Forte Rebooted!

Another contact with the broker - supposedly more deals are coming through. We might make the move but I just hope we are not being suckered.

toby, once you have an accepted offer, your attorney can find out how many apts are in contract. They won't lie to your attorney. You could still back out before you sign the contract if you find out they were being dishonest.

I'm not sure how much comfort that is. People clearly lie to lawyers all the time - it's no more actionable than lying to a layperson who relies on what you say.

A lawyer faced with the question would ask for diligence materials, like copies of the executed contracts and bank statements from the escrow agent reflecting amounts on deposit. Without those documents, your lawyer can be no more comfortable than you are that the brokers are telling the truth.

A better way to deal with the issue would be to put something in the contract to deal with it. For instance, if you think the apartment is worth X assuming everything the broker tells you is true but only 0.75X if it's not true, then the agreement should say you pay 0.75X at closing and the remaining 0.25X only after the other deals close at the prices the broker indicated.

I don't think it is this easy to put such restrictions in the contract. According to the broker, supposedly the bank lowered prices enough to sell the units quickly without any time wasted on negotiation. With the increased activity, it seems the sellers have the upperhand and are not negotiating. Anyone negotiating on a unit at Forte? would you mind sharing what you are going through?

Well think about it this way, Tobytoby: The sponsor has all the information on these alleged other sales, including what the prices are and whether they actually exist or not. If the sponsor's not willing to take the risk that these other alleged sales actually close, then why should you?

This should be a negotiation that takes 5 minutes. It's zero cost to them if what they're telling you is true. If they say "no", you can be pretty confident that none of these sales exist, and it's all hype.

What about negotiating transfer taxes, etc?

I am negotiating. Looks like transfer taxes and attorney's fees are all you can get right now - we started a bit below the ask (3% or so). Frankly that still seems pretty reasonable. The prices are low so why expect further negotiations. They might be more willing to cut deals as the process continues, but the better units will likely be gone at that point.

Post87deflation - no seller would ever agree to those terms. But, brokers really are not allowed to lie about things such as other units in contract. In theory you could sue them if it proved not to be true, although no idea what damages would be.

The prices are not that low, for an area with so much excess inventory, so underserviced by retail. Forté is out ahead of a falling market, but I'm very confident the bottom will be lower than $400/sf.

That might be the case. Who really knows - I never thought I would be able to potentially get a place in the area for this little. But forte is the lowest priced currently by a long shot.

As long as your going into it with eyes wide open. I would suggest, though, that you imagine to yourself what you would have though in 1999 or 2002 if someone said condos in Downtown Brooklyn would go for $400/sf. You probably would have said "Sure, maybe 30 years from now."

Strangely enough I lived in a new construction rental in downtown brooklyn ten years ago. It was not as cheap as you might think.

> Have you really been some where else for awhile and haven't cought up with the current market?

No, we're just talking about different buildings.
The edge is averaging over $900 psf asking....

Anybody really think more than 2x is warranted?

good luck toby and tim - please keep us posted! i also think the prices are really cheap for that neighborhood and worth it. as for the legal stuff get your lawyers to try and find out what is going on. I have been trying to find a place there for a year now and everything is way above anything i could dream of affording. i did make a bid on forte but never heard back ...guess i bid to low...

toby and tim - as far as i hear there is zero negotiations going on with these prices correct?
they want fulla sking of the slashed prices and are willing to pay closing costs. is this what your experience has been?

Ok. We put an offer down and now waiting for a rep.y. Based on the broker, everything from the 20th floor and above is gone except for a couple of units on the C line. The way we look at it is - They have the lowest prices we've seen in the area. We like Hanson for the quality of the building but they are about $150/sf more and none of the units have a nice view. We don't think it is worth the extra cost.
We also like Forte's area a little more - it is farther away from the mall and the Atlantic Centre arena to be built but at the same time close enough to do our shopping and so on.
We will buy at around $500/sqf and if prices go down some more, then be it. It is a place that we are buying for the long run and I am sure the value will be much higher in the long run.

I agree with you Toby - at these prices they are the cheapest in the area and they are nice little places. They have a lot of room, washer and dryers, good closets, decent kitchens, nice views and light. I think the location is fantastic. I hope you re right that the value will be much higher in the long run.

Good luck, Toby & Timon!

Not the move I would make just yet but I guess you pays your money and you takes your chances. If all this broker hype is true then 1HP must be freaking out about all the potential buyers they just lost.

Hey Post87: What kinda info do you have on 1HP? Any insights on $psf, current sales and quality at 1HP compared to Forte? Which location do you think is more desirable of the two?

