becoming an agent like "Selling New York"

You might want to take a look at The Real Deal's 2010 Data Book to get a sense of how the numbers work. Number of brokers and salespeople, listing totals, etc. 25,000 people chasing not that many listings.

It's a business with low barriers to entry, but huge obstacles to making a living.

Friends hardly ever really lay out the figures for you, so do some more digging.

Anna, you might find this interesting:

http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/25081-whats-a-typical-brokers-salary

On your friend, I think higher-end properties only come in at 4-5%. Also, that leaves 1-1.25%. I also imagine that at least half of that goes to the boss.

Err, strike the first "Also"....

Keep your 300K job.

The obvious advice is to read Freakonomics before deciding to take this step.

This offends me. You think because your "friend" makes it look so easy, that you can just jump right in and start making money.

Wow. Quite an ego on you. . .

You know, U2 just sings a few songs, I'm pretty sure I can jump in there and start making million-selling albums too.

Anna dont do it. 70 hours a week but a guaranteed paycheck is much better than trying to get a deal with a million possible things that can go wrong. The seller backs out, the buyer walks away, etc. Also you mentioned your frined joined a team, this team probably gave her the lead so 50% goes to the house, probably another 50% going to the team leader for passing on the lead to her. Then the money and time spent trying to close. It seems 300K for 70 hours a week is fine considering what things can go wrong being a broker....

In order to answer Anna's question properly, I think we are missing a key piece of information from her. On a scale of 1 to 10, we need to know hot she is. I am quite serious.

Anna, I too think you've probably got a good thing going with your current job. If your friend is selling $20M a year per your numbers as part of a group, she probably pulls in around $100K. I'd estimate that 2500 or so brokers in Manhattan have this level of average income or higher, out of 25,000. Granted, many if those 25,000 aren't "serious", but realize that the average income at the big shops is $60K or so, probably making the median $40K. At $300K, I'd guess that only 250-500 make that sort of average.

Let me put it another way. The very top of the field in Manhattan (and nationwide) averages "only" $5M a year. The top 2% in profession average "only" $300K. In your industry, what does the top person make? What about the top 2%? What percentile would you put yourself at? Maybe you have something that would put you ahead of the average broker, but is it enough to put you in the top 2%? Remember, this is a profession where things that got you to where you are today matter much less.

You think busy brokers don't work 70 hours a week? *snort*

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

One more thing: I'd also bet that many of the top people are putting in 70-hour weeks. The top person, for example, is a proud workaholic.

...."In order to answer Anna's question properly, I think we are missing a key piece of information from her. On a scale of 1 to 10, we need to know hot she is"

.....and how vacuous - wait, she already answered that question.

you call shilling on streeteasy work??

Also, if you don't want to work 70 hours a week (and that's a perfectly reasonable goal--I don't want to work 70 hours a week most of the time), maybe consider looking at jobs that pay less as opposed to trying to earn the same amount of money with less work. I suspect a lot of people would be happier with a better work/life balance, even if that cut into standard of living in other ways.

I LOVE the show 24, and Jack Bauer makes it look SO EASY to fight terrorists. Do you know ho much he makes per episode? Should I join CTU?

"You think busy brokers don't work 70 hours a week? *snort*"

Does that count the silly 1-hour "open houses" on Sundays?

*snort*

Anna - what's your current job?

All I can add to this discussion is that I'm really, really glad I kept my day job.

this post cannot be real...
if it is it's very depressing that someone so foolish makes 300k

I agree, bubbles. I wonder what the OP does, where you can make 300K having no analytical or critical skills.
"I saw a reality show on TV, and it looks easy, what's the catch?"

