890 West End Avenue, Part 2

then why don't you bid $650K on 9D and do the renovations? This looks like great space. Personally I'd rather be on 9 than on 3 given that the master bedroom faces West End.

Thanks, rear_window. Do you really think 650K is realistic? How much would renovations cost? I'm a complete novice in this area and was hoping to avoid renovating.

suggestion: if you're serious (and you certainly seem like it) and you really like the place, find a contractor/architect to walk through 9D with you and give you some ideas and ballpark prices, i.e. to the closest $50K and then see if you want to proceed.

Thanks, columbiacounty. Will definitely give your idea some thought.

and - I would add - at some point in the process if that confirms that your offer for 3D was reasonable, communicate back to the owner there of what you're doing. I believe that a big part of the current low volume of transactions is sellers who are either being ill-advised, or just unaware. Faced with the prospect of seeing you trade away from them, they may well reconsider at least ebtering into a meaningful dialog with you. Or not, but it never hurts to try

how would you like to be sitting as owner of 3D staring at comp of 9D at $650 K? no matter how many times you try to tell people about the renovation, the numbers will kill you.

You've all made me feel better! I appreciate the validation. Every now and then, I think maybe I'm in the r.e. twilight zone.

I will offer the other side. If it is listed at $1.13 and you offered 30%, that means you offered about $790K or about $585 per sf. I agree the market is down and upper WEA is taking a hit, but I don't think we are near that price yet - that would be almost 50% off peak. I agree they should at least say thanks, but no thanks, but disagree that they owe you a counter offer. Your offer clearly shows you are only interested at buying at a huge discount and if they need/want close to ask, why start the process and let out info regarding their negotiating position. And for what it's worth, 9 and 3 are hard to compare because 3 technically has a 3rd sleeping area which makes it more attractive to familes with more than 1 kid. Good luck though.

Your point is well-taken, starfish. Yes, we do want to buy at a huge discount, but we're also prepared to buy, period. The market may not yet be "almost 50% off peak," but give it time and it likely will be. New York always suffers last, as history tells us. Again, we're extremely patient, and more and more sellers will have to sell as time passes.
Further, "technically" is the correct word to describe the third sleeping area. The space is the former kitchen--now the "maid's room" (for what that's worth)--and the child who sleeps there has to walk through one of the other bedrooms to get to the bathroom. Sub-optimal.

patience...".we want to buy" is the more important point. and your "huge discount" is a discount to an inflated and no longer relevant price. how about "we want to buy at a price point that makes sense to us?"

what i never understand in situations like this is why the seller didn't come back with something---even just a $25 K drop if that's all they felt was reasonable to get the ball rolling.

I don't understand a seller's refusal to engage, either, columbiacounty. She doesn't know how much we're willing to negotiate. Clearly, she's not interested. Her loss. Your description of the price as "inflated and no longer relevant" is apt.

I agree a counter is almost always a good idea, but if I were in their shoes I would certainly expect a counter of $1.1M+ to be useless to the person offering $790K. They still should have been smart and told their broker to say "thanks very much, but we are probably too far off to make any real progress toward a sale, so we think a counter will not be make much sense." Nobody has a crystal ball, so they are entitled to think prices are not going down much more and potential buyers are entitled to think they should get an apartment now for what it will be worth someday when prices bottom out.

perhaps useless but certainly not time consuming. as i said, i don't get it....other than they think they're going to get $1.1 million from the hundreds of other buyers knocking on their door.

rlmnyc,
what do you really think you will pay for this property? Are there reasonable comps to justify your expectations? Are you just in dire search for that seller that's in a lyrch. I feel your pain but, ask yourself given even the slow movment in transactions what kind of price per square footage are they comanding? If I have priced a property in the 'reasonable ball park' I would not consider negotiating with a low baller unless there were other mitagating factors. I feel your pain. I myself am a frustrated shopper waiting desperatly for all sellers to give up hope. That apartment might only be available in fantacy land. Real estate is a glacier. Move! damit, Move!!!

