Formal Dining vs. Open Kitchen with Dining Combo?

You aren't going to get a hard and fast answer. Open kitchens are in vogue generally, but they have major drawbacks in the opinions of some: cooking odors permeating the apartment; mess being visible to diners; a more "family" type look than an elegant one; no where for help to disappear to if you've hired someone to help with a dinner or cocktail party. The formal dining room solves these problems, but if one person in the family is the cook, they are always cloistered in the kitchen and not a part of things as family and guests are in the other rooms. Being cut off can really suck. I am the cook and hating being alone all the time during meal prep hours. I guess if you have kids, it is harder to watch them in a closed kitchen, too.

Consider a compromise if that is possible. Perhaps opening 1/2 of a wall instead of removing the entire wall. Or having a well-designed pass through that can be closed with shutters or the like. There are often many creative possible solutions.

thank you kyle. I am concerned about opening the kitchen to the dining room from a resale value point of view. I personally much prefer an open kitchen -however, I am being told by my RE broker that it is not a good idea as potential future buyers are going to prefer a formal dining room???

I agree with your broker. With formal dining rooms becoming bedrooms and what not, you need to consider resale if you are in a prewar building, much less Park Ave. Many a trendy updates became deal killers a few years later. I like open kitchen in post war, it works. Also, with kids, an open kitchen is far better. It's a tough one, but of course it's going to be your home and what works better for you.

I think open kitchens are a trend that is going to pass--particularly for the wealthier among us. Real dining room will never be a draw back upon resale. Open kitchen could.

Dont worry about resale in this case, live your life how you want to. When you go to sell, pople will see the floorplan and know they can put the wall back (even if it is not indicated by a dotted line)...

I will echo kylewest's thoughts as he is usually right about all things renovation. We did a complete gut of a Sutton Place apartment that had a large formal dining room. In searching for the right compromise, i went to the Architect and Design center on 58th and noted Clive Christian's kitchen/dining rooms. They had some gorgeous arched pass-thru windows and we shamelessly copied their idea. We opened half a wall, built a raised bar on the dining room side that sort of hides the kitchen counter prep mess, and had molding fabricated to enhance/formalize the arch. i can now cook while still conversing with my guests and really love the whole layout. To complete the picture, we also had a large mirror with one way glass made for over the dining room buffet and behind it is a flat screen tv. Thus i can watch tv while doing the prep work for dinners etc and yet no one would ever know there is a tv in the dining room. Quite ingenious and again shamelessly copied from some hotel we stayed in!

We could do a thread of all the trendy changes in buildings just in the last thirty years that are deal killers today. I had said in a thread last year that in the future, many a wall will be replaced at high expense so not to have the exposed kitchen. IMO.

Semi-open kitchen. If the DR is immediately adjacent to the kitchen, you get the best of both worlds. There are a few ways to do this, depending on how your kitchen is configured.

If the long side of the kitchen is adjacent to the DR, consider opening up most of the wall, and installing a long counter with some space to sit at on the other side. You can put up pocket doors, which stay closed for a formal occasion. I have seen this done very tastefully.

I have the short end of a galley kitchen open to the dining room. The wall is not completely down - but it is open right up to the edges of the cabinets. 8' high opening. The other side of the galley kitchen is completely open to the LR and I have recently installed a counter-height island which we use ALL the time.

What's your preference? First and foremost, if you're buying for a long-term "forever apt.", then you should do whatever you like and fits your lifestyle. By the time you re-sell it your changes will all be so out-of date that the buyer will want to completely renovate anyways.

That said, if you want to re-sell more quickly, you should keep the formal DR. If it's a Park Avenue apt, the new buyers will want a formal DR. People who want open kitchens tend to prefer new construction and/or more modern buildings and are less likely to choose to live on Park. I haven't done the work, but would expect to find fewer apts. on Park with open kitchens for this reason. It'll take longer to sell and that will cost you money.

Semi-open, half-open, and pass throughs solve your immediate issue without creating a huge problem for buyers, but I don't think that buyers will appreciate this work and doubt that you could recoup your renovation costs.

With that said, most people who are buying an apt. will want to renovate to suit their tastes. It may not be a critical factor if they expect to do renovations.

Bill: I look forward to your thread.

"I guess if you have kids, it is harder to watch them in a closed kitchen, too."

If you can afford to live on Park, you can afford to either a) have a cook or b) have a nanny or c) both.

I would knock the wall down and design the kitchen in such a way that prior to closing it is easy to put back. that solves the problem of you getting what you want and the next owner getting their separate dining room.