Yeah the OP didnt make sense, simply because of the 2 brokerages for the show, one is mostly uptown with the few female brokers getting most of the action are "in the family" and the other downtown broker is mostly gay men.

if they made $20K in 2009, they were jumping for joy ;)

NWT - thanks, I will check out the 2010 Data Book. Yes, I know there are a lot brokers/agents out there but I also know that only a small percentage are serious about the profession and work full time.

inonada - thanks for all your comments. Isn't it true that after an agent has generated
a certain amount of sales$$$, his or her % share will go up? I was told it can be as high 80-90% for some of the top producers and their firms keep 20%. Do you know how much in gross sales one has to generate before he or she becomes SVP at some of the top firms?

Sunday - you hit it on the nail. On a scale of 1 to 10, my friend is a solid 9 in my opinion, and all my guy friends feel the same too. Plus she has the most pleasant personality, there is not one person I know who doesn't like her. (Yes, I am a bit jealous to say the least.) I think this certainly
helped her land a job with a team that specializes in $4M and up properties.

bubbles+maly - If you live in Manhattan, $300K a year is probably middle class at best. After taxes and everything, I take home less than HALF. Health insurance for myself and my daughter, life and disability insurance, and mortgage eat up half of what I bring home every month. Basically I need to come up with at least $6000 a month even if I don't eat, and no, I am not living in a fancy apartment in Manhattan, just a junior 1 coop.

truthskr10 + ab_11218 - go to some of the top firms' websites and check out some of the agent profiles, all their sold listings are there, you can easily calculate how much they bring in every year, the #s don't lie unless there are more to the numbers than what is shown in their profiles.

Anyway, thanks everyone for the replies especially those who take me seriously!.

I think the key is to get in with a team that specializes in high end properties in Manhattan, if there is a choice between selling $4M + properties and those that are under $1M, why would anyone want to spend time dealing with the less expensive listings?

No idea, Anna. I just do this (SE) for fun. But, this might give a sense:

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/upfront-costs-rise-for-agents-2

"$150,000 gross yields a 55 percent split; $225,000, 60 percent; $300,000, 65 percent; and $500,000, 70 percent"

I would guess those numbers are incremental: 50% for the first $150K, 55% for the next $75K, 60% for the next $75K, ....

Maybe an actual broker can better answer the question...

"if there is a choice between selling $4M + properties and those that are under $1M, why would anyone want to spend time dealing with the less expensive listings?"

Based on Miller Samuel, the properties that average $4M represent the top 10% of the market, or about 1000 apts a year. These guys are probably at a 4% commission, co-broke down to 2%. Suppose your split 50/50 with your boss, who is feeding you all these listings due to the team brand. The first 4 sales gross $160K in commissions from you, half of which gets kicked up to the firm, so $80K for you. The next 4 grossing $160K leave you with $90K. The next 4, $110K.

So here you are, having sold 12 apt averaging $4M under the tutelage of a team, making $280K a year. Less than you currently make. Selling 1 apt a month. Accounting for 1% of the entire market. Working 40-hour weeks.

Do you watch Million Dollar Listing, BTW? Infinitely more entertaining, IMO. They picked up a new guy this season. The network being Bravo and the city being LA, this guy boasted that he did $38M in sales last year, which made put him I the top 3 brokers under 30 in LA or something. The scenario above that put you at $280K was $38M.

Take a look at this 2004 article about the top 10 NY brokers under 30 (which includes one of the Selling New York stars), and you'll see numbers in the $8-14M range:

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/top-agents-under-30

Err, "38M" => "48M".

Another interesting datapoint. Two very high-producing and respected teams in NYC are those of Deanna Kory and Ilan Bracha. In 2008, they did $114M and $100M split over a dozen or so people at each place:

http://online.wsj.com/ad/top100teamvolume.html
http://www.deannakory.com/agents.php
http://www.10069.com/the-team.php

That works out to around $2.5M in gross commissions per group, maybe $3M. Let's say $1M gets kicked up to the house for desks & marketing & whatnot. That leaves the group with $1.5-2M. Let's say the big dog takes half, so you're left with $750K and $1M over a dozen people. Works out to $60-80K a head.

