I'm looking to renovate an "original condition" prewar (1941) Upper East Side condo, about 1500 sq ft: (1) upgrade electrical throughout apartment -- make sure current available is 100 amps if possible, change fuse box to switch-style circuit breaker, install new wiring, add outlets, allow for overhead light fixtures, etc. (2) kitchen (about 8x9) -- replace everything (appliances, cabinets,... [more]
I'm looking to renovate an "original condition" prewar (1941) Upper East Side condo, about 1500 sq ft:
(1) upgrade electrical throughout apartment -- make sure current available is 100 amps if possible, change fuse box to switch-style circuit breaker, install new wiring, add outlets, allow for overhead light fixtures, etc.
(2) kitchen (about 8x9) -- replace everything (appliances, cabinets, counters, floor, etc.)
(3) two bathrooms -- replace toilet, sink, medicine cabinet, and wall tiles ... but keep original basket-weave tile floors (which are in very good shape) and probably tubs (also in good shape)
(4) dining alcove -- restore doorway in a wall that was closed up by previous owner, and install French doors in the restored doorway (and each of the other two doorways) of the dining alcove
(5) two bedrooms -- update closets, re-think master bedroom furniture & design, install built-in bookshelves for second bedroom (doubling as a study), furnish second bedroom
(6) all rooms -- sand and refinish floors, skim coat & paint walls & ceiling
Based on all the StreetEasy threads I've read so far -- thanks to everyone who's commented on them! -- I *think* I should focus on finding an interior designer (with an architect on the side to handle DOB and similar requirements). I'm not changing the size of any rooms or the position/existence of any walls, and I’m very VERY bad at visualizing whether things & shapes & colors will go -- or not go -- together well.
On the other hand, the electrical upgrade is going to be a major part of these renovations, and I think it's likely I'd also have to move plumbing/gas piping when re-doing the kitchen. Perhaps I'm stereotyping, but I'd be nervous relying on an interior designer -- rather than a hard-headed architect/engineering type -- to make sure those aspects are accomplished properly.
I'm budgeting about $175K for the entire renovation, knowing that cost overruns could take that up about another 15% or so. I like quality things, but the whole Wolf/Sub-Zero/Miele cult leaves me cold, so I'm not looking for what others would consider a "high-end" or "luxury" renovation, just a very solid mid-range. And I'm planning to live in the renovated apartment for a long time (knock on wood), not flip it.
I'm happy to do a lot of preliminary legwork myself -- e.g. looking at potential appliances, bathroom fixtures, etc. -- if given some guidance on what colors & styles & other externals will fit into the overall apartment design. However, I definitely need someone who will actively oversee the entire renovation project on my behalf. My daily commute is 90 minutes each way, so unless the contractors are going to show up at 6 AM I can't talk to them to resolve any problems, and I can't run to the condo at lunchtime to wait for deliveries.
So ... would you recommend that I engage an architect? Or an (experienced) interior designer? Or an architecture + design firm?
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Response by Primer05
about 15 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
Bach,
I will tell you that your budget is very tight. Even for mid range. Is it doable? Probably. I have the perfect person for you. They have an architect for drawings and they are designers with a very strong backround in architecture.They are also very reasonably priced.
You can email me at primerenovations@mac.com
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Response by bramstar
about 15 years ago
Posts: 1909
Member since: May 2008
You are talking about a gut, or at least close to it. $175K is very aspirational, IMO.
Kitchen and bathrooms could easily run $25K-$30K each. Electric upgrade can skyrocket, especially if you need to bring it from the basement (as is the case in many estate-condition units. That could run you around $50K.
Paint/replaster could run to $15K (more or less, depending on condition of walls).
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Response by Primer05
about 15 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
He is right, but again it is doable with a lot of your running around. One of my clients just did her apartment for a little more then $100 sq ft. I didnt think it was possible but it happened and it really looks very nice.
