12% Broker's Fee

On exclusives, I will lower the price if the owner agrees. I have also lowered the fee. However, once both have been reduced I won't entertain further reductions for either.

If it's a matter of affordability and the agent won't agree you should continue searching. However, if you're just trying to strike a deal for yourself I wouldn't hold out too long. There's nothing keeping the agent from showing the property to others while you're dragging your feet.

Scott K
Bond New York

>On exclusives, I will lower the price if the owner agrees.

The apartment owner pays your commissions?

I was referring to the price of the apartment.

I have seen references to a %12 broker's fee being the "standard corporate rate"
- there's nothing "standard" about rates. negotiable to a point. do your thing and negotiate, just know your uncle point and theirs. if, as you say, unit/building is popular, in the current market, someone else could easily take it and pay 15%.

I am currently trying to negotiate down a broker's fee from %15 (while staying in the running for the apartment I'd like to have; it's a condo rental).
- if not an exclusive, you won't know about other applications being submitted and you may lose the apt anyway. I've worked with brokers who charge 1 month to 15%. depends on company and agent. some are more flexible than others. just ask.

bottom line, know your max budget and live within your means...walk away if it doesn't work.

justmy2, good luck.

12% is totally fair....more work for the agent in a condo building.

Thanks for your comments, everyone. We got the %12 fee, stayed within our budget, and it looks like we got the apartment too.

How can 12% be fair? If the monthly rent is 2,500, then the comm is 4,500. I understand there is a split between brokers/firms but if you only show a few apartments and you get to keep say $1,000, you are making what a good lawyer makes, without going to law school. Even Eliot's prostitute had to work harder to earn 1,000.

whether it's fair or not doesn't matter. it is a discount off the norm of 15% (or, 1.8 X monthly). it's funny how this continues to illicit such outrage. either pay it or don't. there are apartents to be had out there with no fee (but higher rents usually).

Agents do much more than just show apartments to their clients. There is a tremendous amount of work before, during, and after.

Ahahaha! Good one, kimokc!

sledge, give kimokc the benefit of the doubt on the before and during. But what possibly could be the after?

In general, I mostly hear of people paying a broker a 1 month rental fee which comes out to about an 8% fee.  But in my own recent experience I paid the broker who listed a apartment online a 12% fee which came to $4,000.  I few days after I moved into my apartment I saw my apartment rental listed on nybits.com for $230 less in monthly rent than my lease agreement.  After a few months and getting to know the building owner's leasing staff I learned why - this particular landlord pays all brokers a "1 month fee" on all apartments they rent. The landlord recaptures the 1 month fee paid to the broker by just adding it to the tenants rent spread out equally over 12 months. So for me the impact was roughly $230 extra in monthly rent. So the broker I worked with got paid a fee from me + the land lord. And I am technically paying the fee the land lord paid to the broker via my rent.  So bottom line I paid 4,000 + $2,750=$6,750 in fees for this apartment rental. Obviously, this was a shady transaction and I'm sure not every broker is as slimy as the guy but like most other areas of the country, I think the owner of the equity/apartment should pay the broker fee on rentals (buying a home/apt is different).  But realistically, because there is such high demand in NYC it's a dirty game and the renters will always loose.  If you can afford it or have been hitting the pavement and working very closely with 1 particular broker obviously its more of a situation were the broker is working for you and not the land lord and deserves a fee and from what I hear other people paying its about 8% (summer 2011). In my case the broker met me at the apartment, stuck a key in the door and showed the place. we than headed to his office and I filled out application, credit check, etc..took about an hour and the deal was done. This broker did not deserve $7,000 for 2 maybe 3 hours of his time.

Elemental, you make a very good point. Most renters don't seem to take this process very seriously. Instead of calling one agent, they call 5...A DAY! Those are known as "one and done". In other words, they called on one apartment and that's the only apartment they want to see. They also don't want to come into the office and register or fill out the disclosure form. They're very clear in telling you they only want to see one apartment. I have a standard line, "when you're ready to begin searching for your next home, please call and I will be more than happy to assist you".