Anna, can you humor us with your profession and approximate age? I'm going to go with lawyer, 38.

ionada - thx for those links. Im torn on how to make urbandigs.com more engaging with all the data we have. We already have tons of more charts coming out and phase 2 in development. But Im talking about Top 5s categories, Top Agents, Top Brokers...I wonder if I do that, will the industry go nuts on me? The hard part is done and the data is cleansed, now, how far do we take it!

There's only one way to find out ;).

What do you do for listings with many names? Split evenly? Do you get buy-side brokers too in your data?

"What do you do for listings with many names?"

Thats less of an issue in my systems. Data source is rolex, or RLS, as others know it. No open listings, and its only the lead agent that the listing is detailed under. If its co-exclusive, then it could be issue. But not many of those.

"Do you get buy-side brokers too in your data? "

No. There is nothing in the internal broker sharing system that requires a listing agent to enter the name of the cobroker when a listing sells or goes to contract

When does Nada sleep? When does Nada work?

Careful, Nada is one of the posters you aren't allowed to criticize.

I share some of the same daily routines as a few top brokers in Manhattan and lemme tell you, they work friggin' hard for that 1m annual paycheck. 70 hours/week? Try 80, 90, 100 and NO weekend family time at all. Not to mention taking calls from clients at random times during the day. I've also watched the ascent of a few brokers from newbies to top 5% at the big brokerages, and for the first couple of years, they were on the job 24/7 even if they got nothing for it (this is assuming they didn't come into the job with gold-plated Rolodexes and contacts). They had to be super high-energy, charming, looks totally help of course. And answering every call, taking down names, and I betcha they were doing rentals to keep the lights on.

Some, of course, swan into RE brokering, but they come with major, major connections.

"When does Nada sleep? When does Nada work?"

Good questions. I'll just say that my work hours are flexible, and that my sleep schedule is normalized by my wife who is at present not here.

Good luck to you, Anna, but do remember that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence & that sales are not for everyone. Sales professionals are born, not made; I truly believe that you've either got *it* or you don't. Also, I've read that Dolly Lenz almost never sees her kids - & they were still living at home. Do your homework & talk to lots of people but don't be blinded by the "easy" money & proceed with caution.

"Yes, I know there are a lot brokers/agents out there but I also know that only a small percentage are serious about the profession and work full time."

What makes you assume this?

Semi-rhetorical question: if Ilan Bracha makes so much money, why did he leave his firm?

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

Artistic differences?

As the clueless outsider, I'll gander some guesses. Maybe the split is better, maybe he gets some equity for helping establish the brand. A little browsing reveals some backing to those guesses:

http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/bracha-s-new-gig

"All Keller-Williams agents receive a 70 percent commission split, paying only 30 percent to the company, rather than the traditional 50-50 split, explained Bracha, who has admired Keller since reading "The Millionaire Real Estate Agent" years ago. Plus, the amount of commission each agent pays to the company per year under that split will be capped at $50,000, he said. After hitting that cap, 100 percent of commissions go directly to the agent."

"Another selling point of Keller Williams, he said, is that roughly half of the firm's profits are paid to agents who have recruited other agents to the company. Agents' shares of the profit are determined by the production of agents they've recruited. Once an agent has been with Keller for more than three years, he or she is vested and can leave the firm and still receive profit share."

inonada, do you know of any solo brokers? As in having no agency affiliation? I was unable to find any real information on this.

commoner - there are brokers who basically run their own firms - Beth Chase in the village is one example, and I believe there are several on the Upper West Side.

On the UWS:

Klara Madlin
Wohlfarth
Vandenberg
Argo (they are more of a vehicle for sponsor sales)
Orsid (see above)
CLB Realty (see above)
Rachel Realty

A few others - can't remember the names offhand, but I usually meet them when I go see sponsor sales
(more and more infrequent)

Rutenberg

ph1 - right.
nyc10023 - Orsid is a management company; the rest are agencies, not individuals. The difference between, say, Rachel Realty and,say, Corcoran is size. I was asking about individuals, not small(er) agencies.
ph1, I used to know a woman who was a free agent; she moved to CA because, she said, in CA they're mostly unaffiliated and have no overhead. Actually "Million Dollar Listing" confirmed that, no?

