For sale by owner -co broke

Yes. I advertised on NY Times and several brokers called me and some attended my open house and offered to list my apartment as open listing. I offered them 2.5% commission if their client purchases my apartment. It works well for me so far. I have got an offer through a broker.

OP- #2 thanks. did you advertise the 2.5% co broke commission or just discuss it when the brokers called. thanks

something like "brokers welcome please call for terms" is fine.

I also spoke to my agent and he states that it is too difficult to sell a condo without a brooker. It makes sense to advertise it but if you advertise and have a lawyer to assist in the legal aspect of selling then it could be profitable. My agent was angry when I mentioned it to him . I can not accept giving 6% to a company on the sale of a property. 2 or 2.5 % is enough.

Do you think you can do 95% better than any broker? If yes, then list it yourself.

I don't think you can, and thats why brokers exist. You may save 6%, but stats show FSBOS sell something like 10% below its value...

EVEN if you do 94% as good of a job as a broker, then you still lose as your time, money, efforts, stress is not worth the hassle.

Just use a great broker and be careful when you make your decision.
you would be surprised how much bigger the buyer pool is then you think. Expanding to them through all means of advertising is important including broker to broker, MLS systems, of which you don't have access to.

JamesA is right.

JamesA and slowboat are brokers. You do not need a broker in NYC. If you have a great lawyer, a good idea of the market (go to open houses in your area, etc) and are semi-intelligent about posting (to places like NY times, etc.) you will have very little problems selling. It it totally worth the hassel. Why pay an extra 3% if you don't need to.

#8--sometimes it can work out for people to FSBO. But by and large sellers are much better off using an exclusive broker and paying 5-6%. There is a reason why the majority of people use brokers and the reason is NOT that they just enjoy throwing away money

This is #8...I don't really think throwing money away or not is why people use brokers.It's really because they don't feel comfortable with the nuances of a realestate deal. They don't do it every day and therefore don't want to make a mistake. My point is: it's really not all that complicated and it just takes common sense.

To #8 :

Now my opinion relates to the NY, Manhattan market. I don't know how it works in any other borough...

Yes I am a broker. I wasn't hiding and I am not trying to pick up a listing in this post.

common sense? Im glad that you brought that up...

common sense should tell you that the more people a property is exposed to, the more the likelihood of getting more value in the sale. You may agree or disagree, but brokers can expose a property much better than the average FSBO

I think it is a concept that brokers understand and here is a clear indication:

Every owner/broker that I know co-brokes their own home when they want to sell.
SURPRISINGLY (and I don't intend to be sarcastic), many many buyers do not look on their own and just rely on their broker to call them if anything fits their criteria. Do you think celebrities and hi-profiles do the legwork themselves? (Thats just an example).

They can do a direct deal but they choose not to.

Another thought:
Very often a seller will try and sell themselves and then direct the sale to a broker later when they realize they have no clue what theyre doing and what's going on in the market.

JamesA

It is only a matter of time until you are out of a job. Your role in "introducing" buyers to a property is dubious -- the only value the brokerages currently have is the ability to pay for advertising and distribution of listings on the web. Once sites (like this) gain more critcal mass, and eventually Google gets involved, a good lawyer and a browser is all you will need.

I have purchased 3 apartments in 5 years in $$1M - $2M range. All on the internet. All on NYTimes.com.

Like ink and paper, the internet will eventually make brokers required only by the uninformed, unconnected, and lazy. In other words, rich old people.

Good luck selling in Sunnyside!

OP- Question to broker, James A. do you show apartments to clients where the owner is selling on his own, but offering a co broke commission?

Answering the question directed at James A but I am not James A just a broker. No I do not show FSBOs even if seller is paying. My agency doesn't allow it, these listings don't even go in our system.

yes, as #14 says--some brokerage firms do not allow it. I am a broker and I would show a fsbo, but I make my own rules.

To: OP-- I do show ALL APTS in the neighborhood I specalize in, whether the commission being offered is 6% direct, or 2% (just an example)
Personally I find it distasteful when other brokers contact me and ask what the commission split is on my listing b4 setting an appt up and then use that info to decide whether they want to show the place or not. Unfortunately if the split is too low, many brokers will not show their customers...But that may be company policy and I'm not getting into that.

However, I am going off-topic here... I think that the 3% you are offering is acceptable to brokers who want to show your place. I just don't think that by trying to sell it on your own will achieve you the highest price...

