Where can you buy this apartment for $3,600 a month

Bjw, apologies on the attitude. Just saw a big ol' fashioned bar brawl, and I came out swingin' every whacha way.

Boss77, not at a computer and won't be near one for a bit, so had to pull out the finger method. One measurement gave 750, another 800, so I think we're in the same ballpark.

Did you get 2 months free upfront? $3600 doesnt seem like a bargain, maybe a decent monthly deal but no bargain for todays market.

"truth, I don't really identify with either, but it is amusing that one of this board's biggest bear is pushing an inflated square footage measurement - seems a bit off, no?"

bjw
Well I stand by my 1079 sq ft measurement. Which is what, 11% off? Plus you have the balconies which are small but are 2 and are like 77 sq ft each. So if you allot 1/2 a foot of exterior to measure against interior that brings your total to 1156 sq ft. Pretty close to 1200. :)

Still I agree, it is amusing when arguments are uncharacteristically used to support a different perspective.
A lesson for bulls and bears? :)

In the end however, it eventually is everyone's best interest for them to come up with some standardized set of rules and practices on square footage. With so many periphals that do factor or rely on such figures, I think the industry desperately needs to clean it up.

Square footage affects, taxes, maintenance charges, and comps greatly.
The wild west attitude this vehicle is left in by the powers that be is disturbing to say the least.

Yeah, steve, I know how nice the area is now - I lived in that area in 1983-1985 and it's an astonishing transformation

I think it's the perfect apartment for you, from everything you've ever said about yourself and what's important to you. But having no dog in the race and having explored LIC and Wmsburg recently, as well as having familiarity with 9th and 10th these days, I think it's a tossup, depending on what's important to the individual. LIC would be rough for someone who likes nightlife and eating out. But I don't think you're ever going to be able to purchase condo value in your new neighborhood anywhere near what you will be able to get for the same price in Wmsbg or LIC, for instance.

I am going with just over 1000 sq ft. 36' x 40' lot with a little more than 25% missing.

I think you know Steve, that appropriately hit for opportunity cost and transaction costs there's no way to duplicate this. Now if you want to ignore opportunity cost and give credit for all the tax benefits the way some want to, then sure.

Inonada - thanks.

I've been in that line at the Ellington, probably 12-14 months ago. Based on both the floorplan and having been inside, I'd say somewhere between 1000-1100 SF.

I am far, far from a snob for finishes (our current rental is average at best), but the finishes here and the building itself were awful. They did say they were doing a lot of work, so if all/most of that is done, then I do think Steve got a pretty good deal. I like the area a lot too.

Just a quick aside regarding a "comparable" apartment at 230 West 55th. We looked at an apt there too, and you literally couldn't stand to be inside the apartment because of the floors and walls shook from construction next door. So I think it's a bad comp.

I think this is kind of a sad story, 2 bedrooms, 2 balconies, 2 cats, single man approaching 50 years old, still bragging about personal posessions.

I think this is kind of a sad story - jforbes following my life so closely.

newby - they've redone the bathrooms, redone the balconies, redone the lobby (underway). It could use better kitchen cabinets and better closet doors. That's it. No worse than a condo or co-op from 1987.

Juicy, still waiting for your realistic comps, & your square-foot calculations!

nice job, steve. it seems perfect for your needs, and a good deal as well. enjoy.

Went yesterday with a friend to measure - measurements on plan are accurate to the inch (except the alcove area to the outside wall is over 16', not indicated). View to-die-for, I have no plans to move ever, as I seriously doubt property prices will fall enough in the midterm to match this cost. Hell, property tax alone on a place this size would be about $1,200 a month.

After reviewing the property we moseyed over to 9th Ave. with its great restaurants & stuff to do. At at 5 Napkin Burgers -DEELISH!

My jr 4 is a little larger than that apt. but it's an anomaly because it has 2 full baths. Nice apt steve. I only have one balcony too. I would say it's about 1000 sf mine is about 1065 Go for it

ccc - it's 1100 to 1200 square feet unquestionably. Remeasured yesterday. It's gorgeous.

here's my floor plan -
http://www.rivergatenyc.com/plansPDFs/Rivergate_S5-32B.pdf
they told me 1100

Steve, using 2' depth of kitchen counter for scale, and measuring by condo method (outside wall to halfway-through demising walls) it comes to 1168, so spot-on.

