E line at 201 West 70th

meant to say October 2008 for 4E. Also, these apts look to be bigger than the A line but pricing on those looks to be in the $550k-$650k range. However, those are true 1BR vs. E line are convertible ones...just a few more tidbits. Thanks!

If the price is low you've just advertised it!

well, actually was thinking maybe a bit high at $589k:)!

I'm surprised that you would say 201 is a beautiful building.

hi nyc 10023, I've read a lot of your posts so glad to have you weigh in on this one. Ok, so the building on the outside is pretty disgusting. Not the worst in the area but not nice:). It's the inside that's really quite nice (for my price range at least) -- very nice hallways that were renovated a few years ago. And the view from the apt...looks out on the Dorilton which is a lovely building. Facing Bway and Amsterdam, which makes the balconies loud but the apts themselves were surprisingly really quiet.

If you do a buy v. rent comparison with Tower 67 or the other postwar co-op rentals in the area, 589K + the mtce = pretty hefty premium to buy. Another equiv. co-op would be the Toulaine at 145W67. The Nevada would be a comp, except for the sky-high mtce. The location is a solid B - I can say that because I live in the vicinity. You have terrific access to subway & shopping but you lack the tree-lined charm closer to park.

I'm quite sour on these postwar co-ops, I would look for a better deal at elevatored prewar co-ops on a nicer block, unless a balcony + doorman + windowed A/C are dealkillers for you.

Also look for the prices for the new rental at 200W72 to do a buy v. rent analysis.

Also, did you notice that a larger 1br unit is for rent at 201 for $2700? I wouldn't touch a 1br at 201 unless it went below 300k.

Thanks nyc10023, I may be a bit different in that I love the feeling of being "in the city" -- must be my rural roots! The 1br for $2700 is definitely something worth considering -- seems a great deal. $2700 would imply $389k but also it looks like that apt faces west -- almost Lincoln Towerish without the nice Broadway view. To me, being close to the express stop is great and while Tower 67 and the Toulaine are not far, I am that lazy:). Given what I look for, this building is probably worth more to me -- full service, gym in the building, convenience to other hoods...I'm not sure I want to go $589k or even $550k but I think I'd go for it somewhere in between your number and their number:).

200W72 rentals will come online soon. Sure you don't want to wait? And what are 1brs renting for at the Alexandria (201W72) these days?

great neighborhood, great location. don't know the building though.

The Alexandria looks to have a great 1br for $3,500 that'a s duplex -- will need to check that one out. And as far as 200 West, I'm assuming those will be overpriced given the new development and Trader Joe's coming in there (plus you have to pay up for a rooftop misting wall:). But it's interesting -- wanted to get your thoughts -- I just plugged into the NY Times buy/rent calculator and it appears at $550k with 20% down and 6% mortgage with $11k annual maintenance, breakeven vs. renting at $2900 (assuming $200 premium for nice view) is 6 years. I'm looking for a place for ~5 year timeline, so something $500k-$550k may make sense. Not saying I'm pulling the trigger for sure but I really love the combo of location, apt, views, etc...

what does the calculator assume that you will sell for net of transaction costs in six years vs. your original purchase price?

I haven't used the NYT rent v. buy calculator. Others have and say that it isn't 100% accurate. I'm not sure it captures the expense of RE commissions, increasing mtce.

looks to be 6% -- http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/10/business/2007_BUYRENT_GRAPHIC.html#. Seems like a pretty useful tool as a starting point.

Riversider...I've lived in the neighborhood for a few years and never noticed the building until I went to look. In fact, I just assumed I was going to Nevada Towers. It's the building with the Starbucks, McDonalds, Pinkberry, and Subway. Funny b/c it's 40+ stories but with the retail, don't think most even see it!

Hi all. First time responder. Do you have 36 months of carry after downpayment? Cause if you don't I'd get a pre-approval letter from Matt for his couch. The govt will give $2k/month towards his couch.

Seriously chk out 200 w 72nd st.

Toulaine is 130 w 67th. Nyc10023 r u 2 days past due. U must be enormous at this stage. ; ) hope all is well.

The market seems to indicate the apartment is worth $460,000. It's the same line, not materially different in terms of floors or condition. I'd offer 460k with the 6E comp, and let them justify why you should pay more.
It seems to work in comparison with the rental cost, as that purchase price, with 20% dp and a 5.5% mortgage rate, would make your after tax monthlies about $2,500.
Don't buy and lock your downpayment money unless it locks your costs under your rent.

With 110k dp, 440k at 6%, you're at $2600ish/month for mtge + 800ish for mtce. So that's 3500 gross, before tax benefits. Don't forget that mtge interest benefits gets clawed back with increased AGI - what's your net/month? $2500? What about transaction in and out costs? You would have to make approx. 40k in 5 years and account for the loss of earnings on the 110k dp. I'm skeptical about the NYT buy rent v. rent calculator. You honestly see that apt selling for 600k in 6 years? I don't.

nyc10023 -- looks to grab everything besides increasing maintenance.

w67th -- ha:). I should have the financials to cover. Looking in a "modest-by-NY" price range so that I'm not stretching myself too thin should job security, etc. become an issue. Hoping once the dust settles in 5 or so years that I can move to my dream place and hopefully have the finances at the time to do so!

