How picky are buyers when buying an apartment?

First of all, methinks many buyers are first-time buyers and they are more skittish than they would be in a more normal economic climate.

{Manhattan real estate agent.}

lobster, i think some of it has to do with how much choice you might have. would you prefer 1500sf but you know you could tolerate 1200, for example? would you prefer renovated, but are willing to tolerate the pain if the right property came up? do you need to move NOW, or do you have the luxury of time?

my broker wouldn't have a clue how many apartments i've seen, because i've always done open houses on my own, and only tell him about the ones i wish to revisit.

Hi Lobster. We're pretty picky. I am not a first time buyer and not skittish as fluter suspects, but we're looking for a family-sized apartment where our family of 4 can grow comfortably. Now that my kids are settled in school I'm not planning to flip or sell the apartment for at least 10 years so I really do want the perfect place for us. I'm looking in the 3-4M range, where there is not much movement. I don't know what's going on with the 1 BRs.

Mack123, I'm glad that you're not annoyed that I incorporated your name into my comments, but I know from reading your comments on the board that you are also looking for an apartment.

aboutready, I think that what you write is very true. There's a certain degree of variety in my price range (1.5M and under) in terms of square footage and in what condition the apartment is in. Also do you call up seller's brokers to see an apartment on your own or do you only see non-open house apartments with your own broker when you're seeing that apartment for the first time?

no, i use my broker to make appointments for viewings, but i try to see as many as possible via open house first. i like to see a lot and i don't want to waste my broker's time. but if we are looking at units in a given neighborhood and there is a unit i haven't been able to see via open house i'll go see it with him the first time.

does that make sense?

I find it runs the gamut, recently went to contract with a customer who looked at 95 units over the course of about 7 months. As AR points out her broker hears about the units she likes. This is a perfect scenario for our unbundled commission structure, in this case my buyer is getting a rebate of 50% of my commission at closing. Everyone is happy....I don't get frustrated with a "picky" customer and they don't feel like they are doing all the heavy lifting and I'm getting paid for it.

Lobster, viewing an apartment with the seller's broker without your broker in tow can cause some ugly difficulties about sharing commissions & may actually queer the deal on the unit so be sure to make very clear that you do have a buyer's broker; the first words out of your mouth, a t-shirt proclaiming the fact, maybe, but it can get UGLY. I've not had that experience but I've been a StreetEasier for a long time.

It is important to let "your" broker schedule appointments and to always sign your broker in at an open house if he/she is not with you.

AR - If you go to open houses on your own, do you sign "your" broker in, as KeithB suggests?

It's a good question, lobster. I'd say I'm extremely picky. We know what we want and have specific criteria with regards to views, size and location, etc. We've seen several places that basically fit the bill but none have felt like 'it'. So we're continuing to take our time until the right thing comes along.

In a way it reminds me of shopping for a wedding dress--they're all beautiful and look great on you but then suddenly you try something on and just know it's the 'one'.

Squid, that's a good way to view an apartment search. I do remember having that feeling when I found my wedding dress. Thanks.

murray, yes, always. even now when i'm not seriously looking. he's called me up in the past to see if i'm back in the hunt because a broker called him to tell him i really seemed to like an apartment. i told him he'll be the first to know (third, actually, after the family members) if and when i decide to get serious. it's a testament to how much i enjoy working with him that i don't ditch him for keith, because that model is perfect for me as a buyer.

lobster - do you feel that b/c you've been looking since may you're being picky, maybe too picky? if it makes you feel any better, I spent over 7 months looking for our rental (open houses, etc..). When it comes time to buy, I'm certain it will take lots... of.... time....

I think this is really a personality thing and a "how serious is your intent to move" thing. When I bought my first apartment, Gil Neary, the man I now work for, showed me two apartments. When I bought my second apartment we saw either four or five places. When I bought the beach house, it was less than ten.

So I really think you ought to be able to do it in ten. Your broker wants to get rid of you, and is showing you the best things first, and it's not like there's that many flavors of inventory. (For example, name a nineties condo). If you don't like the first five places you see, your broker ought to pick up enough change signals to get you to a good second five.

