One Brooklyn Bridge Park

For what it's worth, my understanding is that the current deal is 6 months of no common charges guaranteed, though that may increase depending on the % of units sold at the end of the six months. Apparently, it's still worth it for the developer to assume the common charges. (Not sure why, or at what point this changes.)

I was told the transfer tax pick-up depended on the line, and the % sold within the line. In our case, the developer was likely to pay the transfer tax for one unit we were interested in, but not another.

It is my understanding from the original offering plan that the sponsor has to pay common charges until the building is 35% occupied. I continue to be interested in the building but do not trust the developer or the ethics of the sales team. I have been told too many conflicting things... Yesterday I was told by the sales team that the developer decided that the recent price reductions were too much and he is now increasing the sales prices on most units. They claim that the fact that 12 units were sold in 6 weeks indicates that the discounts were too steep. Obviously, the sponsor continues to be in denial. He obviously is not a guru in real estate pricing or he wouldn't be sitting on over 300 units. I doubt his current sales momentum will continue as the holiday season approaches. Has anyone else experienced conflicting stories?

We had exactly the same experience -- price cuts too steep, so prices would likely increase. We also continue to be interested in the building, but are taking a wait-and-see approach.

Does this at all compete with being in Dumbo or better of Williamsburg?

anyone know how much a 1br w/ city views is going for?

went and saw the 1br and studio / office places...big..very nice. I like the neighborhood too. still to expensive though.

"Does this at all compete with being in Dumbo or better of Williamsburg?"

Hardly.

DUMBO is rather inconveniently located, off by itself, and at least a 20 minute walk to the main drag in Brooklyn Heights (Montague Street).

Williamsburg is probably the most inconveniently located neighborhoods in the entire city (save maybe for Roosevelt Island and all of Staten Island), since it's not within walking distance of anywhere anyone would like to go, and is accessible via only ONE train -- the L.

Brooklyn Heights, however, has SEVEN subway lines from which to choose, and is within easy walking distance to neighboring hoods like Cobble Hill.

Pinkpanther, there is something really funny about a developer who believes his product is priced too low if he's selling. He sounds like Groucho Marx, wouldn't dream to belong to a club that would accept the likes of him. It's so absurd, it makes me smile.

"Williamsburg is probably the most inconveniently located neighborhoods in the entire city (save maybe for Roosevelt Island and all of Staten Island), since it's not within walking distance of anywhere anyone would like to go, and is accessible via only ONE train -- the L."

You keep saying this, but it's just wrong. Unless you spend a lot of time north of 59th St, it's a very conveniently located neighborhood. I live in Williamsburg and my commute to the Financial District is now shorter than what it was on the UWS. You also forgot about the G and J/M/Z, but hey, who's counting?

The G takes forever and doesn't even go into Manhattan. so it's ridiculous to even discuss.

And the J/M/Z is fine if you're going into the financial district.

As I said before, unless your destination is the 14th Street corridor, leaving Williamsburg is a minimum two-train transfer, which is a pain in the ass when you have to do it ALL THE TIME.

this building is way far from those trains though. it's not like they are a close amenity

I lived across the street from the building for 10 years. FOUR blocks to Borough Hall trains 4/5/2/3/M/N/R/W, and six blocks from Jay Street A/C/F.

That's hardly "way far". "Way far" would be Stuy Town or PCV from just about ANY train.

G is far from ideal, but don't pretend it doesn't exist. It's pretty convenient to get to downtown Brooklyn, Cobble Hill, etc. And J/M/Z is great for getting to the LES, Soho, and Financial District. For many people in Williamsburg, the "14th St corridor" is crucial. I do love the UWS, Harlem, and other spots, but most of what I need in Manhattan is below 23rd, so the L is great. Point is, it's not for everyone, but your classification is a load of hooey.

there is no across the street from that building. you lived on the other side of the bqe i assume?

it's all a matter of personal opinion but i have walked to and from the train to that building more than once and to me it's far from the train. it's all uphill. and in the winter it's gonna "way" suck

"there is no across the street from that building. you lived on the other side of the bqe i assume?"

Yes.

"i have walked to and from the train to that building more than once and to me it's far from the train.

I guess four blocks is too far for you.

Good luck finding an apartment that's within THREE blocks or less of the subway.

i live in between the A on 8th and the 1 on 7th right now. it's not that hard to find. you are not the only person familiar with this area. it's not 4 blocks. if we are going to be sticklers from court it's clinton, sidney place, henry, garden place, hicks, willow, columbia place then crossing under the bqe to furman which is a pain. then you have to walk what feels like a block to the lobby door since it's not on the corner which was a bad move. then once your in the building you have to walk a mile down those crazy hallways to get to any of the good water facing apartments. even if you want to call it 4 blocks and skip all the smaller side streets you gotta count that bqe cross and the walk down furman. we aren't talking about the walk to your old apartment. anyway. i wanted to like this development and that walk killed it for me.

Well, if you're going to count HALF blocks, Jasonkyle, then ANY walk would be "too far".

Might I suggest getting into shape?

you're still kind of skipping the whole trudge under the bqe and the walk after that. let's not start with the personal insults. too many conversations on here become pure garbage due to that. i have nothing against you personally i just disagree with your measurement of distance.

i used to live between hicks and henry in Carroll Gardens and the walk was not bad. but you have to add another 10 minutes for the hicks down to the entrance. you're dealing with an entrance to the bqe and the traffic going under the bqe. crossing those streets is not only dangerous, but is time consuming.

Matt, why don't you tell us about your 10 min commute downtown from Inwood again. Will be a good laugh again.

jason, you lost me on "the whole trudge under the bqe and the walk after that." The underpass of the BQE is less than 50 feet (if that, it is only a three lane road). The walk after that is barely worth talking about particularly since there is a entrance/exit to the building for residents on the corner of Furman and Joralemon. I've been to the building several times in the past two weeks and I've seen many residents use it.

Similarly, ab_11218, 10 minutes from hicks to the entrance? The entire walk from 1BB to the subway entrance at Court and Joralemon took my wife about 7 minutes and she's 5'2" (so not a long stride, but she does tend to walk quickly).

I just think the distance from the subway to 1BB is so overdone. Is it as close as other locations in Brooklyn Heights? No, but it is closer to the subway than many other places in Brooklyn or Manhattan (I used to walk from 81st Street and East End Ave to the 86th Street and Lex station) and you're closer to a transportation hub (2, 3, 4, 5, N, R) than anyplace on the UWS or UES.

