Listings I'm excited by - UWS

you can afford $5.8 million. Wow, I need a new job.

nyc10023: It's funny - I check Massey Knakal occasionally, and after noticing that listing and a few others yesterday, I was going to start a thread on the looming transformation of the UWS townhouse market.

It seems to me that with the shrinking of the "trophy property" sector, townhouse prices are quickly reverting to their historic norm - i.e., except for truly extraordinary houses, the price has to make sense on a pro forma basis. With taxes and anxiety rising, and rents falling, that could mean some stunning drops. The process has already started. Specialists like Dexter Guerreri and Wolf Jakubowski have swapped their scalpels for machetes in recent weeks.

What area(s) of UWS is considered the "historic district"?

I'm not sure that the term "historic district" has any meaning (legal).

Being a landmarked building in NYC certainly has repercussions - see http://www.landmarkwest.org/maps_and_data/index.html for landmarked areas of the UWS. Permission must be obtained for any changes that can be seen from the street, and I think back as well. This may render the FAR ratio irrelevant (i.e. the amount of square footage that can be added to a building).

In addition, you can grant an easement to an architectural trust, and the value of the easement is a deductible on your tax return.

In addition, a building can be on the National Registry of Historic Places (that's not the exact name but close enough) - no meaning with respect to building changes in NYC but you get the above tax benefit as well.

UWS townhouse market is divided into single-family properties & income properties, more or less. Single-family falls into the trophy/luxe market - where that goes, SFH will follow. Income properties will revert to historical price/rent ratios, with the added possibility that luxury vacancy decontrol will be abolished (and I'm against that, you're making over 175k in these times, you don't need help).

81:
Made me think a bit, and this is what I thought. What do some of these rent for, the split ones, where you get a couple of floors, 2,000 f2 or so. Found these three, what will these actually rent for? attached are the asking rents.

This is my hood and all 3 are great streets and each building has no apparent external flaws. 75th is one of the truly great streets on the UWS. Both sides offer tons of sun and the street and sidewalks "seem" a bit wider than others.

Never owned or rented a townhouse in the NYC, curious about others thoughts.

asking $12,000
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/469423-rental-21-west-75th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

asking $11,600
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/460279-rental-110-west-75th-st-upper-west-side-new-york

asking $11,250
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/457207-rental-125-west-80th-st-upper-west-side-new-york

I think they're dreaming - 4 years ago, these apts would have been taken at these prices. I saw a triplex (garden, parlor & basement) with a poor layout and crappy 80s reno rented at 8k in the high 80s. Ditto triplex in 90s, better condition (8k+).

It's a small market for townhouse rentals (as with townhouse luxe properties) because of the lack of staff. A big market for these rentals used to be British/European expats who like the house thing.

West81: I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but many of the townhouses S. of 96 are owned by long-time small landlords. Some own just 1 house, others over 50 (Brusco). Over the last 12 months, I've noticed that a few of them are selling (one of them owned 123W85). Because they've held for so long and many of them have negligible mortgages, prices can be slashed drastically over a short time as there's no incentive to hold out for an extra million when they're pocketing all of it free and clear. As owners age/die, it'll be interesting to see what happens to this small pool of housing stock on the UWS.

agree with 10023. I looked at the 75th st one. Nice enough, but you can find large sixes for under 10k in full-service prewar doorman buildings near the park. Why would I pay a premuim for no services or super on premises? For the private rooftop garden?
I think not.
8-9k MAYBE

patient - I'm far (far, far) from a knowledgeable expert on the topic, but I do have a strong affection for brownstones so will offer my 2 cents...

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/458515-condo-26-west-87th-street-upper-west-side-new-york?email=true
we saw this one about a month ago and my gut reaction, when I saw it, was that it was priced pretty well (maybe a little high but not far off). It rented within a few weeks and my guess is that it rented for close to ask (8.5k maybe). It was a parlor & 2nd floor duplex (no garden access). The two on 75th are 3rd and 4th floor duplexes, correct? That requires a slash. However, I agree ;) West 75th is pretty great so location is a factor. I agree with nyc10023 & bfgross that they'll likely go for under $10k.

bfgross - this is just my opinion, but I really don't think you can compare a classic six to a brownstone duplex/triplex. Apples and oranges. IMO, a brownstone feels much more like a home rather than an apartment. I have yet to walk into a large prewar apartment that gives me that "homey" feeling. There's value in that to some people...more so than a doorman and full service building (believe it or not ;).