You wouldn't have your initial meeting with your doctor or lawyer on a street corner. Why would you meet someone who you'd like to help you find your next home on a street corner? Many are perfectly content to do that. Many renters come into my office not knowing who they've seen apartments with, and not remembering what they've seen. All of this is a side effect of "one and done".

If you bring a strategy to your search, and work closely with an professional agent who makes it clear he/she is working tirelessly to find you your next home, the fee is worth every penny. And most agents do work tirelessly to find you your next home and deserve the compensation they receive. But if you have a blase attitude towards your apartment search you will encounter nothing but blase people along the way.

Scott K
Bond New York

Scott, maybe you take your "home" schtick (that's a NY term) a little too seriously. Maybe many of your prospective clients don't view their next apartment as their "home" but rather just an interim place to set up camp? How many of these people calling have a spouse and kids in tow? They are renting, they aren't looking for something long term, this isn't their home. Your clever retort is a joke on you, not on them. For this most expensive 1 bedroom apartment among your listings: http://www.bondnewyork.com/nyc_apartment_listing_127652.htm , they don't view you as their doctor, they don't view you as their lawyer to help them out of a jam with real legal consequences.

Scott works for a schlock firm so his opinion isn't worth shit, but what I can say is that a 12 percent fee represents a 20 percent discount and that could mean a few thousand dollars. Jump on it.

Sign up before his higher-ups realize what a pussy he is and fire him.

scott gives his name and his contact info, unlike you honesy. i don't trust him per se, but i find his basic ethics level seemingly to be so far above yours honesy that numbers couldn't even quantify.

And yet front porch gives her details too and appears to be very transparent in her dealings, but you and your buddies don't seem to want to cut her a break.

Ar, you've been proven a stupid syncophant plus a horrible parent and a generally horrible bitch slut cunt negligent parent for a number of years now. So who really cares what your opinions might be?

Huntersburg, you missed my point which was that the importance you place on your search determines the experience you have.

aboutready, thank you. I can get nasty with the best of them but I sign my name as a reminder to be professional. jim_hones11 has shown that he uses a pseudonym for the purpose of doing the opposite.

>Ar, you've been proven a stupid syncophant plus a horrible parent and

I'm not so sure that this is intentionally a horrible parent. But medical professionals didn't want her around her daughter and that's what we have to go by.

Brickunderground wisely cut you off so you've returned to the only forum you can spout your bullshit from. Does the ps 40 PTA not indulge your need to spout off enough?

>Huntersburg, you missed my point which was that the importance you place on your search determines the experience you have.

I don't disagree at all with that statement. But I dont' agree that you then understand your audience.

I've been searching for an apartment for the last two weeks. This is my fourth search in the last two years. I can say without hesitation that a broker is absolutely, positively, unequivocally NOT worth 12%.

For Scott K to compare a broker with a doctor or lawyer - hell, even to suggest a broker is a "professional" - is comical at best and borderline retarded at worst.

To quote Tom Cruise from the movie Tropic Thunder - "A nutless monkey can do your job." People become brokers because they are starving and are attempting to miraculously find a way to pay their own rent and poney-up for a month's supply of ramen noodles.

No disrespect Scott K. Most everyone has worked at least one crappy job we can all look back on and laugh, telling the crazy stories of how we somehow managed to make ends meet working one of the worst jobs in the history of mankind.

The only difference between us and you is that we realize how crappy our jobs were; I can see you're still struggling to figure that out.

You're not a professional. Your just a dude with holes on the bottom of his shoes that works in a profession where the value added falls significantly below the value received. Unfortunately for you, the only person really getting rich is the firm itself. Once you eventually figure that out, you can move on to a real job where you can afford to buy a new pair of shoes.

