If nyc10022 is a happy renter, why does he spend NUMEROUS HOURS everyday on streeteasy?

oldbuyers, quit it.

bottomboy, don't you have a flag that needs to be waved on 8th Ave?

I find it hilarious that people that have no interest in buying and love to boast about how they rent spend half their day and energy on a website devoted to purchasing real estate.

Isn't there a renter.com or lovetorent.com discussion board you guys should be on?

This is Rufus. This site is not devoted to purchasing RE. Did you attend college in NYC your dream city? You are a terrible clown.

CORRECTION: This site is not devoted to renters?

oldbuyers: I am a renter too and think most of us are on here to figure out when a good time to buy hits. That time is not now. We can sleep at night not having to worry about the overpriced asset we bought in the last 3 years dropping 30-50%. Or worry about the "stable" investment we bought in the late 80's which is our only performing asset as our stock portfolios have evaporated. Can an oldbuyer live with a serious retracement in their condo/co-op value when their 401K is now a 201K? Fear and greed make people do some stupid things. We renters(pool of future buyers) have the luxury of waiting. When the bottom does come it will be here for sometime. This will be no V-shaped recovery. In the meantime we build up our cash reserves to place us in better bargaining positions with desperate sellers.

Lots of renters invested their money in the stock market. I bet most of them have lost far more money than selelrs have over the last 12 months. Maybe that is why they are bitter.

alpine, aren't you a renter? In Hell's Kitchen?

cfranch, fair enough. But do you really need streeteasy to gage whether now is the time to buy or not? And how hypocritical of you...you say streeteasy is to determine whether to rent or buy then go on to explain your theory on how it will not be a good time to buy for years.

So don't you have anything else to do with your time? Those of us who are contemplating about buying now are sick of listening to you guys calling for the end of the world.

I don't have a problem with renters. I have a problem with people that are so obsessed with telling everyone how much they love renting that they feel the need to spread their logic to a website FULLY devoted to purchasing real estate.

THERE'S NOT EVEN A RENTAL SECTION OF STREETEASY!!!!

What justification do you have lingering here? See it's not time then move on. I'm in the game to play. I'm not a bench warmer like you guys. When it's your time to buy, then come to streeteasy. Until then, enjoy your rental lives.

alpine, the stock market is down over 50%. So far, real estate would have been a much better investment.

"THERE'S NOT EVEN A RENTAL SECTION OF STREETEASY!!!!"

You should do more research, try pressing the "Rentals" button, fourth from the left at the top.

absolutely oldbuyers. I own a house in northern NJ, which I estimate is down about 10% from the peak. I could not really care that much considering that anyone who went into stocks is in far worse shape than myself.

"So far"

oldie - and you care because...?!

oldbuyers: alpine, the stock market is down over 50%. So far, real estate would have been a much better investment.

Not necessarily true. Assuming you have no leverage on your portfolio, had you invested in the stock market in the fall of 07, you would be down 50%. Had you invested your portfolio in real estate at the fall of '07 putting 20-25% down as most investors and buyers have, you would have lost everything.

oldbuyers and alpine; i day trade for a living using technical analysis. I went to all cash in March of 2008. Yes I didn't catch the top of the market exactly(November 2007) but am pleased with my decision. Should have gone short but can't win them all.
As for using this site for hints as to whether the housing market has bottomed: I use it much the way I use stock boards, as sentiment indicators. Once sentiment reaches an extreme it is but one metric I use to determing whether to buy, sell or sit on hands. There are other sentiment indicators as well. I also use breadth indicators. These are more objective numbers. In real estate I want to see at least a slowing in the percentage rise in new listings. That hasn't happened. I want to see an uptick in sales. That hasn't happened. There are others I am watching.
Your rage at us renters and other sideliners posting our bearish RE views only reinforces my point that we are far away from a bottom in RE. When you, and many like you, have thrown in the towel you will see me at one of your weekly open houses.