1HP is only 2 blocks from Forté, so it's hard to say one location is much better than the other. If I had to pick I'd say Forté's location is slightly better, because it's set back from Flatbush while still being close to the subways.

I don't know anything more about 1HP than is available on StreetEasy. It looks rather nicer than Forté, but, like everything else in NYC RE these days, way over-priced.

1HP has nicer units, finishes, fixtures. More unique layouts. Some of them have weird problems like columns in the middle of the rooms or oversized master bathrooms that steal space from the rest of the apartment for no good reason. More amenities than Forte. Their prices have come down a lot but not nearly as much as Forte. I don't think 1HP's tax abatement has come through. Re location, that will depend on the individual's preferences -- there are definite pros and cons to both locations.

Tim, toby & JJ - wish you guys good luck! Plz update us if you guys succeed.
I finally got the line & floor I'm interested in. Just started the process of negotiation. Maybe we'll be neighbours. :)
I don't know if the value will be higher in the near future, but feel there's little room to go down at least.

hey guys i just heard back. the unit i wanted was taken as the person who bid on it bid the asking (i bid 10% lower). I was offered the same unit a few floors down and am going into negotiations. i was told it is asking price or nothing. they are not interested in negotiating as the prices are so low and there is a line of people who wil buy them at these prices. they are going to pay closing costs and their attorney fees. i am going to go forward because even at this asking price it is dirt cheap compared to the entire neighborhood. so maybe we will all be neighbors! ;)

as for comparing forte and 1HP - i did prefer the finishes at 1HP but i prefer the location at forte. also forte seemed a little bit more intimate because it is 100 units (compared to 1HP's 190 units). Seemed to have a community feeling inside which I didn't get at 1HP - there i felt i was in some gigantic hotel.

lets see what happens.....

That's weird: I thought they didn't accept multiple bids. They offered you a few floors down without asking you if you were willing to raise your offering price?
But you do have nerve, jj. Bidding 10% lower on top of a 40+% drop. If more buyers were like you, there shouldn't have been a RE bubble in the first place. :)

You are right they weren't accepting multiple bids but in all the madness that happened last week they made an error and had 2 bids on the same place. Since the other guy bid at the asking he got priority and there was no need for them to ask me to raise my offering price. Then I got priority on the unit lower down in the building since I had come in on one of the first days they started showing.

hahaha! i wish they had accepted the 10% lower! no harm in trying!

Hanson is definitely a better product but the location is too close to Atlantic Center to my taste. But of course, the determing factor is price difference.
Pulled out their recent sales records: $600-high 700/sf.

11/16/2009 #22A $780,000 $780,000 ↓ Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,166 ft²
11/16/2009 #10D $512,000 -6.9% $550,000 ↓ Sold 1 bed 1 bath 934 ft²
11/12/2009 #15J $810,000 -15.4% $957,757 ↓ Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,355 ft²
11/12/2009 #24B $682,500 +1.1% $675,000 ↓ Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,010 ft²
10/30/2009 #12H $945,000 $945,000 ↓ Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,475 ft²
09/29/2009 #18J $930,000 -2.1% $950,000 ↓ Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,352 ft²
09/23/2009 #13F - $572,000 Off-Market 1 bed 1 bath 722 ft²
09/23/2009 #9B $650,000 -4.6% $681,236 Sold 1.5 beds 1 bath 924 ft²
09/01/2009 #15A $575,000 -8.7% $630,000 ↓ Sold 1 bed 1.5 baths 824 ft²
08/30/2009 #15G - $819,000 ↑ Off-Market 2 beds 2 baths 1,054 ft²
08/21/2009 #22B $869,500 -12.9% $998,000 ↑ Sold 2 beds 2 baths 1,097 ft²

We just got our contract signed today. All ready to go. Can't wait to move in.
Bought based on the following: 1) Sick of wasting money on rent and happy to own a place, 2) Excellent location, 3) Amazing prices - they are by a long shot the lowest prices in the area, 4) Great building -yes finishes could be better but we are happy to spend $ to change anything to reflect our taste, and 5) high probability that prices will move higher once the dust settles. Yes prices could drop in the short term but who cares, we are not buying a place for 1 or 2 years but will be here for a while.
We are happy our contract is signed. We wish you all the best and look forward to be neighbours.

congrats george!! How exciting! When do you get to move in? I will hopefully also be moving in based on the same reasons you listed!

Congrats, George! Agree with every points you said.
Did you offer full asking? How many contracts are actually signed?