Not that it matters, unless you're pricing wall-to-wall carpet or something.

Oh - the "chink" in the corner of bedroom #2 is actually a closet.

I counted that, figuring it was used for a hallway electrical closet only on some floors. Note the corresponding divot in the D-line plan at http://ellingtonnyc.com/floorplanpdfs/Floors18-281bdrD.pdf.

The D line actually does have that chink - at least the unit I saw. May not be every floor, however.

W2W carpeting?! YUCK.

Usually they're one every several floors. Your neighbor in 21D wouldn't have it. This being NYC, those ~32 cubic feet count.

I thought this was a decent deal. I rented the identical unit facing north never lived in to two friends (who love it) for $3000 per month, no fee with a 2 year lease. They were already in HK on 46th and wanted to stay. http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/rental/426686-condo-516-w-47th-st-clinton-new-york

ccc - similarly sized.

If these rentals being posted, KeithB's included, are any indication, then property prices have a long way yet to plummet.

or they could just plummet in exact proportion to rentals' plummet rate, i.e., maintaining the same spread - or..... shudder ..... they could over-plummet

The rental market is very neighborhood specific regarding availability/price. 90% of the clients that come to me won't live in HK or Midtown West or East...not at any price. That is what is supporting prices in prime Greenwich Village and the West Village where my rental side biz is focused. These are wonderful neighborhoods to live in, many make certain sacrifices to make that possible.

There are also many people doing the reverse of Stevejhx, moving from what they consider a less desirable location into a location where they have dreamed about living, say 10th street between 5th and 6th ave or Horatio Street and Washington. They are taking advantage of rents that are say 20% off peak and availabilities that just were not there two years ago.

Its a quality of life issue not just a financial one.

They should cost the same out-of-pocket (excluding offsetting tax / investment benefits).

Meaning that at 6% interest, 30-year fixed, with taxes / common charges a generously undervalued $1,200 a month, the apartment could cost no more than $500,000 (mortgage = $400,000, monthly payments ~ $2,400), assuming that transaction costs over time approximately equal rent increases (which they don't, they're a lot higher under a 2-year lease scenario).

Currently apartments of this size in this neighborhood are going for about $900,000. Seems like there's still plenty of room to fall.

Juicy?

KeithB, I've lived in the West Village, I live in Chelsea, am moving to Midtown West. Each neighborhood has its advantages and disadvantages. For instance, I love 99 Jane, but an apartment the size of my rental costs $1.5 million right now, or slightly higher. 100 Jane across the street is significantly less expensive to rent, but the units are much smaller. I see very little difference between Chelsea & Midtown West, and the differences with the WV are there, but not worth the price. Very few rentals in those areas.

Since my children grew up in a house on w.22 between 9th & 10th in a home their mom owns. I would have to respectively disagree that it is similar to Midtown West. :)

"To each his own said the farmer who kissed a cow".

I think this is kind of a sad story, 2 bedrooms, 2 balconies, 2 cats, single man approaching 50 years old, still bragging about his rental deal, bested by KeithB who found a similar apartment for one of his clients, not for $3600 but $3000 instead.

Depends on where in Chelsea, KeithB. I'm between 6th & 7th - just like Midtown West. Over by the seminary it's very nice; near the Fulton Houses not so much.

When my grandmother grew up in Chelsea in the 1920's it was an Italian slum, not all too different from Hell's Kitchen, which was an Irish slum.

jforbes - please! You're not even remotely funny or interesting. And KeithB did find a nice apartment - much smaller in not as nice a neighborhood, but nice nonetheless.

Funny the power some people feel when they're anonymous.

And jforbes, since this is the first thread in which your userid appears, yet you know so much about me, WHO ARE YOU REALLY? LICC?

