Harlem for a women in her 20's

There are white women where I live, 101st. Less so farther north. I live in a doorman building, and you would be better off in one up here too.

There are definitely more white single guys up here though than women. Why do you think you need to move all the way above 110th though? Its basically the same rent where I am versus up there, but restaurants deliver to where I live.

Anyway, I would assume its always different for women, though.

Go hang in harlem during the week, weekend, day, night... You will get a feel for whether it is OK. I think it's fine.

It's generally fine. However, there are some areas in east harlem that are pretty rough. You need to walk around to see what its all about.

i wouldn't go above say 123rd. the area is improving, but still it doesn't feel safe for a women alone at night. sorry to be so blunt. also not sure how east you are thinking.

when it comes to save on rent, better to have a roommate to afford a better area than to be alone where you don't feel comfortable coming home late at night.

hamilton heights might be better than east harlem in terms of safety for a woman alone, not sure whether it's much more expensive.

I am getting so sick of these "Is Harlem safe for young white women, children, families" discussions. Do you think that there are legions of dangerous black men lying in wait to prey on any white woman who so much as crosses 110th Street? So much for the new "postr-racial" era. Disgusting.

But there ARE areas of harlem with high crime rates. This is why we are saying it depends on where. For example, closer to 96th its lower, and 10027 and MH are lower, but other areas, including above 110th east side, a scarily high.

And I am half black and half hispanic, but 100% sure the cat calls are more likely to come here in Harlem than in Tribeca or the East Village. So its not unreasonable for her to ask.

Gernaraly, if you thinking "stregth in numbers" stay below 106th, or right around MMP, or FDB. Or MH.

Catcalls and crimes are two very different things. 100% sure? She's just as, if not more likely to get catcalls passing a midtown construction site than walking down Lenox or 8th Avenue in the middle of the afternoon, or evening.

I am white and I live in Harlem, and I feel safer and more secure in my neighborhood than in some parts of Hell's Kitchen, the LES and Times Square.

marvyboy, are you female?

"Do you think that there are legions of dangerous black men lying in wait to prey on any white woman who so much as crosses 110th Street?"

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/Police-Search-For-Man-Who-Attacked-Riverside-Park-Jogger-97967829.html

Does anybody here knows whether illegals report crimes to the police when they are the victims? Heard about the rape of a latin nanny in east harlem around a year ago, wonder whether it was reported.

Check this link from the times out with stats. Scroll to the bottom and you'll see that East Harlem is one of the 10 highest crime precincts. If you are looking for a "safe" nieghborhood. I'd go elsewhere, and this isn't a black,white spanish issue, just look at the number of crimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/07/11/nyregion/20100711-stop-and-frisk.html

I have friends in central Harlem, and had a buddy who lived in East Harlem - didn't like the teenagers hanging out in the halls and stoop out front. I wouldn't want my girlfriend/wife/daughter walking around there at night, and i grew up in East New York.

"dangerous black men lying in wait to prey on any white woman"
cherrywood, you gotta chill out. Nothing wrong about asking how safe a nieghborhood is.

But the best thing to do is go there, check out the nieghborhood, walk around at different times of day/night, and you can even ask at the local precinct what they think of your block/area. If my daughter wanted to move there, that's what i would do (and then offer her some money to move downtown).

"I am white and I live in Harlem, and I feel safer and more secure in my neighborhood than in some parts of Hell's Kitchen, the LES and Times Square."

I don't live in any of those neighborhoods, so I'm a bit more objective, and I go to them all regularly (have 2 friends in harlem I'm at a couple times a month, plus my mechanic is up there) and I definitely feel safer in HK, LES, and Times Sq (with the possible exception of maybe the middle of the projects near 9 and c and the other near 5 & b) than I do when uptown. Even the major train stations can get very interesting.

I think its unreasonable to say that ALL of Greater Harlem is more dangerous. I.E. North of 106th west of the park and 96th east of the park to 155th, river to river.