"DUMBO is rather inconveniently located,"
Matt, you claimed this already, and it was already proven nonsense. Its orders of magnitude more convenient than 1 BBP. Besides being able to walk to Manhattan in a little more time than you can walk to the subway... going by stophop walking, in less time from 1 BBP to court and joralemon.... you can get from 70 washington to the F, the AC, or even the 2/3. Hell, you can get to court and joralemon only two minutes slower than 1bbp.

"at least a 20 minute walk to the main drag in Brooklyn Heights (Montague Street). "

And Broadway is a 5 hour flight from the sunset strip. Thats a stupid comparison, DUMBO has its own main strip. Its filled with morons and tourists, but who the hell wants to go to Montague Street? Thats one of the crappiest main drags in existence. All the crud, with none of the good stuff.

And DUMBO is certainly orders of magnitude better for stuff and life than the wrong side of the bqe....

"even if you want to call it 4 blocks and skip all the smaller side streets you gotta count that bqe cross and the walk down furman"

and if you fly...

hopstop calls it .6 mile. its 4 blocks only if you go by imaginary brooklyn blocks. In real blocks, thats 12 blocks.

"hopstop calls it .6 mile. "

Google maps says it's .26 miles from the building to the Court Street subways (2/3/4/5/N/R). That falls in line perfectly with gator's assertion that his wife walked that distance in 7 minutes. The average person walks 4 miles per hour. At that rate, you're going about a quarter of a mile in seven minutes (.26 mile).

*****
"4 blocks only if you go by imaginary brooklyn blocks. In real blocks, thats 12 blocks."

Wrong again. Look at the map. Willow, Sydney, Columbia, Garden are all SUB-blocks. It's 12 blocks if you count THESE "imaginary" blocks. In REAL blocks, again, it's only FOUR blocks.

somewhereelse, this is getting sort of silly. First, hopstop calls it .49 mile (not .6) from 1BB to the intersection of Joralemon and Court which is where the subway entrance is located.

Second, you are comparing how conveniently located a neighborhood is to how conveniently located a specific building is. Parts of DUMBO are more conveniently located than others. In any event, DUMBO is not "orders of magnitude more convenient than 1BBP." The F is not the best train for many people and the A/C is almost an identical walk (per hopstop) as the walk from 1BB to the 4, 5, 2, 3. And I noticed that you used 70 Washington as representative of all of DUMBO, which is of course the westernmost building in DUMBO. What about 1 Main Street or 206 Front Street or many of the other buildings in DUMBO which are several to many more blocks away from the A/C?

And while Montague Street is not the best main drag it does have several desirable shops, restaurants etc. And you are forgeting about 1BB's proximity to Atlantic Avenue with all of its "good stuff."

Lastly, would it make any difference if 1BB was located on the east side of the BQE than the "wrong side" of it? Not in my view.

"Lastly, would it make any difference if 1BB was located on the east side of the BQE than the "wrong side" of it? Not in my view."

This makes me wonder how many people have actually visited the building. You're not actually crossing the BQE from Joralemon Street, you're crossing Furman Street UNDER the BQE -- one of the sleepiest streets I've ever seen in Brooklyn. I don't know why they even bothered putting a traffic light at that intersection, there's so little traffic.

NYC Matt, thanks for starting to get us all back on topic. Back to the building....?

Exactly Matt. Classic brownstone Brooklyn is an underpass away from 1BB. And Furman Street is months away from essentially being incorporated into Brooklyn Bridge Park.

P.S. Jocoru, hope to be joining you in the building soon.

So we have a 440 unit building that's less than 20% sold with a grand total of 3 recorded closings on post-bubble contracts, and the developer is worried about demand outstripping supply at the reduced prices so has started raising them again?! Like someone else said we're happy to sit on the sidelines until he moves beyond denial or the bank takes control...

More and more would-be buyers are taking a wait and see approach on this building. The new management seems schitzophrenic, just as the old management was shady and untrustworthy. Raising the prices again... obviously this real estate team recently switched careers from something in the arts. They sold a few units so they're actually panicking that the prices are too low? sheesh. they should raise them sky to make sure nothing ever gets sold again. idiots.

let them raise..lol. 2 months from now and bonuss season has passed and theyre still sitting on an empty building theyll be back to square one scratching thier heads

They should look at the play book of auto dealers and do the "used trade in". Trade in your old home for the purchase of a new home! I think it's genius. Who's the first developer to do this? A lot of free press would ensue. Though, now they'll have to sell the traded in home - a much harder prospect since the original owners couldn't/wouldn't do it.

All I can say is that I have been dealing with the sales team for a few weeks now and they have been very consistent. I have been looking at a few differenct apartments based on floorplan and view and the prices on all of them have been consistent. I was told that on one unit, which was the last unit available in the line, that they wouldn't negotiate the price but the price remained at what I was quoted.

The only thing that the staff said about raising prices was that they hoped to be able to do so in the spring when the park was complete, which makes sense to me. I do think that the 2 year extension they worked out with the lender has given the sponsor some confidence such that they do not feel like they need to firesale the building now especially since the building should have a much different feel when the park is finished (by May 2010 for Pier 6 and the other areas surrounding the building).

"The only thing that the staff said about raising prices was that they hoped to be able to do so in the spring when the park was complete, which makes sense to me. "

That makes NO sense at all.

80% of the units remain unsold not because there's no park, but because they're OVERPRICED.

finally something the Matt and I agree with.

they need to take the 2020 prices down and put up the 2010 prices. the people who were buying these units in 2007/8, were expecting prices to keep going up at least 10% per year for 5 years and paid as such.

I went and visited this place again today...these people are crazy..a studio with a view of a highway off-ramp for 500+K...yeah right. place sucks.

marco, so the entire building sucks because one studio is priced higher than you think it should be? Did you make an offer? I'll agree that the view of a 4th or 5th floor studio on the BQE side isn't great but there are alot of people that would trade a view for more space and it is a very big studio (850+ sq ft). $500k is a bit high but not ridiculous for new construction, a lot of space, great amenities etc. Not trying to shill for the building, but your comment that a place sucks because you thought one studio was overpriced struck a chord.

Matt, I disagree somewhat. There is no doubt that 1BB was overpriced before the recent price cut, but I think many units are now quite competitively priced. That being said I think the park not being complete has been a definite impediment to sales. Right now with the area looking far more like a construction site than park, a potential buyer needs some vision. And the one thing I have learned over the years is that few buyers have vision. When the park is finished the building will feel much different and no vision will be needed.

The opening of pier 6 uplands already got delayed and pier 5 isn't even funded. And don't forget that part of pier 6 isn't yet funded and that under current proposal uplands of pier 6 will include two additional residential buildings. Oh and the BQE cantilevers have to be rebuilt. Hard to see how the area immediately surrounding the building won't be a construction zone for at least 5 years. I think potential buyers understand the vision - heck it's plastered all over the marketing materials - they just realize once they do their due diligence that they would be paying a premium to buy in when there is still years worth of work to suffer through.