Thank you.
We move in January.
We did offer full asking. I am not sure how many contracts are actually signed but according to our broker, the majority of units from floors 20 and above have offers.
We offered full asking and we pay transfer fees and legal costs. We really think the full asking is a great deal, so why risk losing the place for some immaterial amounts.
Anyways, good luck to you.

Congrats George. We are also aiming to join you at Forte. We are waiting to hear back on our contract. We also offered full asking so hopefully we will get our unit. Keeping our fingers crossed. It is amazing how pricing is everything - Supposedly there are back up offers on some of the units on the higher floors.

you do realize that george is full of shit?

CC: None of us have no way of verifying or contradicting George's information. I say best of luck to him.

The one thing I would dispute is his opinion that the values will increase. iMho, we will see gradual decreases with maybe a few up-ticks for several years, followed by a long period of flat prices. My guess is that, after a year or so from now, it'll be at least 10 years before prices this high or above are seen again in the neighborhood.

The problem is no one has a cristal ball. Who would have predicted the stock market almost doubled this year? Everyone that needs a roof has to jump in at a price he feels comfortable with.
If Forte loses value, Toren, 1 Hanson etc will do worse. I also hope I can snap a better deal if the market is down tomorrow. But we should wish good luck to George, JJ and anyone who might have the biggest decision for investement & lifestyle.
Cheers everyone. :)

But George, I am really surprised you offered to pay transfer fees & legal costs. The broker clearly told me that the sponsor is very likely to pay closing costs. Shouldn't closing costs include the fees you mentioned?

we'll also be paying transfer fees and legal costs.

Leom: 100% agreed. I was mostly responding to CC.

My offer at full ask (with sponsor paying transfer taxes & atty's fees) was accepted. Broker says Wells Fargo is offering mortgages on the building. Can anyone confirm this mortgage situation?

When I was looking at the building back in July, a local Wells Fargo rep said they had "underwritten" the building, whatever that means. Here is his e-mail address: scott.sullivan@wellsfargo.com

This was before the transfer to Eurohypo, so I don't know whether anything has changed.

We also agreed to pay full asking and transfer taxes and legal fees. We bought one of the 3 penthouse units that were available. We knew there would be high demand for the penthouse units and we did not want to lose the unit over 10 or 20k. Later we learned that there were backup offers for the penthouse units and we would've more likely lost the unit if we had negotiated. We are very happy with our purchase and really look forward to move to Forte and start enjoying the area.
Zinka, Wells Fargo is offering mortgages on the building. Bank of America is not yet. However, based on discussion with my broker, supposedly there are enough offers now to push the building over the 50% status, which I believe would lead more banks to start offering mortgages on the building.

Smart move, George. PHA sold in feb 2008 for 1.08M. The fees do seem immaterial compared to the discount you've got. You must be the first to get to know about the price adjustment to fetch that availability. :)
There are 37 recorded sales on SE by mid 2009. They only need to add 17 in this round of sales to reach the 50% mark, which seems garanteed by the current momentum.

Thanks Leom.
I agree about the 50% mark. According to the broker, almost all units on floors 20 and above have offers on them.
We are really looking forward to move there. I think it is a great area that has lots to offer.

Does anyone know if being below floor 20 that bad?

I don't think there's anything dramatically bad about below fl 20.
Checked out fl 14 b/c it's 11 f ceiling. Sunlight is almost the same as high floors in every direction, except south side may have problem if the tall building on the parking lot ever gets built. View a bit less ideal b/c of 80 Dekalb to the north & Bkln High Tech to the east, but it's a regular difference for being 12 floors down (the models are on fl 26) in any building.

I don't think below floor 20 is bad at all. Actually met someone that lives in the C line below the 10th floor. They've been there since the building was built. They are unhappy with the turn of events for the building; however, they love their unit. They had nothing negative to say and they supposedly get light all day long and noisy as one would expect.
Nothing is wrong with floors below 20 but I think it is a just natural thing that people go for the higher floors first.

The penthouse floor in this building is very nice. The high ceilings make a huge difference. George, I think you'll be happy with your apartment.

I don't think floors below 20 are bad -- they're just not as competitively priced right now (but still a good deal). I wouldn't want to live on the very low floors facing Fulton St because of bus noise, but above say 10 should be OK.

Speaking of 14, there are issues with 14A and 14D because of their weird enclosed pillar which blocks some of the living room windows.

Anyone knows if there was an open house today?
Did anyone attend? How was the turnout?

I heard that they canceled the open house today because the response to the listings has been overwhelming and they can not accomodate more people.