That said, when hubby and I bought (he was a first-time buyer) we looked at dozens of places in different neighborhoods, and had to lose a place to another bidder before we got "serious." His shopping personality is very different from mine, and among other things, it's tougher with two people.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

uwsmom, yes, I was thinking that I'm too picky. I do feel better knowing that you took 7 months to choose your rental apartment. Thanks.

I think housing anywhere is largely about tradeoffs, and Manhattan is the land of extreme housing tradeoffs. So what you want never exists, and you're actually spending that time learning on a micro level what weight to give each little microfactor.

The only thing really changing is the pricing part of it, and in certain years the sheer unavailability of inventory.

The wedding dresses are all the same -- they're for your mother's happiness, not yours.

7 months is nothing if you're looking for your forever place and you have no need to move. Lobster: it sounds like you have no urgent need to move, so why rush? In the present market, I would suggest not even going to look at buildings that you don't like - if price hasn't moved you before, why would it now? Just look in buildings and locations that you don't have to compromise on. As for price, either the market will come to you or it won't. If it doesn't, then you have to decide if owning is all that important to you.

Wedding dresses are NOT all the same.

I just re-read your first post. First of, instead of narrowing down apts by price range, it might be less frustrating to narrow in on the buildings you love and the apt lines you like. Or focus on a must-have.

alan, getting your wedding dress is a once in a lifetime (hopefully) experience. It really is special.
In your own apartment search, what were the most important microfactors?

If i'm going to spend millions on a place, you better believe i'm going to look at everthing within my criteria, twice. i can't imagine making a decision before i see what's out there, get a REALLY good feel for the market (at that time), and in my mind, exhaust all my options.

LOL 10023 - was going to post, "wedding dresses are NOT all beautiful!", but you do often go back to the first one you really liked. i think this happens with RE too (sometimes).

I didn't buy a premade dress - I stumbled upon a shop that did custom stuff in a style I liked. Hmm, that's analogous to my RE experience in Manhattan - never found anything "ready made" I liked, so I've inflicted on myself 3 "gut" renos so far.

For me, the most important things were location, size & "resellability" the 3rd time around.

nyc10023, first, does the custom shop make all types of special occasion dresses or is limited to making custom wedding dresses? I need a dress for my niece's bas mitzvah which is why I'm asking and I can't find anything I like. Second, when you mention your most important factors, what do you think defines an apartment being easily resellable? In my own case, I'm not buying in order to quickly resell, but I'm just wondering in general. Thanks.

hmmm. i bought one and hacked 1/3 off. i hope the same does not apply to my future manhattan home.

Okay, so I was channeling ExpertMatt about wedding dresses. Sue me. But for the sake of accuracy, I didn't say "wedding dresses are all the same" ... I said "the wedding dresses are all the same", meaning the ones that you bother to try on. Of course, the correct one is the simple, tight-fitting white minidress with tall white go-go boots that might friend wore to her wedding.

lobster, I didn't really have an apartment search as such ... things just happen. But my criteria was another key factor in many people's searches: they want what they don't currently have, and forget how much they like what they currently have. For my first apartment purchase, that meant an elevator and a large kitchen; the beautiful view, w/d and storage unit didn't hurt. For my next apartment, outdoor space and a big, open view were the features I didn't have in my previous apartment.

Sometimes you don't know what you want until it hits you in the face. That may mean many months of open houses looking at a broad spectrum of different properties.

Did I go out searching for a 2br mid-80's construction penthouse with terrace in a prime UWS pre-war co-op with central air, giant skylights, 2 full en suites, w/d, in neglected condition for under 1M? Nope.

Spin, under 1M, that is impressive.