But hey, maybe you keep that pair with the holes on the bottom to remind yourself just how crappy your job was.

Wow. I'm a little surprised at the responses. But EXACTLY guys!!! Your responses highlight the differences in professionalism/personalities among brokers in the NYC market and help buyers/renters see the type of people they are really dealing with.

Scott- Not sure I buy 100% of what you say but you seem professional and like a guy who likes his job. I do have a friend who used bond a few years back (before 2008 economy crash) in finding her current condo- not a lot of condos in NYC but she wanted one and who ever she worked with at bond found her one. Have only heard good feedback on Bond NY.

Huntersburg thanks for the direct link to Scott's contact info.

Really sad to hear all these negative pt of view on brokers. I worked in finance for close to 9 years & my last place was at Lehman Brother. I was burn out from the 12 plus hrs a day, no daylight, no interaction from people & no satisfaction from sending out endless Excel spreadsheet.

When LB came to an end, it gave me an opportunity to do something I really enjoy. People and real estate.

I am proud to say that I work hard, honestly and think on behalf of my clients. I know we have a bad reputation on the street which makes me look even better when I go above and beyond for my clients (help a client physically move, brought an ac unit for a student renter, took clients out for drinks and etc)

Try to look at broker on an individual basic...I am not the "one and done" as over 80% of my clients are from referrals.

Plus the commission is a fine balance. Whenever possible I charge a client the lowest amount possible which is 1 mth. If there is a unit that is way below market price and I need to cobroke, my client still save money when the fee is amortize over 1 year. Additionally, my clients would've never find that unit in the 1st place. Not all units are listed and getting access, knowing how to work w various owners and property managements to get an application approved is where we add value.

Lastly, I could easily go back to Finance for the security and benefits but I truly enjoy what I do. Hope my story changes some of the perception out there of us.

Scott and other agents - I think what you're missing, from a client's perspective, regarding the one-and-done types is that we (clients) do not want to get stuck with a shi**y broker. Let's not pretend there aren't many slimy brokers out there, and let's also not pretend there aren't at least a few good ones. The problem is, using the vast anecdotal evidence provided by the SE boards, most of us have had more experiences with sleazy brokers than professional ones.

So given that, why would I want to enter a broker's office for a full sit-down when I'm running the risk that I'm going to sign a disclosure form, the broker is going to show me a ton of apts, insist upon a non-negotiable 15%, and then I'm going to be shi* out of luck if I walk away because I just signed an agreement not allowing to rent any of these apts via another broker who may be more willing to negotiate on fees? This is not an outlandish hypothetical - I've seen this happen way too many times in 10 years of living and renting in the city (and I'm sure, Scott, you've seen your less upstanding colleagues pull this exact stunt).

I've found my last 3 apts on my own with no broker. Granted, I've devoted a tremendous amount of time each go around, but it's worth it to me for several reasons - 1) I feel more invested in my apt, 2) I have the satisfaction of knowing I didn't pay a sleazy broker thousands of dollars for what amounts to a few hours of work for me and 3) I've been renting in various condo buildings for the last 5 years and I've never found a broker who could show me a wide variety of condo units despite all claims.

Long post, but I would love for you to address my concerns regarding coming in to the office and signing a disclosure agreement (that's not sarcasm, I really would be interested to hear the perspective of a ethical broker).

If you'd like to talk to an ethical broker, it won't be with an agent from Bond then.

downright hilarious.

Which brokerage firms are in Columbia County?

Clearance -- I think just about everybody, including brokers who do rentals full-time, hates the way rentals work in NYC. I hate it so much that I do very few of them; I'm basically a sales broker.

But I can guarantee that within the next six months, I'll get a few calls to do rentals that I can't turn down. The call goes like this: Some "great friend" of Trusted Client X says they need a rental broker because their time is so valuable. (This person won't be lying about that; they will certainly make six figures a year, and might make seven)

This new client will say that they understand that I have existing sales clients, but that they're in a real pickle, and they hear I take care of my network; Trusted Client X said such great things about me!