HOWEVER yes some parts are sketchier than others, particularly the area TOP is speaking of.

And yes, the crime rate and violent crime rates are also indeed higher than parts of Harlem in certain parts of Manhattan below 96th.

One of my friends with an African American wife explored living on Central Park North. When they were going to see the apartment, the wife felt safer taking a cab rather than walking!!!

one of the friends lives on 3rd in the 1teens.

If I were you, walk it, particularly at night. See how you feel.

Even during the day, its a bit sketchy around there.

Just a reminder: feelings are for therapy sessions; police crime statistics are for determining the relative safety of an area.

Only if the things you worry about are only reported crimes.

Not to mention, the stats leave out part of the story. What you really want to know is likellihood you're getting involved in a crime, which the crime stats blend out. There might be a high number (or low number) of people in the area over the course of a day vs. living there, which will affect the stat.

Also, if you're the only white single female in the area, that can affect - up or down - your likelihood to be a target vs. others in the neighborhood..

Many "higher crime" areas south of the part are places where less people live, but there are more bars and clubs (often filled by folks from other neighborhoods) which can be the source of trouble. Does that make you unsafe if you're not partaking in the nightlife?

point is, you have to go beyond the stats.

I think both are important - stats and how you feel. But I think its fair to say that "east harlem...110th - 130th" is not the safer part of harlem, and both feel and stats support this based on what people are writing.

^^Exactly. I am a blatino male and I both "feel" less safe there than say over by Columbia or on FDB below 125th, and indeed the crime stats SAY its less safe.

Oddly, its about the same price to live below 110th - the prices seem to magically drop at 96th. And the crime stats show that below 106th on the East is like 40% safer...so why live so high up.

That having been said, if you are very near the subway stop in a doorman building, maybe its ok. There is some brand new doorman highrise at 124th/2nd. But I find that, just as when I lived in 10006 (BPC/FiDi), I always take cabs home at night.

If you're nervous about any neighborhood don't move there.

Well said, Julia.

I hate to even write this but, one of the funniest things I ever read was following Obama's acceptance speech someone asked, "how did it go"?
The answer was..."He didn't say...Where da white women at"?
So I guess everything went fine!

Now the real deal: Harlem has come a long way. Not long enough to allow my 20yr old white daughter to live there. It's not racial bias...statistical analysis. Anything can happen anywhere to anyone. The question is...based on past data...what are the odds? Slightly higher would be enough for me.
All that being said, I also would not let my daughter live on east 78TH between 1st & 2nd. That's the 'push in' rape/robbery capital of Manhattan. It's a dark street with lots of walk-ups, trees, minor traffic and no doorman buildings on the block.
Ya roll the dice, ya takes ya chances.

78th bt. 1 and 2nd...i almost rented there last year..I had no idea but I can see your point..this has taught me to look at the block, not just the apartment..thanks

This is so crazy. If you have to ask, already you don't feel safe. Find something else.

^^^^But feelings are OFTEN totally irational. If you ask MANY people from outside NYC, including people I knew back home in California, they would say about THE ENTIRE CITY "Ohhh, but its so unsafe! Aren't you scared?" When I got into NYU for my MBA, college educated people in SF and LA said they would be afraid to move to anywhere in NYC and said I should try and go to stanford or Cal.

EVEN AFTER I pointed out that the crime stats UNAMBIGUOUSLY said crime and violent crime was more prevalent in both SFF and LA (and by a LOT), they did not believe me.

So by your logic, no one should move here at all.

No, going by your "feelings" alone is plain stupid.

But the comments above are from new yorkers who know the area , have been there and have known people who lived there. The stats also show that it's not as safe as adjacent neighborhoods. So these are comments are not coming from the west coast. And besides your pals probably haven't hung out in NYC, while most people have on this board have been in Harlem.

Why Harlem? Is it because it is close to your school?

