The Brompton

"You should really buy an apartment in the Brompton"

I think there are at least two things to consider on price. First, it's obvious that the current prices don't match current reality, but I don't think Related is serious about selling those now--they are probably more focused on not screwing up appraisals and making sure that they close outstanding contracts. Second, many of those contracts were signed for lower amounts psf and the choice today for a Brompton contract holder is not whether you'd pay your contract porice, but rather whether you would pay 80% of that, since you already have 20% down.

"only if they throw in a years worth of BK Whoppers"

ManhattanRE,

I dont think the prices matched reality even during the height of the bubble. The other issue is that I guarantee many of the existing contracts will not close. With the economy the way it is, people are surely (unless they are all idiots) taking a second look at what they signed up for here. Regarding the 80% left that people need to pay, that is still totally out of whack. Taking an average of $1600 psf, 20% off of that is still over $1200 psf. $1200 psf is still an OUTRAGEOUS number to be paying for 86th between 2nd and 3rd. Agree with me or not, but I dont see anything happening at this building until the prices come in at well under $1000 psf.

"Typically one of the major 'selling points' of living on Park, Mad, or 5th is that you can get pre-war. There are plenty of nice apartments at or below $1600 psf on those three avenues. I would personally much rather have a nice prewar (or even a 1960s-1980s) building on Park/Mad/5th over a new construction anway. Park/Mad/5th is really just another lifestyle, its quite and clean, and if its the same price why would you ever suffer living above a BK? "

OK, fine.. .find me a nice prewar with some amenities and some view and a comparable maintenance at $1600 psf.

Agreed that 5th avenue is preferable, but find me similar quality apartments at that price there.

If you have to move to a dark apartment that doesn't face the park, just because its prewar doesn't make it a great trade... especially when Stern does a pretty nice job of getting as close to prewar type construction as you're going to get in new construction.

Try running the following search. This will give you a list of all the apartments (prewar and otherwise) that are available in Carnegie Hill between $1500 and $2000 psf. You can look through the list and find MANY apartments with full CP views.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sales/carnegie-hill-manhattan/ppsf:1500-2000?sort_by=ppsf_asc

Furthermore, below you will see one example of a listing for a prewar "classic 6" right on 5th Avenue with full CP views. You can go through the list yourself, its quite easy to do and there are a number of others. I am sure you will multiple apartments that are appealing to you.
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/411910-coop-1140-fifth-avenue-carnegie-hill-new-york

Also keep in mind that the above search is only Carnegie Hill. There are MANY more apartments the fall below 85th Street (so they are excluded from the search) that meet the criteria. I would personally consider anything above about 72nd Street to qualify, so keep that in mind.

$3k maintenance, and at 95th street. Sorry, I'll take 86th over that.

and the only amenity is "private storage room"....

That was just one example, as I said the list for just 85th Street up to 97th is 3 pages long. When conducting the search you can see all the other listings on the map. Click on all those that interest you for the full details. Even still, for the same price I would rather live on 95th and 5th any day. You mention amenities, so lets discuss that. The Brompton could list "BK in the building", but I suspect nobody would care. Other than the gym which most people wont use, there are no more amenities at the Brompton than anywhere else. The benefit of living on the park is that you can actually go outside and excercise instead of being stuck in some cheesy gym with the aging bridge and tunnel crowd anyway.

Again, I just listed a single example (1140 5th) it wasnt meant to be the primary reference for the discussion. There are countless other buildings and individual apartments that I (and many others) would choose before moving to Pizzeria Uno, and thats why the place is a vacant shell.

If you personally feel that dropping a couple million to live at the Brompton is a sane choice, then feel free to do so. I would only caution you because that low"er" manintence you mentioned is going to skyrocket within 12 months when the place is STILL vacant. Thats when this will be truly funny......

One question: what is happening in the building? It was largely sold, so is the emptiness due to closing schedules or are people walking away in large numbers? I've not heard the latter, but that seems to be the assumption.