Matt, don't guess at how the other half (or 1%) live. Nanny's have days off, not that many people have full time cooks anymore, and just because you can afford a two bedroom apartment on Park doesn't mean you have household staff. Plenty of mom's and dad's still watch their own kids at times. It isn't exactly Upstairs/Downstairs or The Help all up and down Park Ave.

Kyle, I don't have to guess. I KNOW how people live.

By the way, the apostrophe "s" is to be used only in the case of possessive nouns. Pluralizing nouns, add only the "s" (and the plural of "nanny" is "nannies".)

TIA!

This is a tough question to answer without knowing your price point, the rest of your layout, and the number of years you expect to hold until resale. Since your broker knows these things and is counseling "separate dining room," I would go with 23 and ab, and open up the kitchen in such a way that it's fairly easy to close up again.

One add'l point I'd make is that renovations obsolesce faster the higher the price point. So if you're talking about a somewhat fancy property (I can't tell if "Park Avenue" is shorthand here for "$5 mm apartment" or not) and planning on holding for a while, it really doesn't matter, because your kitchen will become obsolete no matter which design choices you make.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

i would definately retain the configuration of the formal dining room. Many many buyers want that. It increases the value of your property.

Some kitchens never go out of style: http://www.papermichelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/kitchen.bmp

Love that kitchen. The only thing wrong is the dishwasher.

Matt
great photo

formal dining room rules.
Not so easy to pull off.
Hate the L shape

On those lines, http://www.flickr.com/photos/37166458@N06/3941902969/.

But wait! More photos of the aqua kitchen: http://retrorenovation.com/2009/08/03/soffits-midcentury-kitchens-need-them/

Love those gleaming cabinets!!!

Why change something when it's so perfect?

http://www.moma.org/interactives/exhibitions/2010/counter_space/the_frankfurt_kitchen

I went to this exhibition & a similar one in London (I think it was at Victoria and Albert).

Better pictures.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129935115

And I was dying, just dying over the built-in storage containers.

Falco, what "L shapes"?
L = dining area, not formal dining room.

Whenever I entertain, everyone always ends up in the kitchen, no matter what size the home is. I love open kitchens because that is how real people live. Why shouldn't it be the best room in the house!

Has anybody asked what is the purpose of this purchase? How long do you plan to live there?

If you are planing on living there more then 10 years I would just do what you want without a thought about resale. The chances are pretty good that whoever buys your apartment will renovate the kitchen anyway

"Whenever I entertain, everyone always ends up in the kitchen, no matter what size the home is."

Those sound like some sad parties.

They make you do the dishes, too??

Sorry, I meant to say YOU make them do the dishes too?

I agree with Kyle that you can do a nice-looking pass-through and get the best of both worlds. We did this -- kept our formal DR but added a mahogany-encased pass-through with shutters that was designed to look like it had always been there. (The wood on the DR side extends to the floor, and there's a plate rack above the opening.) We love having the sightline but are glad we still have the option of closing the kitchen off when we need to. Ask your architect for some creative ways to incorporate a pass-through.

Really, Matt? I thought this was a universal phenomenon. And, yes, sometimes we all do the dishes! Nothing sad about it.

I will likely be in the apartment for 5 to 10 years. I appreciate all of the commentary - it has been very helpful! I am now leaning towards keeping the kitchen closed with a "tasteful" way of creating a pass through.

Fred, I'm also of the opinion that if you're going to stay there a long time, just do what you want and forget about worrying about resale value. In ten years, ANYTHING will look "dated" anyway and the new buyers will do what they will. Life's too short. Do what makes you happy.

I personally like formal dinign rooms. How about installing a wall with pocket doors so that this way you can have both an open kitchen and a formal dining room?

The OP wrote: "I personally much prefer an open kitchen"

You live there. You cook there. It is your home. You prefer an open kitchen. Please, PLEASE, disregard what strangers on the internet may say, and renovate with what your preferences, and your money, reflect.

Everybody on this forum seems to want to spend *their* money on what *others* prefer.

:::shaking head in disbelief:::

Socialist
about 2 hours ago
ignore this person
report abuse I personally like formal dinign rooms. How about installing a wall with pocket doors so that this way you can have both an open kitchen and a formal dining room

Shouldn't you be eating elbow to elbow with the other proletariat comrades in a soup kitchen style set-up somewhere? Doesn't a formal dining room smack of capitalism?

good one hones