What might be perceived as picky could actually be careful buyers trying to gather data points in a tricky real estate market (what market is more complicated than NYC with its variety of neighborhoods, neighborhood perceptions, building types; transportation, exposure, noise, re-sale, maintenance/common charge issues,etc?) Even if a buyer has lived here a long time, the market changes dramatically over short periods of time. The amount of money people spend on apartments probably is seen as ridiculous/embarrassing/obscene outside New York City. A certain amount of buyers remorse is natural with any big ticket item but a careful decision based on market "comparables" can give consolation/rationalization. (I put comparables in quotes because very few apts seem like each other; even in the same building there is always a difference in exposure, view, floor plan, condition, etc that is hard to value in dollar amount.)
I have a list of things I would like in an apartment, but the more apartments I see, the more I realize where I prioritize the things on that list in relation to how much money we are willing to spend on a place. I also learn about features I hadn't considered before. I think knowing what's available and seeing the correlation between asking prices and actual sales prices is also helpful in knowing what would be a good value for us and gives us an idea of what kind of offer to make.
I think maybe we are not typical buyers, but that is OK with me. We are hoping this is the last apartment we buy.

Thanks slgslc for your very helpful and thoughtful advice to buyers including myself.

Lobster: dress shop was not in NYC. What's "resellable"? Anything at the right price. But to sell fast, you need:

1) Good layout - precludes a lot of the wacky combinations you see, and now in a falling market, those are having a hard time selling (back to A+B=A+B instead of A+B=A+B+huge premium).
2) Light - we'd all like killer views & light, but I find that across the board, light is a minimum. Dark apts have a very hard time selling
3) Well-maintained, neutral decor - if you're never going to leave, that's one thing, but basic maintenance (regular paint jobs, repairs) & a neutral decor that someone can easily change is key.
4) Mtce/carrying charges/taxes - in line with the average, whatever that is, for its peers.
5) Some degree of uniqueness - that's why I've become so anti post-war 2/2. There is just way more inventory of hohum postwar apts at any given time in the market. Spin has a pretty unique (in a good way) apt, for example.

What '23 said.. (and thanks for the plug)

I would also suggest scanning the sold listings in your category for anything that has moved within a few months of initial list and see what attributes they all share. I've moved enough to rank re-sell ability, right behind gut feel, followed closely by "what have all the other potential buyers missed." The last one suggests you might need to get your hands dirty.

pretty freakin picky. It's a huge chunk o change, not matter one's price range.

spin- what had "all the other potential buyers missed" in your apartment?

I was really picky! Its such an important decision. I sold a place downtown and moved into a rental because I couldn't find anything I wanted and my price was under $1 mil, which anywhere else in the country would easily buy you something very impressive--not here unfortunately. I had a list of criteria and in the end the winner was a spectacular view! Direct unobstructed hudson river views from every single window in the apt. In order to get that I had to:
1. Renovate the entire apt top to bottom
2. Move futher uptown than I initially wanted to (but now I LOVE the new neighborhood--Riverside Drive, just below Columbia University
3. Buy a co-op, initally only considered condos
4. The building has an old fashion elevator operator/doorman (whihc I;ve decided is charming
5. Not quite as large as I wanted about 800sf one bedroom
6. The entrance is behind a fire door not in the main hallway( which now is one of the things i like the best as the hallyway is really nicely kept and old art deco style, not to mention an extra layer of quietness

But now that its almost complete (hoping to move in in about 2 weeks--I think its amazing and every time I walk in and see that forever view--I smile and know I made the right choice!

Its a HUGE decision, wait until youi find the right place--you'll know it

I also stuck with my broker through the entire process. He is a great guy and very patient--we had (have) a great relationship and it paid off for both of us in the end

Murray888 - mostly it amounted to condition, which was f-ugly with a capital F U. But what I saw were very unique architectural elements that couldn't be recreated at any cost -imagine a 16" square window at chest height set into a 18" thick parapet wall at the end of a bathroom vanity, or four 5x5 skylights at 16' high, working fireplace, overgrown terrace. The key thing was it was 80's construction, which means newer electrical and plumbing and sheetrock construction. Floors were good but it was hard to see under the carpet etc etc... I'm sure most thought they were in for a 200k +++ reno, which is far from the case.