Although there is no hard data available (yet), the general consensus is that people are walking away in droves. Apparently they feel that potentially giving up their deposit makes sense given the current situation, and the clear drawbacks of that building. I can assure you that the building would be doing everything in its power to get people in there ASAP if they could, so its clearly a problem.

What's funny, though, is that if people were walking away in droves, there'd be some evidence of it (posts here, for example). I'm not believing the "drvoes" part of it until I see it. It took 15CPW a hell of a long time to close, as did the TWC. I guess we'll see.

"Although there is no hard data available (yet)" - of course there is. Ever heard of ACRIS? If you mean that there is not yet complete information on the fate of every unit, then of course you're right. To me, that's a lot different that "no hard data". But that's just me.

"the general consensus is that people are walking away in droves" - That must be the general consensus of SE posters who are not SE insiders, don't know how to use ACRIS and/or prefer that their opinions remain unencumbered by facts, because even a cursory review of readily available public information gives the lie to the "walking away in droves" assertion.

If you said that lots of people have closed (and a some not) and every last one of them must be regretting the day they even heard of the Brompton, let alone signed a purchase contract, I would agree with you. However I think you're confusing your hope that buyers walked in droves with the reality that they haven't. The top floors, where the rate of closing has slowed dramatically in recent weeks, may yet produce a different pattern from the low to mid floors that are already substantially closed, but I don't see much evidence of a mass walk-out as yet. What is interesting is that something like 40% of the units that have closed have been rented or are offered for rent. This is indicative of investor/flipper buyers and/or people who are stuck financially in some way, can't carry the monthlies on the new purchase and have to rent it out to reduce the cash burn rate. I know (second hand) of someone in exactly this situation; he literally can't afford to move into his place at the Brompton.

Lets give it 6 months, then come back a re-visit this conversation. Only then will it be evident what really happened.

"What's funny, though, is that if people were walking away in droves, there'd be some evidence of it (posts here, for example). "

Agree. StellaBlue was all over the Brompton threads a few months ago saying that she walked. I don't recall anyone else, although I haven't gone back to take inventory. Even if the walkers didn't all post here I think that if they were very numerous we would be seeing "My cousin's friend's brother walked away from his deposit at the Brompton" type posts. At least that kind of urban legend post is better than the completely fabricated assertions actually getting posted on this board.

"Lets give it 6 months, then come back a re-visit this conversation. Only then will it be evident what really happened. "

yup...gonna be interesting to see how it all plays out.

You are also failing to take into account the people that did sign, but who are willing to pay a penalty (at this point) to break the contract. People are hiring lawyers to go after the Brompton for various reasons (do a quick search here on SE to find the threads), so a partial loss might be more appealing to some than the total loss of actually owning a place there.

"At least that kind of urban legend post is better than the completely fabricated assertions actually getting posted on this board."

As I just said, lets see how this plays out over the next 6 months. My prediction is that the place remains largely vacant. That will slowly begin to drive the costs up for those that mistakenly (and moronically) bought there. Come this time next year, people will be up in arms suing that place left and right. Bookmark this comment now, since you are going to want to review it later....

"Lets give it 6 months, then come back a re-visit this conversation. Only then will it be evident what really happened."

Translation: Oops, I just got busted for making assertions contradicted by readily available information easily found right here on SE. Oh well, why don't I dodge the question for now and come back in six months and hope that future facts are friendlier for the conclusion that I already reached.

I do think the picture will be both clearer and worse in six months, but that's different from buyers already having walked in droves.

"You are also failing to take into account the people that did sign, but who are willing to pay a penalty (at this point) to break the contract." Sorry, I don't even know what this means. The data to date shows that people closed. If they had preferred to pay the penalty, they would have done that and not closed. In the future that might change and if so apartments won't close. Again, my only point is that you should distinguish between actual evidence and speculation about how the future might be different.

"People are hiring lawyers to go after the Brompton for various reasons (do a quick search here on SE to find the threads)" That was the flavor of the month on the Brompton threads back in about March. It has totally petered out, both on SE and in the real world.

Sidelinesitter,

Do you happen to be a remorseful owner at the Brompton by chance? It certainly appears to be the case.