Wife's family bought the house in 1959 and both her parents had been in the city (Chelsea, Village and Hell's kitchen) since the early 50's. I moved to NYC in 1981 lived on Norfolk and Houston paying a whopping $200 dollars a month and had 2 roommates...nice. Was able to play music and live quite comfortably selling screen printed tee shirts(which I made) in Washington square Park and various record stores.

I still love New York.

Where's Juicy?

Keith..Have to say that I agree with Steve. Don't believe he downgraded location. The 6th ave corridor is not the Chelsea the seminary area is. And if you exclude the tourist element, HK is pretty awesome--its safe now and has great low cost dining option but hasn't yet been gentrtified into prettiness. (Still have bodegas...not all cafes).
Did you wife go to IS 70 for what is now middle school?

Oh and btw Mr jforbes/steve stalker....there is nothing SAD about having two cats. And I'm sure you have spent enough time perusing these boards to know that Steve is committed to renting in this environment as market theory (agree or not) and not financial necessity and KeithB is an established real estate agent who is working to develop a more consumer centric "home seeking" model that will also be profitable for him and his associates.

Agreed lizyank - 9th Ave. in HK is as nice or nicer than 8th Ave. in Chelsea. More mixed, safe, plenty to do. Not the same as when my sister lived there 20 years ago above the OTB, when it was scary.

10 years ago when I moved to the WV I wouldn't step foot in Chelsea b/c it was scary. Then Christopher Street turned scary, with porn shops & tattoo parlours. Ellington is in a FAB hood, blocks from everything. Seminary block? No. But the seminary block may be pretty, but I prefer living in modern buildings with modern amenities without wood joists. Don't mind looking out on pretty, but I live on the inside.

If you want a perfect illustration of change in New York City it is Hell's Kitchen.
When I lived there people getting knifed to death on the sidewalks was a common occurrence. I stepped over bloodtrails, and I stepped over vomit.

I gave up on it long before it got to where it is now, but the gentrification started way back in the early '80s, even when it was still murderously dangerous. One of my neighbors in my building moved down to Alphabet City, around Avenue B, and that was a step UP in the world.

You will never go hungry, or get bored with the restaurants, if you are off of Ninth Avenue in the '50s.

Stevejhx, congratulations on your new apt. The layout and room sizes are great. Anyone know where I can get such a deal on the UWS in a rental building or long-term condo rental? And with a view. Great deal!

Steve: I think your apt sounds like a great deal. Ordinarily, I wouldn't consider that neighborhood but that kind of deal sparks my interest and I think I'll take a walk over there. I think we need to be very conservative in these coming days. We have gone through a tectonic shift in our culture and our economy. Considering economics over lifestyle choices seems like a very sober, very sane route-- even if it for a short period.

apt23, do check it out. i don't spend that much time in hell's kitchen these days because of life's logistics, but i must admit that i was there during some more challenging years (1988-90 and 1994-96), obviously not the most challenging (but still), and i loved it (even living across from a crack park, but youth is relatively blind). it was very different then, but so was i (younger, less encumbered). i only felt threatened once, and it was an easily diffused situation, even back then. the food is great, the people are interesting, and the location is convenient.

thanks AR, I will. I go to theatre at least 6 times a month so it would certainly save on cab fares. never thought of living in that area but my thought right now is to rent for a year to see where the market goes. So I guess since it won't be a long term move, I should be more attuned to price point than location. Never occurred to me that you could get a 2 bed for under 4000.

An apt like that (much better new developments) in your neighborhood is going for $900k-1mil with 10 year tax abatement $800-1000 CC
Just check the new developments on the front page.

BTW, Five Napkin Burger is the most nastiest burger joint I've ever had. I'd rather have mine at the Houston's on midtown east.

apt23, I personally would pick steve's location over any in NYC.
Walking distance to TimeSquare, Central Park, TWC/whole food, subways, etc

Where's Juicy?

stevejhx: You were afraid to walk in Chelsea in 1998? You must be from a very small town in the Midwest, no sarcasm intended. Chelsea covers a large swath of NYC, but even in 1983 I was not afraid of any Chelsea block, but I guess that's just me.