See other old thread re: If you can't have it all -

spin - does elevator go to your floor? And, does the coop take responsibility for the skylights, leaks from terrace?

spin- asking because these questions might have affected how other prospective purchasers viewed the apartment (aside from the F-ugly aspect)

ph41 - Elevator is right outside my door -actually I have two passenger elevators at my disposal. The other is at the other end of the building for the other street entrance, which I can access by walking outside. So I have four elevators in total that come up to the penthouse level. Two svc, two pass. Also the coop has resp for skylights, terrace and all things outside.

Spin - that's great. I asked because I looked at two apartments with penthouses built on the roof which were accessed by a flight of (service) stairs up from the top floor.

And another building in which the terraces were the responsibility of the owner (and the one I looked at had building repair equipment parked on the terrace, making it really ugly and also damaging it)

To go with alan's wedding analogy: I think most people marry the person they are going out with at the time in their life wher they are ready to get married, rather than having "found that perfect person". To some extent, it's the same with apartment buying: people buy the best apartment they see at the time they are ready to buy. MANY buyers end up buying a unit which is actually not in the top 5 or even 10 in the list of all apartments seen, but they just were not ready to pull the trigger at the time they saw those units.

But in addition, I'll throw in something which might stir up some controversy: Most of the time, people weigh apartment vs apartment too much. In the end, the things which will make them actually "happy" vs less happy are mostly the same in many of the units they see, and the things which will be some of the biggest "downers" are things which they could never discern before making the purchase. In other words, I would be willing to bet that if you did a survey of people who bought in any given time period (i.e. not asking people who bought at the top of a bubble vs those who bought at the bottom), there would be little correlation between how happy they were with their purchase with how many units they looked at before buying. In fact, I would bet you'd find the opposite (but that part is more psychological - the less picky people being easier to please in general).

On a separate note, I'm not sure that right now you can judge pickyness based on how many units people have seen, since there are TONS of people who are looking on a regular basis, who we all know full well aren't buying anything right now. So "pickyness" has nothing to do with them looking at lots of units: looking with not intention of buying is what's racking up their score total.

____________________

David Goldsmith
DG Neary Realty

David, You certainly picked a complicated topic when you state that many people get married to the person they are dating when they find themselves at a point in their lives when they feel ready to get married. For me, there are probably many "perfect" apartments but due to factors such as price or in which building or neighborhood they are located, they become less perfect. When I started my apartment search, I had made the assumption that I would find a suitable apartment within six months since I know my neighborhood pretty well. However, like mjh1962, I am willing to wait for the right place. I may be in the minority because I am just as concerned about the building that we choose as I am about the apartment. Mjh1962, I loved your response to my question. Thank you for going into such great detail about your selection process. NYC10023, thanks for your excellent response to my inquiry about resellability. Spin, your apartment sounds amazing and thanks for your good suggestion about more carefully scrutinizing the sold listings in my price category. Ph41, I am now going to read the responses to your interesting earlier thread.

Lobster, there is a point where you need to either shit or get off the pot. You clearly know the market well so just trust your instincts and be ready to move on a deal. It would seem to me that 1.5m is sweet spot in the market where there are plenty of opportunities.

Our decision was sealed with a look from across the room, not unlike all the other places we have bought in the past. Hard to explain, its just a thing.

who cares what most people do?

what do people do that works?

1. they pick a place to live that works for them---financially, aesthetically, and every other way. who cares how long that takes other than stupid real estate agents? who are always pressuring to make the deal?

2. they marry someone whom they believe they can spend the rest of their lives with. however they come to that decision. to think that it doesn't matter who the other person is other than available is cynical, sad and quite telling about that person's life choices.

Yes two people make it MUCH harder. When I was on my own (lo these many years ago) I took the first thing I saw and was very happy. (I was lucky. It was adorable, although v. small.)

This time, we've been trying to find something that probably doesn't exist, including all his must-haves and all mine. But meanwhile, we moved into a rental that was very different from our old apartment and we learned a lot about what's most important: sky out the window, closet space, a vented kitchen. Close to the subway turns out to be important to us. And also quiet: we learned that if you can see a highway, no matter how distantly, you can hear the highway.

