Kitchen Counters

Your best bet is Formica.

I dont think Formica is a good idea in terms of resale for us.

Formica has been perfectly fine for resale for close to 80 years. Why are you so special?

What's this thing about resale? I thought the whole point of buying is so that you can remodel and paint it they way you like it.

Exactly.

And what REL1 said she (or he) wanted was not having to seal the counters and as stain-proof as possible.

That pretty much just leaves Formica.

NycMatt,

You have said many times that a person should use Formica, do you think it is aesthetically nicer then a solid surface?

Rel1, I usually stall Caesarstome for most of my clients. I find that the designers and architects also go with that.

We used a Caeserstone type product from QuartzMaster that IMO looks far nicer than any other man-made stone we've seen. It's durable and has a nice classic feel. I believe it's called Misty Carrera (not to be confused with similarly-named products from other manufacturers). If you email me I'd be happy to send you photos--bramstar @ gmail . com

Misty Carrera is its porn film name.

This is a good example of how taste differs. I personally find the look and feel of Formica disgusting. It is an "inauthentic" material--particularly the types that are essentially plasticized photographs of real stone. It says anything but luxe or high end. The "solid surfacing" Formica comes closest to an original finish that does more than mimic others, but it isn't a look for everyone. For me, "luxury at affordable prices" is not a come-on I respond to. It may be affordable, but it ain't luxury. It also does not have the wear properties of better materials.

Caesarstone comes in fairly solid colors and more flecked versions and some more limestone looking versions (like Misty Carrera; we have "Pebble") that are fairly unique looking. As a product, it is nearly impervious to stains (red wine left overnight, balsamic vinegar, etc), resists high heat very well, is nonreactive to acids (like lemon juice) is more chip-resistant than stone, never needs sealing. It blends well with traditional pre-war look, more contemporary looks, and ultra modern looks. I have never heard anyone describe substantive differences in performance between Caesarstone, Silestone, or other major brands quartz composites, so I do not necessarily endorse one over the other. I can only say our experience with Caesarstone has revealed it to be a 5-star product imo. It also comes in quite sizable slabs, so it is often possible to avoid having any seams.

And adding to what Kyle has said, the quartz products are uniformly patterned, so you don't need to worry about pattern templating your particular slab.

"It also does not have the wear properties of better materials."

Of course it does.

Formica can last upwards of 40 years, and the only "maintenance" it requires is wiping up spills! No sealing or waxing required. Ever.

Matt, do you sell that nasty stuff or what? Formica does NOT have good wear properties. Seams can separate. Leaks can cause substrate cores to warp and laminates to peel. Scrubbing has to be done with great care so as not to wear away thin plastic film atop the laminate so stains can be very hard to move and may have to just be lived with. Formica scorches at much lower temperatures and in shorter time than stone or quartz and scorch marks from hot pots etc cannot be repaired. Formica chips, particularly at the edges and seams, and cannot be repaired in most cases.

Buyers do not like Formica. It has a bad image problem. It shouts low-end, budget, "affordable;" it doesn't make a buyer feel good or say "oooo!" like stone or wood or composites or stainless or cement or anything else.

Some people will surely find Formica acceptable--they may even get excited about it. But then again, there are some people who get all excited when Jos. A. Banks puts its $250 suits on sale for 50% off and throws in a free second pair of pants.

Wait...so you are saying that the Formica counter comes with a free suit?? Interesting. Nah, I am still out.

"Formica does NOT have good wear properties."

Only if you're extremely careless.

***

"Seams can separate. Leaks can cause substrate cores to warp and laminates to peel."

You need to wipe up spills and address leaks. Duh.

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"Scrubbing has to be done with great care so as not to wear away thin plastic film atop the laminate so stains can be very hard to move and may have to just be lived with."

Um, it's called wiping up spills promptly. Counting four generations of family kitchens in my family, we have a combined 400 years or so in Formica longevity. No one has ever had to *scrub* their countertops, probably because they had the common sense to wipe spills immediately. Honestly, how do people not know this?

