cost for interior design - calling kylewest and others

One reason I was able to forego interior design services was that I am more familiar than most people with the resources out there and have a strong point of view aesthetically and didn't really need much guidance. You can save costs by paying no one to develop the interior design scheme--I simply articulated what I wanted to the architect and provided virtually every specification myself. I went to lighting showrooms, hardware and fixture stores, I negotiated (hard) my own pricing and developed the kitchen plan with the millworking company. The archit. helped my only where I didn't know, for example, whether I needed a low voltage or regular voltage recessed fixture; she would explain the differences. But in the end I spent what seemed like hundreds of hours tracking stuff down and sketching things for the GC and architect and making selections.

I don't think you save with a designer versus an architect...at least not that much. And given that, I prefer architects with a strong design background. The specialists can provide much design service, but they can't do much to help you create a cohesive overall design scheme in your home. It's a lot of cooks with no master menu. You have to be good enough to pull it all together or it'll all never jibe--the kitchen, baths, mouldings, tile work, hardware can be a disjoint mess if you don't have a strong vision that you are effective at articulating to each party involved.

$200K is not a lot of money for what you've outlined. It's $1.40 sq/ft. which is really low. For a reasonably high end job (nothing crazy), and with architectural services only (no interior design services) $200K might easily be spend on a jr-four with one bathroom. Here, you are doing 2 baths, an additional bedroom, and a large kitchen (not a galley anyway). That's potentially a lot of work and I think you have to really look at your budget--it concerns me. If this is a "gut" renovation with a couple of closet walls being moved, mouldings, gut baths and kitchen, redone floors, some electrical/lighting, maybe some radiator covers...I'd say more like $350,000 -- MAYBE $300,000 if you do a ton yourself. This is based on using an architect for design development, bidding, permit coordination and board approval, and construction oversight and high end finishes but not extensive interior design services.

Figure for a luxe job (marbles, polished nickel stuff, crowns, nice heavy doors, updated electrical, etc) very conservatively baths ($80K depending upon size and features), kitchen ($50K+), architect fees ($25K-30K), and we're already at $160K and haven't begun the electrical, floors, mouldings, doors, lighting fixutres, computer/speaker/tv wiring, new windows as needed, and any of the walls being rearranged. Without knowing more about the scope of your job this is all very hard to say. Do you want to talk more about what you want done if you could afford it all? Then we can work backwards from there.

I would concur with Kylewest in a way. The designer would usually do all the drawings and do all the running around, following up with the contractors (ie, tiles, cabinets) he/she will be there for the delivery when you are at work. An architect doesnt usually do that and the architect doesnt know all the sources the way an interior designer does.

There are many interior designers who just pick curtains and furniture but there are the REAL serious ones who do the drawings and dont have an architectural degree but know the engineering basics about moving walls, etc.

With my job the cabinet maker was being lazy about getting the cabinets made and delivered- it was the designer who ran after him (and everyone else) to get the job done. It would be a total waste of your time (unless you have nothing better to do) to run after all the people working on your job. If you get a good designer who really manages all the aspects of the job its 100% worth the money.

Also one more thing- the interior designer usually has all the sources- including the architects, GCs, where to find the everything, etc. They do get the trade discount as you mentioned - which is usually around 40%.

If a designer quoted you 20% I would say that is very inexpensive- most interior designers charge 35% of the total cost of the project.

hunterdouglas, thanks for explaining your services. we are still a bit away from that but i will save your info.

kylewest, thanks for your detailed reply. unfortunately, my budget is my budget - i can't afford to exceed it b/c i just don't want to go into debt. also, although the apt is in a doorman building, it isn't a fancy one and it is kind of postwar cookie-cutter, so do not want to "over-improve" the apt. i plan to live here 7-10 years and then hope to trade up to a nicer pre-war with high ceilings and fancy mouldings and such, so would rather save the 100k towards that and let it earn a return rather than sink it into this apartment.