For the record my current status is extremely bearish on real estate and extremely bullish on the stock market, for the near term.

"Lots of renters invested their money in the stock market. I bet most of them have lost far more money than selelrs have over the last 12 months."

I really doubt this is true (and frankly I hope it isn't), at least as far as money they would potentially use as a down payment on a home. The titular character from this thread tried insinuating something along those lines yesterday (though only to celebrate the S&P being up - and down today, so far, oh no!) but I really don't buy it. It's quite risky to put that money in something as volatile as equities.

oh and old buyer your question that started this thread about renters on this site: can the same not be said for you? maybe your motive is fear and you are looking for reinforcement from other real estate bulls to calm your nerves? maybe you're here to pump some life into a rapidly deflating market. you are rightly gripped by fear as you have no idea where the floor is on your investment.

cfranch, if oldbuyer is as leveraged as everyone else, he is probably past the floor and sinking into the basement...

I estimate that my stock holdings are up 10% since last year. I don't care what the market says. Those quoted prices are only meaningless bids and asks.

cfranch, are you for real?

Great, you went to cash (or so you claim) and avoided the huge market downfall that wiped out trillions of dollar in American wealth. So you claim it will not be financially advisable to buy real estate for a couple years. Congratulations on your theory.

Now then, move alone and vacate streeteasy. There is nothing here for you, as a self admitted sideline sitter for years. Why are you wasting your precious time thinking, talking, defending your real estate choices.

BTW, you know nothing about me, when I bought, if I bought, etc, so don't draw any conclusions, because you're just throwing darts in the dark.

If money is time then you must be broke if you are wasting so much time on streeteasy.

cfranch, there are definitely people of that nature here, unfortunately. Try not to pay them any mind. That said, I think some of the opposite end of the spectrum are a bit obsessed with telling specific posters what their properties are worth. That's a bit cuckoo when you have next to no information.

malthus, are you up 10% as of EOY 2008 or YOY? Big difference!

oldbuyer_ i assume you purchased a while ago base on your username. but your anger only reinforces my views. and i will be hanging about these boards between stock trading, the information is too rich not to mine.

bjw-i agree i would never presume to know what properties are worth specifically. trying to catch the exact bottom is a fool's game.

Oldbuyers - are you really this obtuse???? I mean, c'mon - it doesn't matter what's gone on over the past 1, 2, 5, 10 years - what matters is what will happen over the NEXT 1, 2, 5, 10 years, etc. In other words, renters are on this site b/c they expect to become buyers at some future date when prices have fallen to a reasonable level. They monitor these chat rooms to glean information as to how much prices are falling, rate of decrease, rate of inventory builds, etc. Regardless of what people post here, prices are going to do what they are going to do - so pls get over the fact that people (i.e., renters) may disagree with your pollyannish views about NYC housing prices.

bjw2103: The sarcasm loses its value when I have to explain it.

Sorry, totally glossed over the last sentences, so that flew right over me. Up 10% in the stock market is actually not all that crazy though.

Wow, ANOTHER bitter buyer thread! Thank you for continuing to prove my point!

nyc10022,

I think thats late Rufus.

sorry, bottomboy, but i'm not rufus. he was banned from streeteasy.

Nah, I don't think he's rufus.... just bitter in a different way.

stock market's up 20% since early march. and the drop is no longer 50% peak to current.

46%, but who's counting?

"Lots of renters invested their money in the stock market. I bet most of them have lost far more money than selelrs have over the last 12 months."

Folks trying to make the comparison between stock and RE seem to be "forgetting" the factor they were very proud of only a few months ago... leverage.

I don't know many buyers who buy with 100% cash. Most of the "check out my return" stories involve folks who put 20% or less down.