Why do people feel unsafe in Times Sq? Is it the life size M&M's or the naked cowboy?

it's HARLEM, for Christ's sake. How safe do you THINK it is???

"But the comments above are from new yorkers who know the area , have been there and have known people who lived there."

How many people who live in Manhattan have spent ANY time there? Before I moved to Harlem, pretty much 0.00% of my time was spent above 96th. I also knew nothing about Riverdale, and was shocked when I happened to go there. Who knew the Bronx had such a nice area? Mind you, this was in my 8th year in NYC.

I was born and raised in San Francisco, and can say with absolute certainty that I still know next to nothing about Hunter's point, Glen Park, and generally anything along the ocean or south of Army Street. Most people in SF or LA or any big city know very little about lots of their cities.

My mom lived in LA. Until I was in my 30s, I had NO IDEA that inside the city of Los Angeles, but in the valley, areas as nice as Sherman Oaks or Encino or Studio City even existed. I also still have never laid eyes on East LA.

And so on.

As for Matt's comment - sheer ignorance. Merely stating the name of neighborhood tells you nothing. And as i said, people back home mistakenly thought ALL of New York, and ALL of Manhattan, was much more violent and dangerous than it was. in fact it was and is much SAFER than SF or LA, and Harlem in particular has (I say it again) lower overall and lower violent crime rates on average than St. Louis, Memphis, Cleveland, Nashville, Kansas City, Tulsa, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, o Chicago, Toledo, Wichita, and Oklahoma City, among other cities.

If you simply said "which is safer, Harlem or Kansas City or Cleveland", people would CERTAINLY not realize that the latter two, and the others I listed have crime rates 20% or more higher than Harlem.

So relative to Manhattan, yes generally higher, though it varies by the specific part. But relative to other big cities that you woudl "feel" safe in or that "sound" safe, actually quite a bit safer.

And I chalk most of the delta up to fear of black and latino people, pure and simple.

"And I chalk most of the delta up to fear of black and latino people, pure and simple."

A justified fear considering that black and latino people make up the majority of the prison population.

'A justified fear considering that black and latino people make up the majority of the prison population."

They are much more likely to be pulled over by police for "random" checks, much more likely to be convicted by juries, and much more likely to get longer sentences than white perpetrators or suspects, as per virtually all the literature on the subject.

The disparities between cocain and marijuna arrests versus usage between demographic groups ALONE is almost half the reason. As in, whites use MJ at about the same rate, per every poll on the topic, but blacks are several times more likely to get arrested for minor pot possesion. Once arrested, equalizing for past criminal behavior and teh amount of pot involved, black and latinos get considerably longer prison sentences and are much less likely to be assigned rehab than whites.

I could go on, but the notion that blacks and latinos are inherently more violent is absurd.

I think the issue is about safe neighborhoods, and I doubt that anyone that KNOWS the area can say to the girl who started this thread that east Harlem is safe.

Remember her initial question is will it be safe. And the answer is simply not compared to other parts of manhattan including central Harlem. It's just a fact regardless if whites, blacks or greens live there. It's safer when compared to Brownsville or east ny, but it's one of ten most crime ridden precincts in NYC.

Uh . . . no, a_g, her initial question was not whether east Harlem will be safe "regardless if whites, blacks or greens [I assume you mean environmentalists] live there.' She specifically identifies herself as "Polish and Irish . . . the palest girl on the black." So her question, title of the thread notwithstanding, was clearly whether this are of Harlem is safe for a WHITE woman in her 20s. Needless to say, there are thousands of non-white women in their 20s who live in East Harlem, and who are probably safer there than they would be in . . . say, Howard Beach. Just a bit of racial realism . . . and honesty about the true subject of this discussion, which is neighborhood safety FOR WHITE PEOPLE.

^^^^ "the palest girl on the black" ^^^^

oops, we know what your thinking about

Good eye, wanderer. The "typo" was intentional, BTW.