Whoever called this area "fringe"...take a look at these pics and especially the last....I'd take this "fringe" area given the type of publicity this area is getting and will only get more of as the BAM area grows, over many areas any day.

http://laineygossip.com/Cate_Blanchett_arriving_at_the_Harvey_for_Streetcar_Named_Desire.aspx?CatID=0&CelID=0

I walked all over the area and maintain that it is fringe. It has potential but there is no denying it - frequent ground-level parking lots, several blocks of lonely, desolate streets devoid of retail, and where there are clusters of retail (such as around the Fulton/Flatbush intersection), it's frequently of poor quality. The Ingersoll and Whitman housing projects are a short walk away (even closer to Oro and Toren).

I think the neighborhood has a lot of potential but it's not there yet. "Fringe" is a perfectly legitimate and descriptive word for pretty much all of Downtown Brooklyn.

Crazy that you are calling the area "fringe" when brownstones in the area are selling in excess of $2 million. Regardless of fringe or not, the area is expected to keep on improving and prices will keep on moving along. We bought just to be in this area - we really didn't want to miss out on this opportunity as there are no other condos in the area to buy into. We missed out on Hanson and didn't want to miss out on this one as well.

I wonder why they have not updated the 'in contract' list.... I think those units are all great deals but this whole sales game is confusing to me, especially this board. Is it just me?

I think you have to judge a neighborhood on its own merits, not on what people have been paying to live there. This is particularly true just coming off the peak of a real estate bubble, as we are now.

Downtown Brooklyn is very similar to LIC, in that its primary benefit is that it's easy to get from there to other places. As for having a nice, walkable, livable neighborhood, neither LIC nor Downtown Brooklyn is there yet or even close. People expect great things from both neighborhoods, and I'm sure it'll happen, but it will take many years.

In the meantime, each is a place where you live with considerable grit and desolation in order to have a decent commute. Williamsburg, Park Slope, Sunnyside, even Jackson Heights are all better places to live if you intend to spend a lot of time in your own neighborhood rather than just crashing there after work. I don't mean to insult anyone of their neighborhood but it's the truth. Spend some time in each of these 6 neighborhoods and if you had to rank the livability of each one (separate and apart from the commute), I'm sure you'll agree that Downtown Brooklyn will come out #5 or #6.

Post, we checked most areas you mention but we still preferred Fort Greene. We thought Fort Greene was excellent for a young family and for its access to midtown Manhattan. Williamsburg is fun but we thought it is more for people in their early twenties and it is difficult to access midtown from there, especially in peak time. Park Slope is great but we thought it was too far from Manhattan. We didn't check Sunnyside or Jackson Heights but I am sure they are also great areas for the right people.
Your points are well taken but in reality it is all about what you want for the area and we found Fort Greene to have everything we were looking for.

I know all the for the 6 nabes Post mentioned. In my case - young family, working in Midtown, my ranking is:
1. Fort Greene: location, convenience, restaurants, park, hospital... everything is close by except a good public school (we're applying for private). Talk about spending some time in the nabe! I actually came to know "Fort Green" by my stomach, through Bati (Ethiopian), Havana outpost (Cuban), No. 7 (contemporary), Junior's (cheesecake)...
2. Park Slope: handsdown the most safe, beautiful, serene, family-friendly & healty. PS321. But my wife and I both work in (far) East Midtown, we need 4/5 trains to Grand Central. Plus, we're talking about a totally different price range.
3. Williamsburg: Fully gentrified & hip. But the L train is a headach during rush hours, need a transfer to get to Midtown. More for young creative types than families.
4. LIC: Huge potential but still in the making. Waterfront is nice but the pricing of the View is outrageous (also awckward layout). Powerhouse is nice but will be blocked on THREE sides by development imminently. The rest of the new developments are in ugly, desolated area. They've just got "1" grocery store in a Rockrose rental, "1" pharmacy (Duane Reade), "1" French Bistro (Turnesol), "1" sushi takeout, which exactly qualifies for "crashing there after work".
5. Sunnyside: Very inexpensive authentic ethnic eats along the 7 line. Close to Midtown Manhattan but you feel strangely subburban and thirdworldly. Do I need to mention the noise of the light rail, LIRR yards, miles & miles of graffiti covered abandonned warehouses with broken windows you avoid to see on 7 train from Court Sq on?
6. Jackson Heights: Ethnically rich (Indians around 74th st, Chinese & Southeast Asians in Elmhurst, Latinos everywhere); all the subway lines in Queens (except Astoria) converge here. But compared to that area surrounding the subway stations, Fulton Mall would a peacefull haven & an shopping paradise as upscale as before bust Dubai! There's no way of getting to those prewar Garden Appartments without crossing 5-10 blocks like that.