"When the park is finished the building will feel much different and no vision will be needed."

IF the park is finished. We're dealing with a 4 billion dollar deficit. We've got bigger problems right now. Buyers may need to hang onto their "vision" for another decade.

Would any Brooklynite who has lived in Brooklyn for more than 5 years purchase here? No ... then why would you?

I just think the pricing for this place is ridiculous. CC are really high and I dont think you get much for it. I also didnt care for the sales guy.

So much misinformation. As for the opening of Pier 6: "Slated for a Spring 2010 opening is the area around Pier 6 where there will be 7 acres of new park, including a 1.6 acre destination playground with water play areas and innovative play equipment built into the park landscape. The area will also have three sand volleyball courts, a concession, dog run and a promenade."
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/brooklyn_bridge_park_picks_up_national_hCmGn72Dr2fQJ7muf0wS4J#ixzz0XkIPnjHM

So the completion of most of Pier 6 is not far off and it will make a huge impact on the areas surrounding 1BB (Matt, I was referring to the completion of the construction of Pier 6, not the whole park but I could see where I was unclear). It's not hard to imagine why someone want Pier 6 as their backyard, is it?

Regarding funding, funds are in place for all of Phase 1 of the park: the uplands of Pier 6, Pier 5, Pier 4 uplands, Pier 1, Brooklyn Bridge Plaza and the uplands stretching from Piers 6 to 1. Funding is still needed for Piers 2, 3, and parts of 4 and 6. So Tricks, Pier 5 is fully funded. And the residents of 1BB will not have to "suffer" through that construction work. First, the construction of a park is much different than a building (far less noise). Second, most of the work that will remain to be done is far enough north that it will not present much inconvenience.

As for the BQE, no one knows what they are going to do to repair the cantilevers and constructionn is not going to even begin for at least another 10 years. And much of the Brooklyn Heights, Cobbble Hill and surrounding areas will be affected, so should people not buy in those areas either?

So much for your due diligence Tricks, most of it is either wrong or based on supposition.

And, locher, I am a Brooklynite who has lived in Brooklyn for more than 5 years and I think that I will purchase in 1BB. So have others as the building is 25% sold and it appears another 5% is in contract (needless to say still a ways to go). And I don't care whether the people who purchase there are Brooklynites, Manhattanites or something else. Where should a Brooklynite buy? Oro/Forte/Toren? No thanks.

Finally, as for pricing, I just don't see it as ridiculous. I am looking at a 1440 sq ft space for roughly $560 sq. ft. in a new construction, condo builidng (lest we forget given how few condo builidngs there are in NYC, condos go for about 10% more than the comparable co-op). I haven't seen anything else in the area that competes with that. As for the CCs they are not significantly higher than my current building (in the Northern Heights) or many others in the Heights and you get alot more (gym and other amenities) than those buildings.

I usually enjoy this site but it really does appear that it has become a home for the mega-bears who seem to dislike every new property.

Where is a great place to buy in the Heights/Cobble Hill area right now ? Sorry for the lame post, I am a first time buyer looking for a good value. I am really interested in 1BBP, but now I am completely freaked out after reading all of these posts.

nice answer gatornyc

jtm, one of the things that I have learned over the years is to never put too much stock into what is posted on a message board (my posts included!). Message boards just seem to focus much more on the negative than the postive, but I guess that is human nature to some extent (the scorned etc. are far more motivated than those that have had positive experiences). This board, like any other board, is just one of many tools to help you make a decision. Do not put too much stock in what people here say. They are entitled to their opinions (and their agendas), but it doesn't make them right. Good luck on your search and hope you can add to the discussion.

Hi Gator,
I can almost guess what line you're talking about for that sftage & unit price. I also thought it was a deal despite the lack of natural light, BQE view & noice... that is/was until another developper has just reduced price on this one:
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/480244-condo-230-ashland-place-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn
http://www.streeteasy.com/nyc/sale/480279-condo-230-ashland-place-downtown-brooklyn-brooklyn
3 Bd vs 2, corner, 14th floor vs. below 9, 2 blocks to 2/3/4/5 & 3 blocks to B/M/Q/R vs 8 blocks/half blocks to anything, 2 long blocks to an existing park vs. a "vision"; the same price as your unit in 1BBP but with a cc + tax $500-700 lower!!!
Yes, it's in a building you listed as to your dislike (maybe, again, unitl they have reduced it to $400-500/sf). Even one's hear goes w. 1BBP, his/her head will tell him/her: this is a much more convenient & functional one, hands down!

Furthermore, if one developper in Bkln can adust price by such a proportion aforementionned, are you sure 1BBP will not do the same next year when they're still under 50% sold with the expiration of the loan extension approaching? They need to sell 100 more to get the building half-full. That would be a whole year at a pace of 2 closing/week, which doesn't really sound sustainable.
Think twice!!!

leon, I appreciate your comments, but my wife and I have visted Oro, Forte and the other Downtown Brooklyn buildings and they are simply not an option for us. That area of Downtown Brooklyn may be desirable in years to come (unfortunately I think quite a few, and the neighborhood requires more vision than even I have), but the Fulton/Flatbush corridor just is not a neighborhood we can call home. And, for us, the difference in CC, though considerable, can't make up for where the buidling is. I'll grant you its closer to transportation but the difference between the walk from Forte and the walk from 1BB to transportation is not a big deal to me. And it is not 8 blocks/half blocks from 1BB to anything...both Montague and Atlantic are a quick walk away.

Also, the unit I'm looking at has very good natural light, the BQE is only viewable if you are up against the windows and look directly down (the view is of Brooklyn not the BQE), and the noise was really quite minimal and that's without any furniture/window treatments to absorb sound. I also like the kitchen and bathroom finishes much more at 1BB. Essentailly, I'll guess we'll have to agree to disagree that Forte is more convenient than 1BB, and I just don't understand why it is more functional. For me, 1BB is the hands down favorite, and Forte is just not an option at any price, but that's me.

Lastly, I'm not sure that 1BB won't cut prices again in the future. But I also don't know whether the unit I'm intersted wlll be avaiable in two years. I'm only interested in a few units in the building and if they're gone then the building is not a option for us. So a possible price cut in the future is only one consideration (how do you know that Forte won't have to drop prices even lower to stimulate sales). Also in 1-2 years I think interest rates will be considerably higher so I am willing to trade a potentially higher price as compared to 1-2 years from now for better financing. We all would love to know where the bottom is and hit it. Alas, it is almost impossible to do, and it is again only one factor.

