Architect vs Contractor

I am in contract on apt and am planning on taking out some closets and putting up a wall. I was told that I needed to have an architect's plan even though no structural work involved. I think the requirement varies by bldg

I'll tell you this: without a signed set of construction drawings detailing every single thing that is to be done, every finish, every detail, every hinge, you will encounter cost overruns and time delays. However you proceed, there must be a set of drawings or you enter an abyss. An estate reno is a lot of work. Treat it that way.

Hi AVM,
I can only speak for myself, but I've just completed a reno in a post-war condo which included new paint throughout, new floors throughout, 1.5 bathrooms reno but no structural changes, new kitchen floors/counters/sink/fridge, new fixtures etc....

We did NOT hire an architect nor need one. We interviewed a number of G.C's and though the G.C. will definitely save some headaches, we passed on their services since they were tacking on 20K in costs just to use them. The best decision we made was the use our building vendor for as much as we could (they did paint and flooring) and then EurotileRemodeling for the baths/kitchen work. One of the main issues for delays in our case were simple things like insurance certificates and using a building known vendor alleviates this since they already have these on file and know them.

For our building, we only need an architects plans if there will be structural/wall/plumbing changes. Otherwise, a simple "scope of work" is requested and typically approved in 24 hours.

I would really say you do NOT need to hire an architect at all. A G.C. is a great thing to hire if you don't have the time to supervise and hire contractors yourself, but you can save considerable money not using one.

As Kyle said, most importantly, just have every single detail mapped out BEFORE you start. Every finish, fixture, hinge, knob etc. I spent so long just trying to decide on bathroom tile it was ridiculous!

I can give you some rec's also if you would like. You can email me at angel9894 at aol dot com.

Good luck!

I might be a little biased as I am a contractor but i will put in my two sense.

Some of what everyone is saying is correct and I believe some is also wrong. It really does depend on the building, some will require an architect for almost all renovations most do not. If you were just doing bathrooms and a kitchen and not moving any of the fixtures then you really do not need an architect, same obviously goes for flooring, painting and custom millwork.

It is nice to have a set of drawings to work from but 60% of my projects don't have them and it does not cause us any problems. If you look under portfolio on my website www.primerenovationsnyc.com 1/2 of those projects had an architect.

As far as using the buildings "vendors", I have heard more horror stories with people hiring them then anyone else. Insurances should not delay any project. It takes me about 3 days to get all the paperwork.

It is very important to choose all your finishes. The biggest cause for delays is indecision.

No architect required.You can go with contractor directly.
All you need is a good contractor.

www.renovationcostny.com

Thanks for all the thoughts here. Has anyone been through the process of stripping/restoring (not sure of the terminology) original moldings, paneling, cabinets, etc? Anyone in particular to recommend for this? TIA

'I'll tell you this: without a signed set of construction drawings detailing every single thing that is to be done, every finish, every detail, every hinge, you will encounter cost overruns and time delays'
.
.
.
.
.
.
TRUE THAT!!!!

Unless original mouldings are extraordinary, it is usually cheaper and/or easier to replicate or replace them. Stripping egg and dart mouldings and the like is a nightmare. And the effort to strip plane cove mouldings is absurd when compared to replacement costs. Panels and millwork may be another story and not so easily replaced.

The problem with no drawings for even a bathroom is that the devil is in the details. As soon as you tell the contractor you expected the floor tile and pattern to extend over the lip of the step in shower, the contractor tells you that is not what he understood in the estimate. Then you say you thought the price included dimming Lutron switches throughout; the contractor says he thought you were using $30 simple rocker switches and that dimmers of the type you want are $70 each. Then you say the doorknobs the contractor is using are $4 Home Depot cheap feeling dreck, but he says the one's you want cost 50 times more. And so it goes. There was never a clear meeting of the minds and the only way that gets resolved is with you paying more money to the contractor--a little more or a lot more, but more nonetheless.

Thanks kylewest - that all makes sense. Seems the biggest problem is that many issues like the ones you raised cannot even be predicted ahead of time...at least for someone who's doing it for the first time.