#12-- no need to build an attack against me.
My point was that if you can definately do as good of a job as a broker then yes list it yourself. I have no problem with that, I don't get mad at FSBOs! Personally I don't think you will come out on top aside from the thought "I just saved myself x% by not using a broker!"

You obviously have had bad experiences working with brokers...

You purchased 3 apts on the internet. That's great. You are speaking from a buyers perspective however. Have you sold any on your own?

My opinion is that right now it is better to stick with one broker rather than an FSBO.
I can't tell you (nor am I worried) about how the internet will change that.

Maybe I'll be out of a job one day...and one day you may be as well!

If brokers become obsolete, How will that effect the value of your real estate?
Would the economy take a hit? No need to answer, as they are both rhetorical

James A

You are in fantasyland. The loss of brokers will have ZERO impact on prices or the economy. Both will be absorbed by higher margins across the board and no middle men.

Oh, and I am in the technology sector . . so I am the one putting you out of a job.

No need to worry . . . it will be quick an painless, just like it was for the typwriter repairmen and train conductors . . .

OP-#14 is this cannot show FSBO policy for all the major RE firms?

Even if the apartment is not in the system. I have noticed other FSBO's have a ton of brokers browsing open houses to get the listing. Does not seem you need to be in the system to be noticed.

I am not a broker. This is what I did last year and it worked very well. I know a lot of brokers and live in a very liquid building. They real question is; why do an exclusive? I offered 6% to brokers I trust and know. I didn't want any marketing or open houses. The real question is; who knows the buyers? I had no interest in fielding calls and qualifying buyers. I qualified brokers. I went onto multiple websites and looked for brokers active in my building. I wanted brokers who knew my area and knew my building. Once I sold, I had seller’s resource and felt that the $100,000 check I wrote to the broker was a bad decision on my part, but at the end of the day the broker owned the buyer. The sale would have never happened. The real question is; how many buyers user brokers versus buyer who look for FSBO.

#19--I cannot understand the logic of offering 6% commission and not getting the advantages of an exclusive.

its not the commission, it's your net. i knew what i wanted to put into the bank, and i knew the value of my apartment. someone get's 6%. fsbo, the buyer get the 6%.

Of course, sorry, it worked out for you and congratulations. I meant to say that in general if someone is going to offer 6% without giving an exclusive they are limiting their market and eposure so dramatically that it is not the right way to go.

I want to sell my condo myself to save the 3.5% to 6% commission. Need recommedation for a good lawyer. How much is the fair attorney fee for the fsbo seller?

i think i increased my market exposure. i have 4 brokers, in 4 firms, with long client lists working for 6%.

Again, you knew what you wanted, you were very smart about who you chose, you offered a terrific incentive, and it worked out. However, you did not increase market exposure--on the contrary, rather than exposing it to all of the brokers in NYC, and all of their buyers, you lowered your eposure to a select few buyers to whose brokers you offered a nice incentive. It is just not a smart gamble to take by and large despite the fact that you made it work for you

OP-- You're getting a full mix of answers. I think this is because your question is broad.
Your offer will be received differently in different neighborhoods.

But what do I know, I am living in Fantasyland. Once I was convinced that we would live a life similar to the Jetsons in year 2000.

#23 Why use an attorney? You can also get a sales contract on the internet.

PS
I am a broker

What do you mean why use an attorney?

OP- to James A. My question is with respect to an UES 1 BR

IMHO, anyone who would not use an attorney for the purchase and/or sale of a 1 MM asset is a schmuck (unless they have specific knowledge which obviates the need for an attorney). A broker, however, is much different than an attorney. Assuming one has time to show their apartment and an ounce of salesmanship, brokers are quite useless. they are glorified hostesses.

The last open house I attended, the extent of the broker's responsibilities were as follows:

opened door, greeted me, referred me to ebsite for all information and responded with a succession of "you know, I don't know" in response to inquiries about the building. Real estate brokers are about as superfluous as you can get.

#18 However, you do not want your open houses filled with brokers trying to get the listing, you want qualified buyers.

To test the waters, I put up a very desirable pre-war 1,100 square foot Junior 4 Coop last year on Craigslist and got multiple responses within hours. As my building does not permit open houses, I showed the apartment at intervals that night to three couples. By 11pm that evening, I had an offer by email at my asking price, which was higher than any comparable apartment sold in my building or immediate neighborhood within the past two years. The couple did not have a mortgage committment letter in hand, but I could tell they were serious and really liked the apartment after looking for a while (with a broker) without much luck.