Hi Gator - Glad that you didn't take it as a fight.
I agree with some of your considerations but have to point out:
1. The location of 1BBP definitely looks nicer. But have you been to BPC (blanketed w. greenery along the waterfront - if ever BBP could achieve that kind of development within years!) or LIC (w. Gantry state park in place for years already) in winter? For now on until late April, waterfront parks anywhere is of no use b/c of chilly wind. What can you do for these 5 months in that faraway location? Montague is charmless, a couple of better restaurants are on the north side of BH, carrying bags of grocery in the headwind at the Jarolemon corner would be a pain in the ass...
2. The reason for high CC at 1BBP, I guess, is due to the land lease. After all, this is a 400 units without pool etc. The CC here is higher than most condo buildings in Manhattan.
3. Doesn't the line you talk about have a small second bd cut of the living-room? Don't the master bd & the second bd share a small window, making the master bd dark-ish? The 3 bd layout at Forte is definitely more functional.
4. The second we stepped into an app on the east side, my wife and I exclamated: the noise is barely noticeable. But the following minute a truck passed by, then some siren, at last HELICOPTER from East River. The difference btwn an expressway and a regular street/avenue is that the traffic doesn't die out at night - that's when heavy trucks coming into the city!
5. Don't know if you have children. But PS8 got poorly 5 out 10 by greatshcools rating.
6. 1BBP has been sitting there for 2-3 years but is only less than 30% sold. It seemed like a ghost town when I visited it: complex labyrinth-like hallway, with no real tenants in sight. I took the watertaxi to red hook last weekend at noon: all the windows facing the water are empty!!! Looks very depressing...
Do agree it has its uniqueness & charm. But I really think it's too early to pull the trigger right now. Will wait & see until next spring/summer.
If you worry about missing out some specific units at this stage, you may also need to worry about the sponsor cutting price, turning it to the bank, or the maintenance skyroketting b/c of low occupancy...
Wish you good luck & happy holiday!

leom, thanks for your very thoughtful post. This is the type of beneficial exhchange that should occur more often on this site. Before I respond to the points you raised let me wish you a happy and healthy holiday as well. Now to the points you raise:

1. Your point about a waterfront park is well taken, but I'll still take a park in winter over the Downtown Brooklyn landscape. And this is NY, not Mass, so the park will be only not be usable for at most 3-4 months (and the park will be amazing in the 9 or so months during which I will get to us it!). As for what to do in those 3 months, well anything I currently do in my current Northern Heights neighborhood. While I don't love Montague Street I do frequent it, but I don't consider it charmless and certianly prefer it to the Fulton Mall. And I look forward to the proximity of Atlantic Ave. Also I have, and will continue to have, a car so no carrying groceries for me (otherwise, Fresh Direct, Fairway etc all deliver).

2. I agree somewhat regarding the CCs. But I don't think they are much higher than most other similar buildings including those in Manhattan. My current building's CC's are similar and by way of amentities offers only basement storage and a bike room. So in 1BB I get many more amenities for little more money (other buildings in the Heights have very similar CCs). I have seen non-doorman coops with $900+ CCs so the CCs of 1BB are okay with me. I would have really liked a pool though! P.S. As you note, the land lease definitely affects the CCs but that's the price of having a park for your backyard I guess.

3. You are correct about the smaller windows in the master and second bedrooms. But the building smartly installed a reflector to increase the amount of light. I admit I would prefer the windows to be somewhat larger, but this is not a big negative for me as I like darker bedrooms (I use a bedroom for sleeping, I live in my living room and the windows there are huge). I also find the ceiling height at 1BB to be a big plus, versus the low ceilings at Forte. As for other aspects of functionality, I really don't need a third bedroom right now so I would take it out as I would much prefer more living space. As the 3bed at Forte is currenlty laid out the living room is pretty narrow, and the ceilings throughout are low. Also the master bed is small with little closet space, and the small master bath has only one sink. The layout is not exactly the most open with the kitchen sealed off from the living room

In contrast, in the apt at 1BB you are immediately impacted by the very high ceilings which gives a feeling of size and volume. The floorplan also is much more open with the kitchen flowing into a great room (living/dining room). The master bed is larger with a huge walk in closet and much larger master bath. The finishes throughout are also much nicer than Forte. Lastly, 1BB's amentities are much more extensive than Forte's and the CCs are all of $150/month more.

4. I don't know which apt you walked into, but I think the floor makes alot of difference when it comes to noise. I've been in the apt at night, during the day, on weekdays and weekends and I have not found the noise to be any more intrusive than most any other apt I lived in (okay, the apt at East End Ave and 81st was really quiet). It's the City. There's sirens, helicopters and noise no matter where you go. And I've been in several Manhattan apts that I would consider noiser. I really was expecting the noise to be an issue for me (and even moreso for my wife). We both were very pleasantly surprised that it is in fact a non-issue for us.

5. Don't have children yet, but my wife works with (not for) the NYC school system and she really knows the various schools. She likes PS8 alot. I think school ratings such as greatschools is helpful, but it is only one factor in assessing a school. Compared to PS20 (Forte's zoning), I'll take PS8 any day. It's one of the few public schools to which I would send my children (to be).

6. I agree there is risk in buying into a building in these times that is 30% sold. I have done my research and I am comforted by the 2 year extension with the lender, the activity at the builidng after the price reductions etc. I am looking at this purchase with a long term view. I would be in the apt for at least 7-10 years and possibly much longer and then could use it as an investment property. So if there are more price cuts so be it. As much as we would all like to purchase at the absolute bottom, I think $560 sq ft is gettin prety close. If prices drop another 10-15% I can live with that over the long term. Locking in a mortagage at historically low rates as compared to what's coming down the line will help offset that decline if it happens.

Don't get me wrong, there are negatives at 1BB, I just think there are far more positives.

Good luck to you and again very much appreciated your post. I look forward to any other comments you may have.

gatornyc, feel free to borrow sugar from us anytime. Did you finalize a unit yet? I am 3 weeks from closing, though I am renting out my unit until the summer- I have to finish my uws rental lease thru July.

Hi Gator - Go with your heart then! I still prefer to hold it for at least couple of months. Wish you good luck with the buying process. Hope to hear about your experience living in the building soon. :)

"You are correct about the smaller windows in the master and second bedrooms. But the building smartly installed a reflector to increase the amount of light. I admit I would prefer the windows to be somewhat larger, but this is not a big negative for me as I like darker bedrooms (I use a bedroom for sleeping, I live in my living room and the windows there are huge)."

