Advice on gut prewar renovation

Is this a coop? Are you sure they're going to let you move the kitchen, add a bath, etc.?

You should definitely use an architect if you're moving things around.

Count on spending at least $250k to do what you want to do, and that's if you're very lucky.

Plan on at least $200+/sq.ft. for high end (and that is probably a fairly low estimate, IMHO). Also, is this the first renovation you will have done? If so, professionals (architect, GC) are probably a very good idea.

We did gut renovation on pre-war classic six. From soup to nuts... central air, skyline windows, whole house media system, all new electrical and plumbing and kitchen/bathroom fixtures, skim coating, replacing bad areas of oak flooring, moving a few walls, a good deal of custom cabinetry...

After interviewing and research we had architect www.plattdana.com and contractor Jeffrey Wong uniformteamwork@verizon.net. Loved both. Elegant, simple lines, very fine design sensibility, high end work, on time, nice people, good with details, not outrageously priced.

We went crazy on stuff that we would never later wish we had done when the flat was a construction zone. Anything that could be added later, if necessary, can be. That was our approach.

that's my two cents.

"opening up living/dining"

STOP THE "OPEN KITCHEN" MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah it's a coop - but the stuff we have in mind seems to have been done in some other units (according to the super). Matt - we are only thinking of making the living/dining area a bigger space (two separate adjacent spaces right now) - I agree open kitchen is a clear no-go in prewar reno!

First, learn the lingo and I guarantee your "bulk park cost estimate" will come in lower.

A good architect will manage the project and keep your GC in check. Your board will require an architect anyway. Ditch the designer.

It sounds like you want to keep costs down so I would establish the budget first (save 20% off the top for overruns), then bring in the architect to see what is feasible.

love chien dao studio - chiendao@gmail.com or chien@Chiendao.com -- can discuss more if you want about him -- redoing a prewar kitchen/bath with him now

Hi pre_war_reno,

I am a Professional Project Manager and would be interested in talking to you about your project. I've helped dozens of New Yorkers navigate the renovation process: from coping with the building’s alteration agreement package to choosing the architect, to filing for permits, choosing materials and putting together the homeowners’ construction team—I coordinate it all. As Project Manager, I lead the select team of tradespeople including a kitchen and bath Designer, a GC, plumber, electrician, painter, carpenter – whatever is needed. As a licensed Home Improvement Contractor, I understand how to get things done!
Please visit my website www.icandothatforyou.com and contact me directly!

I had icandothatforyou handle the renovations on my pre-war co-op and I recommend them highly. The owner, Diane is a pleasure to deal with, professional,reliable and never dropped the ball. She also has great problem solving skills and dealt with all sorts of unforseen issues in a proactive manner.

Thanks everyone for the input!

GILLY - seems what you have done is very similar to what my plans are, would love to pick your brain on some of the things you are mentioning. Would you mind sending me a quick message at prewarreno@gmail.com so I can send you some more detailed questions?

pre_war_reno- I can reccomend Design by Francois, LLC.

http://www.francoistenenbaum.com/

He's done a lot of high end projects including UES townhouses, Tribeca penthouse loft, UES and UWS penthouses, etc.

He works with architect, contractors, etc. - a good designer will do the concepts and drawings and manage the project from start to finish.

Architect is essential. Forget designers and project managers. This is a heavy lift and you need the real thing. Hire the architect for construction oversight in addition to design development, detailed construction drawings that specify finishes, bidding, permits, expediter, GC bid review and GC selection. Skimp on this and you will pay through the nose later if you aren't a pro at renovations.

I can comfortably recommend my architect if you like--please email me. kwest@nyc.rr.com. I've described in other threads the incredible value she added to my gut reno.

Without central air, for high end, I'd estimate $300K for 2.5 baths, 2 bedrooms. That is VERY ballpark. Central a/c can cost you another $100K. I'm concerned about moving the kitchen. Most coops will no longer allow "wet-over-dry" meaning putting a kitchen or bath over space that was previously dry area. If this is key to you, you better get a nod from the board and/or building engineer that such a move is possible. Do not rely on the super for this. Just because it was done in the past does NOT mean it is permissible now. Moving that kitchen will be a MAJOR expense so carefully consider if you really need to do that to make the place work for you.

If you start replacing all floors and windows and re-wiring the entire apartment, you are also going to add significantly to the expense. Realize it is going to be difficult if not impossible to recover the renovation expenses through a resale any time in the near future.

I've gone the GC-only route, with architect for drawings only. It's worked out okay, not costing more than with an architect. But-only-because-I'm-a-glutton-for-punishment.

How far into this process are you at this point? What is your definition of high end finishes?

When was the last time it was renovated by previous owners?

I would recommend that you make two lists: The Essentials and The wish list.

Then, I would tell everyone what your budget is. Don't let them determine it for you.

Once you have your two lists, you'll need to put together a SCOPE OF WORK for your walk through with the individuals you are considering to hire. Make certain you receive detailed, written quotes from all.

This will help you to get a handle on the budget before you start hiring your team.

When you get the written quotes, make sure you are comparing apples to apples.
If it's not in the quote, the contractor has not included it and it will be an upcharge somewhere down the line...or a fight.

Pay attention to who asks the right questions during the walk through.