As far as electrical, I have not come across any building in 10 years that let us bring more electrical up from the basement, they dont allow it and you have to use what you have
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Response by kylewest
about 15 years ago
Posts: 4455
Member since: Aug 2007
FWIW: budget is not reasonable once you include architect/designer fee and expeditor for permits. Those alone will run about $25,000 if you include construction oversight which I highly recommend. If you go with nice GE Profile appliances or the like in kitchen, you'll be lucky to save $5,000 on total cost of job versus buying Liebherr fridge/Thermador range/Bosch DW /Viking convec-micro. In scheme of things, that isn't going to be what makes the difference.
Your major cost is electric, kitchen, 2 baths. If you truly need to rewire apt, then all the walls will be getting ripped open. I cannot imagine you'll be able to do the job without replacing all mouldings for bases, and door frames assuming crowns are fine. The doors may have 1000 layers of paint on them and will have to either be stripped or replaced--either is going to cost. Here's my estimate, and I'm usually pretty good:
Kitchen: $40,000+
Baths: $50,000
Electrical: $30,000 (if building power is greater than your box and you can increase power by just changing connection to box itself from the riser, it is doable without much expense--I know because I did; went from 40 to 60 amps or something for a 1 bdrm.)
Walls/paint (which will need not just skim coat but extensive repair from new electric work): $30,000
Closet customization (6 closets est.): $7000
Lighting throughout (can vary widely depending on your taste, selection, #'s): $10,000+
Archit/Design/Exped (incl. construction oversight): $25,000
This much is $192K.
Now add for floors, mouldings, rough carpentry and finish carpentry, doors, new AC units, plumbing upgrades if needed...
If I were you, I'd budget $250,000 and then keep a super tight reign on costs and be pleasantly surprised if it comes in lower, which it could. But I prefer to begin with worst case scenarios. I wouldn't disclose this worst-case number to anyone, but I'd be prepared financially for it just in case.
Personally, I'd prefer an architect with strong design skills unless you want the person to be picking out furniture. But you need a super top-notch set of construction drawings to keep the job on track from the start. Do NOT scrimp on drawings. DO NOT SCRIMP ON DRAWINGS. I can't say that enough. Take the time to find your finish selections and specify every one in the drawing that the contractor bids on. Make the contractor incorporate the drawings into the contract so there is never a debate about what is included in the price. Every switch type by brand, moulding model numbers, door hinges and knobs, etc should be specified--not "to be determined" later. This is because when you later say you want the nickel plated hinge, the GC will tell you that hinge is much harder to install for a zillion reasons and will require a change order of $100 per door. This will happen over and over. Drawings can obviate these issues which are the cause of 90% of conflict with GC's.
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Response by NWT
about 15 years ago
Posts: 6643
Member since: Sep 2008
Primer05, I believe you about most buildings not allowing you to run more power up, but here's what my building did. It could work in other buildings too.
Somebody doing a reno on an upper floor with central air or an electric oven needed more power. The building let them run a 6" conduit up from the cellar all the way to the top, though the service hallways, with a huge junction box at every floor. They paid for it all, and branched off at their floor. Now anybody with direct access to the service hall can add power relatively inexpensively. That first renovator paid big-time, of course, what with drilling holes through the floors, etc., but they got what they wanted.
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Response by nyc10023
about 15 years ago
Posts: 7614
Member since: Nov 2008
What hasn't been discussed here is economy of scale. You only need 1 kitchen/apt, for example. In your example, KW - it doesn't seem like there's that much diff. between renovating a 5room apt, 6room or 7room.
NWT: :)
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Response by Primer05
about 15 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
NWT, they were very lucky, I would say 99% would not allow it, but it is great for them
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Response by kylewest
about 15 years ago
Posts: 4455
Member since: Aug 2007
Nyc10023: You have a valid point. Renovating bedrooms is practically "free" compared to a bathroom. Honestly, what are you typically going to do? Floor refinish, paint, redo closet doors and/or interior. That would it for most people. Very inexpensive. You can "renovate" 3-4 bedrooms for under $20,000. But no way you are getting a quality bathroom reno for under $15,000 and more typical is 3 times that since you usually buy nice hardware, need electrical and plumbing work, new sheetrock and tub replacement, plus fixtures...it really adds up. Once trades are involved, costs sky rocket. If you can eliminate electrical and plumbing, which most people cannot, you save a fortune. But it isn't possible usually.