here is more detail - the 2 baths are small - one has a tub and tile and toilet in great condition - i just plan to replace the vanity and mirror and fixtures. the other has a large shower which needs retiling and new vanity and floor tiles. i budgeted 50k for these two.

for the kitchen, the appliances are new (about 2 yrs old) mid-range (GE profile) appliances. i can keep these and pour the money into flooring, counters, backsplash, accent tiles, cabinets, etc. i budgeted 50k for this. OR, i can upgrade the appliances and just reface the cabinets, which are in good condition.

estimated budget for my other issues: painting full apt 8-10k architect/expeditor 25k hardwood floors - 21k installed (was quoted $15 per sq ft)

window treatments: 6 windows - i am budgeting 12k for this. the windows are nice and do not need replacing, but i want nice fabric and blinds

now we are at $168k and still need some of the other things you mentioned (would like to add more electrical outlets)

where should the remaining 32k go?

i'm thinking mouldings, maybe, and what else?

installing mouldings - how much is a simple, plain crown moulding? it seems like most of the post-war places like this don't have them - is that b/c of cost or b/c the ceilings are not high enough?

i will probably forego speaker wiring as it is expensive & i'm not an audiophile. may buy a sonos after i save up for it, but in the meantime can use my old but good system.

as for pulling it all together, i do have a strong sense of what i like and feel competent to carry it out and am very organized. i can unify the apt carrying certain features and materials and colors throughout - after all, it is really not that big of an apartment. the closets are fabulous and don't need changing (nice built-ins already, lights that pop on when you open the door) and the walls are in great condition - no holes, dents, crooked lines, cracks.

i am considering putting up a wall between the dining & living area (would be about 14ft long - how much?) but if it busts the budget, forget it.

ok, so......

what do you think?

5thGen - thanks - it was 20% of construction, plus 35% for everything else, plus the other fees (e.g. architect) i appreciate your point about not running after people and focusing on work instead of construction deliveries. have to figure that out. i have a flexible schedule but cannot devote more than 20 - 25 hrs wk to this during mon-fri. i sometimes have to work or be on call weekends but usually could dedicate that to shopping for things.

I think that you don't need to do much to this current apartment; just freshen it. There are new appliances in the kitchen & you want to replace them on a modest budget? HELLO. The bathrooms are in good shape but you want to replace the fixtures. Changing vanity, fine, but if you change the tub, there go your walls & tiling. You need new floors? Unless the current ones are shot, just refinish them for a couple of thou. RELAX. This isn't the Taj Mahal & you don't want to over-improve a so-so post war. Take a deep breath & calm down. Freshen it for maybe 50k & enjoy it as is.

5thgen, also, re the trade discount - one of the threads that got me started on this discussion was in some discussion kylewest mentioned that he almost always quietly asked for and received at least 10% and sometimes more off prices. So if a widget is 100 bucks and the designer gets it for 60 but marks it up to 81, plus i'm paying the designer a fee on top of that for her time, and i can get it for 90 and do the other work (chasing loose ends, prodding contractor & cabinet people) myself, it just seems worth it to me.

i'm frankly more scared of spending 50k on a designer and still having to do a ton of stuff myself.

Personally, I think 200k is overkill for a 2 bedroom, post-war co-op that sounds like it's in good condition overall and that you're not going to live in forever.

Also, from the scope of your reno, do you really need an architect or even expediter? Every building has different rules.

If you redid your floors, changed your cabs, installed vanities, but don't change the position of any plumbing, just new fixtures - you may not need to go to the DOB if your building is okay with that. That's a huge savings right there.

And if your architect has to merely produce drawings to the satisfaction of your building mgmt/board, there is no reason he/she should be charging you 15%.

Yes agreed- if you fork over $50k for a designer and then still have to do a lot of work yourself then its not worth it.

The designers job should include: drawings, finding the architect, GC, picking everything out and coordinating and making sure the job gets done the way its supposed to.

