state and operation of the rental market

I would say that besides Clinton Hill and Astoria, your approaches may not work to reach the right demographic. Forest Hills and Midwood still have a substantial amount of renters/buyers who are computer illeterate when it comes to real estate. They just expect to go to a few brokers in the neighborhood and have them bring them to the listings. By putting your adds in the local papers, you may get a better response.

I sometimes drive around and see signs of FSBO or a real estate that I've never heard of. I then go on the web to try to find these listings and....... nothing. I open up a local paper and there it is. Even during peaks, you would be able to find bargains.

rb - I have had similar experience - my impression from knowing someone looking is that no matter what the price, the prospective renter thinks it's too high, no matter where the location - I hear different stories from different sources and nothing computes - ads in NYT and streeteasy are not a gauge of where the market is

ab11218:

I've actually had better results in Forest Hills and Midwood than in Astoria and Clinton Hill. but even in those neighborhooods I have found people to be very tentative and slow to commit.

not sure what you original question is. people are very uncertain and concerned about their finanacial situation? why is that surprising?

Ads show rents higher than those shopping are willing to pay, so they don't commit. It's a disconnect between owners and renters.

so...landlords think their places are worth more than do the prospective tenants? so, rentals have slowed way down? sounds like a market that is functioning....slowly.

If you had better results in Midwood and Forest Hills, then your asking rents on CH and Astoria are most likely too high. Just like the sales market, the rental market in those areas were hit hard. Midwood and Forest Hills did not experience such insanity in increases and are holding on better.

ab11218:

I'm using the exact same pricing methodology in all four neighborhoods. Ironically, I've done best in Midwood, the only neighborhood where my apartment appeared to have been priced too high using my stand-rad pricing formula - possibly because Midwood is less connected to the Manhattan job market than the
three other neighborhhods I've been renting in, or pehaps because Midwood's large population of Orthodox
Jews with large families has created a local relative scarcity of rental housing,

rb, maybe people looking in Astoria and Clinton Hill found for only a little more they could live in Manhattan, and the only reason they had looked in Astoria and CH was too-high rents in LES

rb, you hit it on the nose with Midwood. they have new condos that went up on Ave L and Ocean Parkway and people have paid significant amount of money for them because it is across the street from the synagogue. a similar situation can exist in Forest Hills, but not to such degree.

rental prices in Park Slope, Prospect Heights and Fort Greene have come down significantly. As you know, CH was the second choice for most of the people. i would expect that most people will be willing to pay $100-300 more per month, depending on the size of the apartment, in their first choice neighborhoods.

unfortunately, astoria never got "yuppified" as it was expected. i knew many people who moved there because of the commute and the safety of the neighborhood. in the last 2 years, they started looking elsewhere due to not having enough restaurants/bars/grocery stores come into the neighborhood to fullfill their needs. one person who i know just rented a share for $600 per month in a 3 Br/1.5 bath apartment. he couldn't get close to that rent, he was willing to go to $900, in Park Slope/Carroll Gardens area.

lowery:

Your are correct about the effect Manhattan has on the CH and Astoria markets. My former CH tenant moved
there; at least one person hot for my apartment selected the East village over CH.It ended up renting to someone who works in Brooklyn, further southt than CH.

As to Astoria, for years my astoria tenants were refugees from the UES. After supplying them with blankets and the addresses of temporary soup kitchens, I gave them leases.

Now I know two owners on the UES with multiple vacancies despite lowering their asking prices by 25%,
And we're talking below 94th Street and sometimes west of 1st Avenue as well. With that weakness in the
UES it is no surprise that Astoris has weakened.

and ab.11218, thanls for your continuing input/

rb345, you are confirming what I am experiencing in western Queens as well, that reverse migration that is a symptom of severe RE downturn - I think I may start watching UES rentals closely myself - do you think UWS has seen comparable decline in rents?

this is fascinating. and then what happens when price levels lower? adjustment happens there as well, making some people who might think that manhattan would be better reconsider because now they can get their Brooklyn apartment of their dreams.

Lowery:

I'm not as familiar with the UWS because I live on the UES. But to my knowedleg the markets are being
affected in roughly the same way.

Truth is, it could get much worse. There are many wys to define rent in economic terms, but the simplest is what's left over after life's other basics have been paid.

With consumer income continuing to decline and American workers almost completely lacking in pricing power, rents could fall a lot further both within NYC and the nation as a whole.