Cherry, this is kind of ridiculous. Even if she was black or Spanish, you can't argue about the neighborhoods relative safety....see link
http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map
I couldn't open it at the moment but I'm sure it's going to show more homicides for E. Harlem than other areas.
And she did write "will it be safe". And my answer is not compared to other nearby areas, what's your answer?
Stop turning this into a black/white issue. It's obvious to everyone that black/Latin areas in the inner city generally do tend to have higher crime rates, and that's just a fact not racist!
And as a kid I used to visit a buddy in Brownsville and he was very cautious not to have me or our Asian friend seen too often, cause being white in his apt. Complex you stood out like a sore thumb. So in that situation being white can make more of a target, probably not true nowadays in east Harlem, but the area is still high in crime period.

I'd move to Central/West Harlem...east Harlem is still pretty rough.

"Stop turning this into a black/white issue. It's obvious to everyone that black/Latin areas in the inner city generally do tend to have higher crime rates, and that's just a fact not racist!

...as a kid I used to visit a buddy in Brownsville"

Stop right there. The crime rates in OTHER predonominatley black areas in the Tri-state area are MUCH migher than in Harlem, even than east Harlem. Converserly, as I said previously and will say again, the crime rate in greater harlem is lower on average, by far, than in many overwhelmingly white mid-west cities.

Second, your crime map is a retarded tool. It does not show PER CAPITA rates of crime, just in absolute terms. Since housing density is not uniform, and since large swaths of Manhattan are barely residential, the map is misleading.

The new yorker map from above is a bit more helpful, as it color codes by crime per 1,000 people. Yours says nothing unless you know that East and Central harlem are far more densely populated than FiDi or the West Village.

I would go by how comfortable you feel walking in the neighborhood alone at night. That's very subjective but no one wants to feel uneasy in own neighborhood regardless of how (un)warranted the fear.

I would not go by reported crime statistics because every cop I've known has said that crime statistics are manipulated for political purposes and totally unreliable to measure a neighborhood's safety. It's pretty well-known that crime in Harlem is under reported. All offenses short of a homicide can be classified any number of ways, or just omitted altogether.

If you need sources to determine a neighborhood's safety, then ask a cop or some of the neighborhood merchants and they'll give you a much more accurate assessment of the neighborhood's safety than raw crime data.

"east and Central harlem are far more densely populated than FiDi or the West Village."

FiDi is one of the most densely populated places in the entire world during business days. Just because not many people sleep there doesn't mean that it's not densely populated.

Anything else common sense that I might add here would be accused of being "racist," so I guess I have nothing else to add.

Any tool, any link, any stat indicates that East Harlem is amongst the least safe nieghorhoods in the city. No matter whether you look at population density, area, etc. You honestly can't answer this girl's question "Is it safe?" with a "yes". You can't compare it to the W.Village or FiDi.

I remember helping a friend move out an apt near 116th and 1st Ave years ago. While it wasn't anything like Brownsville, and I felt safe walking around, I still wouldn't have my 20 year old daughter live there alone, even if she was black or spanish, and for the record I believe that much of East harlem is predominantly Latino not Black.

Is white collar crime a problem in the African-American and Latino community? No, it is a crime perpetrated almost exclusively by Caucasians/Jews. Is violent crime a problem in the African-American and Latino community? Yes.

Let us not confuse reality with niceties. Harlem is not a great neighborhood, it is dangerous. I know the hood. I do not need statistics or pie charts and if you haven't lived there then don't try to defend it. I was raised there during the crack wars, my family "escaped". When I visit my friend (her family lives on 115th), I am grateful to life that I don't live there anymore.