falcogold1,

Love the glacier metaphor! To my thinking, reasonable comps no longer apply in this market, as NYC real estate is now on a slow roll into a ditch. What my neighbor closed for three months ago isn't indicative of what I'll close for today. While it's impossible to avoid having emotion come into play, I'm trying to approach buying an apartment as dispassionately as possible. As we've all heard many times, an apartment is worth only what the buyer is willing and able to pay, no more. So 3D may be worth 1.13M to one buyer, but certainly not to me.

rlmnyc - I haven't done this excercise for the type of apartment being discussed here but if u go to miller samuel website you can get to data going back to 1984 (I think) for this type of digs. once u have that as a benchmark, u can say to yourself "I think prices are back to _____ levels" and then use that as a comparison to see if your offer is reasonable - just a thot -

if i were buying in this market, i would be thinking more about what number made me comfortable and stick with that range until i got there. or didn't. with the general uncertainty, i don't think comps are particularly meaningful; its your money and your comfort level.

that of course is a big part of why this market in general is stalled but its obviously not your responsibility to fix the market --- your responsibility is to yourself and your family

Thanks, liquidpaper. I'll definitely have a look.

True, columbiacounty. You and I are on the same page.

rlmnyc - i see where you are coming from, but to call the seller delusional is unfair - there is obviously a difference in opinion, and the fact they they did not come back with a counter-offer should not be taken personally - time will tell who was wrong or right, but no need to slag the seller

"A delusion is commonly defined as a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception."

seems to fit the bill, i think.

I think the neither the seller, nor rlmnyc have the right number, so it makes no sense to assign blame or make fun of either potential party. I am guessing the price is somewhere in the middle, but only time will tell.

no one is assigning blame or making fun of either. if i persist in holding onto a belief that is empirically unreasonable, i am deluded. i am not right or wrong -- I am deluded. when i asked why someone wouldn't even make a minor counter offer, i was asking because i genuinely don't understand and still don't. i cannot imagine believing in this market that you would get full asking price unless you have dropped your asking far more than these people---particularly with a competitive unit (i know, i know --- not renovated) already priced lower.

there is no way to prove that the seller's belief is delisional - is seeking 1.13 any more delusional than the $650k offer? time will tell

the 650K was for the non renovated unit...OP offered $790 K and presumably was prepared to come up from there. would it be out of line for me to say that you are inaccurate?

you could, but I could care less - all i'm saying is that time will tell - why bother spending time and energy debating something you have abosultely no vested interest in, and from the sounds of it, very little knowledge

This weekend I offered 13% below ORIGINAL ask and got roughly the same response. Mind boggling that the realtor couldn't even bring her client to the table. We were prepared to negotiate, but I believe some people have lost their ability to effectively negotiate in light of their (perceived) losses. They are, in effect, paralyzed by what has happened to the market. Like the captain who refuses a spot in the life raft as the saltwater rises to extinguish the lights in the cabin.

spinnaker1, for the same place at 890 WEA?

This is a lovely apartment, I saw it when it first came on. It is clear that the owners take enormous pride in their home. I guess they cannot divorce the emotion of the home that they love and the business of selling some real property. Good luck rlmnyc

This is a lovely apartment, I saw it when it first came on. It is clear that the owners take enormous pride in their home. I guess they cannot divorce the emotion of the home that they love and the business of selling some real property. Good luck rlmnyc

You really should just give up obsessing over the fact that the sellers will not consider your lowball offer. Prices will go down, but not by 50%, and just getting angry because a seller will not sell for the price you are willing to pay is really not very useful.