The best nabes in the outer boroughs to raise a young family priced out of prime Manhattan, in my humble opinion, are:
1. Brooklyn Heights - Proximity to Manhattan, tree lined blocks, fabulous schools, historic value. But paradoxically, the price there holds fermer than Manhattan. I've been following the market for a year. Everyweekend there are no more than 10 OH, which get in contract a month later.
A 1200 sf old 2bd 2bth coop w/o view or any amenity (maintenance $1000 something) for 800k
vs
26th floor A or C line at Forte for 600k, brand new condo, with endless open view & natural light that hurts your eyes.
Our family will have far better quality of life (at least inside the appartment) and be financially more confortable at Forte.

2. Park Slope: see my post above. There're deals around in this area b/c it's bigger and less exclusive than BH. But it's out in my case b/c I don't want a 50 mn commute to Grand Central involving a train transfer twice a day.

3. Forest Hills GARDENS(not the generic Forest Hills that covers half of Queens from Rego Park to Kew Gardens). Idyllic English garden community, great schools, crime almost unheard of, E/F express & R/V local trains to Midtown Manhattan, super low RE taxes. You can get a detached house for 1.5M in Van Court. But I don't want to take care a 80-y-o house that's empty all day (double incomer couple + full time daycare kid). Furthermore, this is Queens. Don't expect anything hip.

Paging George, JJ, Zinka, Toby & anyone who's in contract or negotiating:
Survey:
Are you guys married/single?
Do you work in Brooklyn or Downtown/Midtown Manhattan?
Anyone has kids that my son in daycare can have play day with next year? :)

I am partnered, no kids, work near Union Square.

Well good luck to you guys, and I understand each person/family picks the neighborhood that suits them best. For myself, I can't think of a neighborhood with so many ground-floor parking lots and only one supermarket as anything but fringe. It may have some nice restaurants but you have to walk through some pretty dreary blocks in order to get to them.

I grant, as leom points out, that the area enjoys a great commute, but if that were the standard we would all be living in LIC.

One last thing: I know you have to see a bunch of graffiti-covered warehouses from the 7 train on the way to Sunnyside, but those graffiti-covered warehouses are actually IN Long Island City. LIC residents may not have to look at them every day, but they do have to live with the effects of LIC's post-industrial wasteland. ;)

Married but not kid.
Work in midtown.

Post - I'm not trying to convince you to buy into Forte. Seems that even the broker doesn't care b/c they are so overbooked. But did you actually walk eastward along Fulton or Lafayette up to the G and C train stations, or northbound to the park along S. Portland, S. Oxford? You'd take it for Park Slope or UWS! The dreary blocks are mostly on the west side accross Flatbush, where I feel bustled but very safe b/c of heavy foot traffic & holiday lightings.
Despite the multiple parking lots, do you feel like cars were to crash pedestrians? My family walked around for an hour with a 4 year old and felt much more comfortable than LIC or W'burg.
Bkln hospital center is affiliated to Prebyterian (Columbia - Cornell).

My problem with parking lots is not the possibility of auto accidents. It's that they are black holes in the community. There's very little activity coming in and out of them - no retail, no businesses, no residences or entertainments. It creates for a very desolate experience for pedestrians in the neighborhood.

I circled the whole area. I agree there are some nice little corners with some yuppie-ish restaurants if you go East, but they are all separated by the dreary blocks. Definitely the stretch of Fulton from Flatbush Ave. to Fort Greene Place is not a pleasant walk, and it seemed to me that at night when the BAM Theatre and TfaNA are not having performances it would be pretty isolated and potentially unsafe.

Honestly, safety was my biggest concern beside local schools. From various sources, I've heard there are sporadic crimes, sometimes even extremely violent, though they mostly happened btwn 10pm-6am desolate streets. I do regret that I have to remind my wife & kid to use caution after dark in a nabe we're committed to live for years.
But on the short segment btwn Nevins st station & Forte, I feel very safe, b/c Fulton is a two way artery, with B25/26/38/52 buses passing by every 3 mn even on weekend. Further from Forte, Fulton & Lafayette are lined w. Crunch gym, pizza, liquor store, Chinese restaurant, party supplies, hair spa, hawa cosmetics, Deli, cleaner, pizza parlor, smoke shop (those above are all on the block btwn S. Felix & Fort Greene pl alone!), then deli, Indian cuisine, real estate office, G train station (down to S. Elliot), then smoke joint, Fresh Garden, Moon cake, Cafe Lafayette and C train station down to S. Portland ave.
Within two blocks from G station on to Lafayette ave, there are Scopello Ristorante, 67 Burger, Mullanes Bar & Grill, Stonehome wine bar, S. Portland Mkt... Tired of transcripting from Google map b/c there are so inumerable within a couple of blocks.