Spinnaker, the reason that I read and sometimes participate in the SE discussions is that it affords me access to a variety of opinions from individuals who are either in the RE profession or have an interest and some experience in this area. I'm not certain that I've reached the point in my RE search that I need to "either shit or get off the pot" but I certainly value your input. I tend to agree more with mjh1962's comment. Hope that you and your family enjoy the holiday.

Lobster- what happens if you find your 'dream" apartment, in your preferred location but it is not in your "dream" building? And someday I'll figure out what the dream building is, other that 115 CPW ,211 CPW, 740 Park, 778 Park , 40 Fifth and a few others, and for nostalgia sake 31-33-35-37 N. Moore Street

I am up way too late adjusting from Hong Kong time.

ph41, I am also up very late because I'm a night person. I don't really have a dream apartment or a dream building other than owning an entire townhouse which will remain a fantasy in my case. My dream neighborhood is further downtown, but I'm not comfortable buying in an area where I haven't lived. Looking back, I wish that I had lived in different parts of the city for all the years that I've lived here. I started this discussion because I was interested in hearing how other buyers selected their apartments and for what reasons and for how long their search continued. It is helpful to share experiences and ideas with others in this forum. You sound like you lead an exciting life filled with international travel. Enjoy your holiday.

Lobster - Simply put, you close your eyes and ask yourself, "Can I see myself living here?" I've bought and sold properties over the last three decades and that's pretty much all you need to do. Three years ago, when my older son was looking to buy, he looked at close to a dozen apartments. I agree with the poster who said you'll probably see the "best" apartments when you first start looking. The downside of that statement is that you won't know that until you've seen more. When my son began his search, the apartment that he ultimately purchased, heoriginally saw during the first weeks of his hunt. Luckily for him, after viewing a dozen more apartments, the apartment that he could "see himself living in" was still available and he was able to purchase it. While there have been a number of apartments of friends that he's visited and could "see himself living in," he is happy with his apartment and has never regretted buying it.

Likewise, I'll never forget a house I saw when I was on the hunt. My husband and I made multiple bids on the property, but the seller wasn't ready to sell and with the birth of our third child on the way, we needed a larger place to live in a hurry. We bought the home that we presently live in and, while I would have preferred the other home, it just wasn't meant to be. The seller of the other house NEVER sold the home. It was sold by his estate several years later. Regardless, we're happy with our purchase and enjoyed this home for many, many years.

I think a number of posters here, while they claim they are "buyers" are really only "lookers" and are truly afraid of making a decision about buying. That's mho. I think your question is an important one. I think the simple answer to how you buy a home is to decide what appeals to you, figure out what you can afford, and buy the apartment that your gut tells you to. Then don't look back. Enjoy living in the home and when your needs change, sell it and move on.

i'm definitely just looking. but two out of four of my purchases were "spontaneous." once seller distress (had bridge loan, sold apartment but deal fell through, needed immediate sale) caused the price of a unit we had loved but not been able to afford fall significantly, and when i found out i became a real buyer instantly. the other time i accidently hit the wrong open house buzzer and found an apartment that was far cheaper than the one i was going to look at. i had seen dozens of units while "just looking," and made a full-price offer that day.

many people are afraid to make a decision because the prices are still too freakin' high.

happy thanksgiving!!

Hi Lobster - we are looking well below your price range, and have been at this for 4 months. For a while, I had nightly panic attacks about dropping all of that money on something that wasn't our dream apartment (like you, I would also like a townhouse, but that will have to wait for many years). I can only imagine the kind of hesitation you must be having around investing $1.5m in a place that is not perfect.

I think what helped me is the realization that, at the end of the day, there probably is no "perfect" apartment for us, because we didn't build any of them. As long as you find the core things you are looking for (for us it is space, light, and outdoor space), almost everything else can be changed. An ugly kitchen can be improved, odd door placement can be fixed, bad floors can be replaced. And hey, in this market, just estimate the cost of your potential improvements and take it off the price.

We made an offer this week, and expect to hear back soon. Did we settle? Yes. But we settled on things that will take $15k to fix, and can be done at any time. We did not settle on our core requirements, which I think are all that really matter. Obviously, everyone has different requirements and tolerance levels, so our approach may not work for you, but if you're planning to stay in the place for years and years, I think it's best to focus on the big things, as you will probably eventually change the little things anyway.