Its pretty simple to figure out which is worse... 46% down, or 28% down with 5 to 1 or 10 to 1 leverage...

totallyanon: if the market is down 50% from the peak it will take a 100% run-up to get back to the highs. a much more difficulty proposition.

nyc10022,

I think you're a great person, why are you disliked on SE, silly me I know because you speak the truth.

totallyanon: if the market is down 50% from the peak it will take a 100% run-up to get back to the highs. a much more difficulty proposition.

truem and thats the case for the 2 401ks I still have. However, I was all cash until November 2008. Doing well since then in SSO and SDS. its far too late to sell if you were in at the peak. Hopefully you can rde it out for the next 5-10 years.

Haven't posted in months. Amazing that this site never changes. Are people really still arguing over "bears" and "bulls" in RE? It's just a bit silly now...but amusing in its way. I give you giys credit for having the same discussion over and over and over...

ha! I showed up yesterday after a 6 month hiatus and its like riding a bike again. you never foret. site's loaded with broker vermin, know it alls and self aggrandizers. same old same old.

truly. i was actually thinking i would see new discussion and ideas. but is is the same shit rehashed.

I think this market has a lot further to fall. Prices are insane. When all is said and done, housing prices will be down at least 60%. I honestly do not believe that we will see peak prices ever again in our lifetimes. If you buy real estate now, you are crazy.

Hey cfranch, how about attending my open house now?

> totallyanon: if the market is down 50% from the peak it will take a 100% run-up to get back to the
> highs. a much more difficulty proposition.

Of course, that was just a 20% bump we saw.

"Haven't posted in months. Amazing that this site never changes. Are people really still arguing over "bears" and "bulls" in RE? It's just a bit silly now...but amusing in its way. I give you giys credit for having the same discussion over and over and over..."

Difference is, "bulls" have turned from gloating to bitter, and "bulls" from bitter to gloating.

> truly. i was actually thinking i would see new discussion and ideas. but is is the same shit rehashed

Only because there are still a few - like alpine - in denial, so the crash case still apparently needs to be made over and over again.

When the argument changes, we might have actually hit a bottom... but that will be in a few years.

oldbuyer: "THERE'S NOT EVEN A RENTAL SECTION OF STREETEASY!!!!"

You really are one ignorant idiot. Go to any page on StreetEasy. Look at the top, in big bold letters, right next to where you see the link for the "sales" section. Read the word "rentals". Click on that word. Scratch head.

lmbbao.

oldbuyers is quantum or someone recycled that were put on blast on SE.

i don't get you renters, like your so proud to be a renter, writing youor checks to someone else. what a sad life you renters have, like living in the dark room with your broken TV. idiots.

broker_ivan - if you own a property, you are probably writing a check every month to the mortgagee and, if you stop doing so, they will take your precious RE away from you. Somehow that makes you superior to writing a monthly check to a landlord???? Pls quit it w/ the condescending attitude.

Sex poser, i suppose you sit around too looking out your basement windows with bars on them yelling at people not to look down on you, little renter boy. the only checks i pay are to me. you renters keep mailing me your checks thats okay.

Sorry, I didn't realize you weren't a serious poster - I will stop replying to your childish nonsense.

"Only because there are still a few - like alpine - in denial, so the crash case still apparently needs to be made over and over again."

Dude - law of diminishing returns. Let some people believe what they want; no sense in wasting the energy.

"truly. i was actually thinking i would see new discussion and ideas."

Like a fool, I'm still waiting. Actually, kylewest started a good one about kitchen renovations, as well as another about negotiating tips.

sex poser, thats okay, run away, i don't expect you to understand.

you see, if you would of bought an apartment you would be enjoying the benefits now. I think you should ask Alpine282 about his situation. first off, alpine299 owns his house and as he said it only fell 10% in value. not 30%. why? i'll tell you, its because he DOES NOT HAVE TO SELL!! maybe you understand me now - he can say whatever he wants about the value of his house because he owns and he does not have to sell!! when you are an owner, not a renter, and you dont have to sell, then you can say your house is worth whatever you want it to be! okay, maybe if he tried to sell his house it would be worth 40% less not 10% but he does not have to sell, so the joke's on you.

you cant say your house is worth anything. you dont own anything.