The problem isn't necessarily the size of the windows, but their high placement. It makes you feel like you're living in a basement apartment.

gator (and leom), just wanted to add appreciation for your very thoughtful comments. we've been watching this place for a long time now.. there's a lot to like about the building.

btw, pinkpanther mentioned they think the sponsor has to pay CC until 35% occupied.. i don't recall that from the offering plan when i glanced through it. anyone else know?

If the sponsor has to do that until 35% occupied, I would dump a few apartments on the market, as a sponsor, just to save a small fortune. With gator and a few others buying, the gravy train is coming to an end. After that, the owners will be stuck with the bills and no additional sales. Maintenance can only go one way and that is up. If you feel that the maintenance is reasonable now, just wait for 2 years and reassess.

I feel like after a temporary momentum, which might barely get it to 35% sold, the sales will be sluggish again unless they make another drastic chop in price on the harbor side units. Just common sense:
1. B/c of big average size, many 2bd units not facing BQE are priced in the 1.2-1.5 mm range, 2bd w. home office and 3bd 1.4-1.8 mm: how many potential buyers in this price range are willing to buy on the edge of Brooklyn Heights? Check out recent sales in prime BH: 1.2-1.5 mm can get you spacious 3 bd with Manhattan view in the high rise co-op w. low maintenance on Henry St, or decent 3bd in charming prewar building, or 1100sf interior w. a 2000sf landscaped garden in the middle of ramsen... Why do these buyers want to cross the BQE then?
2. Even if they are willing to, how many people can easily get a jumbo loan in the building less than 50% sold?
3. This is a very large building, they need to sell 80 units to get 20% more sold. Give it 2 closings per week or 10 per month, we'll be close to the end of year 2010 - within 6 months of the expiration of the developper's loan extension in spring 2011: fire sale of the remaing 200 units or turning them to the bank are two very likely options, except the RE maiket dramatically improves by that time. However, most RE specialists are worrying about a second leg down.
"Park or no park" can't do much for the factors above.

apartments really arent all that great. the windows will be a pain to keep clean. the whole building looks brown on the inside. the park definitely wont be getting finished anytime soon. i will definitely pass on this place. plus sales teams acre clearly foolish. they told me that some rental apartments will be coming back for sale, but will be delivered to me "new"...riiiiight...they must have a time machine.

"Google maps says it's .26 miles from the building to the Court Street subways (2/3/4/5/N/R). That falls in line perfectly with gator's assertion that his wife walked that distance in 7 minutes. The average person walks 4 miles per hour. At that rate, you're going about a quarter of a mile in seven minutes (.26 mile)."

ROTFL. Yes, if you are FLYING.

Dude, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Google Maps Distance - "An important feature of this tool is that is "as the crow flies", so traveling in real life will normally involve larger distances, but this may also help those who need to measure off-road distances."

> 206 Front Street

Thats not DUMBO, thats Vinegar Hill.. .but try again...

"And much of the Brooklyn Heights, Cobbble Hill and surrounding areas will be affected, so should people not buy in those areas either?"

Huh? The work will below the bqe... meaning right in the "park". BH residents will have a view of the work, but its not going to be smack dab in the middle of where they are.

Cobble Hill will not be affected..... that section isn't being fixed.

Its the terraces that are going, and all the work will be exactly where the park is supposed to go.

This will be primarily affecting 1bbp and any buildings nearby.

"ROTFL. Yes, if you are FLYING."

Except you can actually walk in a straight line all the way down Joralemon St to get to the train. Think before jumping down someone's throat, lest you look like the clueless one.

> Google maps says it's .26 miles from the building to the Court Street subways

Nope, it doesn't. Google maps says its .5 miles to 205 Joralemon (slightly before Borough Hall). And add more for 2/3 or NR...

But I guess I still have to try that flying thing.

somewhere,we can dispense with the whole google maps controversy. My wife and I have walked from OBBP to the 4/5 several times and it has not taken us more than 7 minutes walking at a reasonable pace. Have you done the walk even once? My point is I just don't get the argument that OBBP is so inconvenient to transportation. The 2/3/4/5/N/R/M are all located within 7-8 minutes as compared to the supposedly much more conveniently located DUBMO, which is proximate to the F (not the best train for most) and the A/C a bit further away (close to the same walk as OBBP to the 4/5). If a builidng that is convenient to transportation is a 2-4 minute walk to a subway, I can definitely deal with the 3-5 minute difference to be on the water and in a park. There are many, many buildings that are much, much less convenient to transporation, i.e., anything on York or East End Avenue, BPC, the westernmost portions of the West Side to name a few.

Also, regarding the BQE reconstruction, I know the section that is being fixed. Where do you think the traffic will be diverted to when all or most of the BQE lanes are closed during construction? The neighborhood associations in Brooklyn Heights, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens etc. are already organizing in this regard. And the buildings along the westernmost streets of Brooklyn Heights would be much more affected by the construction noise than OBBP, which is located at the southernmost edge of the contruction. So I don't know where you get that the BQE construction will primarily affect OBBP. In any event, no one knows exactly what this work will involve and it won't even begin for at least 10 years. Give me a 10-15 year time frame and I can show you a major issue that may affect any bulding.

marco_m, what builidngs do you like? If the apts in OBBP aren't that great because the windows may be tough to keep clean, I really wonder what would pass muster with you. Way to nitpick. And I would hardly call the whole building brown on the inside. I've certainly seen more attractive hallways etc., but I think they are quite nice and, in any event, I live in my apartment not the hallway. Lastly, the uplands of Pier 6 will be open in the spring and that will make a big difference. While the entire park will take several more years to complete, I am more concerned with the portions of the park that are in the immediate area of OBBP and those will be done soon.

leom, thoughful comments as usual. But why do you dismiss one of the most attractive aspects of OBBP that being the "big average size" of the apartments. One of the things that most people who live in NYC crave most is more space! So the reason to cross the BQE (which is actually incorrect, because you're walking under it not across it, but I know what you meant!) is more space, really high ceilings, soon to be completed Pier 6 of Brooklyn Bridge Park, HVAC (I personally hate not being able to control the heat except by how much my window is open) etc. And OBBP is one underpass away from quintessential, prime Heights.

Also, using your numbers, if OBBP get to 55-60% sold by the end of the current extension given by the lender, I think another extension is far more likely than the remaining units being turned over to the lender or fire-saled (the building gets easier to sell as the % increases). I also think your unit values do not account for the many courtyard view units that are being offered for less then the ranges you cited. I'm certainly not saying that there is no risk involved in a purchase at OBBP. I just think the benefits and potential upside outweigh the risks.

muskateer, I agree that there is much to like about OBBP and that it outweighs the few negatives and risk. I look forward to hearing what you decide to do.

jocoru, we have not finalized a purchase yet. Working on it though. I will be happy to take you up on the sugar someday!