Odds are *usually* that the new client (let's call him Y) is delightful. We'll find him a rental apartment, and I'll get paid, and he'll become a referrer so I grow my network: win-win.

But there's also a high percentage chance that that new client (let's now call her Z) will then proceed to run me around for two weeks and then switch horses, and not only not pay me, she'll commit the greater crime against my business of forgetting to refer her friends to me.

From Z's point of view, she won't even feel guilty about this; to her, it's no different from comparing the prices at Sears and Best Buy and then going to whichever is cheaper.

From the broker's point of view, however, it's a theft of my time, time which could have been monetized if I had been working with more ethical clients. (and complaining to Trusted Client X about the lousy behavior of his friends is, I can tell you through painful experience ... only going to lose me Trusted Client X).

So what a sit-down is as described above, I think, it's an attempt by a rental broker to frame the contract as "you're hiring my time, so I'd like to get paid when you find something."

If you choose, as a customer, not to participate in that contract (and it sounds like you don't want to, you'd rather "pay yourself" by using your own time) that's your right.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

front_porch
about 1 hour ago
ignore this person
report abuse Clearance -- I think just about everybody, including brokers who do rentals full-time, hates the way rentals work in NYC. I hate it so much that I do very few of them; I'm basically a sales broker.

But I can guarantee that within the next six months, I'll get a few calls to do rentals that I can't turn down. The call goes like this: Some "great friend" of Trusted Client X says they need a rental broker because their time is so valuable. (This person won't be lying about that; they will certainly make six figures a year, and might make seven)

This new client will say that they understand that I have existing sales clients, but that they're in a real pickle, and they hear I take care of my network; Trusted Client X said such great things about me!

Odds are *usually* that the new client (let's call him Y) is delightful. We'll find him a rental apartment, and I'll get paid, and he'll become a referrer so I grow my network: win-win.

But there's also a high percentage chance that that new client (let's now call her Z) will then proceed to run me around for two weeks and then switch horses, and not only not pay me, she'll commit the greater crime against my business of forgetting to refer her friends to me.

From Z's point of view, she won't even feel guilty about this; to her, it's no different from comparing the prices at Sears and Best Buy and then going to whichever is cheaper.

From the broker's point of view, however, it's a theft of my time, time which could have been monetized if I had been working with more ethical clients. (and complaining to Trusted Client X about the lousy behavior of his friends is, I can tell you through painful experience ... only going to lose me Trusted Client X).

So what a sit-down is as described above, I think, it's an attempt by a rental broker to frame the contract as "you're hiring my time, so I'd like to get paid when you find something."

If you choose, as a customer, not to participate in that contract (and it sounds like you don't want to, you'd rather "pay yourself" by using your own time) that's your right.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

32 comments

Most easily solved by not dealing with renters. Deal with owners. Agents with exclusives in place don't have to sweat loyalty from prosective renters (of which their is an infinite supply).

It is truly amazing how few agents understand this.

front_porch, thank you.

Ali,
You've gone overboard finally.

I can guarantee that within 6 months you'll receive a call from some prospective renter, call him Client Z, and you are Broker V. So Client Z runs around Broker V, stealing Broker V's time. Except within this 6 month period, Broker V demonstrated her complete knowledge and understanding of this very evident risk, and yet chose anyway to continue with it. In fact, Broker V even posted about her understanding of this risk on Streeteasy, for everyone to see, and even for Brick Underground to borrow for their own stories. Broker V is well educated and experienced, and had the opportunity to weigh the risk of Client Z vs. the probability of Client Y, or do what Broker JH suggested, and try a different business model.

Streeteasy Reader HB is perplexed. If you view the rental market as having Owners, Renters, and Brokers, I think we can all agree that the Renter, who participates in a transaction a maximum of 1x / year (except inonada who negotiated 5 rentals in 2 years) is the least influential. So for Broker V to call Renter Client Z a thief, doesn't seem to be right.

