Homeowners Insurance for a NYC Co-Op: How much?

It is hard to say what insurance you should have without knowing your risk profile and personal wealth, etc. But, suffice it to say, this level of insurance leaves you significantly at risk. If the building was damaged by fire, water, etc., the co-op in most cases is responsible only for the common property, you generally would be responsible for rebuilding from the exterior walls in, including fixtures, plumbing, electric, appliances, walls, floors, etc. Give some thought as to what a total gut renovation down to the studs would cost, and that is about what level you need to avoid self-insurance. For a 3 BR, it is not $100K. And, could you replace every single thing you own in the apartment, from beds, counces, electronics, art, etc. for $50K? Probably not? Also, I don't know your personal wealth, but if that is the only liability insurance you have, I would want more than $1MM. It is cheap peace of mind.

Vicsing, I'm a high net worth personal insurance broker, so I can give some guidance here. First thing is the coop association insurance, while the doorman, maintenance guys, board of directors and your neighbors all may be very nice, when you have a large claim, remember it's the commercial insurance carrier that will be making the decisions. That being said, don't anticipate they will be there for you as a backstop. They won't. The master policy will pay for the shell of the building and rebuilding the common areas. If the bldg was to fall down, when you unit was delivered back to you, you would be looking at raw space. Studs in the wall, no interior walls, connection standpipes for the bathrooms, cement floor etc. Essentially your rebuilding from the "studs" in. For post war construction, a minimum of $300 a square foot, and depending on the quality of construction/materials, it may be higher. Pre War construction with plaster walls, crown molding, wainscotings, can easily start at $400 a foot. This is considered bldg personal property. Contents at $50,000, only if your replacing everything by shopping at Walmart. A woman's wardrobe can easily get to $50K. A rough guide for people in NYC making more than $250K per year, for every 1,000 square feet you have fully furnished, $200K in contents. ALE is pretty standard, a really good insurance company will provide ALE unlimited. Loss Assessment is not enough, should be $100K/$10K. $100K if the coop association runs out of coverage, and $10K if you are assessed a fee to make up for a coop association deductible on the commercial insurance policy. $500 deductible is too low, I believe you are underinsured, buy more insurance and take a higher deductible, like $1,000 or $2,500. It's a much better way to manage risk with more coverage. Also, with a good insurance carrier, if you have a loss over $50,000, they will waive your deductible. Sounds like you have insurance through a standard market, you know, the companies with a nice comforting tune that advertise on t.v. all the time. I work with high net worth carriers, like Chubb, Fireman's Fund, ACE and Chartis, so they work from a different perspective in terms of truly insuring someone to value, instead of getting you in the door at the cheapest price and booking the sale, regardless of whether the coverage is adequate. Now let me preface, I love these boards, I'm a novice at RE, but a pro and personal insurance, your going to get lots of uninformed responses refuting this data. It's like taking advice from someone on how to replace your car engine. Not because the person is a mechanic, but because they own a car and know how to drive. Last thing, and it couldn't be more true, with insurance, you get what you pay for. You pay a little, that's exactly what you should expect as a claims settlement. Good luck.

Tallisman - my home insurance policy is with Liberty Mutual (prop. replacement cost - 500+/sqft). Are they a nightmare to deal with if we need to make a claim? Are we better off switching to Chubb?

I won't say anything negative regarding a specific carrier, however, Chubb has a fantastic, let me say that again, FANTASTIC, reputation on how they work with clients and settle claims. Not everything is covered under a homeowners insurance contract, so there will always be room for some disappointment, but what is covered, Chubb usually goes above and beyond the call to bring you back to whole.

Followup question - why would I go through an insurance broker? My impression is that the quotes you get directly from ins. cos. are quite competitive?

have heard the same thing about chubb from our insurance broker followed by the statement that they would be 20-25% higher for similar coverage. it would seem that earlier statement about getting what you pay for seems true here.

I actually enjoy this question. To begin with, Chubb, FF, ACE and Chartis are not direct sellers, they only work through the brokerage model. You can't buy cover from them direclty. As an insurance broker, you are my client, I represent you and have a relationship with the insurance carriers. By representing you, I shop all my carriers for the best placement. In addition, and this is where the tire hits the street, I'm your advocate. When you have a claim, we don't put you on an 800 number to deal direclty with the carrier, we take the information, submit the claim, walk you through the entire process, negotiate on your behalf if the carrier is trying to cut corners. The two most important things for good insurance practices is a great carrier who has the broadest contract in the industry and really tough broker who doesn't easily settle if client isn't satisified with expected outcome. Now, compare that with the direct model, you buy insurance from someone who is an employee of the company. A) They have to send you to the claims center and don't get involved in the claim..... that's pretty much it.

are there any diff issues if one owns a condo (vs a coop)?

