LICC, show us the data refuting single digit price to rent multiple in the 1990s

That's a subtle beginning!

Haha. Well the guy claims to have shown data proving me to be full of shit. All I can recall is once he pulled from memory a rental price and a purchase price...both of which were ridiculously off. Meanwhile, I posted a graph that showed price to rents crossed the 1980s high in 2004 and kept rising. My point - even if we have retraced to 2004 prices, we are only back to the start of the bubble period. Unless you think rents are higher today than 2004...which I don't think anyone would argue. However, fools have surprised me time and time again.

Guys, get a life. Your obsession with just arguing with this guy is sad.
You believe (know) you are right, you believe (know) he is wrong, ok, why the need to continue to discuss it?

No surprise you've found it "contradictory"

Again, why are you here? People argue, present data, etc. What is your point?

Apparently they don't present data.

Some do, some don't. That is my point. What is yours? Shoo fly.

I sourced Miller Samuel Reports and New York Times reporting from 1999-2000. Both are much more reputable than Rhino's constant made-up nonsense. Notice how hostile and nasty he gets when he is called on being unintelligent and full of it?

Who cares.
Why is this here?

LICC, just produce the data. You have none. Where are the links? Right off the bat, you are not talking about the trough of the 1990s, you are referencing 1999-2000.

Anyone with half a brain who was around in the 1990s knows that apartments traded under 10x gross rent. The idea that you could deny that it ever happened, shows you are a fool...as if another reason was necessary.

Yes in fact you're right, Rhino. In 1997 I paid $1700 a month for a 1-bedroom on Sheridan Square, 600 square feet, bought a 2-bedroom (800 square feet) on Bleecker Street for $218,000.

And no, LICC did not "reference" NY Times data. He said that he remembered reading it. No source.

I guess 10x in Manhattan is tough to hear when you just paid 20x+ in LICC. The only debate is how high low interest rates can keep us on a ratio basis.

steve, you generally have not sunk as far as the yahoos like Rhino and a couple others, so I'm disappointed to see you try to sink down to his level.

Rhino, like I said, it's tough when facts get in the way of your delusions. From the NY Times, 11/2000:

The average rent for apartments in Manhattan below 96th Street jumped 10.7 percent to nearly $3,000 during the first six months of this year, according to one survey of the market, topping off a six-year period during which rents increased by nearly 46 percent.

At the end of June, the report said, the average rent for apartments of all sizes was $2,984, compared with $2,696 at the end of 1999. In December 1994, the average was $2,046. . . .

the average rent for a studio apartment in a building with a doorman in Lower Manhattan was $2,175; it was $2,206 on the Upper East Side; and on the Upper West Side it was $1,989 . . . .

On the Upper East Side, the report said, the average rent for a three-bedroom apartment in a doorman building was $6,343, up 1.8 percent from $6,231 at the end of last year, and 44.1 percent from $4,401 in 1994. On the Upper West Side, a three-bedroom in a doorman building averaged $6,350, up 4.8 percent from $6,060 in December, and 67.2 percent from $3,796 in 1994.

In the two-bedroom category for buildings without a doorman, the report said, the average rent on the Upper East Side was $3,244, an increase of 21.6 percent from $2,668 at the end of last year, and 65.5 percent more than the $1,960 average in 1994. On the Upper West Side, the no-doorman two-bedroom apartment averaged $3,774, up 16.4 percent from $3,243 in December, and 62.1 percent over $2,328 in 1994. And in Lower Manhattan, the midyear average was $4,045, 13.3 percent more than $3,569 in 1999, and 39.5 percent more than $2,900 six years ago. . . .

LICC, these are all rent figures from 2000. Don't you need average prices as well to generate a price to rent ratio? You are a fucking idiot. Tell me, do you really not believe that apartments traded at 10x gross rent and less in the mid 1990s? I repeat, mid 1990s. Your rent data from 2000 does not even make a ratio, never mind refute anything said about the MID 1990s TROUGH you braindead buffoon.

What level has Steve sunk to? Do you think he's lying about what he paid in rent, or paid to buy an apartment? It sounds like he paid 10.5x one bed rent for a two bed! You are a sad but interesting creature.

i would have to agree from my own recollections that in the 80's and 90's this ratio was 10 or lower. factoring in the tax consequences (and not considering opportunity cost on 20% downpayment), it was certainly close to par to buy vs. rent and in my own experience actually a little bit cheaper -- particularly for larger apartments. The problem (at least for us) was coming up with the downpayment which although its chump change in today's numbers was quite significant at the time.

"I'm disappointed to see you try to sink down to his level."

Sorry for your disappointment, but you didn't provide the link.

