20 pine

All sorts of problems at 20 Pine - try searching for old threads on streeteasy.

http://downtowny.blogspot.com/2009/04/20-pine-street-1006.html

For whatever reason, 20 Pine attracted a lot of speculative money, so all those units you see for rent are a direct result of people who bought for investment purposes (notice how most of the rental listings are for 1BR's and studios) since flipping for a profit is now an impossibility.

Flippers? I thought Bloomberg said that Manhattan didn't have any speculative RE buyers during the boom.

Any new information on what's happening with 20 Pine? I've read as much as I can find (including the link above) and know there are many concerns about the the high percentage of investor-owned units in the bldg.

I just visited an OH, saw a couple of units (1 bedrooms and studios with 1 and 2 home offices) and toured the common areas (pool, gym, sauna, etc) that are under construction.

Here's what I saw and what I was told:

- the units I saw were all beautiful albeit with kitchens that are not fully practical for cooking
- I was told that the building is 80% sold; and it's clear there ARE a ton of rentals with a high percentage of investor-owned
- the common areas are really beautiful with cream limestone abundant throughout
- they said they are definitely dealing now below ask, but when pressed not much detail given
- common charges are figured to be about 90 cents/sf

Any updated information about the state of the bldg and/or developer (or pointed in the direction) is appreciated. No snarkey, snotty, bitchy commentary please - work out your insecurities elsewhere.

Thanks,

Any updated information

Jim, they have been offering 25% discounts from SE list prices. This is confirmed by ACRIS. Look at some of the earlier blogs on 20 Pine, I had posted some of this information. And I don't believe it is 80% sold. They tend to count as "sold" units for contracts that have been signed and the buyers walked away from the deposits.

Sources tell me that a substantial number of owners there may be defaulting on their CCs (and probably mortgages). This, combined with the extremely slow sale, may translate into the developer not having enough cash flow to complete the amenities--and/or the CCs getting "restructured."

Jim, I too have looked at many bldgs. in the area. 20 Pine is nice, yes, but I don't really think it stands out... Have you explored elsewhere, now that the prices have become friendlier? I would personally have a problem w/ the fact that most of your neighbors would be young kids who are renters, if I were to invest in such a risky development.

Thanks Maraman and duvravcic -

On the points Maraman makes, I agree and don't believe most of what's said by the sales staff. I've heard that ~ 25% discounts are common but can't calculate what the delta is between ask and contract given that the previous unit details (sq ft, etc) aren't available on SE and the lag in timing between contract and close. How did you come up with your numbers?

duvravcic - The high percentage of renters gives me pause and balances out some of the advantages (really good light in some of the units, solid old-school wall and floor construction). From what I saw today the common areas are fully active construction zones with commitments to finish by May/June. I've looked at many other buildings in the area and am concerned that many of the newer developments have similar risks/drawbacks. Any suggestions or favorites you've seen in your travels?

I'm not compelled to buy. Rather I'm keeping my eyes open for a unit/bldg that have what I want and are worth whatever risk I take on.

Thanks,

If you look at SE (if you are an Insider) you can find the sale price of of other units that have previously sold in the line. If you go to ACRIS, you can look at the documents filed. Toward the end is a disclosure of the date the contract was signed. If it was signed recently, you will note that the prices have been heavily discounted.
Hope that helps

Make sure you carefully consider your views in the building. I also recommend visiting at night to see what light is in your unit - there are floors in the Chase building that remain lit, and as bad as a view is looking directly at chase (really close on some of the north views toward the east side) if you now have to deal with light at night, and workers arriving at 8am and able to see in when you open your shades ... hmm.

Maraman, thanks. I'll see if I can draw enough enough date from the recently closed deals to calc the deltas.

gleeclub - The units I toured look out onto either the Plaza or Federal Hall. But your point is a good one and I should go back to see the units at different times of the day/evening.

As I watch what's happening with 45 John, William Beaver, The District and others I'm approaching the idea of buying with extreme caution.