We have been looking for 2 years now. With that said, we started our search living overseas as x-pats anticipating our return to the US, hoping to settle in NYC. We were only able to view apartments for a few days every 3 or 4 months on our trips home. That is why Streeteasy has been so important to us to help us keep up with the pulse of the marketplace. We have been back in the US almost a year now but continue to shop the market as out-of-towners, only able to look in NYC every 3 months or so. After a false start with one broker, we have found a wonderful, patient broker who we really enjoy. Over the two years, we have bid on 5-6 apartments that haven't jelled for various reasons, so we are serious. But it has been frustrating trying to find an apartment this way, which I have mentioned on another thread. So now we are looking for an apartment to rent on our next trip to NYC, at the suggestion of Streeteasy posters, so we can attend more open houses and get a feel for other neighborhoods. We just haven't found "the one" yet. A million + dollars is a lot of money in the "real" world. We want to spend it wisely. Are we being too picky? Maybe we are expecting more for our money because we own property outside of NYC. We like to know what we are buying into, which often seems to be difficult to ascertain in the NYC marketplace.

It took me about 7 years to buy my first apartment!!! It is a HUGE investment and i think most people want it to be perfect- i did. Every year when my lease was up for renewal i would look at about 15-20 apartments. In 7 years i could have bought 700 pairs of shoes (easily) and loved every pair!
Last year i closed on something new and looked at 3 apartments !!! This is heaven, but not perfect.... no matter what your price point the perfect apartment does not exist. I am in a new place, water view and 11 ft plus ceiling.. but the closet space stink !!!! And the wiring for lights... well good thing i have natural light!
So long way to say; i think people are and should be picky,it's your home. But realistic that no matter how much $$ you spend it is not going to be perfect!
Happy holiday to all and have a fab weekend!!

As today is Thanksgiving, let us reflect on how lucky we are to HAVE these arguments. We have all won the genetic lottery (sorry, uwsmom, don't know how to rephrase).

Marriage analogy: I married young (like CC, I think) and that's quite different from the vantage point of someone who married at an older age (30yrs, I suspect). In your 20s, with a huge dating pool, it's natural to think that you married the best person for you.

I take exception to thinking that you HAVE to decide whether to buy or not. The beauty of NYC and its large rental pool of apts, if you have the flexibility (no kids or older kids and the budget) is that you can try out different apts in diff. neighborhoods and see what are make or break factors.

When I first began looking to buy (we were living in a 1br UWS rental, no kids and no immediate plans for them), there was absolutely no reason for us to bite unless we saw something compelling. The 1br apts that we saw for sale were about the same as our rental (same location, condition, layout, etc.). I think that you are in the same situation, Lobster. We quickly realized that the only reason to buy would be to get an
extra bedroom (I'm a bit of a hoarder). Looked around and saw that the jump to 2br was an extra 300k (in 1998). Which was about the same as renting a 2br. No thanks. I kept an eye on listings that were acceptable, except for the price, and when a very poorly-staged and vacant 2br (broker didn't have the smarts to have weekly cleanings to keep the toilet bowls from having water stains) went to 480k (so a 130k premium for an extra br), we bought. Rent v. buy equation was firmly on the buy side.

Without really thinking about it (hey, I was young), that's roughly the same philosophy I've kept when it comes to rent v. buy. Buy if the price isn't too far off from renting the equivalent, and you are getting some benefit that you aren't getting from renting.

You're of course right, 10023. These are very quality "problems" we're considering here when we hem and haw over views vs. convenience to subways. Perspective.

And I completely agree about the ease of rent. One of the best decisions we made when we sold our last apartment was to take a break from owning and rent for a couple of years to "try out" some different neighborhoods. Not only did we coincidentally sell on the high side and are now buying at what will hopefully be low, but we tried out new neighborhoods and have decided exactly where we want to spend the next 10+ years.