Nor do you provide the link for what you write above.

Nonetheless, here is where you got the information from:

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/10/nyregion/residential-real-estate-manhattan-rents-go-ever-upward.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=2

The average rent for apartments in Manhattan below 96th Street jumped 10.7 percent to nearly $3,000 during the first six months of this year, according to one survey of the market, topping off a six-year period during which rents increased by nearly 46 percent.

At the end of June, the report said, the average rent for apartments of all sizes was $2,984, compared with $2,696 at the end of 1999. In December 1994, the average was $2,046.

The statistics were compiled by the Feathered Nest rental brokerage company [...]

Which is now part of Halstead:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3601/is_4_48/ai_78438053/

Nothing better than real estate prices reported by realtors, who don't explain where they get their data from!

I love 2000 rent data as a refutation of 1992-1996 price to rent ratios. I really got served. I am clearly delusional. Psychology is more interesting than real estate. What is behind LICCs denial of a relatively recent period of Manhattan real estate history. If I were to say, the stock market traded at single digit P/Es in the early 1980s bear market...would another set of maniacs like LICC, Alpine and Juice fall out of the sky to say I was making it up...call me delusional and the like?

Here's another...The stock market had barely ever traded over 20x until it traded up to 40x in the late 1990s. READY, AIM, FIRE AT ME....

Watch "Income Property" on HGTV. Though it's filmed in Toronto, you have people renovating their basements and the like and for 1 floor, often below grade, they get enough rent to pay 1/3 to 1/2 the mortgage on the WHOLE house.

Try that in Park Slope.

It really seems to boil down to the idea that real estate used to be looked at like a bond, then it became cool to look at it like equity. Even when it was a bond it made sense at a high yield... I just found a good comp for my rental... they still want 19x for it. Cash yield/cap rate still only about 4%. They want $1.125mm for it....back on the market after being pulled off in December at $1.545mm. To get a 6% yield it would have to fall to $750k. That would still be 12.5x rent.

I see the mob is out.
where do I pick up my pitch fork and torch?

Iz gotz my steak knife and dora the explorer fork... let me at em....let me at em....

Oh don't forget the mighty GOD of cash flow to come show the bubble buyers the falseness of their GREATER LEVERAGE GOD... its' gonna be some ass kicking in the financial heavens....

HA w67! I HAVE A MARY POPPINS SILVER SPOON FROM 1964!

Ha-ha-ha! Beats your Dora the Explorer fork any day!

(BTW: is it the old Dora, or the new post-puerile one?)

pre-puerile... LMAO.. do you collect children spoons? I have 2 small children, so I'm allowed... a grown man ???? hmmmmmm hmmmm :)

No I don't collect, actually - my mother kept it from when I was 4, and she gave it to me a few years ago.

the proverbial silver spoon! HA!

thxs for reminding me to keep a dora spoon for my daughter :)

For my son's 15th birthday gift I plan on giving him a diaper w/ a snickers bar in it :) and the keys to a beater porsche that he's gotta fix up with the old man :) Like it or not.

unless he leans towards the barbie dollz... then I'll get him a VW bug.....

Nah - just take the adult controls off the Internet and let him fly solo.

hahahahhahahhhahahahahhhahahahahahah! he may go BLIND, man, BLIND.....

Thxs for making my day. How easily we forget those early solo days :)

If only there had been an Internet!

So Rhino comes on here a few weeks ago, says the whole ratio went haywire in 2004 (with nothing to actually back up his statement but some chart that is not on point), was unlike anything prior in history, and when I show him how in 1999 and 2000 in NYC the ratios were similar, and I show the NY Times information and Miller Samuel to actually back it up, he tries to change the argument and say he was right.

Do you and steve ever get tired of losing arguments to me? You pick arguments, lose badly, get very upset and nasty about it, then pick another argument to lose to me to repeast the cycle.

LICC - you've never won an argument on Streeteasy. Why can't you just show the numbers to back up your claim? You see, if you can't (which you can never do), we'll all just continue to believe you have no idea what you're talking about.

LICC who has lost an argument to you? All you have proven is that you can't back up your claims and that you are woefully ignorant of Manhattan real estate history. I showed you a graph that clearly illustrated 2004 price to rents were a new high (post 1980). How is a graph of price to rent ratios not on point in a discussion of price to rent ratios. You are a sad, sad case. How could anyone who bought the top in a fringe shithole of an area consider themselves smart?

> LICC - you've never won an argument on Streeteasy.

Yeah, I don't remember that either...

w67thstreet
about 6 weeks ago
For my son's 15th birthday gift I plan on giving him a diaper w/ a snickers bar in it :)