Some point about 20 pine, not good, not bad.....
The washer/dryer is one of those small combined one that takes forever
refridg/freezer small, no ice machine, no waste king in sink and no microwave. very, very little counter and storage space in the kitchen. it's what i would call a murphy kitchen.
the apt can be very, very dark... even with the open view of the plaza so think about how you layout your furniture and also this is the "light" time of year. It can be depressing in winter.
If you are thinking about closing off the home study and shower door that is about another 7k.
having said that, nice building, nice staff and some good buys there now. When i looked in Jan they were discounting 20%, i would guess higher now or try a resale.
Hope this helps and good luck!

You're completely ontarget RE2009 about your observations. And I didn't know about the lack of a disposal in the sink (that's an issue for me). Helpful to hear an estimate of enclosing the HO/study.

Thanks!

Happy to help... sometimes a second pair of eyes is good!!
Can you tell me what you know about WBH- know someone thinking about it

Make sure you have a qualified professional go over the building's financials before you buy. I'm not totally sure about condos but I live in a very secure co-op with a very conservative board that has positioned the building in the best possible way through this economic environment (note: I'm not on the board). I personally know several people who have gotten screwed by buying into buildings with very weak financials and they found their maintenance/cc's spike up shortly after they closed.

A friend checked out an apartment for rent... and the broker was the owner.

Not a good sign for the market acumen of brokers...

RE2009 - I haven't seen the BeaverHausen (spoofing Will and Grace) in a few months. But I recall it being similar to Pine in that its stylish kitchens are easy on the eyes but short on functionality. The price per sq ft is higher and the space tighter than at Pine. I can see the recent closings are about 15% discounts. And the rumor (like at Pine) is that construction on the common areas is halted.

iMom and nyc10022 - Lots of rental units at Pine makes me nervous. And I am extremely suspect of the financial conditions for all of the new developments with high risk of defaulters, walk-aways on deposits, etc.

After I toured with the sales people at Pine I was approached by the doorman asking if I wanted to see a sale-by-owner. It's a 1-bedroom listed here on SE now with a 905k asking price. Although the owners words suggested he's not desperate, his behavior read otherwise.

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/376983-condo-20-pine-street-financial-district-new-york

jim: $1,148 psf????? They must be smokin'. When someone is that out of touch with reality, you simply can't take them seriously.

jim, if you can get past the items discussed there are MUCH better deals in the building... There was one sale in jan for something like 700 psf

Smoking something for sure. I have a flier that shows it's dropped to $1095 psf, still no bargain. The ask now is for less than he purchased it for.

RE2009, I do like some things that I saw. But I'm more inclined to be cautious in this environment and will keep my eyes open for better deals with downside risk better reflected in the ppsf.

Good luck jim123, while 20 pine was not for me it does have some lovely features and the staff is great. The killer for me was the darkness so the best advise is whatever you consider spend some time in it and go back at different times during the day/eve (and imagine it in winter!!).
Enjoy the search and let us know how it goes!!

Talk about smoking something - take a look at this:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/387373-condo-20-pine-st-financial-district-new-york

raised his price 30% one day ago to almost $1,300 psf!

Is it any coincidence he raised it 420,000 on 4/20? Maybe he is really smoking something? :)

Good article in NYO about the current status and where they are. Unless you are a long term investor willing to ride this out for awhile, you should stay away.

nyo ?

Sorry, didn't realize there were rookies on board.
http://www.observer.com/2009/real-estate/20-pine-conniption

that's rrrriiiggghhhht
thanks

I've always had a suspicious feeling that something fishy was going on at 20 Pine. Maybe it hasn't turned out as bad as Tribeca Space or 45 John or the place on Rector but I still nonetheless get the vibe that the sponsors/brokers are playing games that I wouldn't want to be a part of. There are simply too many instances of buyers reportedly being misled/lied-to/cheated for it all to be a coincidence. If you are absolutely compelled to buy, I would definitely consider one of the resales over the sponsor units. First of all, you don't pay transfer taxes on resales and you would probably get a much better deal.