And agree with the other posters- $100/sq foot is very low for reno costs now.
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Response by Primer05
about 15 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
Kylewest with another spot on post. I dont think anybody would believe how much money I pay my trades, electrician, plumber, millguy, glassguy, fllor guy, etc. It all adds up. A bedroom typically is just my men, it doesnt cost me much so I dont charge much but if we need to install sconces and hire an licensed electricain, which we do thats another story
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Response by kylewest
about 15 years ago
Posts: 4455
Member since: Aug 2007
Primer, what people have to realize is where costs are generated and work with that. For example, if all they want is the electrician to install a button on the door frame so when the closet is opened the light goes on, they'll be shocked to see that little light will cost them hundreds of dollars. But is the electrician is at the site adding wiring for sconces, moving a light switch, running electric wires through a newly erected wall, etc, then adding the switch doesn't cost as much because it takes 20 minutes and the electrician is already on site. Similarly, few understand how difficult it is to properly install glass tiles. You may buy them at a bargain somewhere, but the real cost is the tremendous effort and time it takes to get the lines and spacing straight. No tile is more unforgiving of tiny mistakes. So if the contract with the GC said $x for backsplash standard tile, and then customer wants glass tile, there's gonna be a fight when the customer sees the change order will be $3x for the backsplash. That is why I say to people DO YOUR SELECTIONS UP FRONT and include them in the drawings that are bid on.
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Response by Primer05
about 15 years ago
Posts: 2103
Member since: Jul 2009
You are correct. Sometimes I will give several prices if the client doesn't know what they will go with. I have never asked for an extra if it involved a different tile or anything like it. Does it cost me more to install it? Yes . The way i look at it is if someone is going to give you 100k plus to do their renovation it's not a big deal. As what you are saying, if anyone is not the site already it will be cheaper then if they are not. The same thing could be said about free items. If I am doing a full gut renovation I am not going to charge my client more if they need an extra light installed.
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Response by BachFan
about 15 years ago
Posts: 3
Member since: Jan 2011
Thanks to everyone for your input.
Yes, I'd neglected to mention that my estimate didn't include whatever I'd pay the architect/designer ... so the actual "total" budget was actually about $210K (estimating $35K for architect/designer fees). But I HAD completely forgotten that I'd have to replaster (as well as paint) the walls after the electrical work, so I'll nudge that total up by another $15K.
OTOH, I doubt the electrical will run as much as $50K ... at least one apartment in the same line on a higher floor has upgraded its electrical, so I think -- though I'm going to chat with the building's super to confirm -- that I shouldn't have to bring anything up from the basement myself.
And kylewest and Primer05, thanks for your off-line recommendations via e-mail!
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Response by nycpartime
about 15 years ago
Posts: 4
Member since: May 2010
i am currently renovating an uws apt and am using an architect who is a designer as well. small firm, very personable and they charge by the hour so they will go with whatever type of materials I want. Needless to say we have spent quite a lot of time on the drawings (mine are construction and placement of furniture) and i am hoping there will be no changes and no surprises once construction starts. the first phase of this process has been a long one and my plans will hopefully go to DOB within next few weeks but it has been 5 months. After the drawings were complete our architect got one rough bid to see if we were comfortable with ball park figure, which we were, but if we hadn't been it would have been back to drawing board. You can cut expenses by going in knowing exactly what you want with the pay by the hour billing. We currently own a small one bedroom in the neighborhood but we are from out of state so will have to rely on this firm to push things along and have been pleased so far. if you are interested in who I am using you can email me since it sounds like this firm would be great for you. good luck. ruahs@yahoo.com
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Response by CAPITALcraft
about 15 years ago
Posts: 98
Member since: Mar 2010
BachFan - I do not think you should feel you cannot use a designer for your project. Based on your budget and proposed work I believe this is the best route for you. I know several with many years of experience. I am not against getting in an architect who is a designer also (stated by nycpartime)as plan B.
