I have recently sold my apartment and have told my co-broker (one of two brokers from the same firm that are handling my sale), that if I buy again I am not necessarily using a buyers broker. (They are from one of the biggest NY firms). Well today, he sent me an email knowing that I read Street Easy everyday and is aware of an apartment that I may want to see at an open house. He asked to register... [more]
I have recently sold my apartment and have told my co-broker (one of two brokers from the same firm that are handling my sale), that if I buy again I am not necessarily using a buyers broker. (They are from one of the biggest NY firms).
Well today, he sent me an email knowing that I read Street Easy everyday and is aware of an apartment that I may want to see at an open house. He asked to register me for the open house on Sunday to which I told him politely no, I may not be going, and if I go the great thing about an open house is I don't have to talk to, negotiate, or make decisions who is or is not representing me. Am I incorrect readers? I have been asked to do that once the 2nd viewing happens or the bidding begins, as I know the legal issues.
I have been told and been able to negotiate down on more than one occassion if I have seen a property and have not included a buyers broker in the deal.
This particular deal (even if I like it), is from the same firm from my brokers firm. Does that make any difference?
Won't I still benefit from the broker not having to share the full 6% commission and offer me a better rate and perhaps a very quick sale (I may be all cash), as a result of not sharing? Please remember I never told my selling broker that he would be part of the buying process, we covered this up front from the beginning.
I spoke with the broker selling this "open house" and when I mentioned to him the possibility of me going solo and not having a buyers brokers therefore maybe giving me a better price, he is the only broker that has said that that is "unethical" to do?? How is that unethical, he gets more commission , I pay the same rate, is that "unethical".
Please let me hear your comments and questions, not accusations, as I would like to hear from other readers on my points above.
Many thanks
P.S.- I haven't done anything yet, I haven't even seen the apartment in question.
[less]
Response by tina24hour
over 14 years ago
Posts: 720
Member since: Jun 2008
From your post, you appear to be answering your own question. Your current broker is disappointed, and the listing agent thinks what you are asking is unethical. Whether or not either has a legal leg to stand on (hint: they don't), you have succeeded in offending both the agent who successfully represented you in a sale, as well as the agent representing a property you may well want to buy.
This is not an accusation - I'm just interpreting what you wrote above.
What have we learned? The selling agent does not consider you a co-broker, and is under no obligation to split his commission to you. He represents the seller, and will be paid by the seller - not by you, your broker, or any other buyer. His financial dealings with the seller are not your business. You may make an offer in writing, and the listing agent will submit it to his seller. He may not sing your praises when he does so, but let's hope your money talks.
Tina Fallon
Realty Collective, LLC
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Response by tina24hour
over 14 years ago
Posts: 720
Member since: Jun 2008
As for the persistent buyer's broker: if you tell your agent unequivocally that you do not need his services and prefer to go it alone, I am certain he will respect your wishes. Don't just keep him hanging on with an "I am not necessarily using a buyers broker" - that's like breaking up with someone but saying you might still make a booty call.
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Response by damier212
over 14 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Aug 2009
Huntersburg- your comments are ignored and reported to Street Easy. I can't waste my vision to even read them.
Tina24hour- Let me clarify, my current broker has known in no uncertain terms that I am not using a buyers broker, I made it clear verbally and in writing. That is my choice and he is bringing up old business and trying to put a guilt trip on me. Meanwhile, I don't even have another property to buy and will probably rent, and that is my business. He did his job in selling my property and will get paid for doing that and did that well. It never meant he was going to be included in future deals, that I made perfectly clear. Every apartment I have found for a possible purchase I found on my own, and yet he still persists. If he is offended, he needs to get over it, he already knew for months I am possibly doing this on my own. For the sellers broker using the word "unethical", thats just absurd. Of course he wants me to buy without a broker, he will get double the commission, that's very obvious. Forget about the savings I may get, do you really think the buyers broker wants to encourage me bringing someone on to a deal. He would have to be rather uneducated.