Great article streetview. And my spider sense is tingling too, iMom.

i agree with iMom on the resale. MUCH MUCH better deal especially when you factor in the transfer taxes. I'm not sure what occured at 45 John as i have seen it mentioned here a few times... but does not sound good. Sorry to hear that, i looked at it last may and thought for the money it was a good value, nice finishes ect. It's too bad it went astray

Great article.

Man, that building is screwed...

I have been looking at 20 pine. First time i went, they told me it was 80% sold; a week later, I told them about the Barron's article and asked how much was sold, the answer was 50%. So don't believe anything they tell you.

Like brokers lying is a new thing...

I think you have to go in with an investor's attitude rather than as a homeowner buyer, even if you want to live there. Figure out the cash flows and add in all the "what ifs" like assessments for legal and covering all association dues. Some group will be successful with a bulk purchase so that may improve cash flow to the association. It will find a bottom.

Even though I would be looking at this purchase as a homeowner I also have to look at the financial health of the building/developer and other risks. Foolishness to do anything other than...

iMom, I didn't realize that transfer taxes are a difference between a sponsor versus owner resale. Are there other technical/cost differences (aside from desperation on the part of a current owner) that would favor a resale over a sponsor sale?

Jim, get a list of closing costs from the sponsor111 ASAP!!! I almost passed out when i saw them !!!!

I'll do that RE2009. Are the sponsor-sold closing costs a standard list or is there a great deal of variation by developer/building/etc?

I am also looking at 20 Pine for a unit as an investment, I mean primary residence. Closing costs seem to be the same no matter where you buy its just a matter of negotiating them. Atty fees, 1.825% state and city tax and 1% mansion tax. What else could they be charging.
the insider on street easy and acrus show that the building is 74% closed and 8% more under contract, that 82%.
additionally my attorney couldn't find any pending law suits except for waht is at the AG's office for the 8% thats under contract. John Ball from Chase is doing my loan and said that the building has a great reputation with them and that financing will not be an issue.

Try not to let these haters get you down. I hear that most of the posters here are angry brokers jealous of the properties success. If you don't use one of them maybe you can negotiate an additional 3% off of the sales price.
Good luck

Here's a helpful, albeit generic, list of closing costs:

http://www.ny-condos.com/new-york-city-condo-closing-costs.html

Jim: Regarding transfer taxes (both City and State), the buyer pays this only if the unit is purchased directly from the developer. If you buy from a reseller, then the seller pays. Therefore, if you are the original buyer, you pay transfer taxes when buying and then pay them again when selling. Double taxation for original buyers.

Dogma -
Maybe you should get a new attorney:

http://cityfile.com/dailyfile/4501

He should know how to find if a lawsuit has been filed.

Maraman -
I am aware of the few clients with complaints at the AG's office thats the same as every new building. a lot of people signed contracts 2 years ago and cannot close amd are all doing whatever they can to get out of them. The fact is that its over 70% CLOSED, a nice building and they are willing to make a deal.

imom - All terms are up for discussion. I was able to get my landlord to pay for a parking space. in todays market some developers will split and sometimes pay for all of them.

Good link on closing costs, iMom, thanks.

Dogma, for clarity sake are you saying that your attorney DID find lawsuits associated within the 8% under contract (and that would include the complaint referenced in Maraman's posted link). Given everything you've learned in your research it sounds as though you are ready to or have made an offer - correct?

I honestly can't tell whether Dogma is joking/being sarcastic or being serious.....

"I am also looking at 20 Pine for a unit as an investment, I mean primary residence."
Huh? I am looking at buying a Ferrari, I mean a Honda.

"Closing costs seem to be the same no matter where you buy its just a matter of negotiating them."
Wrong. See my last post above. You should probably do a little more homework before diving in.

"additionally my attorney couldn't find any pending law suits except for waht is at the AG's office for the 8% thats under contract."
My attorney said that Iraq is a great vacation destination except for all the bombing.