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"Formica scorches at much lower temperatures and in shorter time than stone or quartz and scorch marks from hot pots etc cannot be repaired."

Again, in the 400+ years worth of HEAVY use (in my family the women COOK, and I'm not talking about one weekend dinner a week with the other six days involving nuking Lean Cuisine and/or unpacking Boston Market), no one has ever had the need to set a hot pot directly onto the countertop. My grandmother alone -- cooking regularly (and heavily) since 1938 -- not a single scorch. It's like people have never heard of trivets. Go figure.

***

"Formica chips, particularly at the edges and seams, and cannot be repaired in most cases."

I have yet to see a single Formica "chip" in any household in my family. Again, perhaps it's all about how people were raised to care for things properly.

***

"Buyers do not like Formica. It has a bad image problem. It shouts low-end, budget, "affordable;" it doesn't make a buyer feel good or say "oooo!" like stone or wood or composites or stainless or cement or anything else."

Buyers are not going to like what you put in anyway. Deal.

I just had a caeserstone countertop intalled in my kitchen and LOVE it! the look, easy to maintain, durable

> Buyers are not going to like what you put in anyway. Deal.

Exactly, unless you sell within a few years and happen to have chosen an acceptable-to-everyone look.

That look, in this context, is granite or Caesarstone or something like that. If you don't care about high maintenance, then big chunky slabs of white marble with white-painted cabinets. It's just a question of how much you're willing to spend -- thought of as per-month -- to get the look you think is appropriate.

I don't give a shit myself, so don't mind my variety of surfaces and 20- to 40-year-old appliances.

In my family everybody (not just the women) cooks, and yaps endlessly about food, but I've never heard anyone discuss the minutia of countertops or treat a kitchen as a showplace. Now they do quartz, since it's available and makes sense, while before they did Formica, and before that linoleum with metal edges.

What Matt's or my family did or do has no relevance at all, of course. The OP just doesn't want an old-looking or weird kitchen.

On the contrary. Marble is EXTREMELY high-maintenance.

I think Caesarstone, especially the kind with the flecks in it, looks like solid vomit. I really do not understand the appeal. I would rather have a completely plain solid surface, without all of the pebbles and effects, or real granite. Even Corian would be preferable. Another pet peeve is the ogee profile around the edges. Keep it simple and squared, people!

Matt, yes, but judging by pictures of new kitchens, people don't care. Or don't actually use all those yards of countertop enough for it to matter.

NWT you have a point.

I think the most-utilized appliance in New York kitchens is the TELEPHONE -- to order in.

heji I'm with you.

On anything but a solid surface it's impossible to tell if you've spilled something ... if you've left behind crumbs ... or even if there's an insect on the countertop.

This boils down to taste-level differences. No one is convincing anyone else, so the info is out there and the OP or others can do what they want.

As for wiping up spills immediately, obviously that is what most grown ups do. But kitchens are used by children who spill juice, party guests who inadvertantly leave drips of red wine that make rings under glasses placed on the counter, cooks and salad makers who don't see that the balsamic splattered or that the bitters splashed when shaking the cocktail, or that a piece of cubed beet fell out behind the pan onto the countertop where it sat for an hour or so. Despite the best of intentions, things that stain do end up on a counter. And accidents happen, hapless helpers make mistakes... Also, if you want an undermount sink for its convenience of brushing counter debris into it and appearance, forget about laminated surfaces--they won't work.

"But kitchens are used by children who spill juice, party guests who inadvertantly leave drips of red wine that make rings under glasses placed on the counter, cooks and salad makers who don't see that the balsamic splattered or that the bitters splashed when shaking the cocktail, or that a piece of cubed beet fell out behind the pan onto the countertop where it sat for an hour or so."

How silly of me.

Four generations of my family and never ONCE was a child, party guest, or "cook" in any of our kitchens. That explains why our Formica is all so pristine.

O.K. Matt, your family were the neighborhood neatniks.

And kylewest is still the best copywriter on se.