No. I own in the neighborhood. In an unremarkable post-war high rise on an unremarkable block (of which, as noted in this thread, there are many in the neighborhood), all of which is nice because i paid for the space i wanted and not for the address, a pretentious name on the building or amenities that most people don't use anyway.

interesting that you went to the personal attack, though. I guess that's all you had left after you got outed for making grand statements that you can't back up. Next time try having some facts and using them to make an actual argument; that tends to work better than making sh*t up.

To be clear (since it doesn't appear that you actually read my posts - but why burden oneself with reading before responding), I think your forecast for the Brompton may be proven right. If I had been dumb enough to sign a contract in this place, I'd go for "walk from the deposit" over "suck it up and close" every day of the week. However, so far the market (as embodied by what people have actually done) has voted with its feet for closing. I can't explain it, but facts can be inconvenient things. You should give the fact thing a try sometime.

sidelinesitter,

YOU began with the personal attacks, dont try and wiggle out of this! The funny part is that you continue to say you agree with my assesment, yet you insist on bashing it. You can choose to analyze the situation any way you want, but the fact remains my arguments are valid. I applaud your diligent use of ACRIS in determining the obvious, however anyone who lives in the area (including myself) can come to the same conclusions I did. The Brompton will fail due to being overpriced. People will not move in, and many who did will back out of their contracts. THOSE are the facts, spin them how you will....

EDIT: Many of those who contracted will break their contracts.

absolutely hysterical thread...really enjoy it...i walk by the Brompton daily, have friends who rent there and looked at several rentals there...i do notice a distinct lack of lights/activity in the bldg every day i walk by and wonder why more people havent moved in...i dont know how long these things take, but just observing

also, I find the BK, Pizzeria Uno and crackhead comments hysterical, even though i find the claims or implied negatives overexaggerated...we live nearby and have never seen anything nearly as terrible as implied...there's lots of young kids running around during the day and families at the theater and tasti d lite etc...perhaps i'm a redneck and dont even know it, but i'm not offended by a good Whopper or Papaya dog every now and then or those who enjoy these tasty treats, however unhealthy

tho I too find the Brompton prices too high, having been inside and seen the amenities, I would say it is quite nice...it reminds me of the Venetian or Bellagio ...other bldgs may have the same headline amenities, but so do The Four Seasons and The Courtyard by Marriot....i know which hotel id want to stay in and which I'd pay more for

having lived in the neighborhood and a bit farther away from the firehouse than the Brompton, I would confirm the siren noise is somewhat regular and loud...its not horrible, but it is noticeable and i would bet some might find it undesirable, others tolerable

to each his own and do continue the discussion because its pure entertainment

"i've lived in a related building since i first moved out on my own back in the late 90s. their services are honestly second to none"

You have to know that there is a big difference between living in a rental building owned and managed by Related than buying a Condo built and sold be them (unless they retain a huge chunk of the units to rent out). There is every reason to believe that that some other management company will end up as building manager, and then you won't get that level of management service anymore. And even if they are retained as building manager (I really don't know, does Related Manage and buildings they don't own?) I can't imagine they would continue to provide the type of service they do for their own buildings at a price which the Condo unit owners would accept: You have to remember that Related is relatively new to NYC (compared to a lot of other large landlords). They came in unencumbered by the "rent stabilized landlord" mentality where turnover was almost always a good thing. They came in wanting to retain tenants, since that's the way the markets they were established in worked. As a result, they were a shocking breath of fresh air in comparison to the way other people ran their buildings. They knew they could charge higher rents for comparable units and still retain tenants by spending more money on good managers, good maintenance, etc. But in a building where they don't own the units and thus don't collect rents, I'm not sure how they could provide the usual level of service and maintenance at the pay levels people are used to paying NYC managing gents.

But perhaps I'm wrong: does anyone know what they are doing at 26 Astor, The Chatham, one Carnegie Hill or The Park Imperial?

I live in one of the condos they sponsored and manage. In short, the staff and service are phenomenal. Pls no posts about how the service isn't worth the $'s--I'm not saying it is--but it is incredible.