To the poster who constantly brings up racism, if you don't address the problems in your community, the problems persist. Yes there is racism. Subtle and pervasive, ESPECIALLY with regard to the African-American community. African-Americans and Latinos are NOT "inherently" predisposed to commit violent crimes, but they more likely DO. THAT is why they are more likely to be pulled over, frisked, questioned. When Hasidim or Tibetans start gang raping women or holding up liquor store or brandishing weapons or selling crack then we will talk about this new problem. Until then, it doesn't matter if people are racist or not, because [reality check], there shouldn't be so much crime committed by African-Americans and Latinos, they are not the only poor populations in NYC. There are poor Polish, Koreans, Irish, Indians, etc. and there is no such problem of violent crime.

"Cherry, this is kind of ridiculous. Even if she was black or Spanish, you can't argue about the neighborhoods relative safety....see link
http://projects.nytimes.com/crime/homicides/map
I couldn't open it at the moment but I'm sure it's going to show more homicides for E. Harlem than other areas. "

I can't believe this is still being argued. Look at the fing map. Its almost completely blue north of the park.

There is simply more crime. It is simply less safe.

And "feel" absolutely matters, its rediculous to only look at one part of the equation.

Are the streets well lit on your path from subway? Are their open stores or doormen on your path? Are there enough people around to to reduce the likelihood of an attack in the area? Is there a lot of loitering?

There is a reason the call it "street smart". Not paying attention, and only looking at blended stats... is just stupid.

I did say, for several posts now, that east harlem above 110th is dangerous. Per the stats. Like, the 4th, 10th, 15th, 23rd posts or something.

well when you write stuff like "The crime rates in OTHER predonominatley black areas in the Tri-state area are MUCH migher than in Harlem, even than east Harlem" & "the crime rate in greater harlem is lower on average, by far, than in many overwhelmingly white mid-west cities." it sounds contradictory to "east harlem above 110th is dangerous"

I live in harlem and I'll say a few things:

1) I will admit that Harlem is MORE dangerous than lower manhattan. Crime stats are misleading, for the reasons people have pointed out - daytime populations as well as difficulty quantifying one's actual risk. As somewherelse pointed out, a lot of the crime downtown is late-night partying turned wrong ... but in Harlem much of it is between people who know each other.

2) I think the "slighter higher is enough for me" argument is flawed. Would you move to a nice section of LA where the murder rate was low but you'd have to drive everywhere? The reality is New Yorker's die in traffic accidents (car on car, car on pedestrian) at 1/4 the rate of anywhere in the country, and this is the single greatest threat to a young person.

The prescincts that make up East and Central Harlem each have about 10 murders per year on average over the last several years, and each has a population in excess of 100,000. The car accident risk nationwide is statistically about 14 in 100,000. So the average Harlemite has a 3.5 in 100,000 chance of dying in a traffic accident (1/3 the national rate). So on a purely average basis, this is 13.5 in 100,000 vs. 14 in 100,000 nationwide. But consider that 75% of murders are between those who know eachother, and even the vast majority of stranger murders result from disputes. Sure, 1/3 or traffic accidents involve alcohol - but this isn't anywhere near the percent of murders that are between those who know eachother. So if you live in Harlem and don't associate with criminals and aren't prone to violent arguments, you're MUCH safer than if you live in Beverly Hills.

So, the point is, yes there is GREATER risk, but statistically this risk is close to zero.

3) That said, "feeling" safe matters. It's not fun to live somewhere you don't feel comfortable. Life's too short. I personally feel comfortable in Central Harlem until about 10-11 pm. I don't walk past 11 pm ... but this is a non-issue at this point in my life. If I'm out late, I can take a taxi.

The standard I'd use is
1. first-hand experience with actual, specific crime by an individual resident
2. second-hand experience with actual, specific crime by an individual resident's neighbor or that resident's visitors

Third-hand and beyond: useless

I think you'll find that in destination neighborhoods like the West Village (which has the worst crime), drunken/drugged/letting-loose visitors commit crimes that involve total strangers, including residents. In places like Harlem, the crimes are more "inside" -- drug deals, owed money, people leaving the same apartment party.