Any input from Senile Invalid cc?

always get brokers through personal referrals. everybody wins.

Hi Ali,

Thank you for the helpful response. I think part of the problem is we're looking at two completely different slices of the market. My girlfriend and I have a combined income in the $200-250k range, so we are looking in an entirely different stratosphere of rental apartments than your high six figure/seven figure earner clientele. It's very easy for me to understand why a broker such as yourself, who presumably is able to monetize their time with very large fees, requires a disclosure agreement. [N.B. – the rest of this post is entirely in regards to low/mid-market brokers.]

However, I *suspect* (please correct me if this is a mistaken assumption) that the mid-market brokers I work with do not generally overlap with that sort of clientele. Therefore, they are spending less time per client searching for apartments since they need to complete a nominally larger number of deals to get paid, meaning they have reduced incentives to be honest with any individual client. What this leads to from my perspective is a broker who is spending very little time helping me but then demands thousands of dollars should they happen to lead me to a suitable apartment OR should I rent in a building they showed me but through a broker who's willing to offer a lower fee. In other words, it feels like the broker is throwing a bunch of shi* at the wall and seeing what sticks – there is no skill or thought put in to the work and it winds up being a waste of my time, but the market structure makes this a profitable endeavor for the broker.

I appreciate your perspective on what the sit-down *should* be - basically an employment contract with contingency pay - but for this to be effective and keep both parties satisfied, I think 3 things are required:

1) Honesty on the part of the broker - only show units that meet the client's stipulations (respect my time), be upfront about any reimbursement arrangements you have with landlords of buildings being shown, don’t engage in any of the slimy behavior we’ve all read about/witnessed, etc

2) Honesty on the part of the client - don't arrange for the broker to show you a large number of buildings and then attempt to circumvent them by contacting the landlord directly (or other variations on this sort of shenanigan), inform the broker of buildings you have already seen/plan on seeing on your own and keep them informed as the search process continues (respect the broker's time), etc.

3) Since we need to assume neither 1 or 2 exist (while they assuredly DO exist, since there is no trust between rental brokers and their clients, all parties will behave as if they don't exist), then we need to have a negotiable disclosure agreement that includes release clauses for either party contingent upon fee levels, number of apartments shown that meet a very specific set of client criteria, time spent (I would be completely fine with a billable-hours model for example), etc. Yes, this requires perhaps a lengthier, uncomfortable client-broker meeting at the front-end of the process, but it saves both parties from feeling used at the back-end.

And there's the rub - since all parties behave as if 1 and 2 don't exist, and brokers refuse to engage in number 3 (in my experience – I’ve actually proposed this twice and been laughed at both times, which was expected), the NYC rental market at the low and mid ranges will continue to be a cluster fuc*.

I’m quite sure I could go on writing for pages on this topic, but it’s late and I think I’m no longer able to think linearly, so I’m signing off for now.

Clearance, please do not continue writing. It's difficult to follow.

I have a no fee 3 br apt for rent avail sept 1 UES - who wants it?

I do, I'll meet you at the corner of the Upper East Side at 10:30.

clearance, you sound like a completely straightforward human being, and I'm pleased to meet you, and I hope you keep me in mind when you decide to buy or sell.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

I can search on the interent and get in contact directly with agents and make appointments fast. Why don't the owners of the building pay the brokers fee? It is never clear. The agent at the end is working for them not for the renter. Unless the broker is the only one doing all the seaches and taking the client to view apartments. But should be and option for people that want to do their own searches and contact directly. I don't have time to go arrown the city viewing mostly overpriced crap selected by a third person that doesn't know really how I like to live. It is a completly waste of time.
12% is too high. The maximun fee should be one month rent for a broker that has worked for the renter. For the property agent, the owner should pay the fee.