"I hear that most of the posters here are angry brokers jealous of the properties success."
I've heard a lot of words associated with 20 Pine. Success has not been one of them.

it is no joke that i've heard several brokers complain about how low financial district(FD) apt prices are. it's no secret that buyers are more attracted to FD than any other areas lately. someone mentioned this earlier that the closing prices are much lower than the posted prices online, and that's true. it can be as low as 2/3 of the posted price. and depending on how well you can make a deal some developers are willing to pay all or split the transfer fee/tax. plus more perks. as for 20 pine, financial stability of the building has gotten better, which is why more people are buying lately. 20 pine's CC is currently low compared to other places; even if CC did go up somewhat, it is not that much higher from other other luxury condos/coops that are in other nice parts of manhattan. for a long term investment (several years) it's more likely than not worth the buy. but i'd caution to those who are planning on buying & reselling it in couple of years.

sure, after you close on 20 Pine, pick up 1 M or 2 of GM stocks too, since you are at it

I'm seeing some units at 20 pine tonight. Can someone please tell me what the heck is going on with the kitchens? Was the developer trying to be cute or is that how we're all suuposed to live in 20 years.

hhl8, which brokerage shill agency do you work for?

nyc 10022, i don't work for any brokerage firm. last time i bought a place in manhattan was about slightly less than a decade ago, and that took me about a year of searching before i settled in murray hill. i am in no rush for another purchase, but i've been looking about a year. i offered in my previous comment what i know. as jim 123 mentioned above, please "no snarkey, snotty commentary please - work out your insecurities elsewhere."

many of the new apts have that type of kitchen. if you are looking at one of the big "loft like" apts there are ways to work around, ie build an island or get a butcher block but the kitchen is certainly not the selling point (other then nice to look at).

I think the idea of the kitchen is that if you're not going to use it anyway, it might as well not take up a lot of room. The main problem with 20 Pine kitchen is the lack of counter space, which is relatively straightforward to address. Some other new places have extremely tight spaces for the stove/range, fridge, etc., which feels much harder to fix.

"i offered in my previous comment what i know."

Which is little... so either you are making things up because you are a broker, or...

"it's no secret that buyers are more attracted to FD than any other areas lately."

well, its a secret because they buyers don't seem to know this.

"which is why more people are buying lately."

Except they're, uh, not. The stats make this pretty clear.

"for a long term investment (several years) it's more likely than not worth the buy."

Seriously, you're saying this because you think its true?

I'd have more respect for you if you were just shilling.

counter space is totally the key problem. also no microwave, ice maker or waste king. also minimal storage space, but some of the apt have tons of closets so you could do a pantry if needed. it is very sleek and elegant to look at and once there is a table there is really feels a lot more like a "kithen"

i saw a few units tonight and i thought the layouts, finishes, and even light (on a rainy day) were great. If you want to have an actual usable kitchen there, you're going to have to build an island - which the sponsor is selling as an add on. the light was great in the 3 units i saw... the broker did show me one unit (not one i was looking at) and it was extremely dark. S to SE facing is fine.

also, they showed me the amenities under contruction in the basement floors - i'd say there's 2 months more work to do there. However, they went out of their way to insist that there's not much more work to be done and it appears progress is being made.

stash, how do the amenities look?

also curious to here about the island, that sounds nice

interesting, they were very defensive about the perception in the marketplace that work on the amenities had ceased and went through great lenghts to show us how far along the pool / billiard room / spa (sorry, "turkish spa") / gym were. i left with the impression that these would indeed be completed in, like i said above, 2 months or so. This is probably cold comfort to buyers who've lived there for a year or so but for a new buyer, it works.

Discounts are now 35%. 1505 just closed at $660 for 1100 sq ft, $600 psf. That is a discount to other units in the line that sold for just over $1mm.

Wow, $600 psf. I can't imagine how places like LIC and WB are still trying to charge $800-1000 psf.

Maraman - where did you get the square footage for 1505? Prices (and sizes) in the "05" line are kind of all over the place on streeteasy (#2405 is 644 sq ft but #1005 is 1100 sq ft).