To be honest, I never expected to sell it that week, but I decided to sell it to them. I called a lawyer, the papers were prepared, they got a mortgage and we closed three months later. This was not rocket science. The only bump in the road was that the buyer's appraiser wound up appraising the apartment for less than I was asking and the couple had to scramble to come up with a bit more cash. They were short $5K, so I lowered the price at the end. Big deal. I'm not that greedy. They were happy, I was happy (my neighbors loved them, too)...this was an easy transaction.

No offense to brokers (my mother was one for many years), but if you have a hot property, you are capable of taking quality photos, know how to present the apartment in its best light both in a written ad and in person, you can sell it (or least try). No broker is going to know the nuances of your building and immediate neighborhood better than you do. You live there. Your children go to school there. You commute to work from there. I know that this couple appreciated the fact that they could talk to ME about the building directly.

The market may be changing, but in my opinion, it's worth a few nights of your time to try the FSBO route via Craigslist. If it doesn't work, then going to a broker is always an option.

thanks #33, very useful information. what neighborhood was your listing? I am a seller and a buyer. My only apprehension seeing a FSBO is insulting the owner with an offer below ask. Somehow easier to do via a broker. Love the fact you did not use one. I am counting on the RE market commission changing in the next few years like every other industry.

Had similar experience as #33 but as a buyer. Found FSBO condo on NYTimes.com, visited the apartment at open house (which was packed by the way), put in an offer that was accepted a few days later. Owners mentioned they had four offers, all on the first day of the open house. We worked through lawyers for the contracts and directly with the seller for everything else. Became friends with the sellers, and they helped us navigate the building, management company, and gave us tips on the neighborhood. The most positive and simple real estate transaction I have experienced. Will definitely sell without a broker when/if we move again.

#34...insulting the owner with an offer below ask. Are you nuts??? It's business. No wonder the real estate market is crazy. People like #34 has too much money and not enough b...s to make an offer.

Julia. Sometimes in business it is important to take psychology of your opponent into account. And get what you want without turning them off. You are really quite aggressive in your reaction to people on this board, while simultaneously seeming inexperienced and uninformed.

Hmmm, Julia is "quite aggressive" "while simultaneously seeming inexperienced and uninformed." Is she cute though?

I am a brokerage agent. There are two parts to my job. Bringing the seller and best buyer together in a meeting of the minds through marketing and negotiation, of course, but then comes the interesting part: making the deal actually happen. Congratulations to all the people who sold on their own by posting on Craigslist, or on the supermarket bulletin board, or by telling a few friends, and got the highest price ever in their building, and had a no-hitches smooth as silk deal and made a friend for life. It can happen, particularly when the market is slow. But buying a home is an extremely personal experience, fraught with personal concerns, and the New York market is extremely volatile. And deals can and do blow up any day, for any reason, rational or not, and an experienced broker who understands both the process of New York real estate and the kinds of concerns sellers and buyers are prone to can foresee and forestall problems by carefully monitoring the process, crossing the t's and dotting the i's and also addressing all those personal concerns. Attorneys do not do that, it's not their responsibility. Attorneys responsibility and first priority is to protect their clients, not resolve problems. This is why my job is called being a broker, not an advertiser, and not an event/planner hostess. The job is about brokering between people. That's why I don't think it will be replaced by the internet. Regarding the commission, the fee stands at 6%, generally, because sellers make more money paying it than not. It's not a cost; it's an engine leading to an entire marketing structure.

I currently have my apartment for sale on the ForSaleByOwner.com website, and have had quite a few brokers contact me directly offering to list my apt for sale. I explain that I am not interested in paying a 6% commission, because I have the time and means to market and merchandise it myself (I can show it when the buyer wants to see it, no apptmt hassles) and also, I am intelligent enough to ask the right "qualifying" questions.

And THIS is where the conversation with the broker (who called me, by the way) takes a turn:

A few brokers (few and far between, actually) negotiate their fee down to 3% and agree to work with me on a non-exclusive basis. Is it because they think my apt is priced to sell, shows well, and can be an easy deal for them? I don't know. Do they get a bonus just for for bringing in another listing? I don't know that either. The bottom line is, if I LIKE the broker I am speaking with, feel that they understand me and my situation, and they can find a buyer who somehow didn't find me....well then I figure it would be worth it to pay a 3% fee, so I give them a set of keys.