By hiring a designer, you shouldnt have to do anything except approve the drawings and the finishes and get an updated timeframe from the designer on when its all going to be done.

Best advice here is compliments of drdrd and nyc10023. I can never understand why people are so eager to throw themselves at the mercy of designers and architects. Start small Lania... hire the maintenance staff for painting. If you like them and they seem competent see if they are interested in helping with other projects. You need a "remodel" not a renovation. I guarantee you would be amazed what can be accomplished with 50K.

Crown molding makes a huge difference in a post war. Makes the ceilings seem higher and the rooms less boxy. Don't know about a true minimum height ceiling, mine is a little higher but crown molding is well worth the investment.

Lania, thank you for the added info. What you propose is far from a gut level renovation. It really is more of a remodel. Sounds like there is virtually no demo to be done other than bit in baths and the kitchen. Erecting a wall is not that big a deal but may trigger a permit requirement--not sure, it isn't an area I know about. Electrical work is expensive but proper lighting and sufficient outlets etc really make a place nicer to live in. If you decide to do electrical, price what it costs to wire for surround sound speakers for the TV. Forget audiophile--the surround sound without exposed wires is really nice. Crowns are inexpensive--installing them costs money because it is hard to do it well. Use MDF material versus wood to minimize cracking as seasons change. In post-war, keep then VERY simple and proportionate (smaller side for low ceilings). Nice baseboards make a huge difference and are worth the money. Don't bother with new appliances; they'll look old in 7-10 years and you'll never get your money back. Buyers like cutsom cabinets--that's something I'd spend money on in the kitchen. Your budget for baths and kitchen sounds very reasonable and conservative. If the floors are salvagable, definitely just refinish them.

Practical matters: I don't know what your schedule is for renovation, or how long you want to stay out of your apt. My advice: do the things that absolutely need to be done before you move in, and schedule the others (if you and your family can live around the mess) after you move in. There is a great deal to be said for onsite management of the job.

Things that have to be done before you move in:
1) New floor. You mentioned postwar, but you didn't say what you were replacing your floors with. Some postwar buildings don't have adequate subflooring to support finished-in-place hardwood floors (my #1 preference for flooring). You need to investigate. So rip out existing baseboards, remove popcorn ceiling, install new floor. You should not need to file with the DOB for this, but you do need to check with your board/mgmt as to what is needed for the job. In many less strict postwar co-ops (even ones with doormen), they are not strict with the reqs. for this kind of work. And they often have a preferred floor installer - you may want to to with that co. to save hassle. Install mouldings too, before you move in.

2) I assume that any electrical work would be running new outlets or just changing receptacles - all fine to do after you move in, unless you have young children underfoot you are worried about. Again, ask management/board if there is someone they recommend.

You have 2 baths & a functioning kitchen, and it doesn't sounds like you are tearing down interior walls (except to install tile, and perhaps in the kitchen). So no messy demo other than mentioned above. Unless it is imperative to have both baths and fully functioning K at all times/young children around, I highly recommend putting as much furniture and stuff in storage and actually living there through the renovation.

There will be a LOT less slacking off by contractors, you will be on top of things, and also, gets you a better idea of what you want.

Another thing to consider - you say that your dream apt is a prewar with details. What if that apt came up in the next 2 years? You don't want to have sunk in $200k into a 1400 sqft apt. Really, you don't. If the floors are horrible, take this chance to redo them. That is not a big ticket item, all things considered, and is a headache many people don't want to deal with. Maybe do the more horrible bathroom. Take your time thinking about the kitchen.