Thanks!

-DT

http://downtowny.blogspot.com

Incidentally, we visited 20 Pine again over the weekend and saw quite a pick-up in open house visitors(although we think they'll stay on the sideline, but who knows) and quite a bit of "shadow" inventory (e.g. units that fell out of contract that might not be officially listed as for sale by the sponsor).

600-700 psf seems to be the going rate there recently

Downtownster, I looked as some of the other listing in the "05" line closest to that sale. I think I was a couple of floor away and had the same footprint. The higher floors have a different footprint, as you have noted.

This pricing is much more realistic, and it should prove to be attractive to many. That line, like most others in that bldg., must be a narrow, corridor-like studio w/ one or two very small window(s), so smart pricing is going to be crucial. Good luck to them!

Hi all, I have a random ques to those of you who have seen units in 20 Pine. Does anyone know if their open rain shower stall would be better with installation of shower stall enclosures? I am just wondering if that type of shower ever caused anyone a problem in the past. Also, is there anything else that anyone else might've thought inconvenient? Thanks in advance!

i do not know of any problems but people seem to prefer the enclosed glass. other little things are small dishwasher, no microwave, no ice maker, no waste king and the combo w/d.
not being critical.... just some small things

I looked at an open house at 20 pine last week and the amenities are now complete. I don't know if the building has a C of O for them, but the broker took us to see them and they are totally amazing - hands down, the nicest I have seen at any building in the city. I'm not sure if I am willing to bid on a place at 20 pine (mainly b/c I am concerned about large numbers of renters, dark hallways and lack of counter-space) but the awesome amenities coupled with the prices (the broker said, almost without being asked, that units will sell for 25% below asking - to me that says 25% of ask is the worst you can do) makes me think despite the negative press that this place may be a bargain. Yes it had problems in the past, but those seem to be all in the past. I was skeptical when I walked into the open house, but my opinion changed very quickly when I saw great apartments at great prices with great amenities.

I was there yesterday. The amenities are NOT complete or in place, per the comment above. Neither the pool, the gym, or the "Turkish Hammam" are finished or in any way usable. Maybe a month or so. Maybe. I spoke to a tenant that said they have been hearing changing and different stories for months about completed amenities, and many are getting very frustrated. The doormen had the same story. The 25th floor terrace IS finished, and as I commented before in the rental thread, it is small and cramped, and filled with children. The library "amenity" is a strange, empty room with some vaguely designed Armani furniture sitting unused next to the lobby. The 25th floor concierge area was still under construction, tons of foot traffic, and a lot of dust. Not at all clear what was going on with "Quintessentially."

This building is not ready for primetime for at least another six months. But, good deals can be had, I'm sure.

uomoprimo - dude, you must be blind, dumb or really bitter (or some combination thereof). I have no dog in the fight, but the amenities are done - no other way to say it. The furniture is there, there is water in the pool, the rugs are in place, pool tables are there, etc. I also saw the 25th floor terrace (nobody was there - children or adults, but clearly finished, including the lounge chairs and the reflecting pool). As for dust, there wasn't any in any of the common areas - everything was spotless. I understand there isn't a C of O for the common areas on the lower floors, but that doesn't mean they aren't done - it just means they are waiting for the city to approve it. You can say what you want about the place (and 20 pine certainly has a checkered history) and I am sure current residents are frustrated (I would be if I lived there for months without common areas being done) but to say the amenities are not done or in place is just ignorant and wrong.

For everyone's information, the City of New York has finally granted the 421-g tax abatement starting in July 2009. That means there will be no real estate taxes for 10 years and reduced for year 11 and 12. So, other than the mortgage and common charges, this is one less expense to think about. You do not have to be good in math to figure how much savings this is.

I agree w/ downtown1234. Coincidentally, I saw their stream room/Turkish bath at works when I was taking a tour couple days ago. Saw the finished pool with water brim to the top. Billiards are done. Furnitures & flat screens were in, etc. It's almost done. Looks like they are going to finish by end of May for the amenities. About a month ago they were selling some units >30% below asking price (as I mentioned in these posts 3 weeks earlier & people had hard time believing it back then). So if they will sell for 25% below asking as per downtown1234, then the price has gone up a little.