I did tell my broker that if he found me something that I didn't find on my own, that's something we can talk about, but that has never happened. If you read STREET EASY every day, (the listings), it is nearly impossible not to know what is available in your desired location or price range. G-d Bless STREET EASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
>Huntersburg- your comments are ignored and reported to Street Easy. I can't waste my vision to even read them.
So you did not attempt to hide material information about your apartment buyer?
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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
A quick search for damier212 or damier reveals an individual who is prone to significant dishonesty in his dealings.
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Response by jim_hones10
over 14 years ago
Posts: 3413
Member since: Jan 2010
My suspicion is that he's really columbiacunty, just in another guise.
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Response by columbiacounty
over 14 years ago
Posts: 12708
Member since: Jan 2009
How do you spell hfscomm1?
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Response by urbandigs
over 14 years ago
Posts: 3629
Member since: Jan 2006
Damier - few things.
1. You have every right to want to work on your own. There are no rules that say you must use a traditional buyer broker. With that said, I would say the majority of deals are co-brokered with representation on both sides
2. If it were me, I would tell the buyer broker politely make it very clear, "thank you but we do not intend to have buy side representation. If anything changes, I will certainly be in touch. If you send listings my way, there is a very good chance I already saw the listing online" - us brokers are aware of the industry with which we work, and sometimes a buyer wants to work on their own. And that is fine. We should get the message clear and move on.
3. Just because your not represented, does not necessarily mean the selling broker earns a full 6% on the deal. These days, many listing agreements are tiered so that direct deals pay out slightly less than a co-brokered deal. To the seller, the net may be higher with a direct deal. This is where your perceived 'deal' or 'better rate' is coming from. My response to this is 'its up to the seller' where the bottom line is! You may not be able to quantify the savings unless a unique situation exists where two identical buyers, same in every way (strength, bid, closing terms, etc) bid at the same time but one has a broker and one doesn't and the seller sees clearly the difference in net with working with one over the other. Outside of that, the seller will still try to get the highest price possible off you.
4. Lots of buyers utilize SE to see whats on the market, listing histories, and past comps. But there are other aspects of the buying process that a broker may be able to help you on. Just saying, that it goes beyond the search & procurement part of the process. I find most clients care most about the part of the process AFTER they identify a property they want to bid on: what is it worth, comps analysis, bidding strategy, negotiating strategy, handling hiccups as they come up during negotiating and atty diligence, how to react, etc..To me, this by far is the most important part of a buyer brokers job - anyone can customize a search and send over listings.
Conclusion - you can do what you want! nobody can tell you that you must use a buyer broker, period. This is a free market and I think the seller broker was mis-interpreting you and thinking that you get paid some of the buyer agent fee. Tina is right, selling broker was hired by the seller and is paid by the seller X if its a co-broke deal and Y if its a direct. X and Y may be the same, but these days that is rare unless its 500K or under. Maybe 1M or under. The terms between seller and exclusive agent/firm are not your business. Things may get negotiated to bridge a gap, I do it all the time to get a deal to go down, but that is different. I think you just need to be very clear with your buyer broker, as its not fair to have them think they can win you back and now they are trying to.
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Response by romary
over 14 years ago
Posts: 443
Member since: Aug 2008
2q11 the pboa continues
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Response by SellingNY
over 14 years ago
Posts: 1
Member since: Feb 2010
According to the REBNY (real estate board of New York) you can choose any broker to represent you at anytime during the transaction. In other words if you go to an open house without a broker, you can always add them after, prior to any negotiation. However this rule does not apply to new developments when there is an onsite sales office. Once you register at the new development no one can represent you after that other then the buildings sales office. All this also depends if the brokers are members of REBNEY. They have specific guidelines that any member must adhere to. If the broker isn't a member of REBNEY then usually they beat to their own drum. It can get a little wild if you try to introduce someone after the fact.
Your selling broker is a great advocate for you. He has your interest at heart from a couple of places. He or She know that they are responsible for two transactions and accordingly will work harder to make sure there aren't an hidden issues that you should know about. You may also have some leverage on the sale commission of your own property if they are making a commission on a purchase.
Either way you should make up your mind about who is going to represent you and not allow any professional agent to linger. Brokers work extremely hard and most deals don't end up coming together. Therefore they are usually working for nothing.