"Historic district" does have a very real legal meaning. All and any alteration within its boundaries (http://www.nyc.gov/html/lpc/downloads/pdf/maps/riverside_w_end.pdf) requires tons of permits, often not given. A friend of mine learned the hard way that even the tiniest alteration of his property (w 88) is impossible.

uwsmom: i get your point. but historically brownstones trade at a discount to good fullservice buildings b/c of the lack of amenities.
Also, have you ever been in a truly grand prewar apartment. Trust me, they feel like a private home. Of course they are different from the feeling of a brownstone, but in the really nice prewars, you dont even feel like you're in the city.

bf - I suppose I have never been in a "truly grand prewar building". I'm rarely in a truly grand anything! Though, I do appreciate your points. We've looked at classic sixes and sevens renting for $10k and under (they were NOT in grand buildings!!!) and I have yet to see one that didn't feel choppy compared to the flow in a brownstone. Just personal preference I suppose. The bluebirds perched on our balcony all spring and summer are nice too ;)

Even the grandest of prewar apartments can feel claustrophobic if you can't step out into fresh air.

Reacting to nyc1002 last comment: I think outdoor space is key for psychic purposes, and also think people in nyc really psyche themselves into thinking the 24/7 many of them live with is OK.

Another big price cut from Dexter Guerrieri:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/318577-multi-307-west-71st-street-lincoln-square-new-york
aka
http://www.townhouseexperts.com/PropertyDetail2.asp?area=new&listing=227

Still not very attractive from a cap rate perspective, but getting there. And if you could consolidate the four regulated tenants a bit or entice a couple to vacate, there's room for a nice owner's unit.

Of course, you'll have to displace the disabled children from their rehab facility on the garden level, but hey, business is business.

As far as townhouses go, check out our listing at 24 w 95th street. It has several rental apts, but also an owner's duplex. Right off the park on a lovely tree lined street. It needs a stoop and has little curb appeal, but lots of detail left inside, and a spacious south facing garden. http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/388005-multi-24-west-95th-street-upper-west-side-new-york

For more about townhouses, see my blog: http://nychousewhisperer.blogspot.com/2009/01/truth-about-townhouses.html

Another compliment for West 81: I hope you take it thusly.

Main Entry:
fly–on–the–wall
Function:
adjective
Date:
1974

: having or involving an inconspicuous but effective point of observation

Thanks, LookingAround. I do.

Shifting gears to coops, here's a cool new listing from James Perez at BHS:
http://www.bhsusa.com/detail.aspx?id=1005910

Looks like the owners bought the two top-floor apartments in 2006 for $2.25MM, merged them, did a spectacular gut reno, and now they're offering the whole thing for $2.75MM, which has to be below their all-in cost. Complex refi in late 2008 hints at distress, but it might have just been a rate play.

Not really my taste, and I'm the first to warn against buying a fancy apartment in a not-so-fancy building, but this one does stand out.

Regarding the "24 w 95th"listing, can anyone who lives in the low 90's park block comment on the general feel of the neighborhood. Crime wise and also 'feel', or does it really depend if you live on 92nd vs 93rd vs 94th etc

Any hesitation owning a townhouse in this location since you don't have a doorman

West81st, that's a great job they did. Good to see something other than the same old uptown renovation. I like how the furniture sort of floats in all that white. (Of course, it'd last a week with me....)

bugelrex, that block of 95th is fine. Houses, small apt buildings, could be any park block in the 60s/70s/80s. And your councilperson would be across the street!

There will always be a smaller market for townhouses than apts in NYC. Definitely benefits to townhouse living - separation of kids' areas from parents' #1, IMO & outdoor space #2.

we find 95th street to be fairly dumpy relative to being just a few blocks down on broadway...closer to the park is better...interesting that there are several townhouses on this street specifically for sale relative to higher 80/lower 90 streets

313-315 W 91st is still way overpriced at $5.8M. $450/sf for 4 RS units & 4 RC units is too much. These tenants are only going to get harder to evict in this economy and with the NYS legislature trying to roll back decontrol. The lots are shallow (only 79', not the typical 100'). MK touts the 10770 sf of air rights but they're worthless in a historic district and when the adjacent properties are all overbuilt apt buildings.