The majority of other brokers who contact me feel the need to lecture me on how I can't possibly find a qualified buyer on my own (insulting) how the subprime mortgage situation means that banks aren't financing co-ops anymore (so untrue) and how real estate agents can bring the apt to market better than an owner trying to do it themselves (again, insulting). If these brokers would just re-focus their conversation on the needs of the seller (after all, it would be me who would be paying their commission) then we would all find ourselves in a better place.

The last category of brokers who have called me in the last 2 weeks seem shady. These couple of folks are trying to convince me that I wouldn't really be paying the commission, because they would just tack on 6% to my asking price and then list it on their website for 6% more. Well that senario just drives me nuts, and I wonder (any brokers care to respond?) if that practice is moral or even legal. And not to mention the messy situation it would cause if they brought a buyer to see my apt at their inflated price, who might then see my apartment on Craigs List or the NYTimes at my published asking price....that just stinks to me of a bad situation all around.

So anyway, to others thinking the same thing as OP, I don't have an answer to offer yet, but I will be happy to post the results of my personal sale situation when it happens, promising to be truthful as to whether I sold it myself or via a broker, and what the ultimate expenses were to me, via my own advertising costs or a realty commission (or both) in selling my apartment.

Cheers everyone.

ShareShareThatsFair .... how bout you post a link to your apartment, never know who might be reading this...your buyr might be on the board

I agree with Jmolishever, he has it right! Brokers are not just hostesses or advertiser's. They are working on the deal all the way through. The wonderful story about the buyer and seller is great when it just happens that way, but there can also be the opposite situation and there needs to be a buffer (the broker). Buyers and sellers do not always agree throughout the deal and it gets sticky. Buyers have walked when they do not like the seller! They say I don't want to buy from that idiot, or I don't like his attitute, and walk away and tell their lawyer not to send the contract back. There are closings where the buyer AND seller DO NOT SHOW up and have their lawyers and brokers do the entire transaction. At the end of the deal they both say I never want to deal with that person again.
As far as everyone saving all this money. It is an illusion, because you do not know how much you would get with a broker. I went to a recent FSBO to look at for a client, it was not to get the listing. They were impressively organized, very knowledgable, had nice layouts and pictures. I was very impressed by the great job that they had done. They were willing to pay the 3% to a broker with a buyer, which is fair. After all this do you know that the VERY NEXT DAY, they lowered their price almost 4%. THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE DONE BETTER GIVING IT TO A BROKER, who could have done better on the price setting in the first place. A big reason for a broker is the comparative marketing analysis they can do on everything that has just closed and are active right now. They know when a price is right and they know when it is high and tell their client. Do you get the picture? Craigslist is fine if you want to sell something like computers or cd's but for selling the biggest asset you own, don't you want multiple buyers and a possibly a multiple bid situation? and that's why you want a broker, besides the fact that most will co-broke with ALL other agents, so everyone can get a piece of the pie if they have a buyer. Unless you are a broker most agents just get a 1/2 of a 1/2 of the pie anyway and work for every single penny. Brokers have to have their listings available to all rebny members right away so having an exclusive is like having 200 brokers working for you and all their agents.

“At the end of the deal they both say I never want to deal with that person again.”

With all due respect jblanks, I have found that the tumultuous relationship between buyers and sellers is usually because of the brokers. As a general statement, egos within the broker community get in the way of what is best for the buyer or seller. Most of the time (and I say most not all) issues between the buyer and seller can be worked out with a simple phone call. I have seen a number of brokers take personal vendettas and forget what they are there for in the first place. Why is it that brokers go to great lengths to keep buyers and sellers from speaking directly?

Additionally,

“Buyers and sellers do not always agree throughout the deal and it gets sticky. Buyers have walked when they do not like the seller! They say I don't want to buy from that idiot, or I don't like his attitude, and walk away and tell their lawyer not to send the contract back.”

How many times has the buyer walked because they don’t like the sellers attitude when in reality, it was the sellers broker that was the problem? I don’t know, but I would guess a large % of the time. I would also guess that these issues occur much more frequently broker to broker than FSBO.

Juice man - Brokers and agents are no less prone to ego problems than anyone else, but they only get paid when a deal is completed. Those who blow up deals because of personality issues don't stay in the business long. Which is not to say I haven't encountered my share of incompetent or unstable agents in the years I've been in the business. But the dynamics of the marketplace dictate that the vast majority are competent and stable, or at least enough so to do their jobs. The market chases the others away.