> Have you done the walk even once?

Yes, probably 15 times.

And you're still off your rocker.

> I can definitely deal with the 3-5 minute difference to be on the water and in a park.

Yes, because DUMBO doesn't have those. Especially not one thats been, uh, finished for several years.

WOW, have you ever actually been to Brooklyn?

Perhaps you should visit before you comment.

" And the buildings along the westernmost streets of Brooklyn Heights would be much more affected by the construction noise than OBBP, which is located at the southernmost edge of the contruction."

You are kidding, right? The specific thing being worked on is FEET from the windows of 1BBP. And the materials and trucks will all be right next to it.

You're a funny, funny guy.

"Give me a 10-15 year time frame and I can show you a major issue that may affect any bulding."

Yes, every other building in town will have one of the largest construction projects ever feet from their window.

Wow, talk about lousy rationalization.

"But why do you dismiss one of the most attractive aspects of OBBP that being the "big average size" of the apartments."

Because its already factored into the price... the psfs are insane.

Seriously, TOO EASY. Your logic just isn't very good.

"Give me a 10-15 year time frame and I can show you a major issue that may affect any bulding."

How much more should one paid when the issue is... uh, guaranteed?

;-)

somewherelse, you're just not very bright. So chill out on the lecturing. It's kind of embarrassing

Idiot, I'm sorry you made a stupid purchase, but don't try and take out your mistake on others.

I'm sorry you don't like the facts - its amusing that you have no response to the actual points, just insults - but that won't bring back your money.

"I haven't regretted my decision one bit."

Yes, your lashing out irrationally is clear proof of that one.

LOL

Here's an attempt at an objective analysis of this building - take it for what you paid for it...
Pros
- Spectacular/protected views (from some units)
- Park to be (albeit coming in stages starting soon, finishing who knows when)
- Quality finishes
- 15 year tax abatement
- Conversion - concrete construction/sound abatement between units
- Accessible parking & storage

Cons
- Risk of condo non-viability/common charge increases/loss of equity/no exit strategy [84/438 sales recorded, ie less than 20%]
- Land lease significantly raises cc
- BQE proximity contributes to 24/7 noise, air pollution, dirt incl for all access to/from building
- Proximity to established amenities including public transportation, stores, restaurants
- Risk of flooding/Hurricane damage
- Risk to views/construction noise on South side (if other planned condos built) and harbor-facing townhouses (depending on tree plantings)

Moot
- Amenity rooms/staffing levels - convenience vs higher cc
- Size of building - labyrinth of corridors/distance just to enter unit/exit building vs more units to share fixed costs
- Exterior/curb appeal - monolithic/gray/large visible mechanicals vs deco features
- Water exposure - summer breeze vs winter windchill
- High ceilings - aesthetics vs utility costs
- Window size/height from floor - light/views vs privacy
- HVAC units - room level zoning vs space/aesthetics
- Rentals - contribution to viability vs principal/agent problem
- Schools - mixed reviews on PS8, good private options but tight supply

tricks, good summary. the one thing it leaves out (possibly intentionally) is pricing. Pros and cons, sure... but the thing was priced as if it has no cons....

Tricks, a couple of comments.

-- The 15-year tax abatement is a CON. Sure, it's a "pro" for the moment, but after a few years, when (if) you try to resell, skyrocketing taxes looming on the horizon are NOT a good selling point to a prospective buyer.

-- Risk of flooding or hurricane damage? I don't think so. The ocean doesn't "rise" like a river (and if it did, the world would have bigger problems than flooding at One Brooklyn Bridge Park). And as far as hurricane damage -- the place is built like a fortress. This isn't Florida -- for the occasional hurricane that hits New York City every 20 years or so, I don't think this is even worth worrying about.

-- Proximity to restaurants, stores and transportation is a "con"? It's FOUR BLOCKS to Borough Hall, and SEVEN train lines.

-- Window height DOES make some rooms feel like you're living in a basement apartment.

-- I'll second the water exposure. I walked up and down Joralemon Street for 10 years, and I can tell you that in the winter time, the wind rushing up the street off the harbor is BRUTAL. Invest in a good hat and scarf!

-- I'll also second the BQE issue. Not so much the noise (you really don't notice it with the windows closed), but the GRIME. Leaving my windows open meant not just dust, but actual SOOT everywhere in my apartment. I'd have to wash the windows twice a year, just to be able to see out of them.

"-- Proximity to restaurants, stores and transportation is a "con"? It's FOUR BLOCKS to Borough Hall, and SEVEN train lines."

Matt can keep jumping up and down, but this is about as desolate an area one can find at this price level.

MAJOR. MAJOR con.

And I wouldn't listen to Matt, he keeps getting the distances wrong (including naming Google as a source, and giving half the distance Google notes... AND Google isn't a walking distance, its an as the crow flies).

"AND Google isn't a walking distance, its an as the crow flies)."

The crow flies up Joralemon Street.

As the people walk.

Did the crow fly around the earth fast enough to turn a mile into two blocks, too?

- Pricing: I deliberately left it out since there's always been a wide range and it's a fluid situation; what I'm trying to figure out is whether the pros outweight the cons exogenous of price/macro-economic factors
- Tax abatement: fair point, maybe this moves to the moot section depending on time horizon, desire for lower near-term vs long-term monthlies
- Flooding/Hurricane damage: I'm talking about risk of storm surge, not runoff. Check out the maps on fema.gov or propertyshark.com and you'll see this building is in a zone classified as "high risk"
- Proximity to amenities: the basic point is that if you plan to walk, everything is far enough (and up a steep hill) that you'll think twice about each and every errand you run or whether you go out for an inpromptu dinner or settle for ordering takeout... Especially as most of the places I like aren't on Montague but North Heights or Cobble Hill/Boerum Hill/Carroll Gardens, which are further still. They'll get some retail in the building eventually and maybe more places open up on Columbia Pl but for now there's virtually zippo within 5 mins (new cafe on Columbia Pl, possibly deli on State/Hicks) and I think choices will remain very limited. As for public transport, once you get to Boro Hall I agree that there are good subway options but the orange van has to be an admission that it's just not that close... I'm a fast walker and I've struggled to get any change out of 10 mins (from the bottom of Joralemon which is a straight shot whereas it could easily be another 5 mins to/from an apt to that corner) - no biggie on a pleasant day when you're not in a big hurry or if you take black cars or drive everywhere but for the rest of the time something "you'll learn to deal with" rather than a selling point
- BQE: I think the usual hum of traffic becomes white noise after a while but it's the 18 wheelers hitting expansion joints or honking their airhorns and the compulsion to keep the windows closed in order to mitigate noise and grime (better than my "dirt" word - thanks!) that I'd be more concerned with
- Windows: I overlooked the bigger negative which is window-less rooms (AKA home offices) in many of the lines that would work for me. It's true of many lines in the Sweeney building too, but I think it is reflected in a lower $/sqft for those lines than the B line (which is on the corner so has "proper" bedrooms)

OK, we're pretty seriously considering this building, and I'm doing research. I seem to be getting obfuscation from the broker... I've read on this post that there is a tax abatement (never mentioned) and that CC can be negotiated out. My levers are CC, asking price, and closing costs. Sounds like closing costs are easily negotiated - that's great. Should I push for CC? And what's up with Tax abatement, why wouldn't the broker push that - seems strange.