No axe to grind, and I obviously like the place because I'm in contract for an apartment there, but the amenities aren't completed and usable yet except for the terrace, whether you want them to be or not. This is from building management. You were on a tour, and were being told what you wanted to hear so you could be sold. Sorry. Like I said, they may be finished soon (within a month, or three, no straight answer) but they are not usable now. Simple as that.

uomoprimo -- guess you missed the part about no C of O. Are the amenities done? Yes. Can you actually use them yet? No.

See? You can both be right!

guess there is light at the end of the tunnel! any ets on the c of o

I get different answers about when the amenities will be open, and they still aren't, as of this post. That includes gym, spa, and storage space.

Just a comment, since I was close to reaching a deal here, but if the building is going so wonderfully why are they continuing to jimmy the sales stats with the LLC company. I believe that 80% number ownership is highly skewed because of this fact. Also, before proceeding further, watch out with new developments because usually once the developer moves on, maintenance/amenities tend to fall by the wayside. Look at the developer's track record on that. The other thing that turned me off was there's not so much natural light on the floors I was looking into but I guesst thats not a big deal. One of the biggest turnoffs to me was the sales associate's reaction to a question on the kitchen, and he quipped back who cooks anymore? I'm going to wait on buying for now and if I missed the boat, hey no biggie.

tg4nfl - we were also wondering about the LLC company. Is it definitely the sponsor? Elliman is currently marketing PH50 on behalf of this company (which we weren't sure was the sponsor). Why did you decide to not go through with the deal?

http://downtowny.blogspot.com

thinking about renting at 20 pine...i visited the other day and was told that the pool and gym were physically complete, but that they were waiting for some kind of occupancy permit. because of that, they couldn't physically show me the pool, which concerns me. i have no way of knowing if the broker is just lying to me or not. since the building has so many unsold units, and developers tend to build ammenities last...what are the chances that the pool and gym won't really be ready by the end of august? (what i was told this week). half of the reason i'm considering 20 pine over another building for the same price / space is the turkish hamman (love that)...but if it doesn't exist..that will just make me sad

As far as I know, individual owners do not yet have the "key" (I think it's a FOB) to the pool and other amenities, so if you're renting from an owner, their broker can't get you into the amenities because they don't have the key. We just saw a resale there last week and the broker told us "Monday" as the day that the mysterious occupancy permit will arrive.

I understand that the sponsor is the only one that has keys to the pool area. When we saw sponsor-owned apartments, they told us that they "didn't have time" to show the pool. Maybe true, but we've given up seeing those amenities for now :)

http://downtowny.blogspot.com/search/label/20%20Pine

I looked at some sponsor units a few weeks ago and the onsite sales rep showed me the pool and other amenities - I can confirm they are complete (and look very nice). I don't plan to buy at 20 Pine for other reasons, but the amenities do look very nice.

Downtownster, we decided to pull out after we agreed to a deal not as good as 1505 (600 per sq ft)but just about 700 something per sq foot. While waiting for a contract (which supposedly was on its way every day for 3 weeks) mortgage rates went about 100 bp on the conforming loan, eventually we received a call from the RE saying the price was too low and it would only be 50k more than we agreed. Completely annoyed by this approach since we were serious qual buyers who dont waste ppl's time, didnt appreciate the approach. Then I was told that the developer felt sooooo confident that said this building will really sell and we need to act fast. After that clownish RE approach, it pushed us to back to looking. Also, researching new dev's, developers' history after they move on, and the NYT article that was posted on here all were contributing factors.

tg- that s-cks!!!! if you are back to looking i can highly reco the visionaire. i know it's bpc and that is another issue for people but i can tell you living in bpc is unreal in the nice weather and mearly fabulous in the bad.