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Response by shekfu
over 14 years ago
Posts: 10
Member since: Feb 2008
Check this out, Let's say the deal is $1,000,000
if the seller has to pay 6% (buyer & seller broker) then he nets $940K
if the seller has to pay 3% (only seller broker) then he net $970K
if the seller has to pay 4% (only seller broker) then he net $960K
It really depends on the agreement between the seller and their broker. Sometime there is agreement where if there is no buyer's broker the seller could get a discount rate like 3%-4% commission. As you can see, your offer of $1M is really $940K, $970K or $960K to the seller. However, It is impossible for you to know their agreement, but if a broker help you, they deserved to get pay. If not, then I wouldn't. Now you can see why people get upset when there is a buyer's broker comes late in the picture. Just remember seller pays all commissions with YOUR money!
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Response by jim_hones10
over 14 years ago
Posts: 3413
Member since: Jan 2010
Columbiacounty I think you spell it: p a r a n o i d d e l u s i o n
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Response by huntersburg
over 14 years ago
Posts: 11329
Member since: Nov 2010
>Sometime there is agreement where if there is no buyer's broker the seller could get a discount rate like 3%-4% commission. As you can see, your offer of $1M is really $940K, $970K or $960K to the seller.
Or, the seller thinks, hey, great the buyer doesn't have a broker, but maybe the seller thinks he out to benefit a little out of it, not the full 3%, but get 1% back. And the selling broker thinks, well great that the buyer doesn't have a broker, but now I have some extra work to do, and why shouldn't I benefit a little. So the 3% theoretical benefit to the buyer is cut by 1% to the seller and 1% to the seller's broker. Buyer saves 1% and maybe wonders, well, if it's only 1%, why don't I just have a broker represent me and advocate on my behalf and save me some money, maybe I'm paying too much by not having a broker argue hard for me. ... there's no free lunch.
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Response by inonada
over 14 years ago
Posts: 7952
Member since: Oct 2008
Why don't you save yourself a lot of hassle and just use Keith Burkhardt as your buyer's broker, do most of the work yourself, and take back 2% of the 3% buy-side fee? No annoying crap to deal with, and in the end you'll pay the same to brokers as compared to going without a buyer's broker. Plus, you get Keith on your side. Seems like a no-brainer.
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Response by damier212
over 14 years ago
Posts: 124
Member since: Aug 2009
Hi inonada,
I was going to call Keith, we have spoken before.....I am 50/50 on a purchase vs a rental due to a possible job change which is making this exercise even more challenging at the moment.
I appreciate your commments.
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Response by front_porch
over 14 years ago
Posts: 5316
Member since: Mar 2008
A second vote for you to call Keith -- it seems like you two would be a good fit.
ali r.
DG Neary Realty
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Response by Bouklis_Group
over 14 years ago
Posts: 7
Member since: Jan 2010
Your choice to do what you like. However you do understand your seling broker will not feel comftorable sending you exact listing info including address and apartment number if he doesnt trust you. ( in reference to listings you are not aware of)
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Response by Wbottom
over 14 years ago
Posts: 2142
Member since: May 2010
use no broker--they add nothing usually, and often add dumb greed to the equation--when negotiating, indicate to the seller that, give you are not using a broker their broker will be collecting an atypical 6%, wher they would normally only collect 3%--use that fact to chip away at their resolve not to come to your desired price
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Response by KeithB
over 14 years ago
Posts: 976
Member since: Aug 2009
FYI: I told him to rent, makes no sense for a purchase due to his situation. Nice guy, used to work with my ex-wife, what a small world.
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From your post, you appear to be answering your own question. Your current broker is disappointed, and the listing agent thinks what you are asking is unethical. Whether or not either has a legal leg to stand on (hint: they don't), you have succeeded in offending both the agent who successfully represented you in a sale, as well as the agent representing a property you may well want to buy.
This is not an accusation - I'm just interpreting what you wrote above.