AVM: I disagree (respectfully, of course). I was a first-time gut-reno-er. I did have some familiarity with the process and a pretty strong sense of what I wanted, but what accounted for a successful job, imo, was the amount of thought and effort I was willing to put in BEFORE the job started. I visited hardware stores like Simons to find the knobs and hinges and bath accessories I wanted. I researched moulding styles and visited Dyke's to see them. I went to MKBC and other bath and kitchen showrooms to crystalize what I wanted in terms of details on cabinetry and get ideas. I spent time at Lighting By Gregory and on line to pick light fixtures ahead of time and researched with Consumer Reports and online about appliances. I spent time sitting in the apartment after going to contract and really picturing the space as I wanted it. I used masking tape on the floors to map out where furniture would go to see what fit, what needed tweaking and if walls actually had to be moved or if I really needed a closet or preferred the space it took up to be added to a room or vice verse. I walked through getting in and out of the shower while imagining the glass door and figuring out whether it should swing in or out (answer: both). I asked where would my towel be hung and reached after a shower. In the kitchen I used a tape measure to be sure that when the oven door was open I could still stand in front of the oven and if the dishwasher was in a good location relative to the sink.

All of these things you will have to decide before the reno is complete. You might as well do it up front, get in all written down and made part of the contract, and avoid the delays and cost overruns that result from dawdling and wringing your hands instead of making decisions up front.

What I didn't know I asked our architect for guidance. Same for when I felt lost in the weeds. But there is no reason not to have a clear vision at the beginning of a job versus developing it after a job has started. If you can just bite the bullet and begin now, it can be fun and not stressful. You will also stand a better chance of developing a realistic budget and sticking to it.

I know this sounds like a lot of work. It is. But putting it off doesn't make it go away. You still have to do it. So regardless of work commitments, time you need to devote to children, and all the other reasons you think you can't busy yourself with details now, you really must or you will (1) be disappointed with aspects of the finished product, (2) have time delays during the project, and/or (3) run into cost overruns and conflicts with the contractors.

That's what I was getting at (although it didn't come across that way). The process of developing plans forces you make the decisions upfront rather than confront surprises later. I'm coming around to your view anyway.

Bottom line -- Kyle, can you or anyone recommend a good architect? For my potential project I've had lengthy discussions with 3 possibilities who didn't work for different reasons:

- One was very busy and I sensed my job would not get enough attention
- For the second, I didn't think our styles/vision meshed and while I got one very good reference, I couldn't find additional convincing ones
- For the third (and this is the most disappointing), he was very responsive, and our vision meshed closely but I simply could not work with the guy. I would ask big-picture questions and he'd be fixated on some other point. I'd try to take measurements to verify square footage and I couldn't even get him to hold the other side of the measuring tape. I'd show him preliminary sketches fo what I was thinking, and he'd focus on only the negatives without proposing any better alternatives. He'd almost lecture on budgeting decisions.

Anyway, I was starting to the think I was the problem. Then my wife (who is particularly demanding) met the 3rd guy and she said had all the same issues/frustrations and said no-go. Seems like there must be professionals out there who can actually inspire you to move forward, rather than fill you with doubts about whether it's all worth it...??? So far I have only come across the former. The good news is despite reviewing 2 interesting projects, I haven't made offers on either yet, and have spent nothing more than a lot of my time...

Left out a word -- meant to say my wife is NOT all that demanding on certain things -- meaning here that she can work well with most people, which is what surprised me that all the same issues, even more so in fact.

Kyle if you are interested, here is the way I've been thinking about this in the early stages, let me know if maybe there's a better way of thinking about it:

1. Identify an apartment that is so appealing, in every way but condition, that it might be worth all the money/work of a gut-reno
2. Compare to other apartments that are already renovated
3. If it #1 stacks up well, try to form an initial, high-level vision for what I want
4. Speak to architect about what is broadly possible, including any potential structural limitations internally (electricity, plumbing, approvals, etc), and a *very broad* sense of budget
5. Depending on how quickly I think the apartment will sell, either (a) hire the architect to do initial drawings and initially bid them out to contractors; then (b) get to an accepted offer to buy it. Or vice versa if I think I need to move faster to buy it.
6. While moving from from offer, to contract, to close, keep working out and finalizing all the details on the kitchen, baths, finishes, etc. Finalize the drawings. Get more precise bids and choose a contractor.
7. Close and begin work.

How would you critique this way of thinking? What did you differently? Apologies if you feel this has already been explained.