My point: Having done both, I can tell you that you don't HAVE to own something to be happy. Now that I know that, I feel like I have the luxury to be extremely picky. In our price range, we're finding that they're all pretty darn nice. But we're waiting for the one that will sing to us.

What nyc10023 mentioned much earlier in this post and was also expressed by shocksternyc is that as a buyer, I need to identify the core requirements that I must have in an apartment. That's a thought that was mulling around in my head for a while and I thank everyone for sharing their stories and helping me clarify what I need to do.

I just reread what I what I wrote and feel that I should clarify just a bit. Obviously, I've identified from the start certain non-negotiable elements that I must have in an apartment. But I shouldn't get so frustrated in my search and feel that I have to settle for an apartment that doesn't have those elements. Thanks again to everyone and I hope that these comments have helped other buyers as well.

Actually going to open houses helped me to really figure out what's not negotiable (I cannot handle a tiny kitchen, but I'm ok w/ a small bedroom). Since then though, I haven't been going since there's no point unless prices drop further. I'll just continue to rent and keep my search lists up to date on streeteasy.

"Actually going to open houses helped me to really figure out what's not negotiable (I cannot handle a tiny kitchen, but I'm ok w/ a small bedroom)."

I have advised many buyers - especially first time buyers - when they start their search NOT to narrow down the apartments they are going to look at, but rather look at EVERYTHING. The reason for this is what I have seen is people coming up with some set of criteria the THINK is what they want, but either that criteria is based on a) what OTHER people say they like, b) some misplaced feeling of "fashion" )someone like ME *MUST* live in a prewar/full service/Fifth Avenue/whatever building, or c) the combination doesn't actually exist (apartment all come "off the rack" to a very large extent; just because you can imagine an apartment doesn't mean it exists. I remember back in the mid 80's we would constantly get calls from people who wanted an apartment which was a)In the "Prime Village", b) A loft, c) Full Service, d) below $150,000 and e) low mtc. Did not exist. When we said this to the caller, they would say they have seen them. When we asked "where?" the answer was "in the newspaper". Now, to some extent it was Broker BS in their ads, but it was also that these people had taken the best propreties of a whole bunch of units and conglomerated them into their Frankenstein-ish dream unit)

____________________

David Goldsmith
DG Neary Realty

Disagree, 30yrs. If you don't have some kind of compelling need to buy within X time period, why not be picky? What on earth are you missing by being picky?

to loosely quote our friend from w 67th: a borker is a borker is a borker.

borker's need to bork.

part of borking involving moving the transaction along.

30 yrs is a borker.

NYC - 30yrs is not saying to not be picky - he's just saying look at everything - what if you think you can't live with tiny kitchen, but walk in, see 16' ceilings, fireplace, terrace, skylights - but with tiny kitchen? Might change your mind?

further to this:

being a really good borker involves not letting people seeing that you're borkering.

just like a magician.

hey, i'm a borker, but not really because i hate borkers. watch as i don't bork. see, i'm not borking. see...?

30yrs has usually offered some really good information, and he has been out in the trenches, and often adds some very trenchant (sorry, couldn't resist) observations.

And for some reason, you cc, have now seemed to turn into a slightly annoying gadfly ading nothing substantive to the threaed.

be far more careful of those you defend. you may not have the whole picture.

cc- though I did meet 30yurs at the SE meetup -basically, I, as many others, come to conclusions about various SE posters based on what is posted - that's where the picture on SE comes from.

(though it also becomes obvious that personal relationships formed outside of the SE board make many ON the board more tolerant of postings fom certain posters that, in the "real world" would be considered totally beyond bounds and offensive.

CC and further - that is why I really have come to respect 30yrs posts.

your loss---hold onto your wallet.

i love the strategy of not limiting yourself too much. agree that you can look at properties slightly outside of your preferred criteria and still maintain a great degree of pickiness.

and i've never met 30 yrs, so i feel the same amount of disrespect towards him that i do for all SE posters ;). i just agree with this one point.

Actually, it's sort of funny that the question comes from nyc10023, since (I may be wrong) but I think I am advocating what you do: look at everything, so you can be better informed of what actually exists out there.