What's your criteria for "no retail, no businesses, no residences or entertainments/dreary blocks"?
I'd say the density of small businesses in the surroundings is equal to East Village.
If I were a criminal, I wouldn't think I could commit a murder or rape without being caught immediately. :)
That said, if I move in, I'd limit the geographical & chronometric radius of my activities during the introductory period.

Some of those Google listings are outdated, and most are more than a block away. Crunch takes up one side of an entire block and only the one entrance will get any foot traffic. Across from Crunch you have another parking lot. It's almost like having nothing.

On the immediate block with Forté there is only BAM on the one side (plus Forté's own commercial space which will hopefully house a decent restaurant) and a parking lot (which will eventually be TfaNA).

Yes, much of the Lower East Side is still pretty gritty. I would say Sunnyside and Jackson Heights are both better serviced by retail and seem safer to me, with more foot traffic and eyes on the street. Sunnyside particularly if you're talking about the triangle between Queens Blvd, Greenpoint Ave and 39th street. I don't know whether that is borne out in the crime statistics but I'd be happy to be educated.

Anyway, if enough of those condos fill up, then over the years the retail will come and the neighborhood will improve. But it's definitely a fixer-upper, and the fixing up will take longer because of the recession. To get back to my original point, that is usually what people mean when they talk about "fringe" neighborhoods.

Post - this is getting comical. Fort Greene is less desirable than Sunnyside and Jacksone Heights! The two blocks immediately surrounding Forte are not great (although definitely safe unless you are paranoid) but 200 meters away is the Fulton/Lafayette intersection which is practically the heart of fort greene.

Also, I often walk by those google listings and they seem pretty accurate from what I can tell.

Agree with Tim. Who would compare Fort Greene w. Sunnyside or Jackson Heights? Even Astoria doesn't belong to the category: LIC, W'burg, Fort Greene, Park Slope.
I recall there's an agency specialized in Jackson Heights historic garden apartments. Their slogan on the top of the website is: Jackson Heights - Half Price of Brooklyn!
Funny selling point.

Anyone attend the open house this weekend? How was the turnout?

why do you keep asking the same question?

I was mostly responding to Leom's question as to what density of retail I consider nice. Granted, when you factor the commute into the equation most people would rank the neighborhood as you suggest, but if you don't count commute I still think Sunnyside is way more livable than Downtown Brooklyn.

Perhaps I am a little paranoid, but I know I'm not the only one who thinks that that walk along Fulton is pretty desolate, particularly at night.

post, I agree with you. Just not a neighborhood I could feel comfortable with me wife walking home from the subway alone at night. Too desolate, too dark, too many questionable streets or portions of streets.

Welcome to this board, Gator. :)
I've never denied Fort Greene is less elegant than BH, less charming than Park Slope, a longer communte to Midtown than LIC, or even less safe than W'burg. But the difference is not that huge as to justify paying (currently) 40% more in a comparable building in the other four nabes. We're talking about quality/price ratio.
If I had 1.5M to buy a new condo in prime Manhattan, I wouldn't need to cross the river at all!
The walk along Fulton is not the nicest, granted. But do I feel unsafe to cover the 0.1 mile/1.5 short blocks btwn Nevins st and Forte, on a two way artery with buses passing by every 2 mn and with the holiday lighting on Fulton Mall glittering behind me? Absolutely not. A little bit edgyness is just NY.

80 Dekalb starts renting on Dec. 1, Avalon Fort Greene/Oro/Toren/1 Hanson all need to fill up. Let's say they all stay half empty, a 50% occupancy in each will add about a population of 1 000 (!) mostly energetic, creative young professionals to the area. I can hardly see the businesses (retails/restaurants/entertainments) don't want to open up and make money out of them. :)

BAM doesn't build, we'll keep the unobstructed view & sunshine for years. BAM builds, we'll get Enrique Norten, Frank Ghery architecture, larger local population, improved safety and retails.

Investment-wise, I guess Forte at least has less room to go down: give a -20% on the current $478/sf, it would be $382/sf. Anyone is calling a $300-350/sf very likely even if the economy double dips?. What loss 1BBP, Oro and Toren would take in that case?

BTW, guys, anyone can recommend an attorney that's professional & familiar with Fort Greene/Forte?
The sponsor has accepted my offer in quite favorable terms. May be forging ahead soon.