I have a friend that just moved in and her apartment is gorgeous. The staff is bending over backwards to help with her every need and I understand that Related has already closed on over 50% of the units. She was just thrilled with how smoothly everything went for what it is worth for others considering the building.

would be curious as to what you mean? could you give a few examples of the type of service provided that is so unusual?

cmccabe, 50% right now really isn't so great for the Brompton. all things considered.

Is that because you are assuming that reflects a large number of people walking away?

It's actually not assuming anything. But i do believe that they had been close to "selling out" quite some time ago. Any building that's been marketing for over a year, been closing for months (many) and is just at 50ish% closed, particularly in buildings with relatively high common charges, is not in good shape.

aboutready: not sure I agree with your conclusion. I would guess there's a good portion of contract holders having some difficulties getting mortgages. Jumbos take more time and require more rounds of documentation right now than ever before. Throw in a few people trying to get rid of their old apartments and the Sponsor is probably being fairly accommodating in terms of closings.

That's not altruistic. It's in the Sponsor's best interest to work with buyers who want to close but are having difficulty. They could always tell a buyer they violated the 15 day time is of the essence and move to keep the deposit but then they have to resell the apartment and can't even do that if the purchaser ties them up in court. Better to do the right thing which just happens to be in both Related and the buyer's best interest.

Since there aren't that many other buildings in closings, it's hard to compare/contrast whether Brompton closing pace is above or below average or normal for this environment. You can't look at the process from two years ago and compare. Different world with the banks.

My gut tells me they're probably a bit above average and closings will take awhile. Some percentage who want to close will end up not being able to and will need to walk. Probably not that high a percentage. The majority will just need a little extra time to get their mortgages and financial life in order and Related is right for so many reasons to give them that time.

All things considered, it's fairly impressive. 50% is significant. People seem actually happy and in the Harrison, I'm seeing some of the remaining inventory actually go into contract. What I think about the PSF isn't relevant -- I think it's high for both buildings. But it's hard to argue with Related. They are a machine and right now the machine is doing the right thing by giving buyers time.

Just one more note: your comment about high common charges is in reference to the fact that the developer must pay those charges for unclosed units. While that can be an issue for many developers, Related is certainly not in a problematic position.

Not sure I would want to own the Miami Dolphins but that's a different issue. It's complete FUD to even speculate that Related would have a hard time carrying the common charges on unsold apartments. Your comment about "any building" is over-reaching.

Do I think the Apthorp is going to run into issues? Hell yes. But let's be real here. Related, even with the issues they have in south Florida, etc still has more than enough cash to pay the dinky common charges on these buildings.

OldWest - if you keep showing up here spouting all these articulate, nuanced and rational arguments you may find yourself with a lot of online enemies. On the SE boards, making sense is the poor cousin to guesswork, instinct and the resolute focus on what one wishes to be true (to the exclusion actual evidence, if need be). Don't say you weren't warned!

oldwest, it may be impressive to you but if i had already closed it wouldn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy. i wouldn't touch a building that wasn't 80% or more closed in this lending environment, particularly at this price level. related created an llc to build this building, just like every other developer did for their developments. walking away from losing propositions isn't considered bad business, it's considered smart in this society. but we shall just have to wait and see.

Related seems to be positioning themselves to be in the high-end luxury business for a long time, and well after this nasty recession and housing bust are over. Presently, they have three very expensive developments nearing or just recently completed: The Brompton, The Harrison and Superior Ink. Related's strategy of not reducing pricing or offering any concessions suggests that they are selling not only high quality construction but also their reputation, their 'brand.' In fact, Related stresses in press interviews that their reputation is priority #1, and that they stand firmly behind their product. It is that reason why people were so attracted to these 3 condos.

For new construction, Related is a top tier developer and a major presence here in NY. Sure, you could probably buy a new condo at a 20 - 30% discount in some development downtown in the Financial Dist. But have you ever HEARD of some of those so-called developers before? Ah, no. Or you can get an even bigger discount - 40% anybody? - at other (stalled) projects throughout the Manhattan. But good luck finding the owner/developer once you close to fix all the defects resulting from shoddy construction.