My point, a-g, is that East harlem above 110th is RELATIVELY more dangerous (by almost 2X) than from 96th-110th, and much more even than the UES from 59th-96th. RELATIVE to most of Manhattan below 96th, the area TOP is dangerous, per the stats.

RELATIVE to East Harlem, south Centrel Harlem is safe. RELATIVE to that, northern Central Harlem is not. RELATIVE to all of the above, Morningside Heights is safer.

The definition of greater harlem is above 106th west of the park and above 96th east of the park to 155th, RIVER TO RIVER, per the New York Times. The police precints make the western lower border 110th.

RELATIVE to other predominatly blatino areas in the tri-state region (parts of the Bronx, Brooklyn, Newark, etc) all of the above is safer.

RELATIVE to St. Louis, Memphis, Cleveland, Nashville, Kansas City, Tulsa, Minneapolis, Indianapolis, Chicago, Toledo, Wichita, and Oklahoma City, all the areas of Harlem I mention have lower crime rates.

There, its all in one post for you.

I think we're stereotyping. There are frequent bodega shootings in this city as well. We don't know the breakdown of what types of crime come from where.

How about proximity to drug treatment centers - or just seeing the people walking on the street - is handy to look at. Again, more than just the blended stats too.

You have to look at multiple stats, and then use some common sense.

With the downtown crime we're speaking of, you have an excellent chance of avoiding it if you aren't at the bars or hanging outside with the drunks.

Would be interesting to see daytime crime rates.

Jason a - agreed. And RELATIVE to almost everywhere else in the country you're less likely to die of non-natural causes in Harlem than in LA. Your risk of being murdered might be a tiny bit higher than if you lived South of 96th street (but this is hard to quantify as so much of the murders in Harlem are thugs to thugs), but your risk of dying in other ways is lower than if you lived anywhere else in the country. So all in all, you are pretty safe.

"With the downtown crime we're speaking of, you have an excellent chance of avoiding it if you aren't at the bars or hanging outside with the drunks."

... disagree COMPLETELY: once a mean drunk is thrown out of a bar, he's loose on the streets with no nearby destination, and ready to take it out on the people and places closest at hand.

"With the downtown crime we're speaking of, you have an excellent chance of avoiding it if you aren't at the bars or hanging outside with the drunks."

And you have an excellent chance of avoiding violent crime in harlem if you do not live in or know anyone in the projects, as the vast majority of violent crime in harlem is between people who know each other and is far more likely to happen in the projects.

Conversely, there is much more stranger on stranger violence in meatpacking, West Village, etc...ergo the "will i be safe in this area" questions are more relavent to THOSE places. The random mugger on the street stabbing you are far less likely in Harlem.

Honestly, i think that the subway system in NYC makes it easier for thugs to come perhaps from Harlem of the Bronx or BK or Newark to BETTER HUNTING GROUNDS. Why prey in a poor neighborhood when you can go where better off tourists and recently graduated drunk frat stars roam?

So drunk or sober, a single woman walking alone in the West Village on a deserted street is more likely to encounter a mugger than in most of harlem, IMO. And that is what TOP is afraid of.

"Why prey in a poor neighborhood when you can go where better off tourists and recently graduated drunk frat stars roam?"

... it's true. I hate the long ride to the West Village, but the money's so good it's worth the schlep.

There's other types of crime (other than murder, stabbings, bar fights) that affect quality of life. Yes, your liklihood of being murdered in east harlem is still miniscule, even though higher than downtown, BUT what about smaller crimes like.... like teens loitering on your stoop, music blasting at night, smoking weed in your buildings' staircase, urination in staircases or elevators. I've been to apt buildings in and around housing projects before and this is the type of stuff you encounter. Chinese food not delivered to your door, cause the delivery guys are afraid of getting mugged in the building, so you gotta go outside and pick it up. And even though you're not in a gang, and have a minute chance of being murdered by a gang member, there is a gang presence in E.Harlem.