Doug Heddings, Noah Rosenblatt, Keith Burkhardt. I'm sure there are dozens other as ph41 describes.

inonada, I meant really a one-person operation. I know some in Europe but in NY it seems always a collective efforts of sorts. I might be wrong on that.

"Actually "Million Dollar Listing" confirmed that, no?"

Not really.

Chad => Hilton & Hyland (part of Christie's)
Old Josh => Keller Williams
Madison => Coldwell Banker
New Josh => Hilto & Hyland

inonada — thanks. Watched it briefly. That Madison guy is very charismatic. The rest of them are Cali freaks.

"inonada, I meant really a one-person operation. I know some in Europe but in NY it seems always a collective efforts of sorts. I might be wrong on that."

The people that break out seem to be very successful. You don't usually hear about some person with $2M in sales break out because they typically don't have a brand and are dependent on the mother ship's brand. So, you hear about these people with $50M in sales. If you're doing those kinds of numbers, it doesn't take long to figure out that paying an assistant $70K a year will allow you time to bring in $200K more in business.

That said, I thought Noah is a one-person shop.

Actually, Beth Chase, if I remember correctly, IS a one woman shop (with a secretary/assistant)unlike Burkhardt, Rosenblatt, et al. who have sales associates/brokers working for their eponymous firms.

inonada, I was typing my thanks simultaneously with you. Double thanks, then.

"inonada — thanks. Watched it briefly. That Madison guy is very charismatic. The rest of them are Cali freaks."

Yeah, that's what makes the show good: the fake-spun drama. That Madison character doesn't get involved: yet another example of a RE agent getting by on good looks. If he were just average-looking and behaved as sanely & dignified as he does, they'd give him the boot in a NY minute.

"If he were just average-looking and behaved as sanely & dignified as he does, they'd give him the boot in a NY minute."
And if the one with the wig or whatever it is on his head were in NYC? I just can't find the equivalent for his looks.
Good looks are just as much of a blessing, although much much more temporary, as any other talent. Nothing wrong with being good looking as long as it's not vulgar. "He's just using his brain" is not derogatory, why should "using his looks" be. He didn't steal those looks.

Because brains have something to do with the job the person is in theory being paid for, looks don't.

You missed my joke, commoner: that he has no talent in the "act like a big baby" department and thus has to get by on looks. Tsk tsk.

SWE: looks have a lot to do with the job of being on TV. Who the hell wants to watch ugly people? Just like people with brains have to work hard to cultivate and improve their brain, so do good-looking people.

inonada, I got it. Somehow didn't deliver that I got it.
SWE, smart people do take care of their bodies, too, no? At least some of them. The smartest ones.

Taking care of your body and looking good are two different things. Exercising and keeping your weight down is one thing, getting a six-pack is another. Ditto for shaving, plucking eyebrows, doing your hair, making up your face, and wearing heels.

and you didn't even mention botox. not to name names. but. who has a brow that is preternaturally smooth?

Maybe this "guy": http://streeteasy.com/nyc/talk/discussion/24949

It seems modern to pretend that brokers work off a laptop in a Starbucks, but the reality is that there's a reasonable amount of overhead involved in running an office.

As a result, most LREBS (licensed real estate brokers, the shorthand for one-person shops) can only make money working a very tight geographic area or clientele, so you won't have heard of them unless you're in that clientele or looking in that area.

Beth Chase, for example, is moving into Tribeca, but for years she worked only East Ninth and East Tenth Streets.