Hey Leom,
My attorney is James Westmoreland. You can reach him at 718-783-6967. His email address is: ripleyw@mac.com.
James is already working on two deals (mine and my friend's) at Forte. He knows the area and building well and he is very reachable. Very pleasant to deal with - highly recommended.
Good luck.

congrats leom were you able to negotiate at all? or did you agree to the asking of the new low prices?
also i am partnered, no kids, but tons of friends in the nab with kids for play day!

george i was told contracts are not going out until wednesday? did you and your friend already get yours?

Hey JJ,
Yes we both got our contracts. Mine has already been signed by the sponsor and my friend's should be signed any day.

George - Thx for your recommendation.
JJ - They gave me a tini tiny discount off the new asking, which is a nice surprise.

leom, your point is well taken regarding quality/price ratio. Hell I'll admit that the new prices at Forte had me looking at it again, albeit briefly. And I also agree that in coming years the nabe will improve, but I do think that given current economic times it may take longer originally thought. I do see the investment potential in the area, but as we've discussed many times a home is more than an investment (and many would say not much of an investment anyway).

Good luck with Forte leom, I hope it works out fantasticly for you and everyone else. For me, you know what has my eye ;) particularly now that the City appears to be coming up with $55 million in funding.

Thx for your blessing, Gator. I also hope works on the piers will keep apace and you guys will have an amazing waterfront.
Isn't line 10 that has your eye? My wife likes it a lot on a higher fl. We finally decided on 18 line over it, which costs 200k more but has a harbor view. But I've heard 718, 818 and 918 are all taken. Just when we're wondering, Forte slashed price by 30-40%. Then... we are where we are. :)
At this moment, Forte seems to have the least uncertainty: 70% sold easily reached w. most purchasers planning to move in imminently, further price chop less likely (maybe on the last couple of low floors that remain unsold after this round of frenzy, but that doesn't count), comparable rentals in this area higher than monthly carrying cost, and no distrust on the developper b/c they already went belly up! ;)

Just a friendly reminder to all those who are excited about Forte...don't forget to factor in the insanely high common charges, especially A and C lines, and all the development slated around it comprising of tall buildings which can take away the current views. (just like the gigantic 80Dekalb has come up which didn't exist a year ago!).

Common charges aren't insanely high. They're about 80 cents per square foot, right? That seems fairly standard for a doorman building.

I agree with Zinka. We have been looking for a place for the past year. In comparison to other developments we looked at, Forte has some pretty reasonable common charges.
With regards to future developments - I actually can't wait till that happens because that means more gentrification of the area and an increase in the value of our units. Can't wait.

Standard for new condo should be 0.8-1.3/sf. 1BBP is 1.3, Toren just revised theirs 10-15% up.

leom, I have CC's at Forte at .83 and OBBP at .915. How do you get 1.3?

And yes I'm looking at the 10 line on a higher floor. I was considering 618 but couldn't justify the difference in price, but I did love the view!!!

Sorry, I didn't make it clear. Should be cc RE taxes/sf.

710 at 1BBP has 1400 sf:
cc $1325 (that's your 0.915)
taxes: $370 (extra 0.265)
Total: >1.2

3A (11 inch high ceiling) in Forte has a similar sf
cc $983
taxes: $54
Total: >0.7
This ratio may increase on a much higher but never tops 0.9

"cc RE taxes/sf" should be "cc + RE taxes/sf"
"on a much higher" -> "on a much higher floor"

over $0.80 psf CC is a lot for a building over 100 units with just a doorman, gym and common rooftop. Don't compare 1BBP or other buildings that have a lot more amenities. Even 1HP, which has a lot more amenities, has lower CC psf compared to Forte. As one of the bloggers mentioned, there was even an article I believe at some point talking about the high CC of Forte.

george12: Enjoy the view while it lasts! ;) ... anyways, if you feel good about it and not buying it for the current views, then that's great, good for you.

Exactly b/c Forte doesn't have many amenities people only want in lush times, I don't see the maintenance will be further revised upward.
Those amenities laden buildings are fishy in this regard. The sponsor has interest in keeping it low b/c he is paying for hundreds of unsold units every month. Once he gets out or goes belly up, who knows?

My friend bought in a luxury condo in Midtown three years ago, the promises were generous to the new tenants: free breakfast, free party room, etc. 6 months later, the breakfast was terminated b/c management alleged tenants bringing guests to take advantage. 9 months later, we had to cancel a reservation of the party room booked months ago b/c the board started to charge $500 per event.

leom, you have to compare CCs straight up as adding the taxes colors the equation. Different buildings have different abatemnents/exemptions. For example, the taxes are higher at OBBP, but the exemption and abatement last longer than at Forte. When you compare the CCs straight up the difference is quite small as my numbers indicate and for that you get a LOT more amenities than Forte.