Am looking to do some minor kitchen work - have some hollow space behind the side backsplash wall that could be used as a nook for microwave, shelving, and added depth to lower-level cabinets. Anyone have any recommendations on where to go for that kind of job?

it's great to log in and see so many helpful comments! thanks to everyone who posted.

the floors are parquet but in really bad shape and thin - i.e. look to have been sanded down to nothing already and don't think they will take another sanding. so that pretty much has to happen.

i get the points about living there while renovating and that would save me the modest rent i'm paying now, but i am super sensitive to dust and paint smells so might opt to stay here.

i think it will be completely possible not to have to change the position of bathroom or kitchen fixtures. what i understand from what nyc10023 wrote, this means no dob? that would be a nice surprise. i thought i had read elsewhere somewhere that anything you do to a bathroom or kitchen triggers dob b/c old doorways are too narrow to meet code, so at a minimum the doorways must be widened? if not, even better.

sounds like the consensus is crown mouldings are worth the $$ as are nice baseboards. (someone, please, how much per linear foot installed?)

kylewest, when you talk about custom kitchen cabinets, the cabinets in there now were custom-done, the shelves all pull out nicely, they go to the ceiling, and were truly fitted to that room. they are just banged up beyond salvaging (the previous residents' children look like they rode their tricycles into them, repeatedly.) that's one reason i thought i might be able to put some really nice doors on them, then some nice countertops & backsplashes and a new, deeper sink w/ a cool faucet.

i can't tell you all how valuable this forum is - thanks for all the comments and keep them coming. it helps to write down the pros and cons and see other people's take. i like the idea of not replacing the appliances b/c the ones there really are quite nice and it just seems wasteful. however, i know other apts in the bldg have subzero, wolff, thermador, etc. whereas these are GE. but they are stainless and look fine and probably perform more than adequately for me.

Lania - it all depends on your co-op(?)/condo policies. I have lived in 2 postwar (doorman) co-ops, neither required DOB permits to renovate as long as no fixtures are moved. You have to ask them, and also ask if they have any preferred cos. for plumbing/electrical work. You are not enlarging bathroom square footage, right? Or moving doors?

I lived in yet another condo, where tenants did the kind of kitchen reno you are thinking of (new doors, sink, faucet, countertop, and removal of some drywall to create pass-through) w/o filing with DOB and this was
completely legit with condo management/board.

This is independent of what may be considered legal/illegal by the DOB - but I would follow building policy first.

One thing that you may want to look into is to find the carpenter or shop who did the cabs, you may end up saving a lot of money if all you want to do is replace the doors, and you go with the shop that did teh job.

As for ADA reqs in NYC, please see the last answer in this column:

http://nysarch.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=28&Itemid=57

nyc10023 - excellent link, thanks! will bear this in mind and try to make a point to avoid the dob.

i'm not enlarging sq footage of baths or kitchen. however, the kitchen has two doors and i want to close one off - it is in a weird spot in a hallway and doesn't really go anywhere.

good idea to find out about the original cabinet makers - i can ask the broker to ask the seller if she remembers. they are pretty old (15+ years) but worth a shot to find that company.

If you can get your hands on 27-126 of the city building code, I believe that repair (including replacement) of bathroom fixtures does not require a plumbing permit. I am less sure about demolition of the walls & replacement with new cement board for tiling but I can tell you that numerous co-ops do not expect you to file for a permit in this situation.

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hi lania,
From your description, either an architect or designer can do all of that for you. Its not likely that you'll need to hire both. Architects do design and they can stamp the drawings if your board asks to file. An interior designer, however would be more helpful for you if you need a lot of help with drapes, upholstery etc. Your first step should be to get the renovation guidelines from your board and finding out what their approval requirements are.

Your budget is tight so from experience, I would suggest keeping plumbing fixtures in the same locations and not moving a lot of walls if your existing layout works for you. (Walls can contain stuff like pipes and conduits and rerouting these adds to cost, leaving less $ for the nice materials) If you like spreadsheets, you should go room by room and list every item and scope that you would like done down to the toilet paper holders, doors stops etc. and assign a cost to them. The stuff adds up quickly.

As for moldings, baseboards are always a good investment, cost would depend on whether it is paint grade or stain grade and how elaborate the profile is. I would think really hard about crown moldings because unless you have high ceilings, the proportions dont work out in most post war apartments.