Regarding HK, I love it and we dine there at least once a month. I never was critical of Steve's new hood, just pointed out what I hear from my clients. I think he got a good deal.

liz: She went to West Village Nursery school in 1968 (our kids were the first second generation to go) then went to Bank Street school, United Nations for HS.

I don't eat beef but my wife has reported the same about "5 napkin burger". :)

Keith, parts of Chelsea were tres nasty in the late 80's. FYI I was born in Astoria.

ba294 says it all: Let's say $950k for a similar apartment, $900 CC, $1200 taxes per month when the abatement goes away. Why would anyone buy? Especially b/c Ellington is not the only good rental building at that prices level.

Does it have marble baths? No. Do I like marble baths? Yes. Do I need marble baths?

Not for $10,000 extra a month.

Juicy? Comments? "Tax benefit" anyone?

Did anyone catch what amenity of Steve's new apartment is being left out?

It's seven short blocks from Central Park.

No Washer/Dryer...that counts for something

Does, apt_boy - there is a washer and dryer on each floor, 5 apartments per floor. I think I can step out the door to do that.

Yes, lowery, I'm not at 15 CPW. Damn! All I'd need is to make another $500,000 a month, and I might be able to afford it.

(As if it's really worth it!)

keith, i lived on a sketchy block in Chelsea in the mid-80s. my only really negative NYC experience occurred there, although in retrospect it could have occurred on any number of blocks, it just happened to occur close to home. i still loved the neighborhood, but my location wouldn't have been for the faint of heart.

Surely Juicy and/or his BFF LICC can justify current prices SOMEHOW based on equivalent rents. Since the consensus is that this apartment is about 1200 square feet, JM and LICC, the race is on....

Thanks for sharing - nice data point and consensus is that you got a good deal.

"9th Ave. in HK is as nice or nicer than 8th Ave. in Chelsea"
Agreed - 8th Ave in Chelsea is just dirty and gross, however, 7th, 9th, and 10th ave in Chelsea are quite lovely and much more pleasant than anything in HK, even with Robert Fulton Houses. The street blocks in Chelsea are also significantly more charming than those in HK. I don't live in either neighborhood - just my opinion.

In the mid-80s west 17th street was a drive through drug market and there were many other locations in Chelsea that were far from pleasant (full disclosure at the time I didn't necessarily see anything wrong with with street drug dealing) and welfare hotels such as the Allerton on 8th Avenue were definitely part of the scene. As I remember it, aside from some always nice blocks around the seminary and a few other places, Chelsea didn't start to recover until the AIDS epidemic seemingly made survivors want a make a new start in a new gay neighorhood away from heartbreaking memories in the West Village.
Regardless, HK today is a great area..as is much of Chelesea. Both areas also have public housing which mean they will never be 100% upscale and pristine (I always get a kick about that one block of retail on 9th Avenue--I think its between 17th and 18th--that exisits to serve the Fulton houses. The bastion of bodegas amongst the cupcakes), and therefore will remain just a little more authentically New York than the West Village and some other places.

Amazing how quiet JuiceMan and LICC are now that they've seen what $3,600 a month can rent: a $1 million dollar apartment.

There is no explanation or justification for today's prices. The Ellington isn't the only rental in that area at that price, which indicates a 50% fall in at least some property prices is needed to equal rents.

It will take some time, but it will happen.

BUY NOW OR BE PRICED OUT FOREVER!

LICComment!? What am I doing wrong?! Can you make sense of this?

petrzitz: Is this a good way to make money in today's real estate market? Not buying?

Juicy?! Where's the real comp?

ba294 "I personally would pick steve's location over any in NYC.
Walking distance to TimeSquare, Central Park, TWC/whole food, subways, etc"

midtown west, the #1 neighbourhood is nyc? NO F***ING WAY!!!

midtown EAST is 100 times better, 46 and lex e.g. is THE SHHIT! you have all the stuff listed above PLUS you're only a few blocks away from grand central and murray hill.

A few blocks from Murray Hill!

MU7-7500.