Want an even bigger discount? 50% off? Try Williamsburg. 60%? Try Harlem and parts of the Bronx and Queens. 70%? Now you're in Florida, Arizona and Nevada. A nice foreclosure sale perhaps?

Prices have indeed come down in Manhattan and elsewhere. But people who signed contracts at Related developments will know that they will be getting what was promised and what they paid for - excellent quality, by a company that stands behind their product.

As I mentioned above, each of the 3 developments have sold upwards of 80% or more units. Check out the very impressive Superior Ink stats: http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/contact/70349-superior-ink-sales-gallery

if you're relying on related's reputation you should carefully research their actions in las vegas.

aboutready: you are actually suggesting that Related would walk away from the Brompton? More FUD with the "losing proposition" thing.

I don't know their internal numbers but I would imagine they are fairly close to break-even with just a few more units closed. The carry is tiny on unclosed units relative to value. Tax abatement too.

I'm not relying on Related's reputation but their financial position. Anyone suggesting there is the chance that Related walks away or defaults on the Brompton, I'll take that bet and give 5-1 odds.

There is different risk. A purchaser may "over-pay" for an apartment and if they sell near term could certainly see the decent chance of losing equity value. No doubt. And there is developer risk. The Brompton has almost zero developer risk. No one can show me where that risk would be. 50% closed is fine for current environment. Very few apartments left to sell and even if 15% of those left to close defaulted, it still would leave less than 15% of inventory left unsold. The developer is close to break-even with current closed position, the financial backing is strong, and the fact that they didn't give concessions shows a strong bargaining position.

You don't need to feel warm and fuzzy. There is a minuscule chance Related would walk away from the Brompton. I'd be willing to wager on it. Put your money where you're typing is...

still don't get the 50% issue--if we don't have facts about the closing and contruction schedule, why would 50% be a bad number? the entire building doesn't close on the same day

if we knew people were walking away, then that would be an issue. likewise if banks won't finance purchases for the building. but without data and facts, there's no basis I can see to say there's problem based on the % closed to date

also don't get the llc point. sure, it protects the main company from liability, but not from reputational and brand damage. the thought that related would tank on the building since it's developed through an llc ignores the broader incentives they have

OldWest - if people take you up on the 5-1 bet against Related and you want to lay off some of the action, let me know and I'm there to back you up. However, I totally understand if you see it as free money and want to keep it all for yourself

ManRE - I'm not sure you're going to get very far on this thread going on and on about facts, but I guess it's worth giving it a go. Good luck

See below for a sampler, a tasting menu if you will, of stupid UESBandit comments about the Brompton. Amazingly, all of them come from just one page (this one) of one thread. Quite impressive, really

"Agree with me or not, but I dont see anything happening at this building until the prices come in at well under $1000 psf." Already happened, so I'll go with 'not', thanks.
"I would only caution you because that low"er" manintence you mentioned is going to skyrocket within 12 months when the place is STILL vacant" Let's check back on this one in about 4 months. Not lookin' too good at 80+% sold, though
"Although there is no hard data available (yet), the general consensus is that people are walking away in droves. Apparently they feel that potentially giving up their deposit makes sense given the current situation, and the clear drawbacks of that building. I can assure you that the building would be doing everything in its power to get people in there ASAP if they could, so its clearly a problem." A veritable smorgasbord of idiocy, this one
"Lets give it 6 months, then come back a re-visit this conversation. Only then will it be evident what really happened" Sorry to be a couple of months late, but happy to compare notes here at the 8 month mark
"The Brompton will fail due to being overpriced. People will not move in, and many who did will back out of their contracts. THOSE are the facts, spin them how you will...." "EDIT: Many of those who contracted will break their contracts." This one's not lookin' too good either, but hey, why break your streak?

Update on Brompton can be found about 20 posts down in the link below. UESB, you have shown yourself to be allergic to data, so I give you fair warning that clicking through could cause an allergic reaction.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/8452-brompton-buyers-are-organizing?page=3

I am looking to rent a one bedroom here if any owners are interested in renting. Reply back on streeteasy with contact information asap!