I think the biggest issue is who you are hiring. I have worked with architects that do not spec out every item, they might have dimmer switches on the plan but they do not say which ones, same can go with base moldings and many other items. it is very few times where I am provided a list of everything that is needed. With that said it is my job to find out what I am pricing. I can't speak for everyone but these little issue seem petty to me. If I have to pay a little more for a dimmer thats more expensive, who cares? Thats probably just me though. Can you hire a designer or architect for a bathroom? Of course but if you do find a good contractor I would hope they can design your bathroom just as well.

My best advice to ANYONE is to buy everything yourself. That way you know exactly what it costs and exactly what you are paying for in labor. It may be a slight pain, but in the end, you get what you want and you pay contractors only for their time and labor. With the internet and accessibility to any and everything, there is no reason to rely on anyone else to buy anything you need for the apartment, other than the most basic work materials.

angel: I have to disagree. "Everything" is a lot of stuff and you will have no idea what you are doing on much of it. Plus you really need a lot of TIME to invest beyond the oodles of time it already takes. Being there to inspect deliveries before they are signed for is a real pain in the butt since many deliveries are delayed or need rescheduling, etc. When that toilet arrives, you damn well better inspect it before signing for it. And what happens later when it is chipped and the GC says it was like that when he opened it so you must have chipped it while inspecting it. You say he did it. Result: bad relationship. Solution? Let the GC order, take deliver, inspect and be 100% responsible for errors and damages.

Ever try to order all the correct parts for a thermostatic shower system? You'll can easily miss a piece. Do that, and then the plumber can't do his job and has to be paid to return to finish. Savings you thought you had evaporate and actually you end up spending more. Or say the refrigerator you ordered comes (after a no-show delivery the day you took off from work and two more rescheduled delivery dates) and you sign but later see a panel is dented and parts are missing from the ice maker unit. You will then spend about 50-100 phone calls (I am not exaggerating) back and forth with the supplier, and want to kill someone (possibly yourself) before it is ultimately resolved 2-4 weeks later. Had the GC been responsible this headache would be his. And what are you going to do with mouldings? Order those yourself too? And then arrange for the GC to go get delivery. What is he supposed to charge to be a courrier for your orders? Do you save much?

This kind of thing goes on and on. I ordered my own light fixtures (not recessed lights though) and that went fine. I ordered my own appliances and I deeply regret it after aggravation for damage to one of them. Many items arrived with issues and I was grateful the GC has to take responsibility and not me. Next time, I would maybe order lights again on my own but that is it. Just not worth it to me.

>and want to kill someone (possibly yourself)

Get help.

Kyle is 100% correct again. I really do not want my clients going out and buying things without going over everything first. Nobody asks the buyer what is the rough of the toilet and next thing I know we are delayed waiting for the right one to come.

Besides the fact, my clients save money as I pass along the discounts I get. There is no reason what so ever to purchase yourself.

Those shower bodies are hard to figure out! Especially the fancy ones like Hansgrohe.

I'll admit to having ordered almost everything myself (plumbing fixtures, floors, moldings, etc). Partly to save $ (though the savings were minimal) - mainly to educate myself. In my experience, it didn't hold up the subs any more than if the contractor had ordered.

NYC10023,

You were a lucky one. If you go to the right plumbing store, af supply, Simons, Davis and Warshow that you have a chance. If you go to Home Depot for a shower body you might be in trouble. Its also not just plumbing, what about lights, most people don't know what lights they can or should buy. Something simple like door handles, left or right or even door swings for that matter could be problematic. I can't tell you how many designers wanted me to install 12 x 24 tiles on a shower floor, if they don't know you shouldn't why would a first time client

My life would be 10 times easier if my clients could go buy everything and I just install it but that is not the case.

Yeah, I got lucky. Got all the plumbing fixtures online - that was a mistake as the first online vendors were crooks. Bought all the doors (prehung) & door knobs as well. Swings don't matter for passage knobs. Tiles I picked but the contractor ordered.

Subbed out all the countertops myself.

We can all agree to disagree, but I stand by my position that in 2011 with literally, virtually everything being online for purchase and googleable, the smartest thing people can do is purchase materials themselves. I purchased my shower bodies online (the new Hansgrohe universal ibox valve) and thermostatic trim and nearly ALL of the sites that sell them tell you exactly what you need.I knew NOTHING about shower bodies before starting and learned on the way, and it's really NOT that complicated. Other smaller fittings are typically provided by the plumber and are not necessary to purchase nor hold anything up.