Steve, what's missing here from your rent/buy comparison, unless I skipped some posts, is what sticker price does a condo have if its gross carrying charges are $3,600/mo. I'm guessing cc+RE taxes for a two-br should be between $1,000-$1,600 mo. Does that means a mortgage payment of $2,000-$2,600/mo? Sounds to me like leaving out tax breaks, $3,600 is in the approximate neighborhood of a $500,000-$600,000 condo with 20% down? This is where it gets kind of fun. Forget comp apartments. Comp the prices. Yes, I know this has been hashed out ad nauseam, but still............. BTW, I can remember Chelsea being just as scarey as Hell's Kitchen, and there's a crazy scene in "Midnight Cowboy" that takes place in a crazy guy's tenement apt that captures the look and feel of how I remember first seeing Chelsea. Does W.52nd St. get bragging points for being near the Lincoln Square area, and near W.57th St? Or does its fitting within HK's radius condemn it? I don't remember ever hearing it said about Carnegie Tower, for instance, that unfortunately it's only a few blocks from housing projects.

The problem is simple to resolve, lowery: if you can buy a place under normal market conditions (30-year fixed 80/20 mortgage) and rent it out to a third party and break even, then you have the proper price.

Alas, the breakeven point for this transaction would be a cost of $500,000, half what similar apartments in the area are going for.

Because all the other variables more or less offset each other (tax deductions, opportunity cost, transaction costs, increasing rent, increasing common charges, etc.).

Hey thanks this is really helpful. My bf and I are looking at a 2 bedroom in Chelsa. It doesn't have a great view at all and actually not a high floor (in a regular rental building), but it is well located on 21st off 6th avenue and quiet (next to a cemetary, hopefully not too creepy). They wanted $4400 we've been pretty aggressive and are considering if we want to push from the $3800 they came down to (plus a free month and our local move expenses paid), maybe I'll see if we can play hardball and get $3600! (its not for a few months ready to move) but don't want to be so aggressive we lose it to someone else.

One concern though, decent apartment, nothing special on the kitchen and bath, they said they'd actually do a lot of fix up, but the place kind of smells, I hope that's not the building and maybe just the tenant now and the cats and it will be cleared up by the time we are ready to move in in a few months. Any advice?

Thanks!

gloverpark, you're moving into my present building, 21 Chelsea. B&L refuses to negotiate with current tenants. The building doesn't smell, but if you're in the 01 line on a lower floor, you'll be right in front of the trash pickup every morning at 7 a.m.

Oh - and notice the silence of LICC and Juicy!

gloverpark, if you're renting 301 stop by some Friday or Saturday night at bar closing time (Sunday or Monday morning 4 am, depending on how you look at it). The noise from the 21st Street bars between 5th & 6th is unbearable - horns honking, drunken obscenities being shouted, the N word figures prominently. I wake up very morning from it, have had to call the police on a few occasions. A few weeks back there was a fight in front of the building, broken glass up and down the street, they shattered the lobby window, security cameras had to be installed.

Didn't used to be like this - the police used to control that block with horses and squad cars. No more. Bless you if you take it at any price - I'm on a high floor & it's annoying. Can't imagine being on a low floor.

I lived in the neighborhood for many years. W. 51st street and W. 54th and 8th (at the Marc). in 2004 I looked at the exact apartment you're renting. I passed and chose the Marc instead. The Ellington is kind of gross. Maybe if they're redoing it but still....dark, dank, very 80's.

2004 was a long time ago. Lobby being redone, bathrooms redone, balconies redone, all it really needs is new kitchen cabinets and closet doors. My apt. is all windows.

The Marc is fine - if you don't mind paying 75% more for less room.

All Quiet on the JuiceMan front....

Does a two-year lease make it difficult to buy if an attractive place comes up?

Or did you just assume that the market has at least two more years of correction ahead of it?

"Does a two-year lease make it difficult to buy if an attractive place comes up?"

If you think that sellers will get realistic in the short- to medium-term and cut their prices 50% in a year to 18 months, then I guess it does.

But I think, instead, that inventories will rise.