As a follow up to my last post, note that I said "I have advised many buyers - ***especially first time buyers*** - when they *******start******* their search" (emphasis attempted to be added). What I have seen all too often happen is that someone comes onto the market with this "list" of "must haves" which may or may not be realistic. And even if it is realistic in terms of what has actually been built, it may not be what the ACTUALLY like, just some concept of what they thought they would like based on some outside influences. It's sort of like picking the restaurant you are going to eat every meal at for X years only going by reviews and not actually sampling them yourself. (very much in the sense of ph41's posts re: small kitchen).

So what happens is that they look at a number of apartments (5... 10... 100) and they can't find one they like. So, only after spending tons OF THEIR OWN TIME (why is it that some people here only think of broker's time? I have to think that someone who values their own time as zero has to have something a bit off about themselves) looking at that set of criteria, at SOME POINT they realize they aren't going to find an apartment which meets those criteria, and alter the criteria. But they do the same thing: they make a rigid list, perhaps changing ONE item, and do the same thing all over again. In computer science, there is a search algorithm which is jokingly referred to as "The British Museum Algorithm". The methodology is: you walk into the warehouse and pick up the closest item to the door and look at it. If it's the it,e you are looking for, you are done. Otherwise, you put it back down and pick up the next closest item to the door. If that's the item you are looking for........ etc, etc. . Also sometimes known as the "brute force method".

So, no where was I advocating people settle (but more on this later *), what I was saying is that rather than deciding on criteria without having had a decent amount of experience which leads you to actual knowledge of how you react (even emotionally) to various aspects, you are best off STARTING by experiencing as many as you can, EVEN THINGS YOU DON'T THINK YOU CARE ABOUT. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people start their search saying they don't care about a view and end up giving up space, location, or whatever because they walked into some place and spent half an hour staring out the window until they said "I'll take it".

Going back to my ill received wedding analogy: it's rare that people with a long list of "musts" in finding the mate either find one or end up happy with what they find. there's an awful lot more happy couples out there who never imagined they would end up with "him/her" but didn't cross them off some list because they were too short/not a doctor/not Jewish/etc.

However, to answer the question "What on earth are you missing by being picky? " more directly: if you end up not getting married, never buying a car, never buying an apartment, never going out to a restaurant to eat, I could go on forever.... you are missing out because by being overly picky you stagnate/atrophy/whatever and never end up experiencing anything. Now, don't try to say I'm saying this mean that no one should be picky AT ALL and just take whatever crap they are handed. Personally, I'm a pretty picky person myself: but as an example, I'm known to go to good restaurants (at least one's I personally trust as being good) and ordering "surprise me" (and no, I wouldn't do that with my primary residence so that's not the point I'm trying to make).

* Everyone has to settle to some extent. One reason is just about everyone always wants more than they can afford. people looking to spend $500,000 really want $700,000 apartments. but even people who want to spend $10,000,000 want $15,000,000 apartments. While this isn't universally the case, I actually find it a bit unnatural that someone WOULDN'T want a better apartment than they could afford. As such, you have to settle on SOMETHING (even if that thing is spending more money than you planned).

____________________

David Goldsmith
DG Neary Realty

comparing buying an apartment to falling in love and getting married?

are there borkers for that too? people who stand there and pressure you to get on with it because you'll never find anyone else?

David, you seem to be in agreement with most posters to this question except that the way that you arrive at your conclusion is a little more indirect. You're telling us (buyers) to keep an open mind and look at apartments, all types of apartments until we gain enough exposure to figure what we really want. That's very sound advice. And when we have seen a large enough sampling, then we'll have a better idea of what kind of space we want. And back to your wedding analogy- since all of us have no faults, we come into the dating scene with a long list of characteristics that we are seeking in our significant other instead of meeting different people, having coffee or a drink, talking and seeing how comfortable we really are with that person. A million years ago when I was dating, I always hated when people made snap judgments about someone else without really finding out a little who they were. I'm sorry if you felt that you were misunderstood on this thread. I've read your posts many times and your advice is always excellent.

so...you too believe that buying an apartment is similar to falling in love?