Almost all of the plumbers told me directly that it's cheaper for me to do it that way and I should. So I did rather than accept their markup. You can also call any of the numerous local plumbing supplies stores in the city and they will walk you through all of it.

Yes, there are things that clients don't know about, but IMO, unless people have money to spare, anyone who actually cares about budget and what every $ is going to should educate themselves and LEARN this when they start the renovation process.When I had a plumbing question, I turned to Terrylove.com . When I had a design quandry I turned to gardenweb.com and their forums. When I wanted inspiration I spent hours on Houzz.com . Got a tile question, go to JohnBridge.com.

Plumbing/bath/lighting fixtures - Faucetsdirect.com, HomePerfect.com (this one is local in NYC, stuff will usually arrive next day AND has the lowest prices on nearly everything), Efaucets.com, Wayfair.com, Restorationhardware.com .....

Tile: Natural Stone : stonelocaters.com (best pricing 3-4 day delivery time) , rockbottomtileandstone.com (best pricing 4-5 day delivery time), Daltile.com ...Porcelain, Ceramic etc tileshop.com Mosaics: modwalls.com Local NYC stores: Nemo tile, Bella Tile, ClassictileNY, Completetile.com (one of my faves but $$$$)

Countertops: Marble.com is a great starting point, best pricing and you can go to their slab yard and choose exactly which slab you want.

I could go on and on and on but the days in which people need/should rely on contractors to order for them are IMO, long past. Yes, there are the clients that have no time, patience or inclination for this kind of thing and can afford to hire a G.C./interior designer etc just have it all taken care of, but I would venture to say that if someone took the time to find this website and post here, they are already more proactive, and given the tools could become much more self-reliant in the renovation process.

Again, this is not referring to structural changes like knocking down,moving walls, expanding rooms, re-designing kitchen layouts... those are things that are best left to the pro's. Yes mistakes can be made, and people can order the wrong door handle, but they can also ask their contractor,"Which door handle do I need, right or left? Which lights do I need, what are my options?" etc. and then make the purchase themselves armed with the correct info.

Please don't get me wrong either, I have TONS of respect for G.C's and what they do. It's a HUGE headache to undergo a renovation without one, OR to not be able to leave everything to them but I also think that the cost of using MANY of the "Pro's" in NYC is outrageous and just no longer wholly necessary.

P.S. I have always heard about contractor discounts and the benefit of that but nearly everyone I know who has done a reno in the last five years said that every price the contractor quoted was beaten by an online price and I know personally, every contractor I spoke to didn't even suggest they could get a better price than I could directly. I wish they could as that would make things much easier!

Angel,

I appreciate what you are saying and in some aspects you are right. Making purchases on the internet are usually cheaper then buying them in a store. However, what I fear is when something goes wrong. I f you do purchase tile from an internet company and it comes in incorrect what do you do? How long does it take to fix the problem? Ordering tiles online could be difficult as you don't see what the tile really looks like. Don't get me wrong, it would be a lot easier for me not to go to Nemo tile and Af Supply on a regular basis.

I was just hired by client last week because they hired a G.C. who didn't help them at all and everything they were buying was wrong. People not in the business do not no which recessed light to buy (There is a different housing for new construction and remodel)and they shouldn't know, its not their job. I would rather be in my office writing up invoices but it helps everyone in the process if I go and make the purchases. This is a lot different then a designer, I do offer my opinions as far as design but thats not what I am paid for. Therefore I DO NOT MARK UP purchases. In fact I give my clients my discounts.

That does not mean you can't find something cheaper somewhere else. The plumbing for example after my discount usually is what you can buy from Home Depot but I get better service for the same price, its not bad. I probably get around 20-30% off Nemo tile, if there is a problem I get it taken care of immediately. Simons Hardware 20-30% off isnt bad either. Appliances, In my 15 years only one person was able to get cheaper prices then me.

My point is this: Renovations in general are very stressful adding to that stress by ordering yourself does not make sense to me. I think everyone, if they have time should do some research so they have an idea what things cost but it is a verity big task to order everything yourself.