You are seriously bragging about your family's pristine Formica? Do you hear yourself?

kyle: we know that Matt is a member of The Village Green Preservation Society.
If it's still working- no need to replace it. No waste.
I'm kinda like that too.
But I'm never in the kitchen doing anything more than getting some (pre-made, store-bought iced tea or lemonade out of the fridge.

> It is an "inauthentic" material--particularly the types that are essentially plasticized photographs of real stone.
KW sums it up right there. And would like to add, the visual seams at the edges always make formica look cheap, regardless of material, color,etc.

Formica just screams to me 1975, with a pitcher of Tang on it and daisy pattern drinking glasses. Maybe some beads for the kitchen doorway.

I tend to find the "green movement" a bit obnoxious at times but formica just screams inorganic to me.

remembers back in the 80's when people loved formica so much that it made it into the living room/dinning room/bed...
Just 'round' the corner!
anyone?

Primer: Please note that when you reno the kitchen of my next apt., I want the same ceaserstone that kyle has.
I don't even need to see it first, just order it and install it.

But I'm gonna call mine "Pebbles".

I'm slightly curious (only slightly) to hear what appliances go with Matt's 40 year old Formica....avocado or harvest gold?

Back in the 1930s Formica was the miracle labor-saving material. The Queen Mary had bathrooms panelled with it, tabletops in the staterooms, etc.

broadbent: He will let you take a look, only if you're wearing a poly leisure suit.

nycmatt doesnt believe in electronic banking or google either.

if primer could charge mercedes prices for Formica, he would be installing that. Dont worry, the pendulum will fall back to Formica in 20 or 30 years.

formica platforms surrounding waterbeds in the 1970's.

Matt, one of my grandmothers was the pristine type, but it was looked upon as more of an amusing personality quirk rather than a virtue, plain clean being good enough for everybody else. I'm pretty sure nobody stood over her grave saying "She certainly kept a spotless kitchen."

It's sort of sweet, though, how you've made those generations of women a model of behavior for everyone.

@nycmatt "Formica can last upwards of 40 years"

Do any of your family members drive a pristine Edsel or perhaps a well preserved Corvair?

I know near nothing about countertops and through decriptions of various surfaces, I believe I have soapstone. It has a softness about it that terrified me early (as it's white too) and was paranoid about the wear and tear. However, accidental placement of boiling hot pans causes no marks as red wine spills, etc. And anything with a little staying power has been fairly easily removed with gentle ajax powder scrubbing.
There are scratches, though they predate my purchase so I have no idea what abuse is required to give her scars.

truthskr: Is her name Misty or Pebbles?

Well she's white, flat, and soft. Charmin(e)?

truthskr: LOL!

truthskr - not that it matters, but I don't think it's soapstone, as soapstone has a gray/black cast. Might just be a honed marble.

ph41! You are the se MVP of Superbowl weekend.

w67th is probably still crying.

PH41
It is a solid white that defies the description of soapstone yes. I just havent read any other description that fits it otherwise. It has a look that you feel you could dent it with your finger,or has a touch of give, like petrified hardened play doh.

You know what would go great with that formica? Wall paneling. So "lovely", and it lasts for years and years (whether you want it to or not). All we need to do is throw in some popcorn ceilings and we're in business.

Don't forget the green shag carpeting, Lucy.

^ LOL, gotta save more pennies for *that* reno....

i don't understand how anyone can think that caesarstone looks terrible? It comes in various colors and patterns, and doesn't look any different from many other surfaces. I've had formica & granite before, and so far Caeserstone's been the best for a number of reasons.

Truth,

I just installed Pebbles for a client on west 72nd, looks great.

Almost all the photos on my website, both in the portfolio and blog are Caesarstone.

If any look ugly please let me know.

www.primerenovationsnyc.com

It's all beautiful, Primer.

gcondo: Primer earns the big bucks for the QUALITY of his workmanship.
He passes the savings he gets for materials/surfaces on to his clients.

If somebody wants formica, he will find it (somewhere) and the reno will be priced accordingly.
He and his staff can do miracles with inexpensive materials.
And that isn't easy.

