than it is. a simple, functional, $100, brand name faucet is more than adequate.

There you go with "adequate" again, happy. Why not just attend high school musicals instead of opera? It is a play, it has actors and sets and people singing? It isn't the same, though, right? Because the experience is qualitatively different.

A faucet (OMG this is a retarded discussion) is something you handle everyday--that is, experience. You touch it many, many times a day. Why is it so bad to elevate it beyond "adequate" to something that actually provides pleasure? The proportion of the design, the quality and richness of the finish, the perfect mix of resistance and smoothness when you turn the handles, the crispness of the casting? A Delta from Home Depot is not a Jaclo or Jado or California Faucet--and these are reasonable compared to nutso prices of Waterworks or Perrin & Rowe. And you know what else? I could tell the difference between the Delta and any one of these blindfolded.

Same with door knobs. LOOK at the link above to SA Baxter knobs and tell me anything from Baldwin at Home Depot comes close in beauty. And if you start telling me beauty doesn't matter in life, then there really is no point to this. But I doubt you'll say that--you love opera, so how can you not appreciate beauty. Don't be so critical of those who find it in other places in addition to the stage at the Met.

where is agent liar when we need her? she would tell us that the faucet cost $9,000...then we could have a really good time.

lmao!

Kylewest - couldn't agree more on doorknobs. There are so many beautiful doorknobs out there. Have you ever looked at the ones by Columbo - don't really suit my place, but I love them. I ended up doing Valli doorknobs everywhere. Psst, don't tell HR how much they'd cost. He'd have a fit. Way less than decent season tickets to Met.

happy - good luck my friend. my point in making the 800 comment was that they are TOTALLY overpriced which is what makes it difficult. when you shop for a faucet in the city, you basically have 3 options - your local hardware store, home depot, or the high end spots in the ues & flatiron. the bowery has a ton of plumbing supply stores as well, but they typically don't like dealing with retail customers. so the local hardware store is going to stock 3 or 4 options which you will probably hate. then you will look at one of the high end spots and tell them they're out of their minds. then you will go buy something from home depot which will be out of stock. they will mail it to you and it will arrive a week later. your contractor will attempt to install it and will find that there is a part missing. you will order a replacement which will arrive a week later and will be a different metal finish than the rest of your fixtures. at this point it will be too late to do anything but deal with a brushed nickel faucet while everything else is polished chrome. 2 months into using it, you will find that something with it will REALLY bug you because it will start leaking, take a crooked lean, etc.

i am sure you did an internet search for fixtures to come up with the "bathroom set for $600". good luck getting any of it to work for longer than a week. i have gut renovated 2 places, the 1st entirely by myself with my wife. i am as cheap as anyone and would go nuts when my wife spent over 100 bucks on anything. she would retort, "fine, if you can find it any cheaper, be my guest". and guess what - that stuff you see on the internet for the great prices? if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. so don't take my word for it - go ahead and spring for the $600 fixture set. see where you are in 6 months.

i got some great advice some years ago - anything with moving parts is usually worth paying more for. and if you've ever had to take a faucet apart to figure out why the f'in hell it keeps leaking, you'll know that a faucet has many moving parts.

Agree with your points, OTNYC. Also, as I alluded, I have been ripped off by one online merchant (still in business) - they had the lowest prices but they couldn't deliver. Paid by cc online, charged immediately, still waiting for parts 5 months later, and no delivery date given (order probably never placed with distributor). I then bought the same thing online, but a merchant with a RL store as well with the item in stock. Paid $50 but lost time (which cost me more).

HR: I have taken kitchen faucets, bathroom faucets and shower valves apart. Even a "brand name" $100 shower valve can be impossible to fix because of the way it is made.

Columbo knobs look very nice nyc10023. Like the Valli handles very much--see and touch them at Simon's Hardware whenever I stop in. More modern a look than the more traditional I went with. I did look at Nanz, got their catalogue (looks like an Hermes album), but couldn't get a bead on prices. Apparently they keep virtually nothing in stock and actually cast things to order. A friend doing a house had her designer look into it and the price of a passage set was four digits! Made Heath look like a bargain.

nyc10023,

i'm sure a $100 faucet can be impossible to fix. and guess what? a $1,000 faucet can be impossible to fix. anyway, no use arguing about it. if you guys really get pleasure out of thousand dollar doorknobs what can i say? spend your money on thousand dollar doorknobs. as i said before, IMHO a mass-produced utilitarian object ought not pretend to be more than it is. the purpose of a doorknob is to open and close a door. if it does that effectively, is durable, and blends in with the rest of the apartment then it is as good as a doorknob can be. if people are staring at the doorknob and oohing and aaaahing over it, that's a problem.

kyle, i really hope you aren't comparing bathroom faucets to the opera. as i said, i appreciate quality, well-made utilitarian objects. but please don't compare them to art.