Carol E. Levy on CPW, I think is a little better known than most.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

"SWE: looks have a lot to do with the job of being on TV. Who the hell wants to watch ugly people? Just like people with brains have to work hard to cultivate and improve their brain, so do good-looking people"

If the job is playing a realtor on TV, sure.
If the job is being a realtor, no.

Orsid manages, like BHS & Elliman, but also has agents who sell (notably 322 CPW & 140 RSD & a couple of others). www.orsidr.com

If you're looking for true single-person shops, I don't know of any off the top of my head, except for Noah.
Does Keith count? He is not a single-person shop. Doug Heddings is under Rutenberg umbrella.

Eponymous firms on UWS would be Klara Madlin, Margaret Bassett, Marilyn Korn, Donna Olshan, F. Wohlfarth. I don't know if Peggy Conway is still active.

Ali, yes, forgot about Carol E. Levy. She owns in the Beresford, and does a lot of deals in 23W73. Is she really a one-woman shop with assistants?

I forgot Phyliss Koch.

Is Alice F. Mason a one-woman shop?

Alice Mason has 10 brokers.

What about Anne Weintraub? She specialized in 1 Fifth and a few other buildings nearby - also seems to be a one woman shop.

ph41, excellent call.

Kim and Janet Robliotti work the Gold Coast too, and seem to do it as a two-person shop.

Well, while I will not disclose exactly how much it is I make, I will tell you that becoming a Realtor has been by far the best professional decision I ever made. This business is NOT as glamorous as some paint it. A lot goes into selling real estate than just the sale. On any given day we are called to be acting therapists, decorators, financial advisers, psychiatrists, educators, promoters, marriage counselors, politicians, mediators, etc. We Realtors wear many hats, and get no glory for the bulk of our effort. But consider the alternatives and you can tell why I am so in love with this industry. Prior to my career as a full time New York based Realtor, I spent years in law enforcement, and even went into construction, all the while practicing real estate part time. Those were some of the toughest years of my life. I took a leap of faith. I stopped listening to the negative fools in my life and decided I would tackle this career full time. It is the best decision I ever made. Yes, it's been expensive at times. If I wasn't careful, this profession would have eaten me alive. But I persevered. I spent most of my money on me and my business. Most of my expenses have not gone into fake flash and glare. I don't wear $5,000 suits. I don't drive a fancy car. I don't wake up in a penthouse in Manhattan. I don't fly first class and my clients meet me for a drink or an afternoon lunch that is within my means. Don't get me wrong. I do splurge once in a while. But I am a simple dude for the most part. I spend most of my business spending money on me and my business. I have a coach. I meet with my mentor (my treat) for a cigar and a drink every Wednesday. I advertise. I go to paid seminars. I pay for training programs. I make sure my car is clean and presentable. I send letters to my current and past clients on high end paper. I paid for a revamped team logo that compliments my company's world recognized logo. I pay my taxes. I send out Holiday cards to all my past clients. I purchase books for my Kindle. I read a lot. I study a lot. I write a lot. I learn a lot. I work a lot. And when I get to play, I play hard. So yes, this is not as easy as the reality shows will have us believe. Still, it is much better than anything I've ever done and it affords me a very comfortable life in the greatest city in the world. I am in love with this industry because I truly feel like it is allowing me to help others fall in love with the city that I have always known as home. I am in love with this industry and cannot imagine leaving it behind any time soon. If you need further proof that this does work, consider that I am raising a family in what is definitely one of the most expensive cities in the world. I am the proud father of 7 and grandfather to 3 and I'm only 43 years YOUNG! I have $0 debt right now. I am comfortable, happy and this summer I took my family to Puerto Rico for 3 weeks, and then to Greece for 3 weeks. I then added a trip to Boston, Chicago and Atlantic City in between. Did I mention I am $0 in debt. Yes, this industry does work, if you are willing to put in the hours.

George L. Rosario, Realtor
Coldwell Banker Kueber

#glrosario #rosarioshalomayevgroup