I have to bring this up because it is happening as I write this. My client has a very small bathroom. He found this sink that he wanted me to buy

onlinehttp://www.fixtureuniverse.com/pedestal-sinks/american-standard-0780800-town-square-pedestal-sink_g119569.html?isku=437162&linkloc=cataLogProductItemsImage

I called Smolka plumbing and asked for a price and to confirm size. On the website it says it come 21" in width. We have 22" so that is great, except I found out that this does not come in 21" only 27". If my client purchased it would he be able to return it? How long will it take to find a new one? Not good

In order to see that it comes in "21" select white and the sizes pop up

this is an interesting example. it's referred to as a square sink with different dimensions for width and length. why couldn't an individual ordering make the same call you did?

i'm not suggesting that there is a right way or a wrong way. some people are inclined to do this kind of thing for themselves and have an understanding of what's involved---others don't. the problem arises i think when a person doesn't understand their own abilities.

the contractors that i've worked with welcomed my involvement and i always invited their opinion of my choices. we both ended up learning something from the experience

Columbia,

100% agree. An individual could make the same call I did but what if they did know enough to do so and just ordered it. I welcome all my clients involvement but I want to do all the ordering so we do not have this problem

My problem is when kyle makes it seem like the key to success is the perfect drawings, etc. First of all, i don't think there is a single key to success. being the kind of person who understands working with others certainly helps. also, understanding that everyone can and will make a mistake from time to time and being willing to give a little to get a little (on both sides) helps. to me, pointing to the drawings and pounding the table is a lot like pulling out a contract in any business deal and pounding the table.

Speaking as someone who once GC'd her own bathroom renovation (when I was in my 20s, and making squat, and really needed to save the money) I would say that it generally does NOT make sense to try to skip the GC. You're not saving enough $$, percentage-wise, to make up for skipping their expertise in the market.

It isn't that your contractor gets cheaper prices than you, it's that his embedded knowledge about how Material 1 is going to perform vs. Material 2 is worth paying for.

angel it sounds like you did a great job, but you're the exception, not the rule.

ali r.
DG Neary Realty

>First of all, i don't think there is a single key to success.
Amusing

>being the kind of person who understands working with others certainly helps.
Hilarious

>also, understanding that everyone can and will make a mistake from time to time and being willing to give a little to get a little (on both sides) helps.
Hysterical

>
to me, pointing to the drawings and pounding the table is a lot like pulling out a contract in any business deal and pounding the table.

One can only imagine your reaction when you visited the apartment with the horrible window in the shower.

Be VERY careful shopping online. When I bought my Duravit fixtures, the vendor I picked was www.homeannex.com because they had good prices AND no negative reviews AND were based in Brooklyn (good yelling distance). But the fixtures never came, some ridiculous back order story which could not be substantiated when I called the mfr directly. In short, crooks. I paid by credit card and got a refund after being on hold for 2 hours.

For my 2nd reno, I bought a lot of stuff from toohome.com. Fine at the time, but went bankrupt and ended up owing a lot of inventory to angry customers.

Maybe I'm too young, new school, pro-active, but I just think NYC renovation prices are so incredibly, outrageously out of line in comparison to many other states, that people would do well to take more control over things themselves and realize that with a bit of extra work on their own behalf, they CAN have a lot of the things done they want in a more tolerable budget. The spread between what the 4 G.C's we were recommended quoted and what we paid forgoing a G.C. was 25K on the lo end. That's a big savings to me, maybe not to others. And we had NO issues with online vendors whom we purchased every single toilet, appliance, fixture, tile from. Tile is the one thing I absolutely do NOT suggest buying online unless necessary,and we only did because we wanted some specialized natural stone that all NY vendors said would take them 2 weeks to get vs going direct to the importers,but for everything else, we used the websites stated above and had excellent experiences. I have a rule of thumb that for ANY online purchase of importance, I follow up directly with the vendor within 24 hours.

Again, I am not advocating this is the way for EVERYONE to go, but I will stand on solid ground that for people who are NOT wealthy, who are budget conscious, who have time, it is a very very reasonable option and for everyone who says "I had a horrible experience with this vendor" there are going to be 2 people who had a great one with another. The premium G.C.'s are tagging on in NYC is just outrageous to me personally. That's just my opinion. I'm entitled to it. And I mean it as no disrespect. But having grown up in NYC and leaving for 7 years to travel extensively and live outside of the city, coming back now I have a more clear understanding of the insanity of what goes on in NY and I just don't want to, nor feel it necessary to play ball.