One other thing what will rents be in 1 yr? Forget purchase price, that'll follow the rentals like dogs to bacon.

The rent v buy calculator at the Times is great. It's all just math, but it's nice to have the tool do that math for you. Don't miss the "ADVANCED SETTINGS" link on the upper right. Select Buy or Rent to see what the assumptions they are using. The only question is if they are missing anything significant from those settings. I didn't see any glaring ones.

(note that you definitely want to set the maintenance for the "Buy" settings).

any source of info for pricing 200 w 72?

Thanks manly and nyc10023. Agreed that 6E is a good starting point (but really wonder what was up with 4E). Actually sounds like a great deal to me at that price given what I'm looking for. nyc10023 -- it was the assumption I made on 3% per year appreciation with the calculator -- admittedly with little basis other than historical inflation as my assumption. I think it does a decent job but to your point, only as a starting point as there are a lot of other things to consider. This is the first time in the 10 or so years I've been in the city that buying can even come close to renting (well at least since I could even afford to look so maybe when I first moved it was a different story).

but....take a look at the math if price drops 15% in the first year and then follows your 3% up a year.

wishhouse - totally agreed. Thanks much for the tips!

cc -- on 200w, I haven't seen anything yet but am betting it will be more expensive than the Alexandria given the newness/amenities.

agreed but wonder how much of a premium they can get.

Very true cc...however, and maybe I'll get lampooned for this, I'd rather not try and time the absolute bottom of the market b/c the upside speed in this town can be crazy. Probably wont be, but given the market has shed 20%ish and is at 2005 levels, I'm at a point where I'm comfortable with the downside risk if I can pull off something similar to renting. It's been a bit of a dream to own here in the city and I guess I'm a bit of a contrarian as far as actually *wanting* to buy now!

just do the math to make sure you understand what this could cost you. if you're still comfortable, go for it. p.s. the prior upside speed can work in the other direction.

also, the 6e pricing works out to about $725 per sq ft...that's an amazing deal actually given the other apts are all 900 or so per sq ft and usually facing west it seems. Glad that's the starting comp for white glove doorman/elevator bldg with a balcony right by the express trains:). Is the converible 1 vs. true 1 responsible for that much of a difference? Other open houses I've seen aren't as nice as 11E, but maybe that's b/c I really value outdoor space...

cc, very true. But hoping having a longer term view can help since I can lock in the right type of place now and afford it, the risk for me is more on waiting, having prices go up, and being stuck renting forever. It seems most think another 10%+ decline but even with a 10% increase, I'd be stretched on budget. As it is, haven't seen much in my range that I love. Will probably sit tight past the holidays in any case...

would highly recommend that you read adjacent string about foreclosure protection particularly post from apt23.

Yes, the fact that the E line offers alcove studios vs. real 1 bedrooms explain the pricing.
At 460k, it's a decent deal. Not the most amazing deal of the decade, mind you, but if the numbers work well enough for you, go for it.

maly, is this something as buyer one could address by walling up the alcove, taking out the closet wall next to the br and then have a true 1br that's larger than the other lines. Way I see it, you'd have a 26x12 LR, 11x8.5 br, separate entrance for the ba. Vs the A line with 20x12 LR and 15x10 br. 11E is pretty much a 1br but the entrance of the LR is a bit odd. Still for the space and money, I'm at least very interested!

also, I'm paying $2300 for a "true" 1br that isn't even close to these apts. No light or doorman but a charming pre-war elevator building in the 70s by Columbus. Good to see if nothing else rentals for a few hundred more a month are much nicer...

The bedroom needs to have a floor, a ceiling, a door, a window, a closet and be at least 80sf.
You can change the layout to give bathroom access from the living room, but unless that is very important to you, don't bother. It is what it is, a converted alcove studio, and regardless of bathroom access, it will still be that in 5 years.

ahh, so maybe that's the difference b/w 11E and 6E -- 11E has been converted to a proper 1BR where as 6E looks to have a partial wall up only. Actually, the 11E br is quite substantial at 10x11 but having the entrance off the lr really made it obvious as an alcove convert rather than a 1br. Getting way ahead of myself here in thinking resale:)!

I am not sure I made myself clear; the small layout difference between 6E and 11E is completely immaterial. You can change the layout for a couple thousand dollars. It should not be an argument for a higher or lower price between these 2 apartments.