NYC10023 - We have Chubb, and have had two relatively small claims,(antique chandelier fell from ceiiling, shattered, damaged large glass table top) both handled very easily, settled for top dollar.

Also, as to contents, we have replacement value (which adjusts automatically every year), rather than the depreciated value which many companies insure for.

Unfortunately, insurance is for when things go bad, and I agree with Tallisman here - you get what you pay for.

One further example. Friends had a bad leak in their kitchen. The marble and cabinets in just one part of the kitchen were ruined. It would not really have been possible to get an exact match for the marble (cabinets would have been easier), and Chubb agreed to replace ALL the marble and cabinets to repair the kitchen "properly" .That was one of the examples that convinced us to go with Chubb.

Condo/Coop is a real estate designation, no difference in personal insurance contract on whether you have condo or coop, contracts and coverage are indentical. ph41, funny you should mention that, we had a client, heavy lighting fixture came loose from ceiling fixture,smashed onto granite, you can't match granite very well and all granite was replaced, carrier was Chartis.

Sounds like I should give you a call - do you have an email, Tallisman?

i actually had the same type of question, but only for a condo-

so from reading these posts i learned the condo is responsible for the common spaces and my unit up to the studs.

i am responsible for rebuilding the unit and the belongings.

are windows the buildings responsibility or mine?

Just an FYI for those who may not recognize the name Chartis, but Chartis = AIG (who changed its name for obvious reasons).

Yes, Chartis is AIG, one in the same. If we didn't have every confidence in their claim paying ability, we wouldn't recommend them and move our clients to an alternate carrier. We haven't seen a single instance where they didn't respond identical to their claims methodoly, pre-govt bailout. Freezer, think of doing a full gut renovation down to the studs, that's what you are responsible for plus everything you've personally brought into the unit, which is considered contents. Windows, you would have to check the by-laws, many times that's the condo/coop associations responsbility, however, if the windows were replaced by you or the previous owner(s) as a personal decision for improvements and betterments, then the responsbility may fall on you. The nice thing with a premiere insurance contract is if the bldg isn't paying for damaged windows, your carrier will. 10023, best email for me is tallisman45@yahoo and I'll reply with my work email to you directly. Best Regards

thanks, have 2 walls of floor to ceiling windows, could add up very quickly. as i guessed i do not have enough coverage even without the windows. have to increase.

This is a bit off-topic but does anyone have the answer to this question:

I would like to join the coop board of my building in Brooklyn. Is there any personal liability risk to doing this? Do board members ever get liability insurance coverage through the coop?
I'd like to join but want to make sure i have no additional personal liability.

Thanks!

each board member should be covered by a policy that the coop takes out. i would expect that almost all coops have it. there could be idiot boards or management companies who don't know or forget.

Just note that there is no insurance for criminal acts, and there has been a case in Brooklyn where Board Members were personally criminally charged by the Brooklyn DA over the death of a child falling out a window for not properly administrating the window guard law.

Also, in areas of bad faith, self dealing, breach of fiduciary duty, shareholder derivative suits, etc. many D&O carriers may deny coverage.

Ouch. it's too costly. try home owners insurance houston and see the difference.

Can someone recommend the best website to get competitive quotes for apt insurance? Thanks.

tallisman are you still around? are you willing to send me your email. i need a new agent.

Talisman would you be able to send me your email as well We just bought a new condos midtown east side

Tallisman, I'd appreciate if you'd send me your e-mail as well. Currently have a Travelers policy and am not even sure if it's well-priced given the above; also want to make sure my coverage if anything is too much, not too little. Thanks for all your avice!

Trying to understand what is the average pricing for various parameters like the original poster mentioned? It seems hard to get a clear cut picture of what is a good/fair/average price or even a way to comparison shop.

OP stated:
1) Building Property Protection: $100K (deductible $500)
2) Personal Property: $50k (deductible $500)
3) Additional Living exp: upto 12 months
4) Liability Protection: $1 million
5) Loss assessment $1k each occurrence (deductible $250)
6) Annual premium: $500/year

I'm paying $800/year currently for signifantly less coverage through Naransgett(sp) Bay.
Insurance pricing seems to be one of those areas where its hard to get published prices by each company w/o having to get a customized quote from each one.

Talisman -- please also send me your e-mail. I tried using tallisman45@yahoo as you noted above, but after adding the necessary ".com" I got a bounce back.

your quote should be under $400

tx for ballpark.
anybody have some good insurance brokers they can suggest?

Here's a recent quote I received for condo HO6 homeowners' insurance for 1000 sqft unit, market value around $560,000.