Angel,

Can I ask how big of a project that you are talking about? Was it just a bathroom or something bigger? Did you have a GC do the work or did you GC the project yourself?

^^ P.S. What I am and have advocated isn't people going "half cocked" buying toilets and shower bodies kitchen cabinets blind. Again, we are discussing people who come to SE who are already more proactive and willing to seek out information. Our maintenance guy installed all of our toilets/vanities and the first thing he told me was "Make sure the toilets have a 12inch rough in". It's NOT that complicated and doesn't require a G.C. to tell you. Sometimes I think G.C's or Plumbers etc want to make things seem so much more mysterious than they are so they can again, charge a premium for their knowledge. Google is your friend. Terrylove.com is your friend. Johnbridge.com is your friend. Gardenweb.com forums are you friend. Your maintenance man or super is your friend. And even when people DO hire G.C.'s they should STILL be going on those websites and learning everything they can to fully understand exactly what they need/want/can do and reduce misunderstandings.

@ AVM - I would recommend meeting with Jan from Euro Tile Remodeling. He is a contractor and not an architect, but has a very good eye, will not dissuade you from anything or be negative, has good idea's and does EXCELLENT work. I think his website is http://www.eurotileremodeling.com/

For paint and flooring- Fernandez Floors http://www.fernandezfloorsinc.com/ did both for us and was by far the best priced and work was excellent. The pulled up 1400 sq feet of our parquet and laid new strand bamboo floor for $3.00 a sq ft total. Ask for Rosie, she's a doll.

This thread is filled with worst case scenario's and yes, those things can happen. But G.C's can also give people MANY issues as well, and are not immune to problems. I have 2 friends alone who in the last 6 months had nightmares with their G.G's and ended up switching mid way through. We can all poo poo and say "Don't do this, this HORRIBLE thing happened I wouldn't do that" OR............ we can say, Here are your MYRIAD of choices, this is what is possible, what can and has been done, here are the risks, here are the rewards, make the decision that's best for you.

It's like everyone here on SE who told me emphatically that they were SURE that I HAD to change all the plumbing back to the risers as a condition of doing any wall open renovations in our bathrooms. WRONG. We did NOT and moreover, it was not necessary, yet had we believed 100% of people on SE, we would have allowed our Management Co to make us think we were obligated to do it at the cost of $$$$$. Everyone on SE was wrong, and our Management Co was full of crap and when forced to offer proof could not.

I LOVE this forum and as a newbie again, mean NO disrespect to anyone and have come to respect most here and the advice given. I do however, just wish that sometimes there were more diverse opinions from a larger group of people who may have different, yet valuable experiences and advice to offer.

Angel,

I can appreciate what you are saying but not everyone has the time to do all the research. I could make my own furniture but i do not have time. I think a lot has to do with quality of work as well (I am not saying yours is not hi-end) but i would be a little wary of hiring my floor guy to do my painting. In 95% of the building i work in I MUST bring the branch lines back to the riser. I don't want to but it is in most alteration agreements. You did not need to use a licensed plumber for your bathroom? Didn't your building require that?

and not everyone has the kind of money required to hire a guy like you and do high end renovations. the point is that many posters strongly imply or openly state that there is only one way to proceed. clearly that is not true. some people succeed on their own, some succeed with a contractor and yet others have miserable stories going both either route.

Primer,
1.I realize you are a General Contractor and it's in your interest to advocate for the need. I also think the analogy of making your own furniture to hiring your own contractors is a bit ridiculous. I never told people to physically do their own renovations. I'm not saying "Paint your own walls, lay your own floors." Which is what you are trying to equate it to.Come on.

Where did you get the idea that the same people who are painting are flooring?It's a company that has BOTH people who specialize in painting, and people who specialize in wood flooring AND people who specialize in tile flooring. So the same people who paint DO NOT do flooring and moreover, the same guys who do wood installation, do not do the tile. They are all different workers. I have just used them and was very very happy with the result and I am extremely picky. Therefore, I have recommended them. But you who know nothing about the company or result, are wary of them? Weird.