BJ, the view will last and we'll enjoy it for a long time. Our view could get blocked on one side but we will always have a good view as the lots across the street fall within an area that is zone protected. Can't wait to move in and start enjoying the area, including the park.

perhaps the common charges are so high at the Forte in order to accommodate cleaning those windows?
;)

the cc's are quite intimidating i must say....why why why is it so high? and imagine how high its going to be in a year or two....

does anyone know what happens to the lotline windows (i believe A and D lines on higher floors) if a tall building goes up in the future on the neighboring property? does each affected condo owner have to pay to block up the windows to create a fire-rated wall at the lotline or is this covered some other way (i.e. common charges shared by the whole building)?
related to this, what would be the as-of-right F.A.R. build-out height be on neighboring properties?

JJ1918, I am assuming they turned your offer down. Not surprised. These guys supposedly have back up offers and are not negotiating much for units on the higher floors.
Regarding the CC's, based on our research, they are in line with CC's at developments similar to Forte. If you want lower CC's, I am assuming units on the lower floors have lower charges. Did you check into that?

george i love your fearless attitude about the building!

they accepted my offer but i am feeling really worried about the high cc's now and am having second thoughts....
this would be my first home and i am new to real estate so the idea that it would cost me 55,000K in common charges over a 5 year period is rather intimidating. And on top of that there is the mortgage, bills (electric, heat etc), taxes, etc. The common charges do seem extremely high to me, I worry that if in 10 years with the high common charges and high taxes if i would even be able to resell it....
but yes agreed at these prices they are not negotiating anything. the bid they accepted from me was at asking.

Good question about the lot line windows...do we have to pay to block them?

Hi jiji - Your concern is legitimate. I'm not defending Forte's cc b/c, first of all, for a potential future tenant (that's me), the lower the better.
Admitted that current cc are not super low, taking into account there's few amenities. My guess is:
1. The price you have to pay for intimacy. Fewer units have to carry a bigger share for anything. All the other new developments have 3-4 times units Forte's.
2. No matter how barebone a buidling is, there's minimum service, such as trash, mail, elevator, maintenance for plombing & heating, that costs money.

For your reference, I checked out this one two months ago. It's a condo, no doorman, even no live-in super, there's no amenities whatsoever. But a 1003sf apt still carry a $600 cc.
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/452568-condo-137-east-13th-street-east-village-new-york

Here's another comp about 2 buildings 5 blocks away from each other in Midtown East that I had considered buying:
1. 303 E 43rd: When I first toured Forte, I was stuck by its similarity to "Int'l Plaza". The latter has 29 floors, 3 units (but bigger sq footage) on each, windowed hallway near the elevator bank, just one concierge in a cosy lobby, no gym, no roofdeck.
A 1bd at 942sf has cc $724, ratio: 0.8/sf
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/395377-condo-303-east-43rd-street-murray-hill-new-york

2. 330 E 38th: Corinthian seems more like OBBP or Toren to me. Outside, a striking structure; inside, all the facilities one can think of: 12,000 square foot private health club and spa available with 50 foot glass enclosed year round pool; private, landscaped, outdoor jogging track; and on-site, fully attended, 24 hour garage service.
A 903sf 1bd carries $630 cc, ratio: 0.7/sf
http://streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/481056-condo-330-east-38th-street-murray-hill-new-york

Both buildings are well run. The only reason for a amenity-ladened Corinthian to have lower cc is it harbors 800 or so units. That's the economy of scale.

While I was impressed by the outdoor jogging track in Corinthian, I hated the endless greyish corridor. I smelt different odors(cooking & others) passing by each unit on the same fl, saw their newpapers & menus deivered under the door, heard doors being opened/closed & the "bing" of elevator as tenants getting in & out.
Excuse me if I am exaggerating a bit. But I'm living in a 2 units per fl loft building. My neighbor and I are at the opposite ends of the hallway. Except he hosts big party, I feel like that unit doesn't exist at all. So much privacy & quietness, which is priceless in NY. I also hate to spend another 5 mn to reach my own front door after stepping into the lobby.

wow! thanks leom for all these links and information! Corinthian sounds really scary to me. you are right that privacy and quietness is priceless in nyc.

anyone know what the taxes are at Forte without tax abatement? How can I find that out?