Bach,
I will tell you that your budget is very tight. Even for mid range. Is it doable? Probably. I have the perfect person for you. They have an architect for drawings and they are designers with a very strong backround in architecture.They are also very reasonably priced.
You can email me at primerenovations@mac.com
You are talking about a gut, or at least close to it. $175K is very aspirational, IMO.
Kitchen and bathrooms could easily run $25K-$30K each. Electric upgrade can skyrocket, especially if you need to bring it from the basement (as is the case in many estate-condition units. That could run you around $50K.
Paint/replaster could run to $15K (more or less, depending on condition of walls).
He is right, but again it is doable with a lot of your running around. One of my clients just did her apartment for a little more then $100 sq ft. I didnt think it was possible but it happened and it really looks very nice.
As far as electrical, I have not come across any building in 10 years that let us bring more electrical up from the basement, they dont allow it and you have to use what you have
FWIW: budget is not reasonable once you include architect/designer fee and expeditor for permits. Those alone will run about $25,000 if you include construction oversight which I highly recommend. If you go with nice GE Profile appliances or the like in kitchen, you'll be lucky to save $5,000 on total cost of job versus buying Liebherr fridge/Thermador range/Bosch DW /Viking convec-micro. In scheme of things, that isn't going to be what makes the difference.
Your major cost is electric, kitchen, 2 baths. If you truly need to rewire apt, then all the walls will be getting ripped open. I cannot imagine you'll be able to do the job without replacing all mouldings for bases, and door frames assuming crowns are fine. The doors may have 1000 layers of paint on them and will have to either be stripped or replaced--either is going to cost. Here's my estimate, and I'm usually pretty good:
Kitchen: $40,000+
Baths: $50,000
Electrical: $30,000 (if building power is greater than your box and you can increase power by just changing connection to box itself from the riser, it is doable without much expense--I know because I did; went from 40 to 60 amps or something for a 1 bdrm.)
Walls/paint (which will need not just skim coat but extensive repair from new electric work): $30,000
Closet customization (6 closets est.): $7000
Lighting throughout (can vary widely depending on your taste, selection, #'s): $10,000+
Archit/Design/Exped (incl. construction oversight): $25,000
This much is $192K.
Now add for floors, mouldings, rough carpentry and finish carpentry, doors, new AC units, plumbing upgrades if needed...
If I were you, I'd budget $250,000 and then keep a super tight reign on costs and be pleasantly surprised if it comes in lower, which it could. But I prefer to begin with worst case scenarios. I wouldn't disclose this worst-case number to anyone, but I'd be prepared financially for it just in case.
Personally, I'd prefer an architect with strong design skills unless you want the person to be picking out furniture. But you need a super top-notch set of construction drawings to keep the job on track from the start. Do NOT scrimp on drawings. DO NOT SCRIMP ON DRAWINGS. I can't say that enough. Take the time to find your finish selections and specify every one in the drawing that the contractor bids on. Make the contractor incorporate the drawings into the contract so there is never a debate about what is included in the price. Every switch type by brand, moulding model numbers, door hinges and knobs, etc should be specified--not "to be determined" later. This is because when you later say you want the nickel plated hinge, the GC will tell you that hinge is much harder to install for a zillion reasons and will require a change order of $100 per door. This will happen over and over. Drawings can obviate these issues which are the cause of 90% of conflict with GC's.
Primer05, I believe you about most buildings not allowing you to run more power up, but here's what my building did. It could work in other buildings too.
Somebody doing a reno on an upper floor with central air or an electric oven needed more power. The building let them run a 6" conduit up from the cellar all the way to the top, though the service hallways, with a huge junction box at every floor. They paid for it all, and branched off at their floor. Now anybody with direct access to the service hall can add power relatively inexpensively. That first renovator paid big-time, of course, what with drilling holes through the floors, etc., but they got what they wanted.
What hasn't been discussed here is economy of scale. You only need 1 kitchen/apt, for example. In your example, KW - it doesn't seem like there's that much diff. between renovating a 5room apt, 6room or 7room.
