Something doesn't add up

Possibly at play here is fact that all buyers are not created equal. Your finances and likelihood of passing board (if this is a coop) may have been better enough to marginally tip things in your favor. Also, if other bidder was more of a headache to deal with, that may have been factored in. But these things only weigh so much and the money may have won out for the seller. The last thing a seller wants is to take the place off the market for 1.5 months only to find the board rejects the buyer and now it is back to square one in a deteriorating market.

Or the broker is... OMG... is it possible... LYING to get a deal done.

You should sit back and wait based upon your comment that you (and your broker) think you are paying too much. If they come back, I'd cut the price, if they don't, there are (and will be more) tasty fish in the sea of apartments for sale. Move on to the next.

This is a common broker trick. Figure at least 80% of the time when they say they have a better offer (Many times they claim "all cash"), they are flat out lying. Brokers generally seem to think it is ok to lie on behalf of their clients, the sellers.

In this market, you should not be in a bidding war, make your offer, stick to it, move on if you don't get it, every day there are more choices for sale. I agree with the previous poster, that if they now come back to you, LOWER your offer, as their bluff was called and you were the only bidder.

They were lying.

By the way, in response to your comment: "I thought about this, and my offer was already higher than what me and my broker figured the value to be, so I stuck by my final."--You did the right thing. The only suggestion I'd make is that you NEVER should have gone over what you thought the value to be. Don't give the sellers one extra cent. This will be a very long and painful recession. In 12 months, the sellers may facing foreclosure if they insist on trying to get an absurd price.

Thanks for the insight. I thought that this might be some sort of broker trick, but I wasn't sure. Why play games in a market like this? To me, the logical thing to do would be to take the money and run with it before the value of the apartment falls even further. My broker made sure to give the seller's broker a detailed breakdown of how we determined the value of the apartment and point out that I was over that value because I'm a serious buyer. Are brokers really willing to turn me away to get an extra 3K? This is why I do suspect that there really is another buyer, but he may potentially not be well qualified for a loan or to pass the board or whatever...

It's too bad. I really did like the apartment alot. Hopefully the deal falls through. The seller's broker asked me if I would like to be considered as a back up and I agreed.

Btw, regarding there being more tasty fish in the sea, I have to admit, I'm having a hard time finding them. Most of the apartments that I've seen have some major glaring flaw which keeps it on the market. Maybe I just need to exercize more patience and wait for the market to get worse. This particular apartment was one that I really liked, and was (almost) able to negotiate into my price range.

"It's too bad. I really did like the apartment alot. Hopefully the deal falls through. The seller's broker asked me if I would like to be considered as a back up and I agreed."

At the same price your offered? Seems like you should have countered with, "OK, but 3K lower than my best offer" !

mj201 - you will find another apartment you like, but sometimes 3k is worth it to get a place you love. we ended up letting a place go about 2 years ago, not because we couldn't agree on a price but because we were too chicken to pull the trigger without first selling our place. we still talk about how perfect it was to this day, even though we ended up buying another great apt in a great neighborhood. an apartment is a home first, an investment second.

As far as whether they are lying, I am betting against it. Despite what people here may tell you, most brokers are generally decent people that are trying to make a living and realize that integrity is a large component of long-term success in their field. You may get another shot at the place and if you truly love it, I would say go for it.

And you are absolutely right - inventory numbers are up sharply, but a great apartment in great condition in a great neighborhood that is value-priced still takes some leg work to find. If you want to live on 11th Ave, or on Wall St., much easier...

Correct, hypnotic. No reason for them to feel comfortable that they can take their time while looking for a better offer. mj, you've got "hand". Use it.

I think you could still counter with a lower offer 'cause they effed you around & the market is weakening as we speak. Never give a sucker an even break.

I cannot stand people who nickle and dime--- Screw them.. Let them stick with this and rebid 20% lower in 6 months....

mj201, good luck. just like there's never only one person you could love, there's certainly not one apartment you could love. prices being what they are, and where they may well wind up, you may look back and chuckle. Damn, we were lucky we didn't get that apartment.

I give the broker the benefit of the doubt, take them at their word, and withdraw your offer and walk away. If they were truthful, and you were already at or beyond what you wanted to pay, then there is no deal, period. Done. If the broker lied, as some here suggest, then you are still better off doing exactly the same thing--w/draw your offer and walk away. If it was a lie they'll come after you. Effective negotiating does not require that you always know whether the other side is truthful or not. Rather, it requires that you know your position and stick to it.

Thanks guys for the advise. I'm a first time buyer so it's really helpful to get some input on navigating the real estate waters. The bottom line for me is that I like the apartment and I can see myself living there for the next 5-7 years. I think I deserve to get it at its market value, so I am considering lowering my "back up" offer back to my original limit, which both I and my broker think is a fair value (I actually think it's generous, considering the owner didn't renovate the kitchen or the bathroom).

In the meantime, I'm still looking, but really, buying an NYC apartment seems so much like dating in NYC. There's alot out there, but few that you really connect with (and, incidentally, quite a few that are "high maintenance", har har). I think I've seen about 40 properties by now and this one was the only one that felt like home to me.