What have we learned? The selling agent does not consider you a co-broker, and is under no obligation to split his commission to you. He represents the seller, and will be paid by the seller - not by you, your broker, or any other buyer. His financial dealings with the seller are not your business. You may make an offer in writing, and the listing agent will submit it to his seller. He may not sing your praises when he does so, but let's hope your money talks.
Tina Fallon
Realty Collective, LLC
As for the persistent buyer's broker: if you tell your agent unequivocally that you do not need his services and prefer to go it alone, I am certain he will respect your wishes. Don't just keep him hanging on with an "I am not necessarily using a buyers broker" - that's like breaking up with someone but saying you might still make a booty call.
Huntersburg- your comments are ignored and reported to Street Easy. I can't waste my vision to even read them.
Tina24hour- Let me clarify, my current broker has known in no uncertain terms that I am not using a buyers broker, I made it clear verbally and in writing. That is my choice and he is bringing up old business and trying to put a guilt trip on me. Meanwhile, I don't even have another property to buy and will probably rent, and that is my business. He did his job in selling my property and will get paid for doing that and did that well. It never meant he was going to be included in future deals, that I made perfectly clear. Every apartment I have found for a possible purchase I found on my own, and yet he still persists. If he is offended, he needs to get over it, he already knew for months I am possibly doing this on my own. For the sellers broker using the word "unethical", thats just absurd. Of course he wants me to buy without a broker, he will get double the commission, that's very obvious. Forget about the savings I may get, do you really think the buyers broker wants to encourage me bringing someone on to a deal. He would have to be rather uneducated.
I did tell my broker that if he found me something that I didn't find on my own, that's something we can talk about, but that has never happened. If you read STREET EASY every day, (the listings), it is nearly impossible not to know what is available in your desired location or price range. G-d Bless STREET EASY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>Huntersburg- your comments are ignored and reported to Street Easy. I can't waste my vision to even read them.
So you did not attempt to hide material information about your apartment buyer?
A quick search for damier212 or damier reveals an individual who is prone to significant dishonesty in his dealings.
My suspicion is that he's really columbiacunty, just in another guise.
How do you spell hfscomm1?
Damier - few things.
1. You have every right to want to work on your own. There are no rules that say you must use a traditional buyer broker. With that said, I would say the majority of deals are co-brokered with representation on both sides
2. If it were me, I would tell the buyer broker politely make it very clear, "thank you but we do not intend to have buy side representation. If anything changes, I will certainly be in touch. If you send listings my way, there is a very good chance I already saw the listing online" - us brokers are aware of the industry with which we work, and sometimes a buyer wants to work on their own. And that is fine. We should get the message clear and move on.
3. Just because your not represented, does not necessarily mean the selling broker earns a full 6% on the deal. These days, many listing agreements are tiered so that direct deals pay out slightly less than a co-brokered deal. To the seller, the net may be higher with a direct deal. This is where your perceived 'deal' or 'better rate' is coming from. My response to this is 'its up to the seller' where the bottom line is! You may not be able to quantify the savings unless a unique situation exists where two identical buyers, same in every way (strength, bid, closing terms, etc) bid at the same time but one has a broker and one doesn't and the seller sees clearly the difference in net with working with one over the other. Outside of that, the seller will still try to get the highest price possible off you.
4. Lots of buyers utilize SE to see whats on the market, listing histories, and past comps. But there are other aspects of the buying process that a broker may be able to help you on. Just saying, that it goes beyond the search & procurement part of the process. I find most clients care most about the part of the process AFTER they identify a property they want to bid on: what is it worth, comps analysis, bidding strategy, negotiating strategy, handling hiccups as they come up during negotiating and atty diligence, how to react, etc..To me, this by far is the most important part of a buyer brokers job - anyone can customize a search and send over listings.
Conclusion - you can do what you want! nobody can tell you that you must use a buyer broker, period. This is a free market and I think the seller broker was mis-interpreting you and thinking that you get paid some of the buyer agent fee. Tina is right, selling broker was hired by the seller and is paid by the seller X if its a co-broke deal and Y if its a direct. X and Y may be the same, but these days that is rare unless its 500K or under. Maybe 1M or under. The terms between seller and exclusive agent/firm are not your business. Things may get negotiated to bridge a gap, I do it all the time to get a deal to go down, but that is different. I think you just need to be very clear with your buyer broker, as its not fair to have them think they can win you back and now they are trying to.