NWT: :)
NWT, they were very lucky, I would say 99% would not allow it, but it is great for them
Nyc10023: You have a valid point. Renovating bedrooms is practically "free" compared to a bathroom. Honestly, what are you typically going to do? Floor refinish, paint, redo closet doors and/or interior. That would it for most people. Very inexpensive. You can "renovate" 3-4 bedrooms for under $20,000. But no way you are getting a quality bathroom reno for under $15,000 and more typical is 3 times that since you usually buy nice hardware, need electrical and plumbing work, new sheetrock and tub replacement, plus fixtures...it really adds up. Once trades are involved, costs sky rocket. If you can eliminate electrical and plumbing, which most people cannot, you save a fortune. But it isn't possible usually.
I can reccomend Design by Francois, LLC - www.francoistenenbaum.com
And agree with the other posters- $100/sq foot is very low for reno costs now.
Kylewest with another spot on post. I dont think anybody would believe how much money I pay my trades, electrician, plumber, millguy, glassguy, fllor guy, etc. It all adds up. A bedroom typically is just my men, it doesnt cost me much so I dont charge much but if we need to install sconces and hire an licensed electricain, which we do thats another story
Primer, what people have to realize is where costs are generated and work with that. For example, if all they want is the electrician to install a button on the door frame so when the closet is opened the light goes on, they'll be shocked to see that little light will cost them hundreds of dollars. But is the electrician is at the site adding wiring for sconces, moving a light switch, running electric wires through a newly erected wall, etc, then adding the switch doesn't cost as much because it takes 20 minutes and the electrician is already on site. Similarly, few understand how difficult it is to properly install glass tiles. You may buy them at a bargain somewhere, but the real cost is the tremendous effort and time it takes to get the lines and spacing straight. No tile is more unforgiving of tiny mistakes. So if the contract with the GC said $x for backsplash standard tile, and then customer wants glass tile, there's gonna be a fight when the customer sees the change order will be $3x for the backsplash. That is why I say to people DO YOUR SELECTIONS UP FRONT and include them in the drawings that are bid on.
You are correct. Sometimes I will give several prices if the client doesn't know what they will go with. I have never asked for an extra if it involved a different tile or anything like it. Does it cost me more to install it? Yes . The way i look at it is if someone is going to give you 100k plus to do their renovation it's not a big deal. As what you are saying, if anyone is not the site already it will be cheaper then if they are not. The same thing could be said about free items. If I am doing a full gut renovation I am not going to charge my client more if they need an extra light installed.
Thanks to everyone for your input.
Yes, I'd neglected to mention that my estimate didn't include whatever I'd pay the architect/designer ... so the actual "total" budget was actually about $210K (estimating $35K for architect/designer fees). But I HAD completely forgotten that I'd have to replaster (as well as paint) the walls after the electrical work, so I'll nudge that total up by another $15K.
OTOH, I doubt the electrical will run as much as $50K ... at least one apartment in the same line on a higher floor has upgraded its electrical, so I think -- though I'm going to chat with the building's super to confirm -- that I shouldn't have to bring anything up from the basement myself.
And kylewest and Primer05, thanks for your off-line recommendations via e-mail!
i am currently renovating an uws apt and am using an architect who is a designer as well. small firm, very personable and they charge by the hour so they will go with whatever type of materials I want. Needless to say we have spent quite a lot of time on the drawings (mine are construction and placement of furniture) and i am hoping there will be no changes and no surprises once construction starts. the first phase of this process has been a long one and my plans will hopefully go to DOB within next few weeks but it has been 5 months. After the drawings were complete our architect got one rough bid to see if we were comfortable with ball park figure, which we were, but if we hadn't been it would have been back to drawing board. You can cut expenses by going in knowing exactly what you want with the pay by the hour billing. We currently own a small one bedroom in the neighborhood but we are from out of state so will have to rely on this firm to push things along and have been pleased so far. if you are interested in who I am using you can email me since it sounds like this firm would be great for you. good luck. ruahs@yahoo.com
BachFan - I do not think you should feel you cannot use a designer for your project. Based on your budget and proposed work I believe this is the best route for you. I know several with many years of experience. I am not against getting in an architect who is a designer also (stated by nycpartime)as plan B.