Well I live in doorman building that is market rate and brand new and get none of the above, but DID when I lived in hell's kitchen when in school.

> music blasting at night

So true!!! Everybody i know that lives on Washington Heights complains about the reggaeton. The volume and the music is killing their quality of life.

> urination in staircases or elevators.

I've seen that in one building in Harlem that we went to check out while we were living in Morningside Heights. OMG! It was a total change of environment in just a few blocks. I've never been in an elevator/toilet before, and I'm including bad elevator experiences from the subway. This was beyond disgusting.

> there is a gang presence in E.Harlem.

extend that to west Harlem, where The Wire could be filmed without added extras.

notadmin, I guess some things don't changes, I lived in a housing complex right outside of East New York, and am glad i don't have to go back to that now. the things i mentioned are memories from HS and prior 15-20 yrs ago.

forgot to mention finding crack vials in the sandbox, that was the worst.

ag, this wasn't a project though, but hey, it felt like one.

When I lived in HK, I saw people peeing, and once even shitting on the sidewalk. people, not dogs.

When I lived in Fidi/BPC, frat star jr bankers would get drunk and vomit, piss, through cigarette buts, empty beer bottles and cans, and so forth from the roof deck onto my deck. The dog I dog sat would often come in with such things in her mouth. And I caught them doing a few times.

They had loud parties so often the building kept sending out memos on the topic.

And at least once I had to physically toss one out for calling me a "fag."

Don't hear people too often saying its dangerous to live in Fidi or even (anymore) HK.

And such wonderfully fratastic behavior is also common in the upper-upper east side, murry hill, the village, east village, and lately LES. But when white aberzombies do it it makes the neighborhood "trendy."

Racism.

Clearly living in an "emerging" neighborhood you want to live on a nice building and street. On nicer streets/buildings this is not really an issue. It's the same as living in a "going out" neighborhood like the West Village - plenty of quality of life issues if you live next to a bar that draws a big crowd or if you live in a fratty building in FiDi or Murray Hill. I assure you in a nice doorman building on FDB, or a floor-through in a nice brownstone on a residential block, or in one of the buildings in the part of East Harlem Jason is in, people aren't urinating in the hallways. I wouldn't want to live in one of the tenamant buildings in the East Village right near the projects either.

I think regardless of where you live in the city it's worth visting the immediate area a few times to make sure you understand what you're getting into. Probably more so in Harlem, but that doesn't mean the entire area should be dismissed.

One anecdotal turn deserves another. I came home late one night to the apartment I sold in Chelsea a couple of years ago to find a couple-- straight, white-- engaged in full-on (backdoor) sexual intercourse on the front stoop; during the 15 years I lived in the neighborhood, I routinely heard about marauding gangs of young white men coming to Chelsea from the outer boroughs to bash Chelsea's gay/lesbian residents (one of my straight white male condo neighbors once had the misfortune of being mistaken for gay by some of these thugs). I won't even mention the times I found white people smoking pot, drinking alcohol, peeing, and eating and dumping their lunches and dinners on the stoops or in the planters next to them. Jason is absolutely right . . . racism.

East Harlem...."The neighborhood contains the highest geographical concentration of low income public housing projects in the United States. There are twenty-four NYCHA developments located in East Harlem."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Harlem#Low_income_public_housing_projects

Its absolutely not comprable. How much time has cherry and jason spent in a or near a housing project. They breed crime. This discussion is entertaining but let's just end it in by telling this woman in her 20's that "renting in east harlem...110th - 130th" is "is dangerous" as jason put it.

"How many people who live in Manhattan have spent ANY time there?"

I have.

I am not saying that such things don't happen in Harlem, or that they don't happen all the time in the projects. However, TOP is NOT saying "I want to move to the projects." She said she wanted to move to a part of East Harlem. If you live in a newer or nice doorman building, market rate or even "moderate" income you won't see any of what is described above, or at least very little. Not violent crime, but the public unrination, etc.