Take note of how long it takes for the contractor, architect, etc. to get back to you with their estimates.

No matter how highly recommended someone is, if they don't return your phone calls promptly during the first phase, that's a big red flag. There are so many questions to be asked and answered during this process. You need a GREAT communicator.

There are many ways to approach your project. Do you want to be hands on? Or do you want your hand held?

Perhaps you only need an architect for sign offs. It may be that what you really need is an engineer, a master plumber, electrician and HVAC pro, etc. In all cases, go to the people who know how to produce your dream, not just design it. And, then you get an architect to sign off.

Are you planning on reinventing the wheel, or do you think you could choose cabinetry and fixtures yourself with a bit of help?

To determine if you can move a kitchen and a bath...you should start with a plumbing survey.
Are you going to go the SubZero/Wolf route?

You will need to have the electrical surveyed as well.
I also recommend that you deal directly with a kitchen and bath designer, someone who knows how a kitchen should work, not merely how it looks.

Hope this has been helpful.

prewar,

other than your architect or your engineers/consultants, i would not recommend telling the contractors what your budget number before their first bids come in. they should be able to design something that meets your number and help you define what you mean by 'high end'. For complete gut renovations, we separate general areas (about 200-250/sf) and minimum of 500/sf up to 1000/sf for high end kitchen and baths (including all appliances and fixtures). This figure sounds high but if you're getting custom millwork, subzeros, dornbrachts, stone counters etc. the numbers start to add up.

FWIW, we did not disclose our budget to anyone including architect. We didn't want people shoe-horning plans and bids into our budget to get the job and then find ways to get the price up once we retained them. My ideal situation was to get everything we wanted at a price the GC felt was of his choosing. Holding the GC to the agreement later was greatly simplified since everything harkened back to two things: (1) the contract included excruciatingly detailed drawings that the GC signed and accepted as being fully contained within his bid; and (2) the GC and I shook hands at the beginning when I signed the contract and I said to him explicitly, "You understand I am not negotiating with you. I am accepting your bid at the full amount you are asking. In return I expect everything in this bid will be executed perfectly and if it isn't, you're going to smile and say no problem in correctly whatever is even the slightest bit off. There is no claiming you didn't see something in here, that you misjudged something. This is your price and I'm accepting it. Period. Do we understand each other and agree? "

My GC was a basically honest man. As the job progressed, he did indeed come to see he underbid some items and omitted others from his bid because he failed to see them. On the other hand, I knew he was charging too much for some items in the job from the beginning, but I didn't haggle with him over it. In the end I knew it would even out. It wasn't going to become a game of gotchya with each of us trying to chisel the other.

Another key was the "judge" role played by the architect. She used the GC on other jobs and he wanted to maintain that relationship. In turn, the architect had professional relationships with people we knew that she wanted to maintain. Everyone had a stake in the job going well. When the GC got off track in my opinion, it wasn't up to me to tell him. The architect, who we paid a construction oversight fee worth every cent, would step in and play mediator/judge/ fixer. Who was I to tell the GC how a wall should be built? But if I didn't like how something looked, the architect had the credibility to tell the GC the wall was off spec.

Set expectations early in the process and make everyone feel they are getting a fair deal. Drive a brutal bargain on the GC's price and you are going to get a grumpy GC no matter what the economy is now. Don't seek to exploit people looking for work. Be fair and decent and they'll treat you the same. And the job will be a success.

Our job finished on time (well, within 2 weeks) and within 3% of budget and this is for an apartment that was practically stripped to the bones and rebuilt.

Guys - your input has been really helpful, thank you so much. The things I take away from this are (1) forget about designer/project manager overhead but focus on getting a great architect, (2) leverage the architect to select a GC and oversee the project (so everyone feels they have something to lose for a job done poorly), and (3) stick to a budget not by squeezing the last dollar out of the team but by focusing on those renovations that will add most to the resale value. All awesome advice.

By the way, just returned from the Architectural Digest Home Design Show. The exhibits themselves are just OK - but the section where you can get personal design advice is great. A bunch of architects there who you can talk to for half hour going through your renovation ideas, floorplans, etc.

your item # 2 is simply not a premise you want to start off with when planning a project such as yours. while at times(rush schedule, incomplete plans)may call for a cozy architect/GC relationship, it's not always benefical to the owner for a the GC and architect to be "so familar", if you get my drift. with a good set of plans and specs(which is what you're paying for anyway) you should be able to find 2-3 qualified GC firm who are honest and prepared to do the "right" project. I'm one of those folks. after 35 years of building and over 1000 projects completed I'll confidently give you my email address rmaletta@nyc.rr.com, cell # 917-886-3391 and the references you'll need.

hey, does anyone how much would an architect charge for a DOB completion sign off?

hkac1518- presently, do you have the architect "of record" retained for the project? was the project a "self-cert" by the architect? typically architects and licensed tradespeople hesitate to "sign off" others people work. if you like to discuss this further contact me @ rmaletta@nyc.rr.com, I'll be glad to help if I can.

Hkac1518- in answer to your question starting with ~15k-20k for a minimum design with an inexpesive architect firm like Architectural Clinic that specilise in basic construction - just what required by law drawings (with filing with DOB)

http://martinsafrenaia.com/

The phone is: 1-800-7permit