Sadly happy, there is art all around you and you are missing it by dismissing and categorizing it with words like utilitarian.

We gut renovated an apartment (classic 6) and were really happy with GC and architect. Main advice: 1) we got the GC reference through a friend (and this one happened to come in at 1/3 discount from others)--try to get references through friends. 2) be prepared to do work that you might think the hired folks should do--I measured everything in the apartment to make sure of things like a) specific furniture pieces would fit, b) kitchen preferences will fit c) closet bars were designed in a way to maximize storage... (I even measured the length of our hanging clothes to determine whether we could accomodate a top and lower bar, etc). I don't regret one second of time I put into that because we really got what we wanted/needed.
We went around to several stores to look at, measure, and learn about kitchen appliances. The research time was worth it, even though in the end we decided we wanted our GC to buy the stuff for us (which, if you use an architect, you will learn that whatever is in the GC price will be the basis for the architect's percentage fee).
We had central air installed as well as skyline windows and a audio system.
We went for broke, essentially putting anything into the bones of the apt. we might ever want, so as not to ever have to rip anything up again.
It took 11 months; we were on site every week or more--we were very hands on. I did much internet research and shopping (e.g., cabinet knobs/pulls, bathroom fixtures). The internet was wonderful for learning about all the options.

We are delighted with the results and hope you will be too.

kyle,

come on man. i'm not dismissing anything. a faucet is a utilitarian object--that's what it is and what it is meant to be. it's beauty, such as it is, is in it's ability to successfully perform its function. how can you disagree with this? isn't 'form follows function' the design mantra of the modern era? i don't think you can say that louis sullivan and later modern architects were unable to appreciate the beauty of design and architecture because they believed this. as i said before, i am all for a well-made and pleasing utilitarian object. but it should never be forgotten that that is what it is.

That's like saying opera is nothing but a bunch of cackling crows on a stage (I happen to love opera). To each their own happy, live and let live.

happy, you make no sense. The designer's you cite took the function and elevated the form to art. The form celebrates the function and can do so in a beautiful way. The manner of "celebration" differs vastly from say Delta at the low end to Rerrin and Rowe at the higher end. Neither ignores function. Polished nickel crossbar handles are as functional and simple as it gets and yet still can be artful. A hose spigot works fine for $.79. Why don't we use them in the bathroom by your logic? Because they are ugly. That is why. Why doesn't everyone spend $.29 on cabinet and drawer pulls that work EXACTLY the same as pulls that cost $2.00 or $10.00 or $100.00? In a hundred years the cheapest pull will function as well as the most expensive. They are utilitarian objects and by your logic the cheapest should do. A light fixture for $19.00 works as well as one for many times that. So do you just fill the home with Home Depot $19.00 ceiling fixtures or do you seek to go beyond the utilitarian aspect of generating light to also seek a form that is pleasing?

No one has suggested a faucet, for example, be disguised to look like a silly radio obscuring its purpose and impeding its function. But once you perfect the functional aspects, there are design aspects that do matter. I don't know why you are taking such a strong position on these things. The whole conversation started with a suggestion that it takes some work to find something beautiful within a budget that AVOIDS paying top dollar. No one has said spend all you can to the point of obscenity. But esseticism is not the only logical choice if function is to be valued.

Kyle - sounds like your apartment was a labor of love - I hope you are enjoying it! When I bought, I gut-renovated mine retaining the characteristics that I could while replacing the unsalvagable/undesired in the spirit of what the apartment should be. There were many headaches and hurdles, but it was so worth it in the end. God is in the details.

and then i wonder why building materials and appliances didn't come down significantly as i expected... it might be cause there are a lot of people like kylewest around. with the money (which source is not at risk) and an inclination to "overpay" for nice stuff (this in comparison to my spending patterns as the infamously cheap person i happen to be).

conclusion: after 2 and a half years of housing bust it is still not the best time to build a house given that an ok faucet cannot be bought for less than $100.

Not sure what you are wishing for, admin. Deflation? Yeah, that'll be great for everyone. Not sure how you define "overpay" other than "that which someone else buys that I can't afford."