Conversely, for the EXACT SAME PRICE you pay for a doorman new bldg in east harlem with W/D in unit 2-bd/2bth, you can get a walk in Chesea with 2bds 1 bth and in fact, as cherrywood and I have described frequently see the public unination etc.

"... disagree COMPLETELY: once a mean drunk is thrown out of a bar, he's loose on the streets with no nearby destination, and ready to take it out on the people and places closest at hand."

And the people he's most likely running to are the ones coming in and out of those bars, smoking, etc.
If you are inferring that being part of that scene doesn't increase your likelihood of being part of that crime, you are nuts.

And you missed the rest of the post... this is also happening most at the later times when folks aren't in bars.
If you aren't in the bars, you also probably aren't running around outside the bars at 3am.

Hence me noting the daytime crime rates would be of particular interest.

FYI a_g, I currently live across the street from a housing project in Harlem, and have spent time over the years in the apartments of several people-- some of them relatives-- who live in housing projects.

We are all over thinking this...

Go...move to Harlem. Everyday in every way things change.

New York needs statistics too!

Que?

The idea that the crime is confined to the projects is nonsensical.

I grew up a couple hundred feet from the projects. There was a point in NYC history where the projects went from ok to really bad, when they changed the process for selection. I remember those years very well.

The change in the neighborhood was very dramatic. Crime jumped outside the projects for sure.
In the end, we shared the same strip malls, supermarket, delis, etc. with the projects.
We shared the same schools.

There were good people in the projects, and there were bad people in the projects. And, guess what, the bad people occasionally left their apartments! and they'd sometimes be in the same places as me.

And then, guess what, the demographic of the neighborhood outside the projects changes as well.

If you have a doorman, great, that in itself will help (just as it does in good neighborhoods). But pretending that the projects are these walled off cities is just not accurate.

I have friends who moved into a nice doorman building across from the projects on 103. They're been fairlys afe in the building. Do they take to take a lot of precaution coming home from the subway? Yes. Does the doorman help there? Only on the last block. They're always talking about how its worse for her than him, but its worth it for the price.

I have another friend with no doorman, he had a push-in.

The claims that the projects are isolated is just not intelligent. There is an effect. Does it mean move/don't move? Of course not. But you need to consider all the elements.

"The idea that the crime is confined to the projects is nonsensical."

Epic and complete fail. I did NOT say crime was LIMITED to the projects. I said most violent crime in Harlem occurs between people who know each other. Most violent crime in the United States occurs between people who know each other. Around 70-80%, according to most sources, including the FBI crime stats.

A disproportionately high percentage of all crime Harlem occurs in low-income housing.

Ergo, if you do not live in, or know anyone who lives in low income housing in Harlem, you are about four times safer than those who do.

HOWEVER, in meatpacking, times square, the West Village, and a few other high (for Manhattan) areas frequented by tourists and/or bar/club/etc patrons, the reverse is true - most serious crime is stranger on stranger.

Given the actual crime stats, you are therefore more likely to be raped or mugged or stabbed or shot by a stranger in these latter places.

That does not, however, mean that I claimed ALL crime is limited to the projects.

I took the bus home the other night (didn't have cab fare) and had to walk about 3 blocks and I felt nervous..it was very late and very quiet on the side streets...I live in a "safe" neighborhood but it's still scary out there no matter where you live.

It all has to do with your own comfort level. You'll be fine, pale gal of Irish and Polish extraction ----- just don't emit vibes of OMG, am I gonna be a victim? You'll be fine. However, if you can't feel comfy and confident, live elsewhere until you grow a pair ......

p.s. White people in Harlem are safer than black people in Harlem. It's a corollary to: white people are basically safer everywhere ...... (except in some of the weird and isolated areas near the heavy projects in Queens and Brooklyn).