Annual Premium is quoted as $1500:

1) Interior/Fixtures Coverage - 300,000 (replacement cost)
2) Possessions Coverage - 75,000
3) Personal Liability - 1,000,000
4) Loss of Use - Actual Cost, until repairs complete
5) Deductible - 1,000

Thoughts? Is this how much Chubb/Travelers/ACE/Fireman's tend to cost or do one/some of the drivers above depart from customary coverage?

I have Chubb, 2BR about 800sqft

Annual Premium: $2466

1) Home - $400,000
2) contents - $250,000
3) Personal Liability - 1,000,000
4) Loss of Use - Actual Cost, until repairs complete
5) Deductible - 1,000

Tallisman: You still around? Would love to get your email add since I'm looking for a new broker

Folks -- I can help. I fully endorse what Tallisman says above. Condo/Coop Insurance is inherently complicated for many reasons. Condos/Coops in New York City are even trickier. Many good carriers have left the market after Sandy and won't write business anymore.

By way of introduction, I am an independent broker and president of my firm Prana Risk. I can help explain to you the differences between the standard/middle market and the more higher end products. I also work with AIG, Fireman's Fund, Chartis, and Chubb and they are all great higher end products.

I also have access to many middle market products. That being said, there are some large gaps with middle market products that are especially relevant in higher valuation apartments in locations like NYC.

Here is an example of one gap:
Most condo/coop policies are written on a named perils basis for dwelling (i.e. studs in coverage). What that means is that the peril has to be one of 17 or so covered perils in order for the claim to be paid. In the even of a claim, the burden of proof is on you, the insured, to show it is one of the covered perils. Now, to contrast, in a standard Homeowners policy, the dwelling is covered under what is called a "special form" -- which means everything is covered unless it is specifically excluded. This difference is HUGE and shifts the burden of proof on the insurance company.

The only way to get this "special form" coverage on the dwelling portion of your condo is to go with one of the higher end products. The products that are advertised on TV will not cut it. Nor will most brokers (sad to say, but true).

Now, most condo owners would view their asset equivalent to a Home in terms of worth, value, etc. Like a home, your condo/coop is likely your most valued possession. Why then insure it any less than if it were your home?

At the end of the day, I can walk you through a myriad of choices and explain the pros/cons of the product you are purchasing. More often than not, an insurance purchase is often rushed and poorly understood which can lead to unsatisfactory outcomes. My primary goal is to get you to fully understand the product you are purchasing, and to ensure you are comfortable with that product. I also try and assess your own personal risk tolerance. Sometimes I find that people are ok with the standard product -- and I am very pleased to offer it when they understand what they are purchasing. And the same goes true for a higher end product. It's just a matter of choice. But unlike a car purchase -- there is no test driving allowed here (and we hope there will never be one!).

Kindly get in touch for a no obligation consultation.

Best wishes!
Prana Risk
www.prana-risk.com
info@prana-risk.com
917-438-0984

I bought Amica home insurance, after it was recommended several times by Consumer Reports over the years. It's top rated in the May 2014 issue. (based on reader survey/satisfaction). I've never had to use it, though.

CR also top rates USAA (but i think you have to have a military connection) and in 2009 Chubb was right up there, too, but isn't mentioned in the 2014 survey.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/consumer-reports-amica-usaa--auto-owners-among-top-home-insurance-companies-in-new-survey-253869651.html.

Agreed that USAA and Amica are good companies -- for the middle market. Their are many "good" companies out there, which is not usually the issue. Furthermore, for NYC condo/coop owners, you may find the middle market not sufficient for the unusually high valuation of NYC condo/coop valuations.

Unfortunately, many people make an insurance purchase based on incomplete information and do not completely understand the product they have purchased. This is inherent in the complexity of the industry & products -- and the fact that you only "really" know if you bought the "right" product after you have a large claim.

Some good advice is to work with a trustworthy & experienced broker who can explain the differences in coverages and who can shop around for you. Your condo/coop/home is perhaps your largest asset and your insurance placement should be commensurate with your risk appetite. Also, a good broker has a fiduciary duty to represent you, unlike the agent who takes the call when you buy insurance yourself.

Kindly get in touch for a no obligation consultation.

Best wishes!
Prana Risk
www.prana-risk.com
info@prana-risk.com
917-438-0984

Thanks all very helpful information that saved me a lot time.

Hi Prana Risk,
Are you still in the Coop insurance business?
Shopping for a Studio insurance in a Co-op.
140chao

Hello NYC community. Yes, we are very much open for business and take pride in educating our constomers on all matters insurance. Your home is one of your greatest assets and the NYC insurance market is complex. I (owner) have personally been involved in the insurance industry for over 20 years and happy to answer any questions you have.

Please reach out via the contact information below.

Prana Risk
www.prana-risk.com
info@prana-risk.com
917-438-0984 (Landline)
212-828-4522 (Cell/Text)