Also, I realize that the luxury condo market has dropped dramatically, which is great for those people who have money for spaces like that, but I can't afford that. Is it really realistic for me to expect a 20% drop in price for 1 bedroom apartments on the UWS that are priced up to $600K? Isn't the lower end of the market seeing more activity, and therefore, more competitive?

mj201,

Just curious, what were the features of this apartment that you like. Eg

high floor, great light, views, specific location, sublet rules etc.

It was a real one bedroom on the upper west side, located off of an express stop, good size (my estimate is about 600 sf), good storage (4 closets, plus storage above the closets, one of the closets is double sized), the kitchen is fairly big, the apartment gets good light, elevator, well maintained building, 5th floor of a 6 floor building, low maintenance.

mj201, I feel ya, but you're doing the right thing here. Kylewest's points are excellent (also enjoy the renovation info on the other thread kyle), it doesn't really matter whether the broker was lying or not. As to your point about the competitiveness of the lower end, it is not dropping as fast as the high end, but it is *definitely* dropping. I've had the same search for more than a year on SE, and the quality and volume of property coming up in my price range (not too far off from yours) has increased dramatically since last year. Also, I'm curious about how long you were looking before you made the offer.

I've been looking for about 2 months now, but I've been looking fairly aggressively (on average, I've viewed about 6-8 properties per week), so, I suppose I wouldn't see a dramatic decrease in price within this time frame. Where's a good place to find comprehensive stats on the lower end of the market? I view comparables here on SE, but it would be nice to find stats that show a more general picture.

I'm gonna go against the general consensus here and say that mj201 probably made a mistake. Mj probably has exhausted his search looking for that "perfect" apt. He found it, was willing to pay probably more than $350k, and lost it over $3,000?

If it truly found the apt I liked, low maintenance, good size, plenty of closets, low maintenance, etc., I would not let $3,000 be a factor.

$3000 is a fraction more a month in someone's monthly payment, especially in this low rate environment. Not to mention the tax benefits and the tax credit for first time homebuyers.

Finding an ideal apt in the city is extremely difficult, why would you walk away for a few dollars more a month in mortgage payments?

The argument to buy or not to buy in this declining market is another story. But apparently, MJ was okay to move forward given the current price point, thus, this is not the issue.

Thanks anon10 for the input. I did think that quibbling over $3K is probably petty and I thought about just going for it anyway, but, the things that made me stop were:

1.) I was already $3K over my limit for the space
2.) The seller's broker was really pursuing me and was ready to slash his commission to make the deal, which made me believe that I was the best candidate to buy the space.
3.) Despite my aggressive hunt, I'm not in a hurry to move. I could still stay where I am for the next year, or move in a month if I wanted to.
4.) I'm still in the beginning of my hunt. It didn't make sense to me to overextend myself so early on.

If, in the end, it turned out to be a mistake, then that's fine. It'll be a lesson learned.

Unfortunately there is no great resource, besides your own time, over time. I wish I could see a snapshot of what fit my criteria a year ago exactly and now what fits it, but streeteasy hasn't built that feature (which would be awesome streeteasy, you have the data, pretty please give it to us?). I just remember what I was seeing a year ago (more actually) and what I'm seeing now. And it has come down (my area is UES though).

Did you plug the numbers for the place you were looking at with various scenarios into a rent v. buy calculator? The nytimes has a pretty good one (don't have a link, but if you google for it it comes up). It lets you play around with the scenarios quite a bit.

"Brokers generally seem to think it is ok to lie"

- I didn't know that. As you know, up to this point, I have had nothing but love for brokers (ahem). But now that I know they think it is OK to lie, I will be merciless in my calls for their death.

"Why play games in a market like this?"

- You see bunky, it's like this: Some people are really smart. Sometimes, they get an added boost and grow up in a nurturing home. These smart, well adjusted boys and girls go on to become surgeons, lawyers, investment bankers (the continually employed kind), and C-level executives. But some boys and girls aren't smart at all. In fact, some of them are downright STOOPID!

They become realt-whores.

This is a first purchase. If you have decided you will purchase, and you can wait some months, then wait. The market will come down further across the board. And this is from someone who likes to own and just purchased last summer. My situation involved basically trading up to live w/ a b/f and we both owned placed, sold, and combined our assets. Our time horizon is 10 years +. Could be 20+.

I am not comfortable with you buying now with a horizon as short as 5 years. Too short in this market at this time.

40 places you've seen? Please. You just started. Lol. My b/f and I attended 80 open houses and viewings before finding the "right" place. And in the process we, too, thought we'd found the ideal one and it got away--thank God because as it turns out fate knew it was overpriced for us before we did.

As for the $3K, if that is really all that separated you, the seller could easily have capitulated, too. You stuck to your purchase plan. It's done. I'd move on unless they come chasing after you. This one simply may not be meant to be.

thats why u dont negotiate w the listing broker directly- they dont rep u they represnt their client- who is the seller... you too should want someone reping u- if it was a co op and u offered all cash and the market tanked- u could hide your finances on the board package to the agent repping u to submit- but the listing broker wont agree to that bc its their client- the seller- who pays them

What?

Mj201: Understood. Good luck with your continued search. I'm sure you will find another apt you will love and maybe even at a little lower price. Time is definitely on your side.