The Collection Club opens on Wednesday, July 22. Can't wait to use the Golf Simulator and Turkish Hammam. Yay!!

"Downtownster, we decided to pull out after we agreed to a deal not as good as 1505 (600 per sq ft)but just about 700 something per sq foot."

and they're asking $800 psf in fing Long Island City. Amazing.

The Collection Club is open!!! 20 Pine had a broker preview of the collection club last night. It was pretty amazing to see how well they delivered. I did try the golf simulator, and it was pretty cool. Well Done!

Im sure all the little kids will love playing in there

Photos of the new amenities: http://newyorknycondo.com/New_York_Apartments/Pictures_%26_Floor_Plans/Pages/20_Pine.html#grid

What happened to the 1005 sq. ft. studio priced at $749K? I was waiting for the price to go down to $699K. Why did they withdraw it from the market? Please ... Please... post it again.

Mabus, with the amenities finally complete (to the most part) and the bldg. going through the "liquidation" process, the situation--actual or anticipated--appears to have improved greatly for the bldg.

Sure, the market at large might still be on its way down, but the bldg. itsef may no longer need to offer deep discounts it used to until recently???

nyc212,,,, I appreciate your input. I am just frustrated that I was hoping for a "bottom fishing" opportunity where I can make a "killing". If the 1005 sq. ft. studio goes down to $699K, I can probably bid a realistic $650K which will set me at $646 per foot. That's was my plan. Now I am kicking myself in the foot for not pulling the trigger earlier. Is there another desperate seller out there?

You are right about the amenities. My jaw dropped when I viewed them last week.

Mabus, don't get me wrong, I think the bldg. is STILL a bargain, even is you believe that NYC real estate would decline furher by 20 or 30%! Just as a point of reference, try 99 John, who is asking $1k pf for a college dorm room w/ the cheapest and tackiest fixtures, directly shipped from a prison from Alabama, I am sure. Try looking at 88 Greenwich. They are asking over $1k for TINY units with NO air rights surrounding the mid-block bldg. And the amenities don't even compare!

All in all, I think 20 Pine is a STILL bargain compared to those two, if you don't mind big but darker apartments.

Oh, by the way, people readin this thread might be interested--they have taken down the awnings and sale signs at 45 John completely. It seems official now... How unfortunate. They missed the ship only by a few months, in my opinion..

Southeast corner units (#s ending w/ 02) in 20pine tend to be less dark compared to other units if anyone's interested.

I am interested in a true 1 bedroom unit at 20 Pine, if anyone should have one available or is looking for a well qualified tenant please contact me at 347-688-5360 teabag1680@yahoo.com (alex)
My price range is 2500-3600
Furnished or Unfurnished is okay
and move in date is extremely flexible.

What days do they hold open house at 20 Pine.

Unit 718 2-bed 1387 sq ft. Listed at almost $1.5 mil sold for $995. What do you guys think of the pricing?

2305 just closed for $500k originally $760k, both sponsor sales.

looks like they're ready to cut 33%.

how many square feet is 2305 ?

AR, they definitely are. Look at nyc_observer's post: they closed for 995K on a unit that has same-line comps from a year ago above 1.5 M. That is a 33% discount in my book.

i don't know, but 2405 is listed as 644. some of the lines seem fairly consistent, others not so much.

tromp, actually it was nyc_observer's post that made me go snoop. i wanted to see if it was a sponsor sale. then i saw 2305.

i saw something similar at platinum today. i don't even recall if i posted it. sponsor selling at significantly off what earlier purchasers paid. i know new construction can be an ugly game, but even i felt sorry for the people who bought (unless they were flippers).

nyc_observer, i'd say there's room for more.

i would say 600 psf is about the right price
i think the apt are fabulous pied a terre's or a great first nyc apt's. nice amenities, nice staff... but something very cold and temp about the apts. maybe just the apts i saw
thoughts?

aboutready you have to be careful with the platinum. SGP properties is the dev. at 11 Times square

Tried to see a few apts there today and was told over the phone they were booked up for the day...