Wilfred, my understanding is the 1BB has both a a tax abatement and an exemption. The exemption is 15 years and begins to phasing out after 10 years while the abatement lasts for 20 years (not sure of when or if it phases out). The exemption/abatement appear better than most other buildings.

As for the CCs, I'm not sure what extent that this can be negotiated. However, apparently, the sponsor is obligated to pay CCs until the building is 35% sold or some number like that.

Also, what do mean "obfuscation from the broker? Your broker or the building's agent? I'm not sure that the broker will necessarily push the abatement. I asked about it and the information was quickly provided.

Wilfred- I am currently under contract for something in the 25 line. Gatornyc is correct about the abatement. I do not think the cc can be negotiated, as they are in the offering plan an have to do with the building's budget (about a 6 million per year operating budget)- in fact, these could go up a bit 2 years from now, if units are unsold or unrented (unlikley)- I 'negotiated' that the sponsor pay the transfer taxes (about 13k) and also the first 6 months common charges- I pushed for more, but was denied- However, nobody has yet to pay an cc and the broker also referenced the 35%, though Idid not see this in writing - I will be looking at this as a nice surprise if it goes beyond 6 months. Good luck

Thanks Gator & jocoru. What I meant by obfuscation is that she didn't mention the tax abatement - which is of course a selling point. Since this money goes to the city, and not the sponsor, I'm sure it was just an oversight, on further reflection. Thanks for the info, I'm sure we'll have more questions after we see the units tomorrow.

So we went today and saw a few places. Apparently she didn't forget to mention the tax abatement or exemption, the taxes are just much higher than I had expected. Any idea what the taxes will be once the abatement/exemption is up? Seems like right now it's about $0.258/sq ft. a month?

They should have given you that information. When i was looking there they gave with and without exemption tax info. i think the common charges are scarier than the taxes

typically with a 15 yr tax abatement they will start phasing in the taxes from years 10 to 15 at about an additional 20%/yr

"- Proximity to amenities: the basic point is that if you plan to walk, everything is far enough (and up a steep hill) that you'll think twice about each and every errand you run or whether you go out for an inpromptu dinner or settle for ordering takeout... Especially as most of the places I like aren't on Montague but North Heights or Cobble Hill/Boerum Hill/Carroll Gardens, which are further still. They'll get some retail in the building eventually and maybe more places open up on Columbia Pl but for now there's virtually zippo within 5 mins (new cafe on Columbia Pl, possibly deli on State/Hicks) and I think choices will remain very limited."

Bingo. This thing is VERY isolated with no real changes to that on the horizon.

"As for public transport, once you get to Boro Hall I agree that there are good subway options but the orange van has to be an admission that it's just not that close..."

Double bingo. I know some posters can fly, but the fact that you have to drive people....

"I'm a fast walker and I've struggled to get any change out of 10 mins (from the bottom of Joralemon which is a straight shot whereas it could easily be another 5 mins to/from an apt to that corner) - no biggie on a pleasant day when you're not in a big hurry or if you take black cars or drive everywhere but for the rest of the time something "you'll learn to deal with" rather than a selling point ""

Learning to deal with is not something you do at $1k psf in Brooklyn.

"- BQE: I think the usual hum of traffic becomes white noise after a while but it's the 18 wheelers hitting expansion joints or honking their airhorns and the compulsion to keep the windows closed in order to mitigate noise and grime (better than my "dirt" word - thanks!) that I'd be more concerned with"

Triple bingo.

We are interested in this building and looking to buy here perhaps in the late spring/summer if the prices drop again. What do people think are the chances of that happening? I appreciate the advice!

gatornyc: "my understanding is the 1BB has both a a tax abatement and an exemption. The exemption is 15 years and begins to phasing out after 10 years while the abatement lasts for 20 years (not sure of when or if it phases out). The exemption/abatement appear better than most other buildings."

Sorry for being naive, but what is the difference b/w the exemption and the abatement? I was told the abatement was for 25 years, but was not told about a 15 year exemption.

hopingtobuy, based on some research the difference generally is that an exemption reduces the amount of assessment subject to taxation, while an abatement is a tax credit that directly reduces tax liability imposed on the property. How exactly this plays out gets very complicated, but in the case of OBBP as compared to most other buildings the end result is that taxes will stay lower longer and will be reduced by a greater percentage for a longer period of time (that is that compared to a building that only has an abatement -- which is graduated, i.e., abated at 80% for years 1-5, 60% for years 5-7 and 40% for years 7-10 -- OBBP will stay lower longer because even as the abatement is graduated up, the exemption will keep taxes lower).

and then when the abatement and exemptions run out, they'll be giving those condos away because their taxes will be in $20K range. with the crazy maintenance and the taxes, it will be cheaper to rent in BH then buy here.

read the bottom of page 2 and top of page 3. this will affect most new developments. the problem with OBBP is the rediculous CC on top of that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/realestate/08COV.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&sq=tax abatement property condo&st=nyt&scp=18

ab_11218, I've read the article before. I, and hopefully all buyers, understand how the abatement works. For OBBP the abatement is for 20 years and it doesn't start to be phased out for 10 years. As the abatement went into affect only this past July, taxes will be flat until 2019. After that taxes will be graduated upwards over the next 10 years but this will be limited by a tax exemption which lasts for 14 years. So OBBP is much different than the situation that the article refers to. As for the impact in 15-20 years, no one knows what the tax situation will be like then. I tend to think that taxes on coops will be adjusted upwards to address the inequity of taxes on condos verseus coops so the difference you allude to will likely will not exist.

As for the alleged "rediculous" CCs at OBBP, we've had this debate. On the Brooklyn Heights 2bed/2 bath thread and other threads, I showed that other buildings have similar charges without even having a doorman let alone the other amenities that OBBP offers. You have yet to provide comps that would demonstrate that OBBP's CCs are high let alone ridiculous.

gatornyc- curious where you are in the process now- I am still under contract but have put in an offer for a different unit. drop me a line at jocoru@aol.com

The prices at OBBP are too high, sales and C.C. If you want to buy there, that's your choice. If you wait a bit, RAL will lower the sales prices. Even if he says he will not, and especially if he says he will not.