It's rare to have 2 crazy agents -- the seller's and buyer's agents -- on the same deal. In the instances where I've encountered an agent whose personality or competence issues jeopardized the deal, I've been able to work around that with a little common sense and foresight, and make the deal happen for my customer. I like to think I helped it happen.

Buyers who suspect their agent is hurting the deal or getting in the way of their getting the property they want, can fire their agent anytime they want to, prior to signing a contract. My company also allows sellers to fire their agents, even exclusive agents, at any time and for any reason, or no reason, prior to signing the contract. It's in our exclusive agreement. We do it for two reasons: because sellers should have that right if they're not convinced they're better off with the agent than without; and because virtually none of our customers ever do it - they're very pleased with our work.

There's a lot of hostility and suspicion towards agents on this board. I suspect it's because people think agents and brokers are ripping them off with the six percent commission. Go through the classifieds. The vast majority - probably better than 90%- of listings are through exclusive agents. It's not because New Yorkers are gullible, or lazy, or don't mind giving away thousands of dollars. It's because sellers net more with agents, deals happen more efficiently (meaning with less chaos) and both seller and buyer are more likely to get what they want, when they have a professional agent working with them. It's not just me saying that, it's the evidence of all those listings.

You make some valid points JMolishever, however my opinion is that more folks using agents may choose not to if they understood other viable options. I believe (from experience) that FSBO is an alternative option that can work well. I personally am not hostile towards brokers (even with some very poor personal experiences) but rather a strong believer that if you do your homework and have the time, you can come out ahead in FSBO versus using a broker.

It's simple. Brokers in general are middle men, making money off of those with the property. They protect their business. Unfortunately, sellers have no option other than try to work around the system set up to accommodate brokers.

I cringe every time I hear a broker tell me that they can get more than the FSBO can. I had a broker tell me that one of his clients had a magic number of 500K. After much negotiations with prospective buyers they sold for 508k. The broker had the gall to tell me that he got more than the FSBO and met the magic number. What? take away 6% and you get way below the sellers magic number. Why don't brokers deal with FSBO's? I'll tell you.

1. No legal recourse to those who find the property with a broker, and then don't pay the broker the finders fee. Why would you work when not getting paid? Their loyalty is to their own bank account, not to you finding or selling a property. That is why I hate it when they say they are working for you. They even tell me that when I suggest I'll pay 2%, and yet out of all the brokers who know of my property only one brought a buyer, and that was because they walked past the sign for an open house on the front door. Sure, they work for the sellers and buyers. They pretend to be facilitators but in reality they hamper the transaction. They work to get as much of your money. The book "Freakonomics" found that on average brokers keep their own properties on the market longer than clients because they know they can get more. If they keep yours on the market longer they make less. That is why most slime will encourage you to sign a contract at your asking and then when you get zero offers they start wanting to lower the price. Lower and lower until they sell, and get 6%.

2. If the market changed and allowed sellers to sell without brokers, they would be out of work. Over half of all the 20,000 borkers in NYC would out of business. The NAR is well away of that. (NAR = National Association of Realtors) Do some research online and you'll find lobbyists all over the country fighting to keep acting as middle me.

3. Comfort level. Brokers like dealing with their own kind, propagating the business model.It is a known entity. FSBO's are not known. Some know what they are doing, some don't. They might actually make a deal but will have to work to hard to get it. It's their bottom line. If they work twice as hard, then they make half as much. Pretty greedy if you ask me.

In the end though, in my opinion, brokers who make 6% and split that with another brokerage house make entirely too much money for what they do. They are not doctors or lawyers. If a broker takes an exclusive, entertains 6 offers in 2 weeks with a few phone calls and 2 open houses with a few private viewings on a property worth 1M, is it worth 60K? I don't care what they say. It is plainly not worth it.

I suggest we revamp the whole industry. Brokers should be paid a flat fee for specific work like a chinese menu. Also, if the broker is working for the buyer, let the buyer pay the fee, tabulated based on the work done. Maybe there should be algorithms developed to accommodate any variances. If the seller uses a broker, let the seller pay, but no a percentage of the sale. Further, any listing service should be regulated and maintained by a separate agency that is developed for the seller and buyer, not the broker.