imyownbroker
29 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse I can search on the interent and get in contact directly with agents and make appointments fast. Why don't the owners of the building pay the brokers fee? It is never clear. The agent at the end is working for them not for the renter. Unless the broker is the only one doing all the seaches and taking the client to view apartments. But should be and option for people that want to do their own searches and contact directly. I don't have time to go arrown the city viewing mostly overpriced crap selected by a third person that doesn't know really how I like to live. It is a completly waste of time.
12% is too high. The maximun fee should be one month rent for a broker that has worked for the renter. For the property agent, the owner should pay the fee.

why in a time of high demand would the owners ever consider paying a fee? for two years almost no one paid a fee. it's cyclical. funny to see the comments about this change as the market has turned. there are plenty of apartments tenants can find on their own with no fee. the choice between paying or not is completely up to them, but don't try and push the bill off on other people.

Ha, thanks Ali - such civility on a discussion board!

And should I ever graduate beyond the mid-range rental market, I will be sure to look you up.

gcondo, I'm interested in knowing more about your 3 bdrm UES for september 1.

Hey, can someone tell me if non-exclusive rental brokers are legally obligated to present all offers to the unit owners? This is for a multi-family dwelling, not a large building. A good friend is in negotiations for a broker-listed unit, and she's not sure her offer has been presented. The broker is requesting a 12% fee and her offer is below the asking price, so there appears to be a conflict of interest. The broker rejected the offer, however she's not convinced it was ever actually discussed with the unit owner. Any of the brokers on here care to weigh in?

Just to clarify, I mean a conflict of interest between the broker and my friend, not between the broker and his client of course. The concern is that the fee structure doesn't incentivize the broker to present this offer unless legally obligated.

Oh, and those of you who think we really work for the landlord and not the client should see some of the stunts landlords pull on our clients. I can't tell you how many times I've seen clients get called and told they didn't get an apartment because of (insert nonsense here). This was AFTER getting approved for the apartment!

clearance, if it's an open listing a landlord typically won't negotiate without a serious applicant. If it's an exclusive, I would inform the owner of an offer, regardless of legal obligation.

I think real estate brokerage business/profession is just like any other professions. There are good practitioners and there are bad ones. The rates and fees also vary depending on relationship, volume, and other aspects & terms of the business.

It is unfair to generalize. My feeling though is that given increasing flow of information to the public, that was once kept in closed circles of real estate professionals, different avenues of income for real estate professionals will spring up that are not completely tied to commissions. Not sure what they are as I am not in the business.

Understood, thanks NYCREagent.

What some of renters here seem to be misunderstanding is that the "Disclosure Agreement" is document legally required by NY Dept. of State to protect your interests as the consumer. Brokers that are trying to get you to sign that are following that mandate as required by law. These are the brokers you want to deal with because they are doing things "by the book".

A fee AGREEMENT on the other hand is a complete and separate document that the consumer and the broker sign to protect the broker's interest which is to make a living, ie: to get paid. All FEES ARE NEGTIOTABLE, which is also the law. So it's not 15% set in stone but that is the customary rate in NYC and something to work off of. If you don't like it, or can't afford to pay it, negotiate it down but keep in mind, that each fee is property specific so don't expect a broker to negotiate fees before they've shown you any properties.

What Brokers get paid for is their TIME, and KNOWLEDGE of the LAWS, PROPERTIES, and APPLICATION PROCESSES as well as other rules and regs of the RE industry.

Clearance42 you said "I've found my last 3 apts on my own with no broker. Granted, I've devoted a TEMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME each go around, but it's worth it to me for several reasons" but then in the next sentence you say "2) I have the satisfaction of knowing I didn't pay a sleazy broker thousands of dollars for what amounts to a few hours of work for me". So what was it, a tremendous amount of time or a few hours work?

Perhaps after the second time, after learning your way around the management companies, it was quicker and that's because you learned what brokers already know about how to navigate the market.