"Does a two-year lease make it difficult to buy if an attractive place comes up?"

I can't imagine it would be that big of a hassle, unless you find a can't-pass-it-up kind of deal in month 2 of your lease. You have options: break the lease and move in; buy the new place and rent it out until your lease is up; or simply carry both places til the lease is up (especially if you don't stretch to buy, which you shouldn't be doing in the firstplace).

$3,600 a month is not a stretch.

steveF thinks that now I'm a "bitter renter" more than ever.

Actually - I'm a Delighted Renter!

Holy crap steve, are you obsessed or what? I told you before, if I am reading I will respond. No need to go all mental. The answer to your question is simple, find a 2 bed 2 bath around $850k or under in Midtown West and you have a good comp. I'm not going to pick one because you will always have something to nit-pick about it. It really isn't that hard steve, there are a number of them out there right now.

I also find it humorous how you have completely changed your method of calculating square feet when discussing your rental vs. apartments that have been posted on this board to purchase. How funny and predictable.

Figures JuiceMan would change the subject! The universal opinion here (other than yours) is 1100 to 1200 square feet. I'm happy with that. $850,000 gives you mortgage payments of about $4,100 a month, already above my rent. Add in common charges and taxes, and you're looking at over $6,000 a month.

Like this one, $5,000 WITHOUT PROPERTY TAX:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/461903-condo-517-west-46th-street-clinton-new-york

and next to the projects.

Better than your theory, find a 2-bedroom 2-bathroom 2 balcony apartment in that neighborhood that has a total cost of $3,600. There are none.

And no - I didn't change my method of calculating square feet. I always used the same method, and if you look, when 350 Bleecker 4G was advertised as 950 square feet, I called them out on it and started a thread about it.

Steve 99, JuiceMan 0.

Or this one, Juicy:

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/407658-coop-100-west-57th-street-clinton-new-york

Down Payment $180,000
Mortgage Amount $720,000
Mortgage Payment $4,088
Total Monthly Payment $6,403

Unless you do what you do, count the "tax benefit" without all the offsetting charges, like opportunity cost and transaction charges!

Steve 100, JuiceMan 0.

"The universal opinion here (other than yours) is 1100 to 1200 square feet."

Uh, no. It's probably ~975 sqft. Either way, it's a pretty good deal for yourself, Steve. I don't know why you insist on pimping this thread any further though.

Well then all I can say steve is enjoy your 1100 sqft (hee hee hee) place. A little over ten years from now when you are paying a market rate rent of $5800 / mo for the same place and I'm sending in my last mortgage check at a significant discount to current rents, we'll see who made the right choice. Does your landlord plan to give you a share of his profits at the end of 10 years?

"Add in common charges and taxes, and you're looking at over $6,000 a month."

See the other 598 threads that in detail explain why this is wrong. No need to rehash.

bjw, see above in this thread for where I've asked JM to estimate the sizes of other apartments, and he refuses to do so.

"See the other 598 threads that in detail explain why this is wrong."

The only ones still posting on those "598 threads that in detail explain why this is wrong" is you and LICC. You two alone believe it's a good idea to pay excessively for real estate.

No need to rehash. (hee hee hee).

"Does your landlord plan to give you a share of his profits at the end of 10 years?"

Does your bank accept short sales?

The appropriate comparison for a $3600 apartment would be in the $700-$800k range. To say $500k is ridiculous, so of course steve makes that claim.

I just noticed this thread- steve actually thought another person was me, again?!?!?

LICC:

1) Show us the math how you get the $700-$800k range. I showed you how I got my figure.

2) Not that it matters, because:

Real Estate for Sale
In Midtown West
We found 1 listings for no more than $800,000.00 with at least 2 bedrooms with at least 2 bathrooms

And not surprisingly, that ONE listing is the tenement that Juicy posted earlier in the thread as a "comp."

Show us what you think the comps are, LICC.