It seems like there's been a great deal of discussion since I last checked in. columbiacounty, thanks for defining "delusional." Perhaps some of you experienced my use of that word as pejorative, when, in fact, I meant it merely as descriptive. Obviously, sellers/brokers and buyers are having diametrically opposed reactions to the original posting and responses. My husband and I made the offer less than 48 hours ago; we clearly have a reaction to the seller's unwillingness to respond, but "obsessing" I'm not. I fully intend to head out to another round of open houses next weekend and bid low again if there's something I love. And perhaps an eager seller will negotiate. FYI, 800K was our starting offer, not the final offer. As a final thought, I agree that the owners clearly "take enormous pride in their home." They should;it's lovely. And no, I don't have a crystal ball. It's possible I'm wrong. I'm now merely marveling at the disconnect. Thanks, spinnaker1 and karen23, and good luck to you, too.

This board is primarily occupied by pessimistic bears who think Manhattan real estate is going to drop by 50% from market peaks. I personally think a 30% drop followed by a few years or stagnation is more realistic.

If these sellers don't HAVE to sell, I don't blame them. The offer was a tad extreme on an already discounted property. Can't say the same for the 10% off initial list bid. I think the seller should have accepted that. But, who am I to say.

Regarding the unit upstairs. As a mom with kids, that floor plan is not as appealing. Less closet space, smaller kitchen. Yeah the third floor unit doesn't have a dining room, but moms need a place for a high chair, cooking cookies for preschool, store bottles and sippy cups, etc. Formal dining room, while would be nice, is something you may trade away when your only alternative is an unusably small kitchen. The reno upstairs while may not be more than 100-200K, will likely take AT LEAST a year and cause lots of stress. Plus, any owner will likely have to pay for any reno job with cash. Reno financing is dead.

While the market is set by how much a buyer is willing to pay, it is also set by how much a seller is willing to take. The two must meet somewhere.

Just my 2 cents.

And some on here would cause me "delusional".....while I would beg to differ.

I feel like this is becoming and unbecoming preoccupation on my part, but can you get to a bathroom in this place without going through someone's bedroom? If not, that's a big liability in my book.

a bit off topic but:
UWSer:

"This board is primarily occupied by pessimistic bears who think Manhattan real estate is going to drop by 50% from market peaks. I personally think a 30% drop followed by a few years or stagnation is more realistic."

I think most would interpret me as a bit of a bear, but I have seen 2 apts trade in the last 4 months I would have bought at pretty close to the prices they closed at.

It is a really difficult thing to start the bidding process so far from initial ask. In the OP case do you think owner would have considered 15% off of initial ask? If so, I think 30% if a perfectly reasonable starting point to bid. I on the other hand have simply decided to wait till the owner lowers the ask to a more reasonable number, then I find out the thing traded at 30% or so off of last ask....and I say to myself, WTF! Why didn't I bid.

familyguy: no, you can't get to a bathroom without going through someone's bedroom. I agree it's a big liability.
patient09: we, too, saw an apartment we bid on close only 25K higher than our "lowball" bid. This is what leads me to believe that it's important to bid and be declined, rather than regret not bidding at all. You just never know.

rimnyc: I hear ya, slowly turning that direction

Valid points to tlmnyc and patient. If I were this seller, I probably would have sold to you at 999K. Not sure if you would have taken that.

There are some sellers who are more motivated than others. No doubt. The trick is finding one of those sellers and them having a property you like.

In full disclosure, I WAS a seller on the UWS, but we got a renter to cover our carry costs for a year and thought that was a better choice for us. I would sell for 30% below market peaks, but no less. Not because that is where our cost are, just that is where I believe the market will settle.

Were you very clear about the bid being a starting bid only? Did you say that you expected them to counter?

I agree that you should be bidding your number - a number that makes sense for you - on every home you are seriously interested in. But if the owners think you are simply scraping around for a truly distressed and desperate seller and are unwilling to negotiate, they may not want to dignify your offer with a reply. That's their prerogative, obviously. But I think there may be room for you to go back and say please, we would really like to hear a counter-offer from the seller. Can't hurt, really - as long as you are actually willing to come up a bit.

Tina
(Brooklyn broker)

I can't stress enough how much it sucks to have to go through people's bedrooms to get the bathrooms. I knew people who lived this way (in NYC) and it was a major problem when people came to stay, etc. It's the sort of problem that becomes more and more irritating over time.