Clearance42, what value would you put on that amount of time you spent that first time around? How many hours did it really take you to find that apartment, doing searches, calling & setting appointments, coordinating with super's schedules, hoofing it around to all the apartments, submitting extensive condo applications, dealing with the building managing agents? What was the $$$ value of that TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF TIME?

Most professionals don't have time, the wear with all, or the desire to do all of that work. That is why they hire a broker and are happy to pay for the service. Imagine doing that same work described above for a few different sets of clients with different needs, everyday, all for free, until one signs a lease or closes on a sale. Many walk away with out even a simple explanation or thank you for your time. No one is obligated to stick with a broker if they don't like their service or they happen to find a better deal in another way but a little common courtesy wouldn't hurt.

Yes, there are many bad sleazy brokers as there are many bad and sleazy doctors’ lawyers, accountants, etc, but there are also many more good. Just as for every bad broker, there are about 3 good ones.

There's a scientific study that shows that people who have a bad experience with a professional will make 9 complaints about it but for every good experience the same people will only tell 3 people. Just look at what sells newspapers. People are fixated on bad news and badmouthing people, hence, all the badmouthing on these boards. There are far many more good brokers out there than bad otherwise there would be no brokerage industry. People vote with their pocketbooks. There are plenty more people that are fine with paying brokers for their services than not otherwise the industry would not be as large and powerful as it is today. NAR.

Elemental100 I'm sorry that your broker took advantage and got a double fee from both you and the landlord, if in fact, he did get paid by the landlord. Most landlords will not pay the broker if they are aware that the tenant paid. What that broker did was unethical but not illegal because fee prices cannot be "FIXED".

We are not all bad and most of us do act as professionals, distinguished as such by the State of New York. We have to study and know NY State RE law and practices, we are tested and licensed, and we are required to take addition continuing ed courses every 2 years to maintain our licenses. When we are involved in a transaction we have to know of what the landlord is supposed to know, what the builder is supposed to know, what the lawyer is supposed to know, what the consumer is supposed to know and it’s our legal obligation to make sure that that transaction is compliant with current laws and proper RE practices. There is so much more to it that meets the eye. We are indeed professionals, and licensed by the state. Unfortunately some do not live up to the title.

Our time and expertise has a value. If you don't want to pay the going rate, think you can do it better on your own, then you have every right to DO YOU, but PLEASE, PLEASE stop bad mouthing Real Estate professionals because it’s the same few bad apples that are getting written about over and over here on these message boards and it is painting a very slanted and distorted picture of the industry. There is enough HATERATION going on in this nation.

Gabrielle Everett
Prudential Douglas Elliman Real Estate

Great post Gabrielle! I agree 100% is sad how people on this site bash agents.

Reading these posts gave me a real understanding of a market which I have not participated in many years. Cogent, comprehensive and very little 'biting' 'winfing and whining'

Kudos to all of you - and thank you!

we were told 15%, offered one months rent and they accepted. i still feel like i'm taking it up the you know what though. it's a scam, especially for the larger, more expensive apartments. you go to an open house, they process your application. done and done. that's a whole lotta money for very little work. robbery. whatever, i'm bitter.

do some research and find a no-fee rental instead.

gcondo - i have. there aren't a lot of options for larger apartments, but thanks for the tip.

uwsmom, do you know how many open houses and appointments are sometimes required to get a serious applicant for an exclusive? Not to mention having to deal with the unscrupulous agents everyone hates so much, the people who come alone and are unqualified; the agents who bring unqualified leads.

Gabrielle - my idea of a tremendous amount of time might be something like 30 hours, spent looking for an apartment for $4k per month. No hypotheticals required. At 15% fee, that works out to $240 an hour I would have paid a broker (assuming they would have worked the same 30 hours). So yes, it was worth my time to save the $7200.

Brokers do not possess skills worthy of $240 an hour. Due to very specific market environments in New York City, for a long time brokers have been able to engage in rent-seeking behavior. With freer information flow now available, this is steadily being chipped away.