And here's the math on Juicy's comp:

Down Payment $139,800
Mortgage Amount $559,200
Mortgage Payment $3,175
Total Monthly Payment $4,700

http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/470094-coop-325-west-52nd-street-clinton-new-york

Change the sale price to $500,000, however, and here's what you get:

Down Payment $100,000
Mortgage Amount $400,000
Mortgage Payment $2,271
Total Monthly Payment $3,796

Pretty darn close to the rental, even if it's not a comparable apartment (it's a dive).

Oh! THE TAX BENEFIT!

And the transaction charges, and the opportunity cost, and the lost principal....

I've already gone over the analysis 500 times before, and showed how you are ridiculously wrong every time.

There are nice comps up to the $900k range, which you can assume would come down through negotiation to be as good or better deals than your place.

I'm quite the pyro, so I'll pour gasoline on both parties:

1. $3600 for the apartment in question tilts the rent/buy equation strongly in the direction of rent as things stand today.

2. As noted much earlier in this thread, the only way I could get to 1200 sq ft would be a 40' by 30' complete rectangle. This space is more or less 40' by 30' on the long sides but no where near a complete rectangle. So while a good deal, it's no where near 1200 sq ft.

How can you just ignore the tax benefit when comparing monthly costs? steve you are a glutton for ridicule!

"There are nice comps up to the $900k range, which you can assume would come down through negotiation to be as good or better deals than your place."

LICC - can I hire you to do the negotiations to whittle the prices down from $800,000 to $500,000, please?

secondandc, that's not pouring gasoline - you're completely right on both counts.

second, your measurements don't include the closet space, which is counted in the square feet, as it's not included in the room measurements.

I just looked at the floorplan. If it is to scale, there is no way the interior space is 1200sf. Maybe 1000.

Regardless of all that, the place looks nice at a decent price, good luck steve.

Thanks, LICC. Stunning views, as well.

Just nothing to buy at nearly that price - were there, I would.

The area is great. I have a good friend nearby, I like 9th Avenue in the 40s and 50s.

You should come visit LIC again steve - by the end of this month there will be 5 new restaurants opened in October, with more in the works!

The bottom wall line is 11' + 23'10" + the tub length in the bathroom. Call it 42' total.

The right wall line is 12'3" + 7'6" + 12'1" + half the tub length in the bathroom. Call it 35' total.

So the maximum rectangle is 1470 sq ft.

The "punchout" from the rectangle is roughly 19'7" X 25'. Call it 480 sq ft.

I'm tryin' to work with ya here, but that's the best I can do.

I believe the tax benefit is worthless with AMT. Also, the 28% cap on deduction is only going to get worse.

AMT does not reduce the mortgage deduction. Next . . .

No, AMT does not reduce mortgage deduction; it reduces tax deductions. Mortgage deduction is limited to a $1 million mortgage.

second - read the thread to see the proper way to calculate. I'll take 1100 - def. more than 1000, as I posted another floor plan that is square and measures about 975, smaller than mine.

Don't think I'll be headed to LIC anytime soon, LICC. I had enough of it when I visited my relatives in the Queensbridge Houses, years ago.

thanks steve! haven't owned in Nyc yet... and the cap rate on interest deduction, is that still only a proposal or passed into law?

"Does your bank accept short sales?"

Why would I care if I own the property outright? At the end of ten years you will have paid (with a conservative 5% increase per year in rent) $570k of rent to your landlord. What portion of that $570k will your landlord give back to you?

"Also, the 28% cap on deduction is only going to get worse"

Don't think this will happen.

"with a conservative 5% increase per year in rent"

That's a very bold increase in rent per year, JM. Rents increase in line with incomes 100% correlated; incomes don't go up 5% a year.

The landlord won't give anything back to me as he won't owe me anything. But if you buy that apartment at its current price of $10,000 a month, you will have paid $1,200,000 for something that I paid only $570,000 for, so it seems like I'm getting the better end of that deal.

5% per year increase as "conservative". Funny.

Impossible.

Sort of like a 25% annual rise in property prices.

FWIW, rent-stabilized units' rent went up an average 4.4% per year from 96-00.

And this year rent-stabilized units will go up, and market rentals will go down. There is no correlation between them. So what's your point?