Any lawyers out there ready, willing, and able to take on the real estate lobby and the state legislatures to change the system?

Let me start by saying I loved my broker. She actually has integrity, is responsive, follows up, works hard. That said, she recently assisted my in purchased a coop. I'm extremly proactive and studied this website and immersed myself in the market when looking for a new home in Manh. As a result, she probably had much less to do than working for someone who wanted her to do it all. In the end, I think her commission on my purchase worked out to something like $800/hr. Now I know there are many clients who never buy, commissions have to be shared sometimes with agencies (my broker owns her agency so got it all), there are overhead office costs, etc. Still, $800/hr is what most doctors can only dream of after ten years of graduate study and work. Something does seem out of kilter in the RE world. In the old days when the only way comprehensively to learn of listings was using a broker who had access to broker-only databases, like it or not brokers could provide more valu-added services. These day? The value of those services are much less. Don't get me wrong: there is value. But 6%? Or 3% if co-brokered? Or 1.5% if the 3% commission is shared by the co-broker and her agency? I don't think this pricing structure will hold. Just ask anyone who was a travel agent in the 1980's how they are doing today.

kylewest-

Thank you for your comment, and I agree. The system change in the travel industry favored the airlines. The airlines had more power to change the system because they knew they could make more money by getting rid of the middleman - travel agents. Especially with the new technology like the internet on the horizon.

I have respect for brokers when they do good work. Any service that is done well should receive adequate compensation. At the same time, reasonable and adequate compensation should reflect the work done, matching the costs of similar services. They are not in this case.

If I decide to use a broker either to sell or buy, then I should pay for the service. If I decide to do it myself, I shouldn't be squeezed into a process that will make me loose time and money, or be forced to deal with a process and industry that hordes information because information is power. Lose information and you lose power. Power is money.

I've had brokers call the first week, and then call again 6 weeks later and ask "Have you given up yet?" and have the arrogance to tell me that I need to conform to the system because it is better and that I just don't understand. What I understand is that gucci toting, prada wearing brokers are scamming us the same way as the insurance industry, the health care system, big oil, and many other similar corporations. Whatever - sorry for the rant.

Just don't expect an FSBO to sell in a week. Be prepared to have it linger 3 + months. Hell, even in the past two years, many properties sold through the omnipotent brokers lingered for 3+ months. But if you price it right, there is a market for it out there. If you price it wrong, you're asking for trouble.

I sold my place without a broker. I had a broker call me to try to get me to list with him. I told him no. The next day he said that he had a buyer who wanted to see the place and was coming over that night! I'm sure he didn't have a serious buyer. I told him to shove it but he wanted full 6% and could only show on weekends and no website. Excuse me? he wouldn't take 4%. I ended up selling it to my neighbor.

I'm not going to get involved in the commission/fees part of this discussion, because my feeling is my clients feel my fees are just and I'm not going to change the mind of non-clients.

However, on FSBO:

I've said it before, but it always bears repeating for newbies: if you are going to FSBO spend the money on professional photography. It is a RARE amateur photographer who can light real estate interiors as well as people who do it for a living. That's a few hundred dollars that you will spend that you will get back in the sale price.

ali r.
{downtown broker}

i had a broker come in from a top 3 company and said that they would list my apartment exclusivly for 525k....i didnt sign with him and listed it on my own on the nytimes for 525k....it sold . 6% is a joke in the city........ do it yourself......

Ranting is fine - some nuggets of truth can be found inside the turbulence.

A few musings (not rants):

- "A broker can get more $$$ than a FSBO can" - in the aggregate, that's true. But NO broker can predict what any particular apartment will sell for, or how much better he / she will do than the FSBO.

- Overpriced listings - while some brokers will take over-priced listings, most won't. The last thing a broker wants is waste time on and throw money at a listing that may not lead to an eventual payoff, particularly in a soft market. And it's the seller, not the listing agent, that sets the price (admittedly with input from the agent).

- But I don't get the ranting that you're "locked out" of the market. People can and do sell on their own, all the time. But marketing properties is not as easy as some people think (it takes more than a CL ad and a few balloons), and pricing is crucial. Going FSBO takes some smarts and tons of work, but it's always an option. But it's no surprise that most brokers search for listings for their buyers in their broker database - with it's detailed photos, floorplans, pricing history, etc. - instead of pursuing FSBO's.

- Re compensation - interesting concept, but good luck putting together an algorithm to figure out how much brokers should be paid. Is a relatively quick sale more or less valuable than a prolonged one?