Hi maly, got it. But I am a bit confused:). Does this come down to the stigma of an alcove conversion vs. a 1br? B/c if you were to do the closet removal to have a separate br and ba entrance, you effectively have a very similar apt to the A line -- which are true 1brs and going for much more. And with a closet, window, and 80+sq ft, it would really be a legal 1BR at this point, no? BR of 10x11 vs. 15x10 in A line but LR 26x12 vs. 20x12 in A line. Overall size makes E slightly bigger than A really. Just trying to understand better the potential upside and if even if converted to a true 1br, the alcove would be limited given its heritage as a studio. Thanks

Price inconsistencies not limited to the E line. 36A - nice, updated one bedroom with drop dead western views. Went to contract in 5/09 for $600,000. The identical unit, 34A, in serious need of renovation, went to contract in 9/09 at %645,000. Was it just timing? Luck? It seems that better quality units are somewhat scarce so pricing is largely dictated by short term demand, traffic, etc.

curious- basically 11E enlarged the alcove at the expense of the living room - which was originally only 12' wide, so what is it now? 10' or 9'? It is what is is - a converted alcove studio, not a true one bedroom, and the price seems way high for that.

they haven't reflected the change in the living room dimension due to the enlarged alcove, so yes, there is a real difference.

you can fool some of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but not all of the people all of the time.

haha:). Well, by the floorplan, if the kitchen is 8'5" wide / same as original alcove. Now that the alcove is 10'3", looks to be the LR width is down from 12'3" to 10'5" in that area. Felt reasonably wide. Maybe I'm not as picky, but aside from the odd entrance to the BR, I really prefer this layout to the A line 1br. Not sure if I'd prefer the original 8'5" br with the LR staying at 12'3". But to me, it's something I like better than the A line. I don't need a 15x10br but love the extra 6 ft in the LR on the E line. And the biggest difference is I prefer the eastern exposure looking out at the city...unless high enough to get the river view on the other side which would be spectacular...

Sjtmd -- great point. The fact that there are only 3 E lines available in the last 5 years makes these less cookie cutter / commodities. Not much around with similar layouts, location, and balcony. A lines -- appears there are more of them, but still pretty unique for the area...and on the high floors, pretty sweet. Also, the G line out there -- 26G -- overpriced but what a view!

curious - you obviously want it, so you have done their (sellers/broker's) work for them.

I looked around ACRIS for info surrounding the 4E transaction. Looks to be a legit transaction and based on the previous purchase price (for 4E), it looks the the seller got VERY lucky. On the other hand, the seller also paid 2.2m for a 3-bedroom combo (EF) so it's a wash.

I pass 201 every day. I find the people around McDs & Sbucks annoying - lots of panhandling going on, due to generously sized sidewalk & economy. The building is well-maintained, and people like it well enough (reflected in the prices, always been priced a tad higher than the other aforementioned postwar co-ops).

ph41 -- not sure I agree. Seems from the posts there are a lot of pluses and minuses. With any big investment, best to get the opinion of as many as possible. And I find the majority of posters to these forums are looking for something much bigger. Wishful thinking maybe? I do like the place a lot, but not sure enough to pull the trigger based on a lot of what was discussed here.

nyc10023 -- agreed...4E doesn't even have a balcony. On natefind, I also saw that in 2004 it sold for $340k. Also, yeah, the block does have a lot of oddballs and pigeons but with Trader Joe's coming around the corner and the express stop right there, it's a tradeoff. Plus, pinkberry and starbucks without leaving home!

Any case this has been really helpful -- though I have more questions now than I did before posting -- something to consider...

In the 10+ years I have lived here, 201W70 (despite my scorn for the architecture) has held up pretty well in values and always priced at a premium compared to other postwar co-ops.

The combined apts have gone for huge premiums. E+F for instance is a studio + small 2-bedroom and the seller of 4E paid 2.2m+ for that combo (at the height of the market).

I can hardly pooh-pooh the location too much. I'd prefer to be on a park block, though. When I worked, being that close to 72nd St subway station was huge. I used to live on Broadway and the noise wasn't bad at all (surprisingly) but I have been told by people that it varies from floor to floor (in the same building).

Getting a cab on that corner is annoyingly hard because of the confluence of Amsterdam and Bway. Of course, you could always cross Broadway to get cab or Amsterdam...

Another good point is that the co-op lets you replace the old double-hung windows with tilt-and-turn. I have some acquaintances high up in an east-facing combo, and they like it a lot. No problem doing whatever you want, since there's no style to preserve.

2Br-studio combination gives generous 3BR/3Bth - or 2.5 bath plus WD - so very valuable. When people combine studio/1BR not much better than original 2/2. Never know why they do that

Yep, I agree on the foolish studio/1br combo. Lots of people did, back when studios were very cheap/sqft compared to 1brs & 2brs.

thanks nyc10023 -- good tips all around. Was the EF combo 14EF? That's a really nice floorplan -- gracious 3 br from a studio + small 2/big 1 br combo. Assuming fair price of studio at $550k and of the small 2 at $850k = $1.4MM...$2.2MM is a huge premium regardless of the market. And the maintenance isn't bad at all for a combo...

why is the studio "fair price" at 550k? and small 2br at 850?

That is a big price for a studio

ph41 -- very generous on the comps -- point being the sum is greater than the parts by quite a lot. The F line is really a 1 br with dining area hence less than a typical 2br and the E line is the size of a 1br so hence the higher than typical studio price.

On a side note, the KL combo in contract is terrible. Bedroom off the kitchen and oddly large MBR. Don't like it. The 14EF combo from last year is great though.