Alpine, as you know i like your strategy but I have a question - how come you dont say your house is worth 30% more? why 10% less? you can say whatever you want!

Going back to the original thread topic - "If nyc10022 is a happy renter, why does he spend NUMEROUS HOURS everyday on streeteasy?"

The same question can be asked of the whole cast of characters. What kind of jobs do people have that allow them to post ALL DAY LONG? Aren't you busy at work??? I want that kind of job..

but owners don't send a check to their bank forever. My grandmother owns a 2 family house in Brooklyn. She sends $0 to her bank every month since she bought for cash. In fact, her house PAYS her since she has a tenant. She just sits around watching Soap Operas all day long while her house pays all of her bills. How many renters have that luxury? (And I know what all of you are saying; how can anyone watch Soap Operas all day long without going insane? Beats me!)

"but owners don't send a check to their bank forever"

You're right - just 30 years. LMAO. BTW, I would buy if PRICES WERE REASONABLE, but they aren't, so I'm not - simple as that. I prefer to own assets that appreciate in value over time - NYC RE, at current prices, are not in this category - maybe in a few years it will be, but not now. Thus, I am not buying anytime soon. Why put $ into an asset which is almost certain to depreciate over the next fews years when instead you can invest in an asset almost certain to appreciate substantially over the same time period???

"In fact, her house PAYS her since she has a tenant"

So do stocks - it's called a dividend. So do bonds - it's called interest. The question is not whether an asset pays you something - the question is whether you are paying a high or low price for the asset in the first place. It makes no sense to overpay for ANY ASSET if you can put the same amount of $ into other asset which is undervalued.

Alpine, again you are 010% correct.

question - you arent selling your house in new jersey, right? i thought i saw that you were selling it.

If you are selling it, are you planning to evict the Mexicans? What kinds of prices are you seeing for your house compared to the peak? Do the Mexicans know your selling the house? Are they always there? Its a little strange, I admit. Do you mind living with a Mexican family?

sorry, 100% correct

"Alpine, again you are 010% correct"

PLEASE KEEP POSTING, JUST FOR THE COMEDIC VALUE!!! God you are a dope.

Alpine, if i were you i would say that my house is worth 50% more, not 10% less. why not, right? you have the right attitude - if you don't need to sell your house, you can make up what its worth so why not make it sound good. no need to pay attention to comps, thats for sure. i don't think 10% down is so good though.

by the way, if you want to keep renting your house but the Mexicans leave, I know some other mexicans who will rent your place. their clean and arent crazy (they wont surprise you in the middle of the night - HA!) so just let me know if you need new tenants

you don't need to wait 30 years to pay off your loan. With inflation, you can easily pay it off in 20 years, possibly even 15.

"Dude - law of diminishing returns. Let some people believe what they want; no sense in wasting the energy."

BJW, I don't disagree at all... but lets be honest, this is all 99.9999% wasting time....

"but owners don't send a check to their bank forever. My grandmother owns a 2 family house in Brooklyn. She sends $0 to her bank every month since she bought for cash. In fact, her house PAYS her since she has a tenant. She just sits around watching Soap Operas all day long while her house pays all of her bills. How many renters have that luxury?"

Had grandma put her money in the stock market back in the day (particularly if she added in some of that leverage), she wouldn't have to live in Brooklyn. She'd have a nicer pad in Manhattan, and her nest egg would be in the millions (even after the recent fallback) and she'd probably have a driver, too.

Obviously not all renters have that luxury, but you also noted an exception case.

My grandmother also had a 2 family in. It took YEARS AND YEARS to get to a point where their mortage was covered by renters. Then one took a sledgehammer to the apartment. Of course, thats a bad case scenario, but you still have to be a landlord. Repairs, collecting rent, bla bla. Make no mistake, that is work there.

And money would have been better put in the stock market.