Howeverm if that happens, it will increase the likelihood of a severe depression.

rb, if prices are declining on the UES west of First, they will certainly fall in the outer boros!

lowery

Until and unless the job market firms up, rents will be under downward pressure, and could easily
collapse to the extend of being down 50% or more from their peak. If you're a landlord, you need to
be very craeful in tenant selection, and work overtime to keep your tenants happy ... which in any
event is a good attitude to have regardless of market conditions.

rb345, my father taught me that in these times the richer/smarter get richer.... the LLs who have very little leverage and live a modest lifestyle look at this as an opportunity. I certainly do, if you have luxury of lowering prices and still be ahead, then congrats, otherwise I don't see the rental mkt holding up.. all LLs are competing fiercely for the $5000/month rent... it won't be long till they'll be fighting for the $4K then $3K, the ones that can't 'hang' will drop the keys of use their savings to support their RE.... some will survive ala Falcogold1 others will take it in the nutz... IMHO.... everyone is shocked, this movie has been played over and over again... but NOT ON THIS MAGNITUDE!

w67thstreet:

I try and keep an open mind. But I agree with you, the overleveraged and desperate will destroy
the rental market for more prudent owners. There is also increasing competition for landlords from
the housing shadow market of parents, siblings, children, relatives and friends with spare rooms,
basements, couches and unused outhouses. Within the last 4-5 weeks i ran into three people with jobs
who had moved into such shadow housing to save money - one an attorney who moved in with her parents

I've been a renter for 6 years. I've always paid my rent on time & until recently have been happy with my apartment. However when I asked my landlord if I could have a small apartment size dog & she said, "No." I've begun looking elsewhere. I will not be renewing my lease with her. Nor will I recommend her building to friends of mine who are currently looking. If you don't appreciate a good tenant, that tenant will leave.

ILuvNewYork:

Being nasty, rude, inconsiderate, etc., brings out the worst in tenants. While the converse isnt always
true, being polite, fair and respomsive is a much better way to run a rental business

Thanks rb345 I've always felt that way too and i've gone out of my way to take good care of the apartment I live in. I keep it very clean. i've painted it with my own time & money & I even put a beautiful ceiling fan in the living room but I was still told "No you can't have a dog." To which I say "Screw you I'll find another landlord!" b/c I know there are plenty like yourself who would appreciate a good tenant--especially in this market.

ILux:

Painting and improving your apartment are extras. All I really look for to be very happy is someone who pays their rent on time, unless they have a problem and alert me to it, answers or returns phone calls in a reasonable time, and is reasonable, cooperative and polite .. in other words, someone who makes
management of their apartment easy rather than an ordeal

I just signed a lease for a new apartment today. (Carroll Gardens) My previous landlord had not been making repairs to the apartment, like fixing holes in the wall, leaking pipe, etc, while he seemingly has no job and his kids are in school. I will be paying more but I will be getting more also. I could have stretched to buy something but see no hurry with what's going on.

But here's what's making me angry. When my lease came up in March, I told him I did not want to sign for one year because I was getting close to buying and there was a good chance I would leave before the lease was up. He told me that if I signed for one year and broke the lease, the worst that would happen would be that I would lose my deposit if he couldn't get a renter in on time, but that $2200 would not be a "big deal" in the context of buying a place. Not a big deal for him, but a big deal for me. So I told him I didn't want to take that chance and wanted to go month to month.

A couple of days later he informed me that he needed a lease signed and I needed to increase my deposit to reflect my current rent (which he didn't need if I was signing for a year), and we would write month to month on the lease. This is what we did.

Last month, when I found another place and told him I was leaving he said, "Well you could lose your deposit if I can't get a renter in one month, remember I told you that?" I said, "But we have a month to month lease." He said, "No you signed for a year." I said, "We wrote month to month on it." He said, "Yeah, but its month to month for a year. You're still responsible for me finding a tenant." I said, "What is the difference between what you are telling me and a one year lease?" And he said, "If you hadn't written month to month on it, I could have gone after you for the full year's rent."

I checked my lease and indeed its written with an end date of one year on it. I never had a month to month before and didn't realize what he was doing. Is there even such a thing as month to month for one year?

Then somehow he spoke to the new landlords and they decided not to rent to us.

Happy ending, we found something we like better, right around the corner. Amazingly, he told the broker he was surprised we were leaving. But I want my F-ing deposit back. Any advice from all you LL's and renters? Think I have a chance in housing court? I did nothing but improve my dwelling also, I was the only one who did any painting.

jm

glad it ended relatively well. housing court might not look so good if you're looking to buy a coop, but we bought one with housing court (we were sued) on our record.

Housing court is only for regulated housing. If the apartment isn't regulated you need to go to small claims court.

If he spoke to the new landlords & they didn't rent to you, you can sue him for slander.

small claims court would be much better. we had a rs lease at the time.