Intensive searching for best prices, obtaining "trade discount" through lots of negotiating with vendors, web forums, internet searches, showroom visits, etc. actually were kind of fun and helped me save a fortune over using a designer who would mark things up or my architect for these things. Having a strong design sense and the time to do the work yourself (and willingness) can add up to huge savings--far from "over-paying." Just gotta be smart about it.

kylewest,

"no one has said spend all you can to the point of obscenity." oh no? i guess it all depends on whether you consider an $800 faucet for a bathroom sink obscene.

why would a person spend $100 on a drawer pull? because that person has too much money and not enough creativity.

your idea of 'form follows function' seems to be that once something performs its function, then spend as much as you want creating a beautiful form. that's just not the meaning of the phrase and i think you know that. i never said 'the cheapest should do,' and my logic doesn't imply that. my logic is that a utilitarian object should achieve perfection by performing its function as conveniently, durably, simply, unobtrusively, and efficiently as possible. the perfect form will be the one that best reflects the essence of the object and allows it to perform in the ways i mentioned. and, yes, the economic efficiency--the ratio of the cost to the performance--is a factor in the quality of the product.

as for lighting, ummm, part of the function of lighting is to disperse pleasant light. that should be obvious. but another purpose is to use minimal electricity and materials, another is to be flexible, to turn on and off easily, to dispense light to the proper areas of the room. all of these are question of function, and again, the best form will be the one that best achieves these functions.
asceticism is really not on the table here, so let's leave it aside.

by the way, the argument above was that cheap faucets didn't work well. if so, then they violate my logic rather than fulfilling it. if it is true, as you say, that a $50 faucet works as well and is as durable as an $800 one, then all the more absurd to spend $800 on a faucet.

"Not sure how you define "overpay" other than "that which someone else buys that I can't afford." "

hey, don't be so defensive. you clearly took it the wrong way. i meant overpay using what i'm willing to pay as a benchmark (which of course, i recognize, it's not much). LOL, that's all!

about "what i'm wishing for?" let's say that in any bubble like the one we had the ugly pleasure to be witness/victims/happy participants ... the rampant increase does not only includes home prices, but also labor. i would only like great quality of labor, which was hard to find during the bubble, for ex, during the bust is not only cheaper but more readily available. inflation also shows up on land AND materials.

land and labor already adjusted downwards significantly (and will keep on falling). but that did not happen with materials and appliances as much as i expected. so i was wondering why. people still think about remodeling or upgrading their homes with an eye on the "return" they'll get on the "investment", for example. so that doesn't help towards bringing materials back to normal prices. i'm planning on building a home on land i already have that's well built so that my grandkids and their kids can live there if they want to. i don't want to pay bubble prices for it, and i want the best labor/materials possible. that's all i'm wishing for. does it sound crazy? too much to hope for? i don't have any time pressure so timing this makes a useful mental exercise.

by the way, i know of some people that took a designer license to get stuff like faucets at a discount. did you go that route too? was it useful if so?

"overpay" other than "that which someone else buys that I can't afford."

this assumes implicitly that if you can you HAVE to consume, that you have no choice but to open your wallet just cause you can. watch out, that's not a useful mentality to have when it comes to your finances.

admin,

great point.

DISCOUNTS: as far as taking a designer license formally? No. I found I didn't have to, although I was prepared to.

1. Most places in this market, with some cajoling and indication that i knew such pricing was available, extended it to me quietly.

2. Some wanted my architect's card, which my architect said was fine for me to provide; those vendors were completely willing to ship to me and let me pay but to give me the trade discount.

3. Others based discounts on volume so being a designer didn't matter at all.

4. Some vendors will extend discounts to designers who provide business cards and/or letterhead even without a tax resale number. Do with that information what you will.

What is useful to understand so you don't just make a nuisance of yourself is that certain licensed designs and the like have prices firmly set by the manufacturer (e.g., Herman Miller and other Knoll designers). So whether you buy a Herman Miller desk from ABC, Design Within Reach, or over the internet, the price will be exactly the same. Where there is some flexibility is on things like shipping fees and delivery charges which are set by the individual merchants.

I found that for the most part, no matter what I was buying, just asking for a 10% discount was almost universally agreed to (except for the licensed designs). With some work, more of a discount is often available.

thanks kylewest! very useful info.

I second kylewest's advice. I've always gotten the trade discount on plumbing parts.

This thread is hilarious and I only made it halfway through. Lets go back to public latrines. I think it would be good for the economy. I have no problem pooping in public!

:)

I'm with you uwsmom, hell, let's just let's go back to an open sewer system, between that and people refusing to immunize their kids, NYC should be back to a managable size in less than 50 years.

Chamber pots worked fine 200 years ago, we shouldn't dismiss this prewar detail so lightly in our race to update.

about building materials, here's an update. centex CEO just said they went down 17% during the last 3 months... affordable materials are making a come back! (not sure that will also include super luxurious and pleasurable to the touch door knobs)

I have the classic egg-shaped doorknobs by Valli2 everywhere, but I still have cheapo hinges. Craving replacement of hinges with nicer ones.