You folks are creating your own bubble. RAL is depending on people who will do that. He needs to move those units. He's got other problems to deal with, at his other developments. Other banks. Other deals. All products of his own, distorted id.

Just when you thought there could be a OBBP thread without Truth here he/she is with the usual missive on RAL. The prices have been cut at OBBP Truth or hadn't you heard? I thought you were so well connected with RAL. And you have absolutely no comps to support a position that the CCs are too high. Go stalk another building. No one is buying your RAL rants here.

Gator: I thought you ran away from this site. I am a "she", as I have already stated. Yes, the prices have been cut, but only after years of RAL stating to the Press, that he would not be cutting prices. Just Google, and you will have : "proof".

In my opinion, the prices are too high, and I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you to yours. If others didn't also agree, your building would be sold out by now. But, it's not. Not even after that car "giveaway".

So, it seems that no one is "buying" your rants here.

You bought in at an overpriced building, maybe before the price cuts.
It's obvious that you are deeply invested there. Of course you would like the building to sell the remaining units.

If it's such a great building, why doesn't RAL or any of his kids live there? His son Spencer lives on Joralemon Street, not at OBBP. Why would he live in Brooklyn Heights, but not at OBBP?

Or, maybe YOU are one of RAL's sons, employees, or his dreadful P.R. person.

You all want to create a bubble for that ill-conceived development.

If you want to see evidence of my knowing RAL, I'd be happy to show it to you. I have wriiten, recorded, and photo evidence. Why don't you meet me, at the Franklin Tower building, and bring RAL with you. THAT will be the day! RAL is breaking out in shingles, just reading this.

My "connection" to RAL ended, when I found out that he screwed me, and other people I know. He now has many 'former' friends and business associates. We all have "evidence" about RAL. And, I keep getting new reports about him, from people here and especially in Telluride, where he developed two hotels. His latest is a 200 million dollar joke. There are condos for sale in that hotel. Nobody else is buying those overpriced condos, so why don't you buy one?

RAL's birthday was yesterday. It's not too late to run over to his office, and kiss his feet. It will take you more than 8 minutes to walk there.

Truth, "ran away from this site"? Why would I do that; someone's got to keep you in line. I was enjoying my vacation, but it's nice to know that you missed me.

Your arguments make no sense (and some are just plain wrong, but we'll get to that in a minute) so I don't know why I bother but here goes.

1) You say "If it's such a great building, why doesn't RAL or any of his kids live there? His son Spencer lives on Joralemon Street, not at OBBP." What this has to do with anything I'm not quite sure. RAL has several properties and, I think, three kids so they can't live in all of them. Maybe they like a different type of building. What the hell does it matter? In any event it seems you are wrong. In a January 30 interview, Levine said that his son Spencer lives in OBBP. Here's the link: http://therealdeal.com/newyork/articles/the-closing-robert-levine-6 (but you probably read it already as it is probably where you learned when his birthday was!).

2) RAL cut prices at OBBP "but only after years of RAL stating to the Press, that he would not be cutting prices." Wow, that's just incredible. Sounds like just about every developer in existence. They won't tell you that they will cuts prices until they actually do. Much ado about nothing and certainly not proof of anything.

3) You say that the building is overpriced because if it weren't it would be sold out. I guess that also applies to virtually every other new condo development. Or maybe as the old adage goes "its the economy stupid." What I do know is that units are selling. Is the building going to sell out tomorrow? No, but it's got good momentum and it looks like it will continue. Or didn't you see that that the founder of investment managment firm bought six units to combine at a price of $8.495 million. Here's the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/realestate/07deal1.html?ref=realestate. Or that OBBP is going to be featured on the new HGTV show "Selling New York." Sounds like great publicity if you ask me.

4) I have never ranted here or elsewhere about OBBP. Rather, I have had earnest and open discussions about OBBP and at times provided a counterpoint to the bears and those who anonomously take pot shots at the building. And I disclosed from the beginning my interest in the building and that I went into contract for a unit in the beginning of January. So no I didn't buy before the price cuts.

5) I don't know RAL, I've never met him, and certainly don't work for him. I'm just an ordinary buyer and my wife and I made the right choice for us. You're right that I have an interest in the building; I would like to see it sell out. But I've never hyped the building, I 've only provided information and a viewpoint contrary to the bears on the board. Show me one post where I've hyped the building.

6) You, on the other hand, want to see OBBP fail and your rants are intended to scare people away from the building. You were purportedly "screwed" by RAL (though we have to take your word on that; I for one don't) and now you have it out for him and his projects. You are very deeply vested in your agenda.

In sum, your certainly entitled to you opinion and I can't stop you from voicing it. I can and will continue to point out that you never offer facts to back up your opinion and that your agenda is to see the building fail because you believe that RAL screwed you.

Not to see the building fail -- just to get the facts out there. Stop crying, Gator.
I've known RAL's birthday for 25 years, as long as I've known him.
Spencer lives in the building now? Since when?

I've offered facts. You didn't even believe that RAL has a record with the A.G.

yawn.

Right, Truth. You mention OBBP and/or RAL in virtually every one of your posts on SE, whether the thread is about OBBP or not, but you're just trying to get the facts out there.

And yes according to the interview Levine's son Spencer lives in OBBP. Don't know and don't care how long. But you were wrong on this.

I never questioned that RAL has a record with the AG. I and others pointed out that most developers have a record with the AG.

Who's crying Truth? Certainly not me. But you are crying and whining about how you were screwed by RAL. Go somewhere else and lick your wounds.

agreed villager. This discussion is tiresome and pointless. I shouldn't let Truth get to me but I hate to see this drivel go without response.

Gator: Meet me and I will show you evidence. If not, stop demanding it from me. Bring your deed and photo I.D., and I will bring my credentials.
If you don't meet with me, as I'm offering -- you will continue to post comments which will indeed be drivel.
Amazing how you are checking here, even while on vacation.

The only person crying and whining, right now, is RAL.
He's reading this and wishing you would stop challenging me.
RAL knows what evidence I have.

Oh, and Gator: You will never get RAL to show up at Franklin Tower, or anywhere else to meet. So, let's meet at Nobu. I'll have the owner, Drew Nieporent, there to confirm my identity, and that he also knows RAL. And, also knows that I've known RAL for 25 years.

Really Gator, let's set this matter straight. After you see the evidence with your own eyes, I will buy you dinner and you can have as many drinks as you want.