@clearance: all the landlords that i have exclusives with would beg to differ.

And I apologize about the apparent contradiction between "tremendous amount of time" and "a few hours" - it feels like a tremendous amount of time while I'm going through the process (call it 1.5 hours per day on average for 30 days), but in reality 30 hours is not much time to save (in this case) $7200. I was obviously not clear about this in my initial post.

To respond to just a couple other points you made:

- Disclosure agreement and/or Fee agreements - Read the posts I and FrontPorch wrote earlier, there is more tied up in these agreements than simply a disclosure of the broker's obligations (or the broker adds riders, or additional docs). The purpose of many of these office sit-downs, in my experience, has been to get the client to sign documents that give up far too many rights and imposes very few (if any) requirements on the broker. To repeat my earlier points, you as a broker my take 30 minutes to show me one building, refuse to negotiate on a fee, leaving me unable to rent from that building even if I find another broker able to rent it to me with a much lower fee thanks to these documents.

- I understand what you get paid for, I am simply claiming that due to structural inefficiencies in the market, which brokers have historically been able to leverage very effectively, the payment is at a level that far outstrips added societal/economic value (the definition of rent-seeking behavior).

- Your point regarding common courtesy and why people use brokers - I 100% agree with you. Brokers clearly serve a very real and important function, and courtesy and respect on both the part of the client and the broker is of the utmost importance. I really do ask that you re-read my earlier posts, I mention this explicitly.

- For every bad broker, there are 3 good ones - Frankly if that's true, then the industry is worse than I thought. If 25% of all practitioners in a given industry are sleazy, there are some serious problems. Realistically, I couldn't begin to put a number on the percentage of bad brokers. All I can say is that through long-term observation, and the witnessing of other folks' long-term observations, there are simply too many (define that as you will) bad brokers out there, and again this isn't helped by the structural problems with the market (the documents, etc.) which leaves a bad tasted in peoples' mouths.

- Requesting people to stop "bad-mouthing" brokers seems like a counter-productive strategy. You, as a respectable broker, should want the same thing I want - the poor practitioners to be outed and removed from the industry. There are too many of them out there giving all brokers a bad name. Publicly complaining about them and describing the specific issues is one way to invoke change.

Quick edit - that should have read 1.5 hrs per day for 20 days in my first paragraph.

what you dont realize clearance is that as a renter you are the least important part of the equation. the real business is between us and the owners.

Good thread :)

One point: I believe the reason the industry has a bad rep (whether 25% of it is sleazy is debatable) is due to the pay structure. Look at any industry that's 100% commission based and ... voila, this is what you get.

Secondly, not everyone pays for what they get and affiliation is challenging. Here's what I mean:

- for renters, who are our clients? landlords or renters? debatable. does our allegiance sit with our pay? if so, does this mean our client is the landlord in the case of no-fee rentals and renters otherwise?

- for buyers, is our client actually the seller since he pays us? if not, why not make the system clean and clear and have people pay us 1) for our time and 2) for our services. in other words, have buyers pay us. let's say via a retainer to eliminate all perceived conflicts of interest? a flat fee. why not have our compensation tied to performance?

- why is it that sellers and landlords need to sign an exclusive agreement (for the most part) while tenants and buyers can switch at the last minute after many hours, weeks or months spent with them? what effect does THAT have on the integrity of the system?

I have my own views on these questions but am pointing to these issues because it's certainly not clear cut

In the rental market, if you hire a broker to help you find exactly what you want paying 12-15% can be reasonable. However, if you are a renter and doing all the legwork, checking out vacancies in rental buildings yourself, only calling brokers that have exclusives on apartments etc then paying 8%/1 months rent is the max that seems reasonable.

Anonnyc, see my response to uwsmom. It's easy to sit there and give an objective number when you don't see the amount of work that goes into what someone else does to make a living.