2q11 the pboa continues
According to the REBNY (real estate board of New York) you can choose any broker to represent you at anytime during the transaction. In other words if you go to an open house without a broker, you can always add them after, prior to any negotiation. However this rule does not apply to new developments when there is an onsite sales office. Once you register at the new development no one can represent you after that other then the buildings sales office. All this also depends if the brokers are members of REBNEY. They have specific guidelines that any member must adhere to. If the broker isn't a member of REBNEY then usually they beat to their own drum. It can get a little wild if you try to introduce someone after the fact.
Your selling broker is a great advocate for you. He has your interest at heart from a couple of places. He or She know that they are responsible for two transactions and accordingly will work harder to make sure there aren't an hidden issues that you should know about. You may also have some leverage on the sale commission of your own property if they are making a commission on a purchase.
Either way you should make up your mind about who is going to represent you and not allow any professional agent to linger. Brokers work extremely hard and most deals don't end up coming together. Therefore they are usually working for nothing.
Check this out, Let's say the deal is $1,000,000
if the seller has to pay 6% (buyer & seller broker) then he nets $940K
if the seller has to pay 3% (only seller broker) then he net $970K
if the seller has to pay 4% (only seller broker) then he net $960K
It really depends on the agreement between the seller and their broker. Sometime there is agreement where if there is no buyer's broker the seller could get a discount rate like 3%-4% commission. As you can see, your offer of $1M is really $940K, $970K or $960K to the seller. However, It is impossible for you to know their agreement, but if a broker help you, they deserved to get pay. If not, then I wouldn't. Now you can see why people get upset when there is a buyer's broker comes late in the picture. Just remember seller pays all commissions with YOUR money!
Columbiacounty I think you spell it: p a r a n o i d d e l u s i o n
>Sometime there is agreement where if there is no buyer's broker the seller could get a discount rate like 3%-4% commission. As you can see, your offer of $1M is really $940K, $970K or $960K to the seller.
Or, the seller thinks, hey, great the buyer doesn't have a broker, but maybe the seller thinks he out to benefit a little out of it, not the full 3%, but get 1% back. And the selling broker thinks, well great that the buyer doesn't have a broker, but now I have some extra work to do, and why shouldn't I benefit a little. So the 3% theoretical benefit to the buyer is cut by 1% to the seller and 1% to the seller's broker. Buyer saves 1% and maybe wonders, well, if it's only 1%, why don't I just have a broker represent me and advocate on my behalf and save me some money, maybe I'm paying too much by not having a broker argue hard for me. ... there's no free lunch.
Why don't you save yourself a lot of hassle and just use Keith Burkhardt as your buyer's broker, do most of the work yourself, and take back 2% of the 3% buy-side fee? No annoying crap to deal with, and in the end you'll pay the same to brokers as compared to going without a buyer's broker. Plus, you get Keith on your side. Seems like a no-brainer.
Hi inonada,
I was going to call Keith, we have spoken before.....I am 50/50 on a purchase vs a rental due to a possible job change which is making this exercise even more challenging at the moment.
I appreciate your commments.
A second vote for you to call Keith -- it seems like you two would be a good fit.
ali r.
DG Neary Realty
Your choice to do what you like. However you do understand your seling broker will not feel comftorable sending you exact listing info including address and apartment number if he doesnt trust you. ( in reference to listings you are not aware of)
use no broker--they add nothing usually, and often add dumb greed to the equation--when negotiating, indicate to the seller that, give you are not using a broker their broker will be collecting an atypical 6%, wher they would normally only collect 3%--use that fact to chip away at their resolve not to come to your desired price
FYI: I told him to rent, makes no sense for a purchase due to his situation. Nice guy, used to work with my ex-wife, what a small world.
Thanks for the props though!
Keith Burkhardt (broker)
http://theburkhardtgroup.com/agents_details.php?agent_ID=7619