Has he managed to renovate you?

truthskr10 & ph41: Some soapstones when unoiled can actually be very close to white. Take a look at the first two photos here.
http://www.greensvillesoapstone.com/products-countertops.php

Soapstone, especially the unoiled variety, will stain, etch and scratch. I wouldn't use it.

"I'm slightly curious (only slightly) to hear what appliances go with Matt's 40 year old Formica....avocado or harvest gold?"

I prefer burnt copper.

Back to REL1 - have you seen what looks good in pictures with cabs similar to yours? I would go with it. As for wearability, so much depends on how you use and how often you use your kitchen.

Prime: I'm sending you an email re: surface sealing. It's time.

nyc10023 - re: sealing. You might want to check out a product called Impregnator 511. It is what was used on my granite counters after installation, and I have used it myself to re-seal.(comes in a large (1 gallon) size in marble/tile/etc. stores. Says it can be used on floors as well (makes them less slippery)

Very easy (though I probably use way more than necessary). Pour it on, and wipe it around. I then let it dry to a haze. (rather than wiping it off right away). I repeat this a couple of times, and the last time wipe it off as per the instructions (so it comes back to the original finish). The only thing to watch out for is if you have existing stains, as sealing over them sort of seals them in.

Actually just checked where to buy more, as I am running out of the product - seems Home Depot carries it.

ph: I have a huge container of 511. Entertained thoughts of doing it myself (got it at HD). Too lazy, and also I had thoughts of buffing the surface before.

Anybody have any experience with glass composite? I think a brand like glassos. Also what is the cost compared to quartz composite? thanks

Is there any one who has done [url=http://washingtonianhomesva.com/]Ceramic Tiles Fairfax VA[/url] in there kitchen?I have to remodel my home,can anyone give me idea?

I have to agree with NYCMatt about the durability of Formica. My new apartment has a kitchen not touched since 1952 (except for new appliances in 1991). The Formica countertops on the metal cabinets are in perfect condition although they're as ugly as ... Maybe Formica from the 1950s was made better than the newer versions. Can't wait to do the kitchen remodel.

Has anyone use a product called Paperstone for their counter tops? Wondering how it wears over time.

Paperstone scratches and stains easily. Even the condensation from a glass of water on a warm day will leave an indelible ring if you don't use a coaster. They discolor quickly in direct sunlight. And they need regular oiling.

I don't understand why anyone would use such a high-maintenance and delicate surface for kitchen countertops.

Look at the perfect 50-year-old Formica at https://s3.amazonaws.com/img.streeteasy.com/nyc/image/62/69125062.jpg. It goes with the original cook-top, wall oven, and metal cabinets. They did replace the handles, dishwasher, and refrigerator, spoiling the look.

Ugh. I hate those handles! So cheap-looking.

I've heard about Paperstone and read about the same problems on several sites that NYCMatt mentions.

I have a 62 year old set of metal kitchen cabinets with Formica countertops and the original handles. The previous owner replaced the sink cabinet to fit in a dishwasher about 15 years ago, totally Formica cabinet. The sink is totally shot, but the 62 year old Formica is in mint condition. I have someone who is taking the old metal cabinets to use in their paint store when I do my kitchen renovation.

we used Silestone and we love it!

We've ordered Silestone for our kitchen renovation.

Good luck jelj13. I'm sure it'll look great. Silestone to me really sounds like the best of all possible worlds: as high end as you can get without the high maintenance.

I must admit I'm a bit torn myself. I'm soon to be embarking on a kitchen reno, and I'm going for a 1922-meets-1965 look: white and pale yellow checkerboard linoleum (REAL linoleum) floors ... white cabinets ... floor to (nearly) ceiling white subway tile with dark grout ... harvest gold or avocado vintage stove and fridge ... concealed Asko washer and dryer units ... solid copper oversized sink ... and pale yellow countertops.

I'm just stuck now on the material for the countertops. I want a solid, uniform color. I don't like specks, flecks, patterns, or textures of any kind.