- The main issue re broker compensation is that we are never paid for most of the work we do. If I'm an IT Developer or a truck driver, I'm paid for every hour I put in, and I usually won't have my own costs (education, marketing, advertising, etc). As a Real Estate broker, I show many rental apartments to clients that never rent, and many apartments for sale to buyers that never buy. I've also had the pleasure of working with buyers for 3 - 6 months finding an apartment, and then they decide they're no longer interested. Not to mention the joy of getting to the end of a six month purchase cycle, and the Board rejects the client, who then decides to move on. No complaint here about the thousands of "non-revenue" hours I've logged, just to make the point that for better or for worse, Real Estate is a business where fees are only collected at the conclusion of a successful transaction, not for all the actual work performed.

johnrealestate1 - you chose the middleman occupation, so it would be totally ridiculous if you were paid as if you do real productive work. You make money off the properties that others invested in by inserting, forcefully I might add, between a buyer and seller. Oh, the mysteries of RE classified ads... brokers' database ... high science. Come on.

America is a great place - we all have options. Some people like to do things on their own, others like some assistance. As a previous poster said, occasionally people can sell their apartment on their own for the highest price ever in their building, and everything went swimmingly. But if things don't go as easily as expected, it's awfully easy to think "conspiracy theory" against the Real Estate cabal.

There's no cabal. It's just the monopolizing the process and pretending to be salvation. That's cutting others' options. America is about merit and resoursefullness, not about boiler room-type operations purporting to be helping hand.

Haven't used this website; claims to place FSBO ads for free on various sites (craiglist, backpage.com, etc.)
http://www.postlets.com/home.php

I think the brokers in NY enjoys the highest brokerage fee in the country and that is plenty greedy.

Ok, on a more balanced note, what is the time invested by RE brokers into their training and the average salary in NYC for the profession?

Eurocash, how do you explain that an L.A. broker is very happy getting $70K for selling a $2.8M mansion while in NY a broker get $60K for selling a $1M apartment(base on 6% commission). When you enlist a broker it's as good as offering him 3% guaranteed. He then put your property on a co brokers list and let others do the work Worst if he kept your property under cover for months and insisted that you had to lower the price drastically so he can get a kill at the full 6% commission.

"You may save 6%, but stats show FSBOS sell something like 10% below its value..."

Show me those statistics. I am sure all of the studies were sponsored by the real estate industry in order to defend their commission structure.

Since a specific apartment sells by owner, there is actually no way of knowing that an agent would have received 10% more for the place because the unit was not sold with the involvement of an agent. Because no two apartments are identical, any difference in price between comparable apartments cannot be conclusively attributed to whether an agent was involved in the sale.

I think the market sets the prices of all goods sold. The market price is agreed upon between a specific buyer and a specific seller, at one moment in time.

My feeling is that FSBOs can realize some advantage over an agent based sale but that they have to invest time and money in order to realize this advantage.

"I think the brokers in NY enjoys the highest brokerage fee in the country and that is plenty greedy."

trust me, this will change! And I hope to be there when it does!

Yes. I advertised on NY Times and several brokers called me and some attended my open house and offered to list my apartment as open listing. I offered them 2.5% commission if their client purchases my apartment. It works well for me so far. I have got an offer through a broker.

fsbo99, is right, advertise to offer 2.5% to the broker if they bring a buyer. This eliminates brokers not showing your apt, have a good lawyer and what you do is tell the broker with the interested buyer(sale price established) to call your lawyer. That's it..ohh and have a couple of open houses. Save thousands.

i, I saw the title and thought the owner was broke

Bump

Old thread...

@ 407PAS "Show me those statistics. I am sure all of the studies were sponsored by the real estate industry in order to defend their commission structure."

My answer to you, visit ACRIS (Automated City Register Information System) and run the numbers yourself. All of the statistics are derived from the New York City Office of The City Register and are public information.

Please stop being so skeptical, you may not understand where a statistic comes from and that's okay but to spew nonsense about things of which you know nothing about is plain irresponsible.

http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/Coverpage.dll/index

You could also co-broke through a broker friend who'll do it for free or a discount broker like hauseit.com ... you engage buyers' agents in the interbroker databases they like to use plus you get on all the websites a regular broker would charge you 6% to advertise on. Free to few hundred bucks vs $100k on avg in NYC ...