2. We did only hi-end renovations, our building is a luxury hi-rise in the Lincoln Center area.

4. 2 of the G.C.'s we interviewed told us that unequivocally our building required replacing branch lines back to risers. They were wrong. I am simply advising ALL New Yorkers who undergo this process to demand to see the mandate for that extensive plumbing in black and white in either the by-laws or alteration agreement. If it's not there, it's NOT mandated. For pre-war apartments I am sure it may be more necessary, but for those who have pipes that are not 100 years old and are in very good condition with no leaks or damage it's a decision THEY should make and not be forced on them and the bottom line is Unit Owners need to make sure they don't just assume or allow their G.C's to assume. I think the 95% applies because the majority of those buildings were Pre-War. I am sure that stat is much lower when dealing with Post-Wars.

What CC said. Even if you hire a GC with impeccable references, have perfect drawings, things can still happen. Maybe at a lower rate than if you didn't hire a GC, but you're also paying for that insurance. I subbed out various parts of our last major reno because I needed to cut costs. Yes, my GC charged me a little extra because he felt that the subs held him up but the cost savings were still tremendous (we're talking 75% savings on millwork and flooring). And for some aspects of the millwork that our GC did, there were some huge delays because the specialists he called in couldn't show up on time (yes, I could have written this in the K but that would have cost me extra $).

I don't feel comfortable subbing out major demolition and structural work. I'm getting more comfortable with the idea of subbing out plumbing and electrical simply because my GC's subs didn't impress me that much. And I have a strong technical background so I can wade through johnbridge, terrylove, gardenweb, ikeafans, etc.

Agreed NYC10023 :) I wouldn't suggest going the non G.C. route for major demo and structural work. But I think for less intensive, complicated straightforward remodeling work, there are many ways to go about it without the need for a G.C. which for some people is a nice cost savings.

Btw, u are in my zipcode :)

You probably know me.

Wouldn't that be funny!

Angel,

I am trying to explain that taking on a task of purchasing finishes on your own is very risky. I got the idea that the floor people were painting from your comment "for paint and flooring Fernandez floors did both for us" in my experience when trades venture into other areas of specialty there usually is a reason. That might not be in their case.I think it is great that you had the time to order everything correctly and to gc your own project. Many cannot but that doesn't mean the client will pay more money for finish material. Not every contractor marks up materials.

I do agree that some projects do not need a gc at all.

look...we all get it that you need to make a living.

so do we all.

just stop posting the absolutes.

there are plenty of people who are happy to use your services. and, get value from them.

just, not everyone.

>
columbiacounty
17 minutes ago
ignore this person
report abuse
look...we all get it that you need to make a living.
so do we all.

Thought you retired in shame about 20 years ago?

you made this up. just like you make everything up.

enjoy.

Yes, I made EVERYTHING up, like columbiacounty.

Primer, we agree more than we disagree, that's for sure. And as G.C's go, you seem at least from my vantage point, very easy going, patient and helpful, and I hope your around in a few years when I WILL do some demo/structural stuff and will be in need of someone like you :)

*you're ......... I hate mistypes!

Angel,

I truly hope I am retired in a few years but if not i would be happy to help

I have read most of the comments, and I agree with a lot of the reasoning. It makes perfect sense because there is no way to directly examine the corollary between the use of an architect and the trust of a G.C.

Being both an architect, and a Licensed G.C. it has been a real eye opener doing both and acting as both. Here's what I know from the last thirty years: If you can afford a G.C., you can definitely afford an architect. Architect's fees are less than 6-7% of project cost. Architects who administer the contract for construction generally save the client at least 10-15%. After all, the architect's job is essentially a scribe. By taking into account all things from budget, to final cost it is he who defines the project. In this way, the architect prepares the plans from which a bid is procured. Without an observer or architect of record, bids may not be obtained. When bids are sought, prices range greatly, scope of work is confused. The homeowner is left to field all of the sales pitches (including scare tactics.)

Without a definitive set of instructions all bids are virtually invalid.

So, contrary to what all of you have said here, it's imperative to use an architect. Contrary to public opinion, architects will save time and money. Don't ever let your contractor tell you what to bid on, even if you think you can be an architect yourself. The architect serves an indispensable role in the construction sequence.

It's really too bad that you can't do two projects that are identical side-by-side to benefit from my experience and see this in action for yourself!

Thanks,

Bob
www.arcbiz.org